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** AutoKal Nutrient Partitioners Deathmatch **

Oh Also --- when doing keto-type dieting and incorporating refeeds or cheat meals......I always recommend to dose a GDA --(recompadrol) or if using metformin to take a dose right before bed to initiate a faster transition into ketosis or simply super low blood / sugar so fasted cardio will be more effective after a cheat meal or refeed.

-Matt
 
MattPorter said:
Oh Also --- when doing keto-type dieting and incorporating refeeds or cheat meals......I always recommend to dose a GDA --(recompadrol) or if using metformin to take a dose right before bed to initiate a faster transition into ketosis or simply super low blood / sugar so fasted cardio will be more effective after a cheat meal or refeed.

-Matt

I just started my carb cycling again. Will need to purchase a bottle of Recompdrol. I've taken all of them besides Recompdrol. Loved glycobol but will give Recompdrol a shot. Ur advice sounds good.
 
halfhuman said:
I just started my carb cycling again. Will need to purchase a bottle of Recompdrol. I've taken all of them besides Recompdrol. Loved glycobol but will give Recompdrol a shot. Ur advice sounds good.

Yeah I dropped carbs low for a day or 2 lost some bloat.
Can't wait for my recompadrol to come in and see if it will reduce bloat when I am taking in 300+ carbs a day
 
ssbackwards said:
Ok so basically,Leptin is the master regulator of everything. Leptin raises with insulinHigh hypothalmic levels decrease hunger. It also depresses NPY and related hunger signals and starvation signals like ghrelin and agouti, respectivlyLow hypothalmic levels like those in dieting do the opposite, which raises NPY,Ghrelin, AgRP. Now there's more involved that I won't go into at this time, but they are regulated by what you eat as well.The case with ALA is that's it increases total body expenditure including fat burning and slight DGAT1 inhibition (DGAT isn't so important here IMO)With you Houston what I would guess is happening is due to the MOA of ALA. You are over exerting. You feel weak due to depleted muscle glycogen from the ALA use plus the workout. Try adding some carnosine and leucine to the workout.

Could you use a standard 4:1:1 or 8:1:1 BCAA to counteract it?or EAA and BCAA like purple wraath etc?
 
AaronJP1 said:
See u guys like to wake up dry huh?
Just dont piss the bed :p

Why not just use some ala, gynemma, and Banaba bulk?
 
AutoKal47 said:
3clipse saved me :D

yep, tell me about it.. I have some new *very* interesting products to try soon
and i'm fightin' hard not to pop 'em open right away, and yet I hate to leave bottles half way

Any hints AK???suspense kills me hahah
 
Adding 8:1:1 or 4:1:1 will counteract that runnerAs far as using ala gymnemma and banaba in bulkYou can certainly do it. Its very cheap to get a kilo of each. I believe your only looking at about 300 dollars. Problem is banaba is 800 per kilo at 20% extract. And banaba 1.5% is about 150 or so. Ill have to check againSo you will need about 1.5g banaba to get 20mg corosolic acid
 
houstontexas said:
Every time this thread gets bumped I get excited for my shipment to arrive

Hopefully mine would be in the mail today.
 
AutoKal, did you eventually end up using it the way Dinoiii suggested?
What do you think of this profile?
Garcinia (60% HCA) 750mg
Gymnema Sylvestre 400mg
Banaba Leaf 450mg
Fenugreek 610mg
Oregon Grape Root 475mg

I know it looks like it might cause stomach upset from 2.685 grams of total product, but does it look like it would be effective?
 
AutoKal, did you eventually end up using it the way Dinoiii suggested?

To some extent. Doing IF/warrior i don't have a post workout meal or shaker,
training in the morning and eating my first meal at 9pm so nothing to report
for the 6 training days a week, I take 1 or 2cps 20 min prior each meal.

But for refeed, since the refeed starts right away post workout on legs day,
I don't use GDA with my first meal post workout and with the second one, which is 2 hours later.
Then with the following meals I absolutely use Recomp, very high doses too.

What do you think of this profile?
Garcinia (60% HCA) 750mg
Gymnema Sylvestre 400mg
Banaba Leaf 450mg
Fenugreek 610mg
Oregon Grape Root 475mg

I know it looks like it might cause stomach upset from 2.685 grams of total product, but does it look like it would be effective?

Ingredients are known and solid, now we should see how the formula actually works,
altho' I've never got much out of fenugreek to be honest
 
Ingredients are known and solid, now we should see how the formula actually works,
altho' I've never got much out of fenugreek to be honest
Ditching the Fenugreek.
I'm trying to make up my own concoction. It looks like Slin Sane uses full spectrum ingredients since it's so cheap, it doesn't list a percentage of gymnemic or corosolic acid, and the write up says this:
"Initially, researchers thought banaba’s positive effects to be solely related to its content of corosolic acid, but studies have since shown there may be multiple other compounds in the leaf that contribute to its numerous benefits."
So I'm going with the cheaper whole/full spectrum products which are insanely cheap(40 grams of Gymnema for $1.23, 40.5 grams Banaba $4.04). If that's what they're using then Slin Sane is overpriced.
I'm hoping Oregon Grape Root is a good enough source of berberine with the amount that will be taken.
 
