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DAA - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser

Thanks for the heads up Dana so what did you recommend as an AI for a 90 days DAA run?

BTW the Mucuna Pruiens “protocol” is for me I used this for 6 months without break of this stuff at the point I start see “weird things” if I can say hallucinations?

I am limited on my ability to "recommend" products per se simply due to the potential liability associated with said advice; however, I am at liberty of offering objective options. All of the AIs mentioned in this thread are "acceptable" and have been used with success. If planning on embarking on a DAA run of greater than 3 months, you may be inclined to alternate between a "stronger" and "not-so-strong" type. We are still collecting data on different agents to date though.

As for the hallucinations, certain alkaloids present in mucuna may present a higher incidence of hallucination. If using herbs, different quantities of respective ingredients run amok and that would be expected - as I associate herbs as "nature's proprietary blend." What kinds of mucuna extracts or products have you used?

Hey Dana, what do you think of using naringin with mucana to extend the half life? I have done this with great results and could dose it less throughout the day due to its short half life. I also notice it allows me to do the 5 on and 2 off protocol with no prolactin rebound. Another thing I have noticed is that people very distant from me and are unable to bond with me due to what I assume are lower levels of oxycotin.

I wouldn't know how to separate whether the naringin is extending the half life as you say OR offering an alternate mechanism of action as it does possess Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor activity. Kind of the same with Huperzine A. That said, this is not a protocol I currently employ in the research world simply because it would be hard to eliminate confounding variables from a mechanistic standpoint.

I am interested too in what AI you would recommend for long term usage? I am currently using 3g DAA ED and 0,5mg Arimidex eod. I am loving the results so far.

As above...ADex is certainly acceptable.

I understand your reasoning perfectly, i should have mentioned that i also do not understand why taking an A.I. clears the problems up in a day. It just so happens that it works for me. and its a single night dose of a week AI at that (gaspari's novodex)

as for the drug tolerance effect, i think i can explain. i know find that everything i used to double or triple dose(or even stop feeling it work) is back to single dosing for full effects. everything feels like the very first time. mdma, k, even ephedrin and caffeine. and the effect has been maintained since july 2010.

the one possible synergy could possibly be that almost concurrently the whole time since june 2010 i was taking a herbal mix of Catuaba/Horny Goat/Muirapauma and Maca (from viable herbalsolutions) but this mix i started before the DAA and while it helped with libido and a subtle energy boost/better sleep it had none of the effects i experienced after DAA and chelated DAA in particular.

Interesting.

I can't say as though I have heard this before though. Do you anticipate getting any blood work done in the near future just to see where you're at?


this has been an excellent thread, thanks so uch for the information. This makes me think twice about using DAA. Do you have recommendations for AI and dopamine agonist?

As for "recommendations," again...I will defer you to the above.

I don't know as though it should make you nervous or concerned about administering DAA (there are plenty of products with much smaller tallies of data), but being cogniscent of potential side effects is always wise to do.


D_
 
I am limited on my ability to "recommend" products per se simply due to the potential liability associated with said advice; however, I am at liberty of offering objective options. All of the AIs mentioned in this thread are "acceptable" and have been used with success. If planning on embarking on a DAA run of greater than 3 months, you may be inclined to alternate between a "stronger" and "not-so-strong" type. We are still collecting data on different agents to date though.

As for the hallucinations, certain alkaloids present in mucuna may present a higher incidence of hallucination. If using herbs, different quantities of respective ingredients run amok and that would be expected - as I associate herbs as "nature's proprietary blend." What kinds of mucuna extracts or products have you used?


D_


I used several (mix) brands and bulk powders all above (Standardized 40-75% L-Dopa)
 
I am limited on my ability to "recommend" products per se simply due to the potential liability associated with said advice; however, I am at liberty of offering objective options. All of the AIs mentioned in this thread are "acceptable" and have been used with success. If planning on embarking on a DAA run of greater than 3 months, you may be inclined to alternate between a "stronger" and "not-so-strong" type. We are still collecting data on different agents to date though.

As for the hallucinations, certain alkaloids present in mucuna may present a higher incidence of hallucination. If using herbs, different quantities of respective ingredients run amok and that would be expected - as I associate herbs as "nature's proprietary blend." What kinds of mucuna extracts or products have you used?



I wouldn't know how to separate whether the naringin is extending the half life as you say OR offering an alternate mechanism of action as it does possess Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor activity. Kind of the same with Huperzine A. That said, this is not a protocol I currently employ in the research world simply because it would be hard to eliminate confounding variables from a mechanistic standpoint.



As above...ADex is certainly acceptable.



Interesting.

I can't say as though I have heard this before though. Do you anticipate getting any blood work done in the near future just to see where you're at?




As for "recommendations," again...I will defer you to the above.

I don't know as though it should make you nervous or concerned about administering DAA (there are plenty of products with much smaller tallies of data), but being cogniscent of potential side effects is always wise to do.


