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Tmg/betaine

My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

Br
 
ZiR RED said:
My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

Br
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When will the study be finished?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Data is mixed, but studies published in the JISSN over the past 2 years show ergogenic effects.
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Definitely conflicting results with regards to strength and power gains. Only 1-2 studies looking at its effects on body comp in humans, and neither of those were on trained subjects or employed exercise.

Results from animal studies, especially in pigs, shows fantastic results: increased lean mass, decreased fat mass, improved nutrient partitioning, down regulation in lipogenic enzymes/genes, upregulation of some anabolic enzymes, increased insulin and IGF1 signalling, and increased GH secretion.

There is also one human study that shows betaine increases GH...I'm not sure if it is published yet though.

Br
 
2.5 g per day for 6 weeks. Training is standardized, and is an NLP hypertrophy based program. Other sport supplements are prohibited. Diet isn't standardized, but all subjects have been given nutrition counseling based on 3 day dietary logs to ensure adequate protein and caloric intake.

Br
 
texasfinest2 said:
So i only dose on days I work out 2grm pre and 2 post.. What do you recommend??

Droid razor maxx
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Betaine works in part by building up in the tissues, so you should take it every day. It isn't really going to have any significant affects (compared to a stimulant, or post-workout supplement) if taken pre,post, etc. My subjects are taking 1.25g twice per day at breakfast and dinner. Consuming it with food doesn't affect absorbance.

Br
 
Ty.. Proper dosing is half the battle.. So 1grm morning and 1grams evening.? Would this be sufficient or 2 grms morning 1 gray evening to ensure proper quantity? In your opinion?

Droid razor maxx
 
Good question. One that I really can't answer absolutely at this time.

All the research studies have been done at around 2 to 2.5 grams. In pigs, the equated amount was about 3g per day in a 50 kg animal...so, you could always go with 3g per day. The side effects, which at this time are known to be GI distress, really don't set in until around 10g per day, and none were reported in clinical subjects using around 5g per day. So, if cost is not an issue, I don't see a problem with it.

Br
 
Combo of Betaine/Agmatine/DAA and ERase Pro was killer andsurprised the hell out of me...

Add some creatine in the Mix, you have a very affordablestack that is surprisingly effective.
 
I find it fairly cheap I use now sports tmg think ill start dosing 4 grms a day 2 morning and 2 evening.. See how that works thanks for all your help ill rep you when I get on my lap top! Cheers

Droid razor maxx
 
texasfinest2 said:
I find it fairly cheap I use now sports tmg think ill start dosing 4 grms a day 2 morning and 2 evening.. See how that works thanks for all your help ill rep you when I get on my lap top! Cheers

Droid razor maxx
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Is tmg a specific form of betaine or would any betaine supp be the same?
 
n-n-n-methyl-glycine (TMG) is the chemical name for betaine. TMG was discovered in the late 1800's in sugar beets and named betaine.

Br
 
ZiR RED said:
My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

Br
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Is it true that betaine helps your body produce its own source of creatine
 
texasfinest2 said:
Is it true that betaine helps your body produce its own source of creatine
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Excellent question. We should preface this by saying that your body does already produce creatine.

In simple terms, it goes like this:

Guanidinoacetate is formed in the kidneys form glycine and arginine. GAA is then transported to the liver, where it is methylated (a methyl group is removed from S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) )to form creatine. The creatine is then released into the blood and taken up by muscles.

Betaine contains 3 methyl groups (hence the n-n-n-glycine). In methylation metabolism, betaine donates a methyl group (becoming dimethylglycine: DMG) to methionine forming SAM.

So, by increasing SAM it was thought that betaine may improve creatine biosynthesis leading to additional creatine in the muscles. This was true in animals; however, in a recent study it was found not to happen in humans. Now, these humans were untrained and not given an exercise program, so additional creatine synthesis may not have been needed. It would be interesting to see if betaine improves creatine in athletes who train using the CP system (i.e.: heavy weight training, short sprints with full recovery).

That said, increasing methylation potential may improve hypertrophy and strength in a number of other ways that I mentioned as benefits to betaine.

Br

EDIT: I just emailed the author of the study cited above to ask his thoughts on the hypothesis that because creatine demand and storage capacities are increased in resistance training athletes, if the results would be different with a trained population.
 
ZiR RED said:
Excellent question. We should preface this by saying that your body does already produce creatine.

In simple terms, it goes like this:

Guanidinoacetate is formed in the kidneys form glycine and arginine. GAA is then transported to the liver, where it is methylated (a methyl group is removed from S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) )to form creatine. The creatine is then released into the blood and taken up by muscles.

Betaine contains 3 methyl groups (hence the n-n-n-glycine). In methylation metabolism, betaine donates a methyl group (becoming dimethylglycine: DMG) to methionine forming SAM.