Very interested in this as I've been taking a leangains approach with controlled carb intake, keeping it overall under 100g. Would love to see the results and the advantages of taking these in a low carb controlled environment.
 
Very interested in this as I've been taking a leangains approach with controlled carb intake, keeping it overall under 100g. Would love to see the results and the advantages of taking these in a low carb controlled environment.

My daily carb intake is 30gr max 6 days a week, all year round.
This might put the whole thread in the right perspective
 
AutoKal, did you eventually end up using it the way Dinoiii suggested?
What do you think of this profile?
Garcinia (60% HCA) 750mg
Gymnema Sylvestre 400mg
Banaba Leaf 450mg
Fenugreek 610mg
Oregon Grape Root 475mg

I know it looks like it might cause stomach upset from 2.685 grams of total product, but does it look like it would be effective?
when taking into account the 2.685g of product i wouldnt worry about upset stomach. your looking at a 4 cap serving it looks like.

Also fenugreek wasnt extracted to anything, neither was oregon grape and banaba. if you were to do this i would source bulk material (kilo at a time) and take it from there. you want to find products that have standardized extracts. they are stronger and you know what you are getting.

However aside from that the ingredients look solid. just get standardized extract.
 
when taking into account the 2.685g of product i wouldnt worry about upset stomach. your looking at a 4 cap serving it looks like.

Also fenugreek wasnt extracted to anything, neither was oregon grape and banaba. if you were to do this i would source bulk material (kilo at a time) and take it from there. you want to find products that have standardized extracts. they are stronger and you know what you are getting.

However aside from that the ingredients look solid. just get standardized extract.

This :)
 
AutoKal47 said:
My daily carb intake is 30gr max 6 days a week, all year round.
This might put the whole thread in the right perspective

You only eat 30g a day Max? You have zero buisness in this thread lol
 
Yeah 30g of carbs I eat in a snack haha...

But I'm not in as good of shape as either of u 2, so I'll be quiet haha...
 
You only eat 30g a day Max? You have zero buisness in this thread lol

lol I imagined pretty much everyone knew that already :D
yes, 30gr max a day, the day before refeed I keep 'em at "traces"

Yeah 30g of carbs I eat in a snack haha...

But I'm not in as good of shape as either of u 2, so I'll be quiet haha...

We're all different, what works for one.. :)
 
Also fenugreek wasnt extracted to anything, neither was oregon grape and banaba. if you were to do this i would source bulk material (kilo at a time) and take it from there. you want to find products that have standardized extracts. they are stronger and you know what you are getting.
As I said, it doesn't look like Slin Sane uses standardized extracts and everyone praises it's effects. Do you know if Slin Sane uses any specific extract?
The standardized extracts are much more expensive. Noone knows the actual amount of Banaba Leaf (20% Corosolic Acid) in Recompadrol, it could be as miniscule as 10mg or less. The only high potency extract of Banaba(18% corosolic acid) I can find is ~.09 per mg(or $93.86 per gram). Otherwise I can get 5.4 grams of Banaba(2% corosolic acid) for $2.33. It doesn't have as good of reviews as the full spectrum leaf though.
I don't know of any place that sells them by the kilo.
 
remember you have 20% extract, the other 80% is plant constituents.

I cant speak for sline sane as i dont know. but i can get you a kilo of banaba 1.5 for like $150. a kilo of banaba 20% is about 800.
 
My daily carb intake is 30gr max 6 days a week, all year round.
This might put the whole thread in the right perspective

Yep, I used to be the same way, keeping it under 30g 6 days a week, just recently I've changed it into doing 3 days under 100, 3 days under 30 and 1 day of refeed.
 
Yep, I used to be the same way, keeping it under 30g 6 days a week, just recently I've changed it into doing 3 days under 100, 3 days under 30 and 1 day of refeed.
u trying to get lean, stay lean , or bulk....i jsut kinda always liked the low carb way but never really seen alot of people bulking like this, and im bulking, but like this layout!
 
u trying to get lean, stay lean , or bulk....i jsut kinda always liked the low carb way but never really seen alot of people bulking like this, and im bulking, but like this layout!

bulking keto style is good. keeps you lean and will put on decent muscle. however you wont grow and repair the type 2 fibers on a low carb diet (unless targeted ketogenic), as lyle stated in his book... due to high GH but LOW insulin. (page 25)
 
bulking keto style is good. keeps you lean and will put on decent muscle. however you wont grow and repair the type 2 fibers on a low carb diet (unless targeted ketogenic), as lyle stated in his book... due to high GH but LOW insulin. (page 25)

Not so sure I would buy into that type2 fiber high GH low insulin theory.