D_
So basically it would inhibit somastatin, wouldn't that be ideal with a GH agonist such as l-dopa from mucana?
 
So basically it would inhibit somastatin, wouldn't that be ideal with a GH agonist such as l-dopa from mucana?

I mentioned its action on Acetylcholine; I am unsure there has been a well-delineated mechanism surrounding somatostatin as there are usually eight or more bioactive compounds administered simultaneously. Feel free to offer a study to the contrary; I am not saying it doesn't exist, just the ones I am aware of are using naringin+ ...

And as for L-Dopa; the action we're in search of with DAA is one where dopamine acts to inhibit prolactin secretion. As for the GH-secreting suggestion; I am uncertain that would make a discernable difference in physique alteration, but that can be suggested for many, if not all, so-called GH secretagogues.


D_
 
Interesting.

I can't say as though I have heard this before though. Do you anticipate getting any blood work done in the near future just to see where you're at?

I have done blood work twice, everything is normal.
liver values were either normal or an insignificant 1 or 2% above high value

hormones were inconclusive as the only time i did them was after pct(with DAA and clomid) of a phreak(SD_hdrol cycle -daa morning and single dose ph afternoon for 4 weeks) - i only started feeling mild suppression at 4 weeks which was awesome considering the combo so i stopped.
i am thinking of repeating at least total test next weekend though
(unless you advise doing free test?)

all other tests were normal. cholesterol was awesome etc

as for tolerance, i found it applied to pretty much everything that has an acute "felt" effect

Thanks!
 
I have done blood work twice, everything is normal.
liver values were either normal or an insignificant 1 or 2% above high value

hormones were inconclusive as the only time i did them was after pct(with DAA and clomid) of a phreak(SD_hdrol cycle -daa morning and single dose ph afternoon for 4 weeks) - i only started feeling mild suppression at 4 weeks which was awesome considering the combo so i stopped.
i am thinking of repeating at least total test next weekend though
(unless you advise doing free test?)

I think free test is absolutely quintessential. If you have SHBG movement, you don't want total testosterone measures to be a result of that.


all other tests were normal. cholesterol was awesome etc

as for tolerance, i found it applied to pretty much everything that has an acute "felt" effect

Thanks!

I am more picky about cholesterol, and might even say a "normal" panel is far from awesome so I'll take you at face value.

A word on it though - If your hypothalamic axis doesn't agree with it...in other words, if LH and/or test levels are down and cholesterol is NORMAL; this is an abnormal panel.

Cholesterol is your substrate and it does the things it does for a reason. Sorry, I am pretty anal on that one, but in my defense...its only because most physicians see low HDL or high LDL and suggest they are BAD/BAD/BAD. Even a high HDL needs to be watched as it can be VERY atherogenic. LDL is substrate for androgen production, so you have already walked down a path most physicians have little experience with, BUT I am happier to learn the cycle was only 4 weeks in duration, so you probably are fine.


D_
 
D-Aspartic-Acid

my only guess could be the fact it was an acid and that alone... increasing acidity with any source in an environment where you may already be borderline on having acid reflux could cause you to have "heartburn".

Ive noticed similar things when my diet is already fairly acidic and then I take a supplement containing acids in it that immediately cause acid reflux.

Try smaller doses split up through the day with something like milk or other sources of calcium.
 
I used several (mix) brands and bulk powders all above (Standardized 40-75% L-Dopa)

Pretty strong extracts. The wealth of data centers on the 15 and 20's.

Did 40% seem as bad as 75%?


i could scan my full blood work(like 5 or 6 pages). if that would be usefull to you?

I do it for a living and if you could scratch out any pertinent info you wouldn't want the world to know about you. I think it could prove useful for a lot of readers.


why did DAA cause me heartburn like never before!

D-Aspartic-Acid

my only guess could be the fact it was an acid and that alone... increasing acidity with any source in an environment where you may already be borderline on having acid reflux could cause you to have "heartburn".

Ive noticed similar things when my diet is already fairly acidic and then I take a supplement containing acids in it that immediately cause acid reflux.

Try smaller doses split up through the day with something like milk or other sources of calcium.

What he said....I have no additional reasoning for reflux symptomatology. Do you tend to take your DAA in the upright position (not lying down) and closer to the AM (as opposed to later in the day)?


D_
 
ussually in the am and sitting up, might have to reduce amounts, but hey im on hrt now, so might do me no good any ways!
 
dr, what are your thoughts on using androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione aka erase as an ai?
 
ussually in the am and sitting up, might have to reduce amounts, but hey im on hrt now, so might do me no good any ways!

Probably not noticeable from a body comp standpoint anyway.


dr, what are your thoughts on using androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione aka erase as an ai?

I have no experience with it to rank it as an effective AI (nor am I certain it works through that mechanism), but if someone could point me to research outside of VIDA, I would be appreciative and possibly able to give a different assessment seeing how people are frequently questioning me on this product and I have no idea how best to direct them.

