SpicedCider
Well-known member
Would you happen to have another tub of "old" Craze you can sell/trade for?
DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action
- Thread starter heavyd12
- Start date
- Status
Would you happen to have another tub of "old" Craze you can sell/trade for?
Ceredumbellum
Member
I have two unopened tubs, lot #'s 1202486. Exp. 02/15. I'd much rather trade for something else unopened and intact than do a $ transaction. For what, I'm not quite sure.... but I'm open to ideas/suggestions. Same offer goes for hardknock. If either of you have the old-school versions of Ergolean and/or Ergolean AMP2 that would be very enticing... but not the new crap with N-MethylTyramine (after PA sold ErgoPharm and they ****ed the formula). If you guys wanna PM me we can talk turkey.
Ceredumbellum
Member
PA, I was hoping we could talk hypothetical and off-topic for a minute. This Craze nonsense is wearing me out.
So completely off-topic of Craze for a moment.... Let's say, theoretically speaking of course, that one were to order a batch of N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine online. If one were to ingest said chemical could one expect numbeness to be a primary or side-effect of ingestion? This is all hypothetical and probably just gibberish from a no-nothing like myself, but that just happened to cross my mind when I was thinking about everything non-Craze related and it peaked my curiosity.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
that chemical has a pretty strong anesthetic effect yes. a little bit makes tongue go numb
blackjackcat
Member
I see what you did there......
epstaneman
Banned
Ya....it's called 'effective ingredients'......most supplements don't even work and when one does....everyone jumps on it like a touchy uncle. WRONG I TELL YOU!
Just be happy with happy people!
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
someone posted something insinuating that i made up the hush letter DS sent me. It was posted on bb.com where i am banned.
Post #170 Invalid Link Removed
I need help. Can someone post the attached letter in response to that guys post on bb.com for me?
Post #170 Invalid Link Removed
I need help. Can someone post the attached letter in response to that guys post on bb.com for me?
Afi140
Legend
someone did it
Ceredumbellum
Member
Ya....it's called 'effective ingredients'......most supplements don't even work and when one does....everyone jumps on it like a touchy uncle. WRONG I TELL YOU!
Just be happy with happy people!
"Effective Ingredients"? That's fine and dandy, but when these "effective ingredients" are not listed in the proprietery blend and have little to no scientific data backing them that becomes a bit worriesome. Aren't you worried about the possibility of negative side effects resulting from the ingestion of ingredients that have few, if any, human research trials? As far as I know the jury is still out on long-term effects of N,N Diethyl-B-Phenlyethlamine and N-Benzyl-2-Pheneylethylamine, not to mention short term effects. A million questions come to mind a few of which are:
Are these ingredients legal, illegal or do they fall within the infamous "grey market" status?
Are these ingredients neurotoxic?
Why is there an extreme, prolonged high followed by an equally extreme and prolonged crash/ come-down?
Is the anesthetic effect detremental to one's health?
I've got a bunch more but it sure would be nice to find out exactly what was in the original Craze (it's blatantly obvious they have changed their formula). Hell, I have an old, unopened tub that I would be willing to send, free of charge to test, to a reputable chemist who has no affiliation with DS. If there's any takers out there let me know (and please don't try to con me just to get a free tub of the old-school Craze). PM me if that would make you feel more comfortable about setting it up. Obviously the chain of custody wouldn't hold up in a court of law, but I'm not really worried about that. This tub is sealed and hasn't been tampered with. It was ordered from BB.com. I just want to know what in the hell I was taking almost every day for two months and would like to find out if it did/ could cause detramential side effects. I'm not looking to "go public" with the results or throw said chemist under the bus.... I'm very discreet. I just want to know what's in it.
Docmattic
Well-known member
Going back to my earlier posts I can tell if the formula has been changed, ive clearly still got three tubs of the 'good' craze (dont ask me to sell it BTW). I had two scoops with Acetyl Carnatine yesterday....I had a really good day: I felt completely buzzed (i had this fantastic aura) , my mind was going at a million miles per hour and i had a great sense of wellbeing. Unfortunately I crashed pretty hard after about 7 hours.
