DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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Royd The Noyd said:
What if...
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Is this thinking that they pulled an "oh sh*t, they caught us" and dropped the PEA?

Wouldn't people not get the same effect with the new stuff without the PEA.

And bb.com is a complete joke. I can't believe I used to go there. Anyways, they're trying to use "chain of custody", saying an open container is inadmissible legally. They could ship directly to PA, or someone could send and old sealed container to him.
Sounds to me like they're running scared
 
Angelbolic said:
Indeed, but I wouldn't be suprised if they have a bunch of PEA analogs to switch from. If you look at the 'hacked emails' their supplier offers some that haven't been detected by PA. Maybe they haven't used them (yet) but they sure were interested in them. I haven't seen any reports of different effects from different Craze lots, but it may be possible those PEA analogs share psychoactive characteristics with n-benzyl-2-phenethylamine and N,N-diethy-2-phenylethylamine. Obviously this is just conjecture, but it's strange that Cahill still claims there is no n-benzyl-2-phenethylamine in Craze when everyone can still buy some and send it to a lab to have it tested.
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i find cahills putting his ass on the line saying the stuff is not in there as strange too. since the bottle i received had the stuff in there without a doubt.

i doubt neuron spiked the stuff.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i find cahills putting his ass on the line saying the stuff is not in there as strange too. since the bottle i received had the stuff in there without a doubt.

i doubt neuron spiked the stuff.
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Agreed. Seems kinda a lot of work to buy raws, probably from china, just to spike a product and make a company look bad.

Although I'm surprised there's no FDA inquiry like they did after that kid died from hydroxycut. I know they aren't inspected as supplements but muscle tech had to reformists everything.
 
jamesm11 said:
Agreed. Seems kinda a lot of work to buy raws, probably from china, just to spike a product and make a company look bad.

Although I'm surprised there's no FDA inquiry like they did after that kid died from hydroxycut. I know they aren't inspected as supplements but muscle tech had to reformists everything.
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Someone dying is a different story. Who died from craze?
 
Angelbolic said:
Yeah, it's very strange. He could be deceived by your HCl argument, but I'd like to assume a lab takes this into account. I mean Ron Kramer's lab also detected the compound?
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his seeming confusion over my hcl point makes me think he was acting confused to obfuscate something or he doesnt have sufficient knowledge of chemistry to follow

more simply put, compounds with amine nitrogens on them (often also called alkaloids) can exist in salt and free base form. A typical salt is the hydrochloride salt. The thing is, these two forms have very different properties and so you gotta make sure you are looking for the right form

cahill specifically said he did not find n-benzyl-2-pea in his product. But in all likelihood his product would not contain that, it would contain a salt of that - most probably the HCl salt.

So the question was legit and pretty simple for anyone knowledgable about the chemistry of alkaloids. which, once again, makes his apparent confusion very odd
 
bigdavid said:
Someone dying is a different story. Who died from craze?
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No one has. But the guy took like 7-8x the dosage and that was grounds for investigation. If this is potentially harmful they usually step in.

Either way, with everything on this forum and PA's results them you'd be crazy to keep taking a supplement until it pans out. After all it is a "supplement" and pre-workout at that. Really isn't that necessary to ones training regimen.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
his seeming confusion over my hcl point makes me think he was acting confused to obfuscate something or he doesnt have sufficient knowledge of chemistry to follow

more simply put, compounds with amine nitrogens on them (often also called alkaloids) can exist in salt and free base form. A typical salt is the hydrochloride salt. The thing is, these two forms have very different properties and so you gotta make sure you are looking for the right form

cahill specifically said he did not find n-benzyl-2-pea in his product. But in all likelihood his product would not contain that, it would contain a salt of that - most probably the HCl salt.

So the question was legit and pretty simple for anyone knowledgable about the chemistry of alkaloids. which, once again, makes his apparent confusion very odd
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Someone in this industry making products should have this basic knowledge it really isn't that complicated..
 
Heh all of neurons posts were deleted at bb.com, including the one that had the lab results. Cahill still has no answer for your HCl comments. I think he knows exactly whats up.
 
mmats said:
Heh all of neurons posts were deleted at bb.com, including the one that had the lab results. Cahill still has no answer for your HCl comments. I think he knows exactly whats up.
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thats unfortunate. its understandable, bb.com wants to protect its money maker
 
Its also insinuated that you wanted to steal his formula for your company to sell. Just thought it was a weak response, instead of answering, he makes accusations
 
mmats said:
Heh all of neurons posts were deleted at bb.com, including the one that had the lab results. Cahill still has no answer for your HCl comments. I think he knows exactly whats up.
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Patrick Arnold said:
thats unfortunate. its understandable, bb.com wants to protect its money maker
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Just about all threads with negative comments about Craze have been deleted......I think BB wants to cover their ass as well. With them just getting fined 7 million dollars they dont want anymore FDA trouble
 
mw1 said:
Just about all threads with negative comments about Craze have been deleted......I think BB wants to cover their ass as well. With them just getting fined 7 million dollars they dont want anymore FDA trouble
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Most threads questioning companies products/standards/whatever get deleted there.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i find cahills putting his ass on the line saying the stuff is not in there as strange too. since the bottle i received had the stuff in there without a doubt.