When searching the suggested compound, the only literature I could pull was the following:

Endocrinol Exp. 1971 Dec;5(4):205-10.

Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione: isolation from urine and formation from 7-keto-dehydro-epiandrosterone sulphate under various conditions of hydrolysis.


Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed.
PMID:4274027[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

which effectively tells me nothing in the way of anti-estrogen properties. If anyone again - knows of something I am missing outside of ad campagin, please post it. I am willing to learn for sure.


D_
 
thanks d!! also posted an awesome addition to the if way of eating, in the meal frequency thread! which is a bit different if you get a chance to take a look at it,

AND A PM TO YOU!! if u ever have the time?

thanks, much respect doc d!
 
Probably not noticeable from a body comp standpoint anyway.




I have no experience with it to rank it as an effective AI (nor am I certain it works through that mechanism), but if someone could point me to research outside of VIDA, I would be appreciative and possibly able to give a different assessment seeing how people are frequently questioning me on this product and I have no idea how best to direct them.

When searching the suggested compound, the only literature I could pull was the following:

Endocrinol Exp. 1971 Dec;5(4):205-10.

Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione: isolation from urine and formation from 7-keto-dehydro-epiandrosterone sulphate under various conditions of hydrolysis.


Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed.
PMID:4274027[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

which effectively tells me nothing in the way of anti-estrogen properties. If anyone again - knows of something I am missing outside of ad campagin, please post it. I am willing to learn for sure.


D_


THIS IS PART OF THE WRITE UP OF Applied Nutriceuticals® FREE TEST (wich has the same stuff found in ERASE)


Regulating Estrogen and Increasing Testosterone via Suicide Aromatase Inhibition: The Role of 3, 7-Keto DHEA:

3, 7-Keto DHEA is a naturally-occurring metabolite of dehydroepiandosterone (DHEA), and is a potent aromatase inhibitor with some very unique qualities. Aromatase is an enzyme that transforms testosterone into estrogen, and the more active aromatase is, the more estrogen will ultimately be present. Therefore, aromatase inhibitors significantly decrease the level of estrogen in the body. This is important as increased estrogen in men can signal the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis (HPTA) to shut down the release of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). GnRH signals the production of luteinizing hormone (LH), which signals the production of testosterone. Therefore, increased estrogen levels can lower endogenous testosterone production.

3, 7-Keto DHEA has demonstrated strong ability to lower estrogen, thus mitigating this effect. It has a high binding affinity (Ki value = 0.22 mM) to the aromatase enzyme, and binds in an irreversible manner, making it a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. Ki Values measure how efficiently a compound binds to its associated receptor. The lower the Ki value; the higher the binding affinity. This inhibition allows for the production of less estradiol (E2) and estrone (E1) and allows the user of the compound to maintain a higher level of testosterone; hence improving the Testosterone: Estrogen (T:E) ratio. The mechanism through which aromatase inhibitors raise testosterone is fairly simple; the HPTA senses low levels of estrogen, and because the body seeks to maintain homeostasis (it likes to maintain at least some estrogen, even in men), there is a concurrent increase in the amount of testosterone that is being produced, as a way to compensate for the low estrogen levels. The increased testosterone levels normally will result in increased estrogen since there is no estrogen being produced. Essentially, the brain is tricked into trying to produce more estrogen, so it releases more luteinizing

hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) and subsequently more LH, leading to even higher testosterone levels.

All aromatase inhibitors share this characteristic of positively altering the T:E ratio, and all will raise serum testosterone levels in men, which has been referenced in numerous studies. 3,7-Keto DHEA is comparable in potency to several other commonly available aromatase inhibitors. As explained above, a lower Ki value means higher potency, making it more potent than both Formestane and Exemestane, and very similar to androstentrione (ATD).


3,7-Keto DHEA is unique from other commonly used aromatase inhibitors in sports supplements in that it is a natural metabolite of 7-Keto DHEA and it cannot directly bind to the androgen receptor. 3,7-Keto DHEA (like 7-Keto DHEA) also cannot convert to testosterone, estrogen, or progesterone via any type of enzymatic reaction, so by strict definition it cannot in any way be considered a prohormone. This clearly differentiates it from other recently banned products that allow for the direct conversion to a controlled substance in the body (in either in trace amounts or full-scale conversion). This can not occur with 3,7-Keto DHEA, as it is formed naturally in humans from 7-Keto DHEA and can be readily found in humans in the amount of 5-7 ug/day.


André C, Berthelot A, Robert JF, Thomassin M, Guillaume YC.Testimony of the correlation between DHEA and bioavailable testosterone using a biochromatographic concept: effect of two salts. J Pharm Biomed An., 2003 Dec 4: 33(5): 911-21.

J. Raman, P. Schlegel AROMATASE INHIBITORS FOR MALE INFERTILITY The Journal of Urology, Volume 167, Issue 2, Pages 624-629.