However normally i only take one scoop and dont experience a crash.
I'd be really interested to see what is actually in it. If it’s what is stated - good on craze. If its not, I’ll be disappointed in the company as its not good to purposefully lie to consumers. However, I'd still like to thank DS for the good buzz. Whether we ever find out is anyone’s guess.
However normally i only take one scoop and dont experience a crash.
I'd be really interested to see what is actually in it. If it’s what is stated - good on craze. If its not, I’ll be disappointed in the company as its not good to purposefully lie to consumers. However, I'd still like to thank DS for the good buzz. Whether we ever find out is anyone’s guess.
Melo7
New member
Things just got real....
hardknock
Well-known member
The whole crashing action never really bothered me at all to be honest. What I mean is that usually when I take any stimulant it is normally 6-8 hours before bed, so when it does wear off i am usually headed to bed anyway.
theniteman
Active member
That court case in the documents posted above is happening in my hometown. Awesome.
Anyways, I cant feel any noticeable differences in both batches of Craze. I bought some when it first came out and some way after all this lawsuit stuff came about. Both seemed equally effective. Then again, I only use it once or twice a week.
Anyways, I cant feel any noticeable differences in both batches of Craze. I bought some when it first came out and some way after all this lawsuit stuff came about. Both seemed equally effective. Then again, I only use it once or twice a week.
1 More Repp
Member
I absolutely feel the difference between the two tubs I have gone through. Wow I thought it was just me building a tolerance or something. Looks like I'm not the only one!! GREAT workouts with the Og version and the recent berry lemonade tub I got was just not the same...
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
people need to be referencing exact lot numbers. buying something from store or e-store can result in one getting an old lot or a new lot sometimes
theniteman
Active member
Patrick Arnold said:
True. I will check the lot numbers of my empty containers if they havent already been thrown away. Pretty sure I got some from the first few runs (pre-order when it first came out) and a new lot cuz its the new flavor. Actual lots #'s would better validate this tho.
D3Baseball
Member
The conversation is extremely interesting, but the power of placebo might be too powerful to gain anything definitive from this.
Ceredumbellum
Member
Question for PA:
Would it be illegal for an individual or company to make a designer PEA and throw it in a dietary supplement if the PEA were not a scheduled drug or something that is considered an Amphetamine Analogue? I know you're not a lawyer but you've been in this industry for a long time so I figured you could offer some insight there. And if it's not illegal to do so why wouldn't companies be designing new PEA's left and right to throw in their thermogenic blends? Just curious.
Would it be illegal for an individual or company to make a designer PEA and throw it in a dietary supplement if the PEA were not a scheduled drug or something that is considered an Amphetamine Analogue? I know you're not a lawyer but you've been in this industry for a long time so I figured you could offer some insight there. And if it's not illegal to do so why wouldn't companies be designing new PEA's left and right to throw in their thermogenic blends? Just curious.
redms
Member
The grape I used had lot number 1201378 expiry 01/15. The new crazolade was1205097 expiry 05/15. There is a difference between the ingredient labels being creatine first on the crazolade and the grape having Trmethylglycine (betaine Anhydrous) first. Serving size is different also, crazolade is one heaping scoop (5.8 grams) and the grape 1 scoop (5.3 grams). I have two tubs left of the grape with the same lot numbers and will be giving it a go later in the month to find out if the new berry is different to the old grape or I have built up a tolerance to it. I have just come off the berry a couple of weeks back that's why I'm having the break as I always cycle my pre workouts.
mw1
Sponsor
hardknock
Well-known member
Placebo would not make a person's tongue go numb though.
Also, tolerance build up is probable but ive never noticed that from whiteflood. It alwaystreated me the same. Though, thus far, i have yet to have these effects from craze as most speak of.
epstaneman
Banned
White flood didn't do SH*T for me. Tasted nasty AND most importantly....didn't give me no energy. No focus. Just nauseousness about 40 minutes later. I have a pretty high tollerance to stimulants. Not even Jack3d does anything for me.