i doubt neuron spiked the stuff.
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I've been trying to figure out the difference between N-Benzyl-2-PEA and N-Benzyl-Alpha-PEA and have come up blank for the most part. I've found the latter in several other dietary supplements, but the 2-PEA derivative seems to be scarce (and maybe allegedly found only in Craze at the moment). My background in chemistry is limited and I do not have the contacts and resources that you do PA, so if you could educate us (or just me) on what the difference between the two is it would be much appreciated. The only thing I can gather is that the latter is a 1-PEA derivative where the former obviously is not.
And speaking of N-Benzyl-2-PEA and N,N-diethly-2-PEA.... Are those raws that are easily obtainable? Because if the ****storm over all of this with DS, Cahill and Craze keeps going the way it's been going I (and probably a few other Craze "fans") are going to need a source. I would personally prefer to buy in bulk and make my own capsules. I don't know all the board rules or if that's even an area where you could just point me in the right direction, (I've found hundreds of bulk suppliers online but don't know what to make of any of them or which ones to trust), but if you could I'd be much obliged. At least I could stock up on them before the inevitable crackdown occurs. Hell, if it is the N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine and N,N-diethy-2-phenylethylamine that are doing the "work" in Craze I'd actually prefer to dump the fillers and solely use those 2 PEA's. It'd probably be a helluva lot cheaper and I think if anyone can eliminate something like N-Methyl-Tyramine from their supplement regiment they're doing themselves a favor. That crap is awful and is good for nothing but a spike in blood pressure and a nasty headache IMO.
Thanks in advance, PA. And BTW, Ursobolic is the shizzzit.... I'd tell anyone out there that is thinking about using it to definately give a go.... Just make sure to give it a minimum of three weeks use with a good diet and workout and cardio regiment. I didn't notice much right out of the gate, but three weeks in the results were pretty stellar. Excellent product.
 
bigdavid said:
I still remember that huge thread about when you tested Animal M-stak and one of the ingredients wasn't there... that was a good one lol
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Oh wow....
 
Pa needs to create a list of spiked products! Haha, i doubt they are anymore harmful they half the stuff in.supplements these days. One beer does more damage than most supplements. :/
 
Really? I will be in close watch for this.
 
jamesm11 said:
Its also insinuated that you wanted to steal his formula for your company to sell. Just thought it was a weak response, instead of answering, he makes accusations
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yeah i saw that. that was really lame cuz he took a statement i said and completely twisted it around to make it sound different. i mean, the statement was made on this very thread if i am not mistaken
 
kevinlpii said:
I've been trying to figure out the difference between N-Benzyl-2-PEA and N-Benzyl-Alpha-PEA and have come up blank for the most part. I've found the latter in several other dietary supplements, but the 2-PEA derivative seems to be scarce (and maybe allegedly found only in Craze at the moment). My background in chemistry is limited and I do not have the contacts and resources that you do PA, so if you could educate us (or just me) on what the difference between the two is it would be much appreciated. The only thing I can gather is that the latter is a 1-PEA derivative where the former obviously is not..
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alpha-PEA (1-PEA) has the nitrogen on the first carbon coming off the phenyl and is pretty worthless. beta-PEA (2-PEA) is the stuff in your brain which is a neurotransmitter, and it has the nitrogen on the second carbon coming off the phenyl

of course the n-benzyl derivatives just have benzyl (phenyl-ch2-) groups connected to the corresponding nitrogens
 
kevinlpii said:
And speaking of N-Benzyl-2-PEA and N,N-diethly-2-PEA.... Are those raws that are easily obtainable? Because if the ****storm over all of this with DS, Cahill and Craze keeps going the way it's been going I (and probably a few other Craze "fans") are going to need a source. I would personally prefer to buy in bulk and make my own capsules. I don't know all the board rules or if that's even an area where you could just point me in the right direction, (I've found hundreds of bulk suppliers online but don't know what to make of any of them or which ones to trust), but if you could I'd be much obliged. At least I could stock up on them before the inevitable crackdown occurs. Hell, if it is the N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine and N,N-diethy-2-phenylethylamine that are doing the "work" in Craze I'd actually prefer to dump the fillers and solely use those 2 PEA's. It'd probably be a helluva lot cheaper and I think if anyone can eliminate something like N-Methyl-Tyramine from their supplement regiment they're doing themselves a favor. That crap is awful and is good for nothing but a spike in blood pressure and a nasty headache IMO.
t.
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n-benzyl-2-pea appears to be available. the other one not as widely available