Burnett-Bowie SA, Roupenian KC, Dere ME, Lee H, Leder BZ. Effects of aromatase inhibition in hypogonadal older men: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2008 Jun 25. [Epub ahead of print]


Schubert K, Wehrberger K, Hobe G; Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione: isolation from urine and formation from 7-keto-dehydro-epiandrosterone sulphate under various conditions of hydrolysis; Endocrinol Exp. 1971 Dec;5(4):205-10

Numazawa M, Mutsumi A, Tachibana M, Hoshi K; Synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogs as conformational and catalytic probes for the active site of aromatase; J Med Chem. 1994 Jul 8;37(14):2198-205

Safarinejad MR, Safarinejad S. Efficacy of selenium and/or N-acetyl-cysteine for improving semen parameters in infertile men: a double-blind, placebo controlled, randomized study.J Urol. 2009 Feb;181(2):741-51. Epub 2008 Dec 16.

Rohle D, Wilborn C, Taylor L, Mulligan C, Kreider R, Willoughby D. Effects of eight weeks of an alleged aromatase inhibiting nutritional supplement 6-OXO (androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione) on serum hormone profiles and clinical safety markers in resistance-trained, eugonadal males. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Oct 19;4:13.
 
blod tests!

ok here you go. these blood tests were made almost 2 years after i started with DAA.

mostly testforce and tesforce 2 with occasional dabbling in powder form from smartpowders

im very interested inwhat you think. :-)

also here is an old one i found, if you need a pre DAA referance
 

Attachments

THIS IS PART OF THE WRITE UP OF Applied Nutriceuticals® FREE TEST (wich has the same stuff found in ERASE)


Regulating Estrogen and Increasing Testosterone via Suicide Aromatase Inhibition: The Role of 3, 7-Keto DHEA:

3, 7-Keto DHEA is a naturally-occurring metabolite of dehydroepiandosterone (DHEA), and is a potent aromatase inhibitor with some very unique qualities. Aromatase is an enzyme that transforms testosterone into estrogen, and the more active aromatase is, the more estrogen will ultimately be present. Therefore, aromatase inhibitors significantly decrease the level of estrogen in the body. This is important as increased estrogen in men can signal the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis (HPTA) to shut down the release of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). GnRH signals the production of luteinizing hormone (LH), which signals the production of testosterone. Therefore, increased estrogen levels can lower endogenous testosterone production.

3, 7-Keto DHEA has demonstrated strong ability to lower estrogen, thus mitigating this effect. It has a high binding affinity (Ki value = 0.22 mM) to the aromatase enzyme, and binds in an irreversible manner, making it a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. Ki Values measure how efficiently a compound binds to its associated receptor. The lower the Ki value; the higher the binding affinity. This inhibition allows for the production of less estradiol (E2) and estrone (E1) and allows the user of the compound to maintain a higher level of testosterone; hence improving the Testosterone: Estrogen (T:E) ratio. The mechanism through which aromatase inhibitors raise testosterone is fairly simple; the HPTA senses low levels of estrogen, and because the body seeks to maintain homeostasis (it likes to maintain at least some estrogen, even in men), there is a concurrent increase in the amount of testosterone that is being produced, as a way to compensate for the low estrogen levels. The increased testosterone levels normally will result in increased estrogen since there is no estrogen being produced. Essentially, the brain is tricked into trying to produce more estrogen, so it releases more luteinizing

hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) and subsequently more LH, leading to even higher testosterone levels.

All aromatase inhibitors share this characteristic of positively altering the T:E ratio, and all will raise serum testosterone levels in men, which has been referenced in numerous studies. 3,7-Keto DHEA is comparable in potency to several other commonly available aromatase inhibitors. As explained above, a lower Ki value means higher potency, making it more potent than both Formestane and Exemestane, and very similar to androstentrione (ATD).


3,7-Keto DHEA is unique from other commonly used aromatase inhibitors in sports supplements in that it is a natural metabolite of 7-Keto DHEA and it cannot directly bind to the androgen receptor. 3,7-Keto DHEA (like 7-Keto DHEA) also cannot convert to testosterone, estrogen, or progesterone via any type of enzymatic reaction, so by strict definition it cannot in any way be considered a prohormone. This clearly differentiates it from other recently banned products that allow for the direct conversion to a controlled substance in the body (in either in trace amounts or full-scale conversion). This can not occur with 3,7-Keto DHEA, as it is formed naturally in humans from 7-Keto DHEA and can be readily found in humans in the amount of 5-7 ug/day.


André C, Berthelot A, Robert JF, Thomassin M, Guillaume YC.Testimony of the correlation between DHEA and bioavailable testosterone using a biochromatographic concept: effect of two salts. J Pharm Biomed An., 2003 Dec 4: 33(5): 911-21.