CRAZE is the only thing that has worked for me AND doesn't give me an upset stomach. Launch 4350 is good too but not as intense as craze. F'n awesome flavor though.
Ceredumbellum
Member
Different strokes for different folks I guess... I found White Flood to be extremely intense in the stimulant department, albeit not a good, "euphoric" type intensity. The first time I used it I looked at the ingredient panel, looked at the tiny scoops and said, "Ah, ****, there's no way 1-2 scoops of this will do anything for me." Boy was I mistaken! I proceeded to take four heaping scoops and then started in on leg day.... Needless to say it was a huge mistake. I felt cracked out and thought I was going to have a freaking coronary every time I did a set of squats. It took me a couple of minutes to get my heart rate down and catch my breath after each set. My workout partner told me later I was scaring the **** out of him and thought he was going to end up calling 911 before the end of the workout.
With all that said I waited a week and dialed it back to 1 1/2 scoops and had a very good workout. I like the fact it has no creatine for seasons I avoid it and, unlike most, I find the lemon flavor to be pretty tasty. It's definately not the best PWO supplement out there but it's good and is hard to beat if you want a PWO that doesn't contain creatine.
hardknock
Well-known member
Hmmm, definitely different strokes because both grape and berry craze versions did little to nothing for me at all(1, 1.5, 2 scoops). Even mixing 1.5 scoops craze and 1scoop of ASGT did very little. I just felt more relaxed and focused than anything. I sort of felt like hugging people???
White-flood gave me enormous energy at 2.5 scoops, nothing much at 1 or 1.5 scoops. Jacked, to me, was in between the 2. On white i set PRs left and right, on the rest not so much. Felt bad assssed??? While using the rest, not at all alpha.
On white, I flurted with every girl walking (not good as I am married) on Jacked or craze, not so much...on white i talked tons of "shyt" to everyone...meaning, just shooting the breeze continuously with the guys, using everything else, not so much or at all.
On white, I was a card playing machine and much better at it while being totally interested, (poker, spades), chess playing machine as well, using the rest...I was still as good but very disinterested.
hardknock
Well-known member
I was in a rush one day and I scooped out of the wrong container of WF. I scooped out of an old tub. I was late for work and I use WF to get me through a tough day sometimes. Needless to say it almost wrecked me that day. I felt jittery and out of control for about 30 mins. My heart was racing so fast that I was feeling extremely faint. I called and said that I would be late for work because I had to pull over at a gas station. I got out and started walking around just walking back and forth and acting as if I was checking under my hood (so no people would freak out). I remember trying to lift the hood on my truck and it felt like it weighed of 80lb dumb bells..hands were sweaty and shaking....my forehead was on fire.
After about 30-45 mins it started to feel normal again...I have no idea what happened. Maybe it was too old? I think it was well over 2 years old and opened?
I tossed it when I got back home. The next day I opened a new batch, tried it, and it didn't affect me the same as the old tub did.
epstaneman
Banned
To be honest ....even the effect I have with CRAZE has diminished since my first use. Nothing was like the first time I tried it. All in all ......ALL pre workouts I try eventually do nothing for me. Even at full dose. Craze and Launch are the only 2 that so far still give me energy. Even if its not as much as when I first started it. I tried white flood, ripped freak, jack3d and they all didn't do SH*T for me. So when it comes to me...I'm not spending any of my money on those products. Animal rage worked for me too but gave me heart burn. Pre workouts just don't agree with me and I've just about gave up on em all together.
Usually I'll pop an ephedrine with a pre workout and that'll do the trick.
Usually I'll pop an ephedrine with a pre workout and that'll do the trick.