So, by increasing SAM it was thought that betaine may improve creatine biosynthesis leading to additional creatine in the muscles. This was true in animals; however, in a recent study it was found not to happen in humans. Now, these humans were untrained and not given an exercise program, so additional creatine synthesis may not have been needed. It would be interesting to see if betaine improves creatine in athletes who train using the CP system (i.e.: heavy weight training, short sprints with full recovery).

That said, increasing methylation potential may improve hypertrophy and strength in a number of other ways that I mentioned as benefits to betaine.

Br
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Sounds like I should be taking this ;)
Thank Br
 
I'm going to continue use just changing to a more appropriate dosing! This is what this forum is all about learning and teaching! Thanks man!

Droid razor maxx
 
ZiR RED said:
My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

Br
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How goes it?
 
TMG (betaine) is an excellent add-on to DAA to increase its effectiveness because it can serve as a methyl donor.
 
Just a quick update with regards to the betaine study.

We saw some pretty impressive improvements in body composition and increases in upper arm muscle mass and improved upper body training volume with betaine.

I'm presenting the dissertation study Tuesday August 21st (9:30 am) at Springfield College (MA) if anyone is interested in getting more info or a quick tour of the facilities.

Br
 
ZiR RED said:
I'm presenting the dissertation study Tuesday August 21st (9:30 am) at Springfield College (MA) if anyone is interested in getting more info or a quick tour of the facilities.
Br
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Will your dissertation be put online after you are finished? At the university where I graduated all dissertations are made available for download as protected PDF files.
 
Greenhulk said:
Will your dissertation be put online after you are finished? At the university where I graduated all dissertations are made available for download as protected PDF files.
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I'm not sure if Springfield does that. I'll find out. I will be submitting it for publication after the defense.
 
ZiR RED said:
Just a quick update with regards to the betaine study.

We saw some pretty impressive improvements in body composition and increases in upper arm muscle mass and improved upper body training volume with betaine.

I'm presenting the dissertation study Tuesday August 21st (9:30 am) at Springfield College (MA) if anyone is interested in getting more info or a quick tour of the facilities.

Br
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Hmm.. interesting.
 
ZiR RED said:
I'm not sure if Springfield does that. I'll find out. I will be submitting it for publication after the defense.
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So, we can find it through PubMed sooner or later if your manuscripts gets accepted, right? Do you already know where you want to submit it to, I mean which journal?
 
Greenhulk said:
So, we can find it through PubMed sooner or later if your manuscripts gets accepted, right? Do you already know where you want to submit it to, I mean which journal?
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Yes, that's correct. I have a pretty good relationship with ACSM's journal Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise. So I will submit it there first.

Br
 
Good discussion in here. Good to hear your study came out with some good results. Interested in checking it out once published.

Both Purus' preworkouts (Muscle Marinade and ConDense) both have 2.5gs per serving so good to have more information coming out on it.
 
I was going to buy some more TMG before reading this thread, but this makes me want to buy it even more. I wish nutra had like a 500g bulk powder tub of it.
 
Glad I jumped in this thread. Good stuff in here, in for the knowledge.
 
Bought 150g of TMG a while back, had it sitting around until I started taking the bottles recommended 2100mg a day with my sns creatine monohydrate and sns DAA about a week ago. Glad to hear there are possibly additional benefits to its supplementation!
 
tnubs said:
I was going to buy some more TMG before reading this thread, but this makes me want to buy it even more. I wish nutra had like a 500g bulk powder tub of it.
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I think smart powders has it in bulk.

To anyone purchasing betaine, make sure you get the anhydrous and not the HCL.

Br
 
Betaine HCL is for low stomach acid and too much would have a negative effect on your health (stomach).

TMG (betaine anhydrous) is not the same as betaine HCL
 
JudoJosh said:
Betaine HCL is for low stomach acid and too much would have a negative effect on your health (stomach).

TMG (betaine anhydrous) is not the same as betaine HCL
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Is this the right kind? Invalid Link Removed
 
Can you please provide your opinion on the other supplements one should take w/ TMG to control homocystein? What are your thoughts on adding supplemental methionine?
 
Beau said:
Can you please provide your opinion on the other supplements one should take w/ TMG to control homocystein? What are your thoughts on adding supplemental methionine?
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The question is why are you trying to control or lower homocysteine? Do you have homocysteinemia (elevated Hcy levels)?
Folate will also reduce Hcy levels.

Taking extra methionine will actually elevate Hcy. This is how they determine a supplements effects on Hcy...they provide a methionine load after the supplement has been taken and absorbed. Extra dietary Met (that is not used in protein synthesis) eventually is converted to Hcy...
Met <--> Hcy

and having too much Met will push the reaction in the Hcy direction.

Br
 
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