J. Raman, P. Schlegel AROMATASE INHIBITORS FOR MALE INFERTILITY The Journal of Urology, Volume 167, Issue 2, Pages 624-629.

Burnett-Bowie SA, Roupenian KC, Dere ME, Lee H, Leder BZ. Effects of aromatase inhibition in hypogonadal older men: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2008 Jun 25. [Epub ahead of print]


Schubert K, Wehrberger K, Hobe G; Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione: isolation from urine and formation from 7-keto-dehydro-epiandrosterone sulphate under various conditions of hydrolysis; Endocrinol Exp. 1971 Dec;5(4):205-10

Numazawa M, Mutsumi A, Tachibana M, Hoshi K; Synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogs as conformational and catalytic probes for the active site of aromatase; J Med Chem. 1994 Jul 8;37(14):2198-205

Safarinejad MR, Safarinejad S. Efficacy of selenium and/or N-acetyl-cysteine for improving semen parameters in infertile men: a double-blind, placebo controlled, randomized study.J Urol. 2009 Feb;181(2):741-51. Epub 2008 Dec 16.

Rohle D, Wilborn C, Taylor L, Mulligan C, Kreider R, Willoughby D. Effects of eight weeks of an alleged aromatase inhibiting nutritional supplement 6-OXO (androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione) on serum hormone profiles and clinical safety markers in resistance-trained, eugonadal males. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Oct 19;4:13.


The first three studies cited are completely inconsequential to the product. They may be trying to make an association to an AI, but it is unclear where this data comes into play in its development.

The Schubert, et al 1971 paper tells me nothing.

I'd be interested in tracking down the paper I highlighted in red above, however - to at least see how they're translating affinity data.

I have no idea why they cite the last one at all...is 6-oxo even in this product?

The study on NAC really seemed to require the Selenium to be most efficacious and yet no selenium is found in this product.

Are people actually reporting success with this product?


D_
 
ok here you go. these blood tests were made almost 2 years after i started with DAA.

mostly testforce and tesforce 2 with occasional dabbling in powder form from smartpowders

im very interested inwhat you think. :-)

also here is an old one i found, if you need a pre DAA referance

You have awesome insulin sensitivity from your lipid panel; but I would recommend you get a Lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) drawn for completion of your lipid risk as you harbor an isolated low HDL (with normal apoB particles). It's the next step so you can judge the need for potentially adding niacin (if it comes back elevated).


Your "liver enzyme" panels are inconsequential in their modest elevation as you are a lifter and unless you spent a minimum of 48 hours away from the gym prior to the test and in light of no serum Creatine Kinase; those values are uninterpretable.


Now, I cannot begin to imagine why the hell your direct bilirubin is so elevated (remind me if you had any liver ailments again).


I would probably also check a Vitamin B12 level and Methylmalonic Acid as your Hemoglobin/Hematocrit/MCV are not what I would call "normal" although the labs you used did not offer a Red Cell Distribution Width, so an MCV > 90 needs to be evaluated further with these numbers.


I assume we already went over testosterone and estrogen levels earlier in this thread, yes (just remind me please as I look at probably 200-300 sets of labs daily)?


D_
 
hi doc... what your thoughts about formestane (transdermal version) ?

i have a couple of bottles of formestane transdermal and i want to use it as a standalone or with daa...

any thought for the doses? about the conversion 4-oha -> 4-oht?

thanks a lot...
 
You have awesome insulin sensitivity from your lipid panel; but I would recommend you get a Lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) drawn for completion of your lipid risk as you harbor an isolated low HDL (with normal apoB particles). It's the next step so you can judge the need for potentially adding niacin (if it comes back elevated).


Your "liver enzyme" panels are inconsequential in their modest elevation as you are a lifter and unless you spent a minimum of 48 hours away from the gym prior to the test and in light of no serum Creatine Kinase; those values are uninterpretable.


Now, I cannot begin to imagine why the hell your direct bilirubin is so elevated (remind me if you had any liver ailments again).


I would probably also check a Vitamin B12 level and Methylmalonic Acid as your Hemoglobin/Hematocrit/MCV are not what I would call "normal" although the labs you used did not offer a Red Cell Distribution Width, so an MCV > 90 needs to be evaluated further with these numbers.


I assume we already went over testosterone and estrogen levels earlier in this thread, yes (just remind me please as I look at probably 200-300 sets of labs daily)?


D_

Test and estro were not done this time.

Billirubin has been elevated for as long as ive had blood tests. funnily enough it normalises after i complete any given cycle+pct!!

HDL is low, but considering total cholesterol is ridiculously low,ldl and triglycerides pretty low, is it still an issue?

Also why would my cholesterol be so low? id like it to be around the 130-140 mark. but is there really anything i can do?

As for B12 it hovers between 600 and 900. i do understand about the Hemoglobin but weirdly enough it was always low and now 1 point lower! b12 is always great and anemia was def discounted after some test including iron came back normal.

if you need test and estro tests i can dig up some old ones? i have pre, during and post tests levels after one particular cycle.