Ceredumbellum
Member
Hardknock, it's funny you mention cards. I head to the local casino here in Kansas City to play poker whenever I can get away from work. It's a passion of mine and one of my favorite pastimes. I "experimented" with different combinations of supplements and prescription medications to find that "zone" every poker player strives to be in. I've experienced it from time-to-time, but almost never get there every session. I found that a combination of "Nootropics" and plain GABA, along with Dexedrine (prescribed for my LEGITIMATE ADD) took my poker game to another level. If I had to make an educated guess I'd say the nootropics in White Flood help with focus and information retention and the regular (not Benzo's or the like) GABA takes away the urge to "gamble" and allows you to make the right decisions at the right time. I could be wrong, but it seems plausible. The reason I say no Benzo's is because, from my experience, they make you much more uninhibited and give you a dispostion of "not caring", leading to poor decisions. Just my two cents.
Ceredumbellum
Member
Interesting. I nearly OD'd on a new lot of WF because I took too much and it seems you, too, had an adverse reaction to an older lot at the proper dose. It'd be interesting to know what mechanism caused your negative reaction or if it was the degredation over time of a specific ingredient(s) that caused it to happen.
Ceredumbellum
Member
I've tried all of the PWO supplements you mentioned and if there is one that I believe is IMPERATIVE to cycle it's Craze. Most of us gym rats and bodybuilders only cycle one thing (and even some don't do that), but with Craze I found that a 3-days-on/ 2-days-off cycle worked great. On the Craze "off days" I used a variety of different PWO supplements, all with DMAA. I don't know if it has to do with all of the different PEA's in it or what, but I plateaued on Craze very quickly. I've since stopped using it altogether because of the horrible crashes I experienced and the (allegedly) possible unlabeled ingredients in it, but from my experience if you cycle it and don't take it every day you can expect to get keep the original benefits you experienced for a much greater length of time. Just my two cents.
hardknock
Well-known member
I cannot say but I do remember that it was very grainy to drink whereas newer tubs dissolve several times better. This had hard grains still in it after shaking vigorously. I also remember feeling like my intestines were being ripped open, like severe gas from eating to much green foods and protein drinks. However, it wasn't gas, it was just rumbling and cramping. Some of it seem to pass during my bathroom sessions because there were little "rocks" of supplements that revealed themselves in the toilet...So, I chalked it up to just an old batch that had degraded something awful.
baldymcgee
Member
dragon_
New member
wtf
Craze works for me. But as a newbie to bodybuilding with just two years of consistenet training under my belt, and having read some history of steroids and PH's I have to admit that I find it somewhat ironic to see a person with the same name as the "governator" on the attack of this particular PW supplement. But hey, I'm new here... so what do I know? Ill shut up and keep following this rediculous fiasco of a lawsuit.
Craze works for me. But as a newbie to bodybuilding with just two years of consistenet training under my belt, and having read some history of steroids and PH's I have to admit that I find it somewhat ironic to see a person with the same name as the "governator" on the attack of this particular PW supplement. But hey, I'm new here... so what do I know? Ill shut up and keep following this rediculous fiasco of a lawsuit.
hardknock
Well-known member
I responded to that over there...doesn't explain why if a person takes the supposed OLD tub EOD and the supposed new tub EOD for 2 months then continuously experiences definite differences. It is not a question of how much different tub A is when I take it for 7 days straight, or 1 day on 1 day off or take it for 3 months straight.
It is a factor of how much a difference tub A is from tub B regardless of frequency of use.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
placebo doesnt really work well in the reverse direction. And i dont think most people commenting here are taking the stuff while telling themselves "it wont work, i just am convinced it wont work!"
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
of course it would be illegal under FDA laws because it would not qualify as a nutritional supplement. And even more illegal if not listed on the label
and, companies are designing such things regardless
KenTheEagle
Active member
Patrick, what is your position regarding the FDA laws?, are you in favor or against?... IMO they are gettin crazy, before they took action everything was great, the supplement industry has been active for a lot of years and we havent seen any problems, this sudden "action" of the FDA playing "the hero' role smells weird. i wonder what the FDA real interests are, BTW im about to read your article regarding UGL's substances being harmful... ive seen positive reviews about it... and it scares me that UGL would be our only path, FDA needs to chill and evolve, taking action on non existent problems is a waste and put us on greater risks... they cant stop us athletes from living our dream. so better leave safer alternative for us, instead of banning... JMO
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
FDA laws are alot more lenient in the USA than other first world countries. And in fact they are alot more lenient regarding supplements then they were prior to 1994
It is more shocking that they didnt take action against synthetic compounds being sold as supplements earlier than they did
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
Daycrawler
Well-known member
This. Taking Regulations the FDA law class right now, and one of the (3) teachers is a former director over 'Medical Devices.' Just hearing about the # of products, plus how long investigations take etc...