I would like to see someones blood tests done on each diet to see how high there serum GH and Igf1 levels are.

High fat actually blunts GH signaling more than higher carbs. Without carbs you will not get an efficient conversion to igf-1.

I have bulked on a higher fat lower carb diet and it did work good, but is not optimal if you want to maximize size.

-Matt
 
I'd still like to see any scientific data showing a ketogenic diet causing less fat gain with muscle gains or more fat loss with less muscle loss. Most of the evidence done in studies shows it to be neutral to slightly worse than a calorie restricted diet that isn't ketogenic. Seems like a low carb but not keto was the most optimal (in that 100-150g/day range).
 
I wrote this when I had my first off-season on HIGH fats --- lower carbs. I cheat very heavily once-a-week.

Invalid Link Removed incorporate all macros now as I am trying to be the biggest bodybuilder I can be.

-Matt
 
I wrote this when I had my first off-season on HIGH fats --- lower carbs. I cheat very heavily once-a-week.

Invalid Link Removed incorporate all macros now as I am trying to be the biggest bodybuilder I can be.

-Matt

yeah, but I can point out the relatively major flaws in each of those studies that directly measures fat/lean mass using dexa. And there are roughly as many studies that show the reverse. I agree that a ketogenic diet works better for some people as its easier to stay on it, you still get to enjoy some "guilty" foods like bacon. But the data showing it being superior to other diets as far as retained muscle during a cut (particularly for someone starting at 15% or under) is spotty at best.
 
Not so sure I would buy into that type2 fiber high GH low insulin theory.

I would like to see someones blood tests done on each diet to see how high there serum GH and Igf1 levels are.

High fat actually blunts GH signaling more than higher carbs. Without carbs you will not get an efficient conversion to igf-1.

I have bulked on a higher fat lower carb diet and it did work good, but is not optimal if you want to maximize size.

-Matt

i would say it depends more on the fat taken in. Saturated fats increase GIP much more then omega 3-6-9. Insulin is low but also its not non existant. but maximizing size comes from type 2 fibers, those are strength and explosive fibers (2a and 2x)
 
I'd still like to see any scientific data showing a ketogenic diet causing less fat gain with muscle gains or more fat loss with less muscle loss. Most of the evidence done in studies shows it to be neutral to slightly worse than a calorie restricted diet that isn't ketogenic. Seems like a low carb but not keto was the most optimal (in that 100-150g/day range).

the biochemistry is there.

Malonyl coa is an intermediate in fatty acid synthesis. When liver glycogen is high, so is Malonyl CoA (M CoA). M CoA reduces CPT 1. CPT1 is responsible for transporting FFA into mitochondria to be burned (why people use carnitine)

if you have low ACC and Malonyl CoA you will inevitable have reduced fat gain.
 
SS: U need to get your own forum like Pat Arnold. Your knowledge and ability to apply it is practically is among some of the best on this board. Props man
 
REcompadrol blows glycobol away in every category. not to say glycobol isnt any good as its actually quite effective but after taking recompadrol I dont even look at glycobOL or those slin products because i feel Ill just be wasting my money. This is quite weird cause if you know me i never buy the same pre-workout, protein, test booster, etc more than once, as i love experimenting with different supps but as far as nutrient partitioner goes recompadrols where its at.
 
Whacked said:
SS: U need to get your own forum like Pat Arnold. Your knowledge and ability to apply it is practically is among some of the best on this board. Props man

Yeah he's too smart.
 
thanks guys.

Ill be more then happy to start a thread, i guess in supplement forum if people truely want my opinion
 
ssbackwards said:
thanks guys.

Ill be more then happy to start a thread, i guess in supplement forum if people truely want my opinion

That's fine, but I don't understand it haha....

I just it in black and white haha...
 
aye, +1 to this
SS is my man, he's been helping me *a lot* with my diet and my recent
tweaks are because of him and the results have been nothing but awesome ;)

glad i can help. the new avi is ridiculous man.

i start dieting... well actually dieting for my carribean trip beginning of march. i always low carbin it to stay lean (first trip end of this month), hopefully ill drop a percent or so in the next 2 weeks.

super excited for this upcoming year my dude.
 
I think your smart azzz missed my point

A Q&A forum not a thread

lol

SS: U need to get your own forum like Pat Arnold. Your knowledge and ability to apply it is practically is among some of the best on this board. Props man

thanks guys.

Ill be more then happy to start a thread, i guess in supplement forum if people truely want my opinion
 
u trying to get lean, stay lean , or bulk....i jsut kinda always liked the low carb way but never really seen alot of people bulking like this, and im bulking, but like this layout!