Thanks again Doc!
 
Androsta-3,5-diene,7,17-dione is a very strong AI. You cant just type that molecule name into google scholar and hope to get the studies. Its Ki is slighter lower than Aromasin. The 1+ year of anecdotal feedback also confirms its strength

Numazawa M, Mutsumi A, Tachibana M, Hoshi K; Synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogs as conformational and catalytic probes for the active site of aromatase; J Med Chem. 1994 Jul 8;37(14):2198-2
 
The first three studies cited are completely inconsequential to the product. They may be trying to make an association to an AI, but it is unclear where this data comes into play in its development.

The Schubert, et al 1971 paper tells me nothing.

I'd be interested in tracking down the paper I highlighted in red above, however - to at least see how they're translating affinity data.

I have no idea why they cite the last one at all...is 6-oxo even in this product?

The study on NAC really seemed to require the Selenium to be most efficacious and yet no selenium is found in this product.

Are people actually reporting success with this product?


D_

here the PDF file : Invalid Link Removed
 
Androsta-3,5-diene,7,17-dione is a very strong AI. You cant just type that molecule name into google scholar and hope to get the studies. Its Ki is slighter lower than Aromasin. The 1+ year of anecdotal feedback also confirms its strength

I have been part of this industry for 20 years and if you were somehow directing this to me; you are surely off-base that I type anything into a GOOGLE scholar. And, in my estimation placebo accounts for 95+% of supplement "successes" as virtual anecdote would also suggest 1 day on most product produced "crazy results" (fill in the explative of your choice). Also, am well aware of what goes into marketing on a bb message board and the way plenty of lab tests are altered with alternative ingredients in pre-markets, so that is of little interest to me either.



Numazawa M, Mutsumi A, Tachibana M, Hoshi K; Synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogs as conformational and catalytic probes for the active site of aromatase; J Med Chem. 1994 Jul 8;37(14):2198-2

As I had also suggested that I was curious to view this paper - perhaps you could go re-read my response and the highlight in red.

I have since tracked the paper down to see it was done in placental microsomes (a far cry from a human trial) without any kind of accountability for oral bioavailability (as such it's Ki means diddley) and ONLY in the presence of NADPH - if you possess a different translation, then by all means...please post it. I was trying to discuss it with sheer suggestion that I had no experience with the ingredient based on a question I received and I "was willing to learn." Again, I invite you to re-read my statements if you are struggling with this. I understand that you are with the company (and were, as such, very quick to draw your counter-"attack" BUT again, I have done this in one thread already and I simply don't have time for pointless back and forth...especially when the vested interest is identified) and you have somehow felt this to be an apparent attack which it was not.

If I am asked if this would be a suitable AI to accompany a DAA product...then my answer is..."I have no freaking idea based on the data provided." And, to be honest, it would be anyone's guess, but nothing more.


D_
 
Test and estro were not done this time.

Billirubin has been elevated for as long as ive had blood tests. funnily enough it normalises after i complete any given cycle+pct!!

Do your cycles usually consist of orals?


HDL is low, but considering total cholesterol is ridiculously low,ldl and triglycerides pretty low, is it still an issue?

IF HDL is low in a background of elevated Lp(a), then yes...it would be an issue...low Lp(a) confers much less a concern. I simply suggest you discuss the potential of this additional lab with your doc.



Also why would my cholesterol be so low? id like it to be around the 130-140 mark. but is there really anything i can do?

I agree cholesterol tells us a lot about a patient's biochemistry and if your testosterone levels are heightened or even if you are supplementing with a lot of fatty acids, it can alter this profile precipitously. So...the test and estro would help, but at this time...if you have no clinical symptoms; for nothing more than to confirm what the cholesterol means if you are still interested.


As for B12 it hovers between 600 and 900. i do understand about the Hemoglobin but weirdly enough it was always low and now 1 point lower! b12 is always great and anemia was def discounted after some test including iron came back normal.

Yeah, I am not sure I would have thought iron given your MCV, but I didn't see an RDW in the listing, so it would be less clear to me.

Do you drink alcohol a lot?


if you need test and estro tests i can dig up some old ones? i have pre, during and post tests levels after one particular cycle.

Thanks again Doc!

Could be of value...let's check em out.



D_
 
I have been part of this industry for 20 years and if you were somehow directing this to me; you are surely off-base that I type anything into a GOOGLE scholar. And, in my estimation placebo accounts for 95+% of supplement "successes" as virtual anecdote would also suggest 1 day on most product produced "crazy results" (fill in the explative of your choice). Also, am well aware of what goes into marketing on a bb message board and the way plenty of lab tests are altered with alternative ingredients in pre-markets, so that is of little interest to me either.





As I had also suggested that I was curious to view this paper - perhaps you could go re-read my response and the highlight in red.