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
Thought I would chime in. Iwas a big believer that somethin was fishy with CRAZE. I had one of the first lots of CRAZE that I went through in February. I never experienced the numb toungue but I also never took more than a scoop. I did have that great, different energy that I lot of people speak of. Not quite addy like, but definitely not like caffiene or 1,3. I finished that tub by March and have not used a tub since. Recently my buddy gave me the remainder of his old grape craze (TMG listed first on ingredients.) I took it for the first time in months last week and got the same effects.
Just recently I received a tub of the Crazolade flavor. I tried a scoop and a half just out of curiousity this morning and expected not to feel much based on what everyone has been saying about it being weaker. Now im not sure what to think. I got a massive amount of energy. I am completely wired as of writing this. However, in my opinion, I want to say I feel slightly more cracked out than usual but I also took 1/2 a scoop more than I do with grape (adjusted for DS stating that there is more flavoring in Crazolade thus requiring a bigger serving for the same effect.) Going to alternate between this and the old tub to see if the stim feeling is the same or different. Either way, this Crazolade is great stuff as well.
Just recently I received a tub of the Crazolade flavor. I tried a scoop and a half just out of curiousity this morning and expected not to feel much based on what everyone has been saying about it being weaker. Now im not sure what to think. I got a massive amount of energy. I am completely wired as of writing this. However, in my opinion, I want to say I feel slightly more cracked out than usual but I also took 1/2 a scoop more than I do with grape (adjusted for DS stating that there is more flavoring in Crazolade thus requiring a bigger serving for the same effect.) Going to alternate between this and the old tub to see if the stim feeling is the same or different. Either way, this Crazolade is great stuff as well.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
i would pay attention to lot numbers if you want to figure out if there is something going on, not flavoring
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
Have the lot number as well just not with me and I do not remember them off of the top of my head. I will try to post them up later
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
Lot # for my Crazolade is 1205098 ex 05/15 and it is definitely the good stuff. The grape lot # I dont have on me but it was one of the older lots purchased in January with TMG still listed as the first ingredient
hardknock
Well-known member
Well, i finally got to try an original version purchased last december. It was sealed from the guy which sent it to me.
The original did not make my tongue go numb but it deaded the back of my throat. Made my throat feel swollen and thick. Focus was definitely there but it wasnt the same energy. It was more of a "locked in" type of motivational energy but not like i wanted to do anything important but motivated to do worthless activities...
The latest lot of raspberry never gave me a locked in feeling but more of a wired feeling. Also, the old lot made me a bit nauseated but the new lot does not.
The original did not make my tongue go numb but it deaded the back of my throat. Made my throat feel swollen and thick. Focus was definitely there but it wasnt the same energy. It was more of a "locked in" type of motivational energy but not like i wanted to do anything important but motivated to do worthless activities...
The latest lot of raspberry never gave me a locked in feeling but more of a wired feeling. Also, the old lot made me a bit nauseated but the new lot does not.
Afi140
Legend
Question, "hypothetically" speaking.... if certain lots were tainted..... how severe could the punishment be? Would the monetary gains outweigh the punishment? especially to someone who already has a criminal record... or does the FDA push severe punishments that would deter shady people and companies from spiking products...
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
the government wants to make things so that individuals can be criminally liable for FDA violations done by their company. Right now thats not so easy for them to do.
ALRI was caught with sibutramine in their diet product a while back (the sibutramine likely came from chinese raws that were spiked). I dont think they got in all that much trouble, and sibutramine is a controlled substance
- Status