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Creatine. Oldie but a goodie or time to move on

analogsubstnz

analogsubstnz

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Alright so I'm pretty new to supplementation as a whole, but I've been using creatine for about two years. I know there's better stuff out there but is there really that much of a reason to change supplements?
 
analogsubstnz said:
Alright so I'm pretty new to supplementation as a whole, but I've been using creatine for about two years. I know there's better stuff out there but is there really that much of a reason to change supplements?
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if you like apples it does not mean you have to stop eating them if you want to try oranges

No offense but the title of this section is Advanced Discussion with PA, not supplements 101 with PA. There has to be a beginners section on here somewhere
 
castro10 said:
Creatine has been around for a while. The only real motivator to change is dependent upon what form of creatine you are using and what activity you are performing. Is it Creatine Monohydrate or Creatine Hydrochloride (HCl)? I am going to do a study on the use of Creatine HCl and its effects on athletic performance. I will let you know the results when I am done if you are interested.
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creatine mono works quite well but what i like about the highly soluble options such as creatine hcl is that it allows quicker absorption which means you can time it more specifically with high glycemic intake and/or training times
 
Patrick Arnold said:
creatine mono works quite well but what i like about the highly soluble options such as creatine hcl is that it allows quicker absorption which means you can time it more specifically with high glycemic intake and/or training times
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Quicker means to a same end. Will your body composition benefit from 3 weeks of weight training with 1-2 reps heavier than it otherwise would have been during those 3 weeks? Probably not. But your wallet will suffer.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Quicker means to a same end.
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its never been studied though has it. that is, the effects of faster creatine taken in such a manner over regular creatine mono intake that is untimed

pharmacokinetic alterations can change behviour of drugs and supplements - sometimes in unanticiptated fashions
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Quicker means to a same end. Will your body composition benefit from 3 weeks of weight training with 1-2 reps heavier than it otherwise would have been during those 3 weeks? Probably not. But your wallet will suffer.
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creatine HCl is not very expensive. wallet wont really suffer

also many athletes (i am talking about competitive action sports not bb'ing etc) have trouble with creatine side effects such cramping and water retention that is seen with mono. This greatly limits its usefullness. Taking it the way i suggested may help to overcome some of those problems and allow these people to reap some of the benefits
 
Patrick Arnold said:
its never been studied though has it. that is, the effects of faster creatine taken in such a manner over regular creatine mono intake that is untimed

pharmacokinetic alterations can change behviour of drugs and supplements - sometimes in unanticiptated fashions
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So you think you can reach supraphysiological levels via Creatine HCl? If I recall correctly the same can be done with CEE?

Patrick Arnold said:
creatine HCl is not very expensive. wallet wont really suffer

also many athletes (i am talking about competitive action sports not bb'ing etc) have trouble with creatine side effects such cramping and water retention that is seen with mono. This greatly limits its usefullness. Taking it the way i suggested may help to overcome some of those problems and allow these people to reap some of the benefits
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Err, by creatine HCl, I mean't Con-Cret. I have never investigated simple bulk CreHCl.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
So you think you can reach supraphysiological levels via Creatine HCl? If I recall correctly the same can be done with CEE?
.
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I dont understand what you mean by supraphysiological levels in the case of creatine. u mean blood levels? any creatine should lead to high blood levels of creatine but i dunno if a physiological "norm" of creatine in the blood has ever been estabolished

what i was thinking was creatine HCl is probably absorbed alot faster than creatine mono. which would lead to higher max concentrations and quicker elimination times (as well as less time spent in gut where troubling osmotic effects can take place). I dunno this for sure but that is what i am guessing
 
Patrick Arnold said:
I dont understand what you mean by supraphysiological levels in the case of creatine. u mean blood levels? any creatine should lead to high blood levels of creatine but i dunno if a physiological "norm" of creatine in the blood has ever been estabolished

what i was thinking was creatine HCl is probably absorbed alot faster than creatine mono. which would lead to higher max concentrations and quicker elimination times (as well as less time spent in gut where troubling osmotic effects can take place). I dunno this for sure but that is what i am guessing
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Sorry, not blood levels, I was referring to overall intramuscular PCr stores. Not sure why I used that term; for some reason I assumed from your above post that CreHCl would lead to greater PCr stores than CreMono. Obviously now I know you mean uptake and the like, and I agree.