I have since tracked the paper down to see it was done in placental microsomes (a far cry from a human trial) without any kind of accountability for oral bioavailability (as such it's Ki means diddley) and ONLY in the presence of NADPH - if you possess a different translation, then by all means...please post it. I was trying to discuss it with sheer suggestion that I had no experience with the ingredient based on a question I received and I "was willing to learn." Again, I invite you to re-read my statements if you are struggling with this. I understand that you are with the company (and were, as such, very quick to draw your counter-"attack" BUT again, I have done this in one thread already and I simply don't have time for pointless back and forth...especially when the vested interest is identified) and you have somehow felt this to be an apparent attack which it was not.

If I am asked if this would be a suitable AI to accompany a DAA product...then my answer is..."I have no freaking idea based on the data provided." And, to be honest, it would be anyone's guess, but nothing more.


D_

Relax.

Notice in my post I did not quote anything you said. My post was not directed at you, it was directed at those who posted studies on the compound that had nothing to do with its activity as an aromatase inhibitor. The studies they posted are the studies that come up when you type the chemical name into google.

I was PM'd by a member of this forum to look at the thread

Hey ND you might want do look at the DAA thread in the Houser forum. Looks like his recent absence has left him unaware of the compound.

That is why I posted in the thread in the first place.

You're right, there are no human trials on the ingredient. There are just hundreds of thousands of satisfied users over the past one and a half years, including thousands that are members here.

This thread is about DAA. Carry on. Sorry for the divergence.
 
It is a legitimate question for DAA users as we have talked about the appropriateness of an AI with DAA cycling or static use throughout this thread (unsure if you had an opportunity and/or even cared to read the entire thing; of which I wouldn't fault you either way...this is one of a few threads on here that essentially "blew up" and the concomitant use of AIs was a big discussion point somewhere along the way.

D_
 
Do your cycles usually consist of orals?

Mostly orals, but even when i did non methyls and transdermal 1-t + 4ad the results were almost the same as the orals past and present(except m-1t which was pure nasty on all counts)

IF HDL is low in a background of elevated Lp(a), then yes...it would be an issue...low Lp(a) confers much less a concern. I simply suggest you discuss the potential of this additional lab with your doc.

Ill get the Lp(a) asap.


I agree cholesterol tells us a lot about a patient's biochemistry and if your testosterone levels are heightened or even if you are supplementing with a lot of fatty acids, it can alter this profile precipitously. So...the test and estro would help, but at this time...if you have no clinical symptoms; for nothing more than to confirm what the cholesterol means if you are still interested.




Yeah, I am not sure I would have thought iron given your MCV, but I didn't see an RDW in the listing, so it would be less clear to me.

Do you drink alcohol a lot?

I do drink a good amount but only 1 day a week(2 days a week on rare occasions) - i.e like 6 or 7 drinks. and never on cycle


Could be of value...let's check em out.

cycle and blood tests from 2006:
Invalid Link Removed

cycle and blood tests from 2007:
Invalid Link Removed

D_

Thanks Doc!

is it at all possible that my heamoglobin is lowered from DAA? since that is the only thing ive been on for 2 years+ ?
 
As I stated at the start of this thread, DAA causes my gyno to flare-up big time. After several weeks of formestane everything now back to normal. The knot under my areola is barely noticeable. Man, I hate to see formestane go. It’s the best AI on the market. I have found that I can take DAA on an intermittent basis without issue. Although there is probably little benefit to using it intermittently since it must build to be effective. My favorite pre-work drink is a mix of Wyked and Ultima. I also add a little Augmatine and extra Beta Alanine for good measure. Wyked contains DAA and Ulitima is second to none as far as focus is concerned.
 
why dont you get testes for test/free test and E2 while on no supps to get an idea of your baseline
cause your results are not typical
 
As I stated at the start of this thread, DAA causes my gyno to flare-up big time. After several weeks of formestane everything now back to normal. The knot under my areola is barely noticeable. Man, I hate to see formestane go. It’s the best AI on the market. I have found that I can take DAA on an intermittent basis without issue. Although there is probably little benefit to using it intermittently since it must build to be effective. My favorite pre-work drink is a mix of Wyked and Ultima. I also add a little Augmatine and extra Beta Alanine for good measure. Wyked contains DAA and Ulitima is second to none as far as focus is concerned.

Solely because dinoiii requested the name of the other thread was changed as well, agmatine* not augmatine. :)
 
As I stated at the start of this thread, DAA causes my gyno to flare-up big time. After several weeks of formestane everything now back to normal. The knot under my areola is barely noticeable. Man, I hate to see formestane go. It’s the best AI on the market. I have found that I can take DAA on an intermittent basis without issue. Although there is probably little benefit to using it intermittently since it must build to be effective. My favorite pre-work drink is a mix of Wyked and Ultima. I also add a little Augmatine and extra Beta Alanine for good measure. Wyked contains DAA and Ulitima is second to none as far as focus is concerned.

what doses of formestane you have used?

you used it with daa or stand alone?
 