and understand that i never said that the stuff works, just that i saw it in the sample i tested.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
alpha-PEA (1-PEA) has the nitrogen on the first carbon coming off the phenyl and is pretty worthless. beta-PEA (2-PEA) is the stuff in your brain which is a neurotransmitter, and it has the nitrogen on the second carbon coming off the phenyl

of course the n-benzyl derivatives just have benzyl (phenyl-ch2-) groups connected to the corresponding nitrogens
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Thanks, that clarifies a lot. I guess my obvious question is why would a manufacturer use Alpha-PEA's in their dietary supplements at all then? They apparently have little to no use as dietary supplements. I know I've tried several products that have had several different Alpha-PEA's in their "proprietary blend" and I've been disappointed by every one of them. I think the best one I tried gave me a short burst of energy and euphoria and that was it. That particular one also contained Hordenine, which I understand to be a natural MAO inhibitor. Now I'm thinking it's all just a bunch of window dressing and bull****. God only knows how much money I've blown on worthless dietary supplements like that.
 
kevinlpii said:
Thanks, that clarifies a lot. I guess my obvious question is why would a manufacturer use Alpha-PEA's in their dietary supplements at all then? They apparently have little to no use as dietary supplements. I know I've tried several products that have had several different Alpha-PEA's in their "proprietary blend" and I've been disappointed by every one of them. I think the best one I tried gave me a short burst of energy and euphoria and that was it. That particular one also contained Hordenine, which I understand to be a natural MAO inhibitor. Now I'm thinking it's all just a bunch of window dressing and bull****. God only knows how much money I've blown on worthless dietary supplements like that.
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they are used cuz they are cheap and they sound like chemicals that do work. that is my guess. they look good on label, and probably alot of companies that use them dont know much about pharmacology even if they did care
 
I was always under the assumption that the alpha in the nomenclature of pea meant amphetamine.

It appears i was way off.
 
Potatobake said:
If it truly contains amphetamines then this post is absurdly stupid. And you won't miss craze, just aquire a script for adderall ;)
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Lol.....adderrall is the best PWO!!!!!

Why does this come as a surprise? The nutriceutical market is UNREGULATED and until that changes, no one should be surprised.

I have no issue with stims in a product - the more the better - but consumers should be properly informed and have the right to choose which products and ingredients they put in their body. Some people for personal and/or professional reasons would avoid stimulant-based products and they deserve full disclosure of substances in any product.
 
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not sure if that works, but Matt Cahill is talking about Craze and its a good talk. I believe them. I am a firm believer that Craze is NOT an amphetamine and is safe. Im glad i watched this. Although people can lie, i believe them.
 
Iron_Will said:
not sure if that works, but Matt Cahill is talking about superdrol and its a good talk. I believe them. I am a firm believer that superdrol is NOT a hepatotoxic steroid and is safe. Im glad i watched this. Although people can lie, i believe them.
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edited for lulz
 
because i do... i just do
 
Iron_Will said:
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not sure if that works, but Matt Cahill is talking about Craze and its a good talk. I believe them. I am a firm believer that Craze is NOT an amphetamine and is safe. Im glad i watched this. Although people can lie, i believe them.
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I'm not really on either side, but what did you expect him to say about the situation?
 
Patrick, where is the full GC Chromatogram from your testing of the sample? Surely there are a lot more peaks than just the N-Benzl peak? The chromo I saw posted at bb.com only showed the N-Benzyl peak and nothing else.
 
Iron_Will said:
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not sure if that works, but Matt Cahill is talking about Craze and its a good talk. I believe them. I am a firm believer that Craze is NOT an amphetamine and is safe. Im glad i watched this. Although people can lie, i believe them.
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Based on track record or just that you like Craze. I would research track record if it is just his word that makes you feel warm and cozy. May still feel same, may not. Haha, hard to know what to believe on net anymore.
 
oh well. I dont really care. i think its fine
 
ShadowJack said:
Patrick, where is the full GC Chromatogram from your testing of the sample? Surely there are a lot more peaks than just the N-Benzl peak? The chromo I saw posted at bb.com only showed the N-Benzyl peak and nothing else.
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that is because i only showed that part of the chromatogram in order to blow it up so u can see better

the full chromatogram showed just one other peak. i think its n,n-diethyl-2-phenethylamine but since i have no standard i cant verify

its odd i didnt see caffeine. unless craze doesnt contain caffeine.
 
ShadowJack said:
Patrick, where is the full GC Chromatogram from your testing of the sample? Surely there are a lot more peaks than just the N-Benzl peak? The chromo I saw posted at bb.com only showed the N-Benzyl peak and nothing else.
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it showed the impurity that also was present in the standard. my mass spectrum library suggests that its identity is n-benzylidene-2-pea. that is n-benzyl-2-pea with a second bond added between the benzyl carbon and nitrogen
 
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