My original thought was to bulk on this layout, but going with lean gains I actually have increased size and weight quite a bit but have gotten leaner and with less fat.

I've been more or less going 30% more cals than maintenance on workout days, 30% less on non-workout days. It has been working wonders. I've put on ~4lbs in a month and have lost inches off my midsection and gotten better definition. If I were to guess I would say I moved from 14% to 12%.

This was with that setup I mentioned above and playing with the calories 30+/-
 
the biochemistry is there.

Malonyl coa is an intermediate in fatty acid synthesis. When liver glycogen is high, so is Malonyl CoA (M CoA). M CoA reduces CPT 1. CPT1 is responsible for transporting FFA into mitochondria to be burned (why people use carnitine)

if you have low ACC and Malonyl CoA you will inevitable have reduced fat gain.

I'll agree that the biochemistry looking at those specific markers supports it conceptually, but it has not been shown to be the case that there is enhanced fat loss with less muscle loss in any scientific studies. Its one of the problems of either looking at in vitro studies and expanding the results to believing it works in vivo, as well as the fact that there are so many chemical processes going on that looking at a few blood markers does not give a wholistic picture of how the human body responds.
 
I'll agree that the biochemistry looking at those specific markers supports it conceptually, but it has not been shown to be the case that there is enhanced fat loss with less muscle loss in any scientific studies. Its one of the problems of either looking at in vitro studies and expanding the results to believing it works in vivo, as well as the fact that there are so many chemical processes going on that looking at a few blood markers does not give a wholistic picture of how the human body responds.

there are many limitations in all these studies.

the science supports blocked gluconeogenesis with a ketogenic diet (when high ketones are present). This is good, as fats being oxidized yed muscle isnt catabolized.

The insulin responce from the lower carb caloric reduced diet is anti catabolic however from my experience i find it more difficult to drop fat if they are too high.

If there were studies using different ratios, using it the way we use it ect things would be different. Leptin levels are a major factor as well as AMPK and incretin hormones when it comes to catabolism and insulin secretion, respectivly
 
there are many limitations in all these studies.

just as there is a major limitation of extrapolating a view of a handful of biological markers into whole body effects.

the science supports blocked gluconeogenesis with a ketogenic diet (when high ketones are present). This is good, as fats being oxidized yed muscle isnt catabolized.

however, from all i've seen you only reach a high ketone level when you are on a hypocaloric diet, which althought would stop gluconeogenesis, would also stop fat loss. Unless you mean high creation of keytones rather than a high serum level, which then its possible.

The insulin responce from the lower carb caloric reduced diet is anti catabolic however from my experience i find it more difficult to drop fat if they are too high.

If there were studies using different ratios, using it the way we use it ect things would be different. Leptin levels are a major factor as well as AMPK and incretin hormones when it comes to catabolism and insulin secretion, respectivly

agreed, but then there should have been at least a few studies that did support it, even if there were many more that didn't. I don't think i've ever found a single one that supported the idea behind increased fat loss with lower muscle loss in vivo.
 
just as there is a major limitation of extrapolating a view of a handful of biological markers into whole body effects.



however, from all i've seen you only reach a high ketone level when you are on a hypocaloric diet, which althought would stop gluconeogenesis, would also stop fat loss. Unless you mean high creation of keytones rather than a high serum level, which then its possible.
That high ketone level happens when your in consistent ketosis for about 3 weeks, in which insulin and sugars start to rise halting fat loss, however, the carbup/refeeds blunt this action, increase leptin and adiponectin which protects the liver from NAFLD

But the creation of ketones happens daily even on some one not on a diet its a metabolic process. The more fat you eat the more ketones are produced. (well fats oxidized via B-oxidation and forms FFA and acetyl CoA which when over aboundant the liver converts to ketones). so in theory it doesnt matter hypo caloric or hyper caloric, as long as theres an influx of FFA there will be ketone creation.




agreed, but then there should have been at least a few studies that did support it, even if there were many more that didn't. I don't think i've ever found a single one that supported the idea behind increased fat loss with lower muscle loss in vivo.

There was one study, only one that i saw mentioned carbohydrate amount vs fat Mass loss. It showed....

30g carb= 98% of weight lost was from fat
60g carb= 75% of weight from fat
and so on (numbers arent 100% here just an example of what i saw. I may have posted it)
 
There was one study, only one that i saw mentioned carbohydrate amount vs fat Mass loss. It showed....

30g carb= 98% of weight lost was from fat
60g carb= 75% of weight from fat
and so on (numbers arent 100% here just an example of what i saw. I may have posted it)

if you happen to have some time to poke around for it, I'd like to see the study. I've personally had mixed results with a ketogenic diet with or without refeeds.
 
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