I use CEL formestane. I normally use two squirts in the morning and two in the afternoon. I rub it right on the nipples. If I use DAA on a daily basis I use formestane daily to control estro sides. As I said I can use DAA on workout days only without issue.
 
Is there any evidence that the chelated version used by PA is superior to regular old bulk DAA?

Has anyone else experienced tension headaches from DAA? Im not sure if its just coincidental, but during my last run of DAA I got terrible tension headaches a few times a week from lifting and sex.
 
I just read the whole thread. You spoke about how you enjoy Formestane transdermal version by CEL. What dosage did you take/would recommend a 180lb male to take as a test booster? Does this have the potential to cause testosterone shut down (not an anabolic dose, just enough to be an AI test booster)?

at one point you said you would run DAA 5 days on two days off. at another point you also said you would run DAA for month 1 2 and 3, while only running an AI for month 2. How would this work for month 2 with formestane? would you still go 5 days on, two days off for daa? would formestane follow the same schedule?
 
I just read the whole thread. You spoke about how you enjoy Formestane transdermal version by CEL. What dosage did you take/would recommend a 180lb male to take as a test booster? Does this have the potential to cause testosterone shut down (not an anabolic dose, just enough to be an AI test booster)?

If this question was for me, then it depends on what we are trying to accomplish. If sheerly to avoid potential for gyno while using; then I would say 4-8 squirts to the bilateral nipple is MORE than sufficient. I would presume it could as it is steroidal in structure and so forth (I believe I have had this discussion with many before and it was part of my underground newsletter); but theoretically at least, DAA would prevent some of that shutdown acting both on the testes as well as pituitary.


at one point you said you would run DAA 5 days on two days off. at another point you also said you would run DAA for month 1 2 and 3, while only running an AI for month 2. How would this work for month 2 with formestane? would you still go 5 days on, two days off for daa? would formestane follow the same schedule?

I have NEVER said - "run DAA at any length" - that decision is up to you (and a personal one at best with all the presented information)! What I have said is that IF you run it this way (and if there is concern more from mucuna used as an adjunct - use the mucuna ... say M-F). You would not employ mucuna "necessarily" if using it for a duration that did NOT extend > 4 weeks as prolactin increases are more of a long-term effect. I also am suggesting that an AI (especially if prone to E2 effects) might best be employed from Day 1 onward. That's a bit different than the mucuna thoughts.

My job here is NOT to tell anyone to use anything; just present things in as best an OBJECTIVE way as I possibly can (taking no "sides" if sides are to be had in debate). I would hope with all the information presented, people could make a truly INFORMED decision on what and if to use something. Hopefully this makes sense.


D_
 
Invalid Link Removed what feelings did you notice on DAA the year you took it?

example, more high testosterone feeling, sense of well being, higher libido, hyper awareness.

also did you have pre daa tests done and were they after you have not used any hormonals for quite some time?

one more- can I get your before and after (and how long) daa test results?

------------------------------

I have been taking it for 3-4 months (and I take a week off every 6-8 weeks of it) and unless its in my head I feel different like I guess my testosterone levels were boosted after all. I seem to notice a brain boosting effect I might not have had while on as well
 
Sorry, I can't change the spelling of agmatine this site won't let me.

As far as Erase as and AI, I have been asking for blood tests to prove it efficacy for months. Yet none have been forthcoming. The reason I question is ability to control estrogen is because when used as and AI in conjunction with DAA I still have gyno flare ups. However, with Formestane this does not happen. Yet, they claim that it is more potent than Formestane. Since my Formestane is topical and Erase in oral maybe I’m not comparing apples to apples. Maybe I just need to increase the dosage of Erase.
 
the issue I forsee in chasing an effective dose of Erase as an AI means that youll be killing cortisol to no end and likewise your joints...

Personally Id rather just use what I KNOW works.... I would love to see some real tests and studies done on erase as an AI in vivo...
 
Sorry, I can't change the spelling of agmatine this site won't let me.

As far as Erase as and AI, I have been asking for blood tests to prove it efficacy for months. Yet none have been forthcoming. The reason I question is ability to control estrogen is because when used as and AI in conjunction with DAA I still have gyno flare ups. However, with Formestane this does not happen. Yet, they claim that it is more potent than Formestane. Since my Formestane is topical and Erase in oral maybe I’m not comparing apples to apples. Maybe I just need to increase the dosage of Erase.

For what its worth I had a potentially bad gyno flare up about 5 days ago where under my left nipple not only did it grow in size but it got pretty painful (I got this from puberty but it is not usually an issue). Using erase the past 4 days at 5 caps per day and the tenderness is completely gone and size seems to be slightly reduced. I am going to reduce the erase to 4 caps over the next few days and then ride it out at 3 caps.
 
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