What is your take on MCC/NaCC/KCC as compared to mono in terms of its absorption in the GI tract?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Sorry, not blood levels, I was referring to overall intramuscular PCr stores. Not sure why I used that term; for some reason I assumed from your above post that CreHCl would lead to greater PCr stores than CreMono. Obviously now I know you mean uptake and the like, and I agree.

What is your take on MCC/NaCC/KCC as compared to mono in terms of its absorption in the GI tract?
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i think the MCC is quite interesting. I am not familiar with the other two. but anything that can increase solubility greatly and therefore possibly speed up absorption would fit into the ideas i discussed above. the mag chelate may be faster than even the salts
 
Patrick Arnold said:
creatine mono works quite well but what i like about the highly soluble options such as creatine hcl is that it allows quicker absorption which means you can time it more specifically with high glycemic intake and/or training times
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What is your take on the exact reason why CEE converted to more creatinine vs creatine monohydrate?

I had a theory that it was due to it being more soluble, but have no reasoning behind it really.
 
nattydisaster said:
What is your take on the exact reason why CEE converted to more creatinine vs creatine monohydrate?

I had a theory that it was due to it being more soluble, but have no reasoning behind it really.
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i can tell you exactly why because i worked with that compound alot. i originally was going to manufacture it for the patent holders and did pilot batches.

the compound will convert to creatinine spontaneously when in an enviornment of pH above 4 or so. So as soon as it gets into the intestines or blood it pretty much will go right to creatine. With that said, i still believed in the stuff for a while because it seemed to work. I used to think that maybe a small amount of CEE did get to muscles. Subsequent research though seems to have discredited the stuff though.

Of course, no one ever did a study to show if creatinine has any ergogenic effects have they? we just assume its worthless, but do we really know 100 percent?
 
also, unlike CM, CEE is unstable at alkaline pHs as well. anything over 3-4 and it will fall apart fast

if a creatine ester that was more stable to pH conditions was developed that would be interesting. We tried to make a benzyl ester but only ended up with creatine HCl and benzyl alcohol
 
castro10 said:
Creatine has been around for a while. The only real motivator to change is dependent upon what form of creatine you are using and what activity you are performing. Is it Creatine Monohydrate or Creatine Hydrochloride (HCl)? I am going to do a study on the use of Creatine HCl and its effects on athletic performance. I will let you know the results when I am done if you are interested.
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Yes I'd really be interested in that
 
castro10 said:
ill create a separate post or blog upon the results of my study Im doing at San Diego State University for my undergraduate class in exercise science.
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I'm confused. You're in an exercise science class...how are you going to "do" a study? You need funding, a lab, training, and hopefully a supervisor.
 
castro10 said:
I am doing this study as a part of a project for my class, physiology of exercise. I have a laboratory to work with and my group is doing test models in this lab, which we have been trained by the class professor prior to testing. I am a senior so I am competent in using the equipment with my group colleagues. Supervision is done under the lab professor. Due to a limited amount of time we can not do extensive testing.
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what equipment you got?
 
castro10 said:
Because our project was only a total of 3 meetings with our participants, we only used a graded treadmill, stand-still long jump (power), and strength grip (strength) for testing Creatine. The lab had more to work with but because there were other groups using other equipment we were unable to as a group of 3 able to use the lactic analyzer or more extensive testing to accurately. I will inform you guys more once I able to do so by being complete with my paper and power point presentation.
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not even body composition?
 
so after reading all the post, i am thinking I should just use the 5lb bag of mono I have sitting in my pantry, instead of purchasing some hcl, because it works.

i've never noticed any significant improvement in performance with creatine usage. maybe its because i dont have special equipment to measure changes?
or maybe i shouldn't be expecting to notice a difference like i do with steroid usage.
 
jbryand101b said:
so after reading all the post, i am thinking I should just use the 5lb bag of mono I have sitting in my pantry, instead of purchasing some hcl, because it works.

i've never noticed any significant improvement in performance with creatine usage. maybe its because i dont have special equipment to measure changes?
or maybe i shouldn't be expecting to notice a difference like i do with steroid usage.
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Creatine was the first supplement I used so I noticed huge changes when I starting supplementing with it. If you used steroids before you tried creatine then I am sure it would pale in comparison.
 
redms said:
How does tri creatine malate compare to the others mentioned CEE, HCI and CM.
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it probably has better solubility then creatine mono.

actually malic acid only has two acid functional groups on it. So it should not be possible to make a tri-creatine salt
 
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