SUBRES IS OUT

Taurus Nut.

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SUBRES may be the most advanced trans-resveratrol (commonly known as resveratrol) product on the market. Using unique orally delivery that was shown in the preliminary literature to be up to more than 250X more bioavailable than oral capsules.

Resveratrol has been shown in preliminary scientific literature to boost testosterone, reduce aging, lower blood pressure and act as a natural SERM for PCT.

We theorize our dose should give the same results as taking 5000mg of an oral capsule and will remain active longer! Resveratrol is a wonder nutrient and should be part of every bodybuilder's on and off cycle support supplements.

GREAT TASTING!

Serving Size: 1 ml
Servings Per Container: 120
Ingredients:
Resveratrol 98% 20mg
HydroxyPropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin 100mg


Other ingredients: Water, Lecithin, N&A Flavor (grape), Sucralose, Citric Acid, EDTA, K Sorbate, NA/K Benzoate, D-Limonone
 
Nice, definitely interested in this :D
 
I ran the numbers on this and something is not right. You are saying that the dose at 20 mgs, per your write up above, is equivalent to 5 grams of oral resveratrol. You are aware this equates to 4/1000ths of a percent or .004. This is also assuming an absorption rate of 100% and 100% bio-availability. Also, note that this implies that for every 1000 mgs/1 g you are only getting 4 mgs in an oral tablet. Back up the research, your math is wrong or your theorization is way off. I call BS on this; the math does not add. I wait eagerly to hear back... might have to see what PA has to say on this too, I am sure it will be a doozy.
 
All sorts of studies showing oral resveratrol to be very poor bioavailability. It is rapidly sulfated and glucoronidated in the intestines and thus excreted. I am not at all following your math.

"The oral bioavailability of resveratrol is almost zero due to rapid and extensive metabolism and the consequent formation of various metabolites as resveratrol glucuronides and resveratrol sulfates."

"Extensive metabolism in the intestine and liver results in an oral bioavailability considerably less than 1%."

"Another study by the University of Valencia, Spain ; found that after keeping the trans-resveratrol compound inside the mouth for up to one minute – without swallowing – the levels of unchanged resveratrol in the bloodstream were 250 times higher to those obtained with pills."

So, basically here's the logic:

1) the Valencia study shows that 1mg of resveratrol swished in the mouth is 250 times more bioavailable than in pills. This does have a "limit" though, you can't keep upping the dose. Based on the sublingual testing of androstenedione we know that the limit for sublingual absorption (at least in steroids) is about 20mg more than that gives no benefit. This is theoretically higher when you combine buccal with sublingual but 20mg seems like a good dose.

Now whether it is indeed 250 times higher or 100 times higher or 10 times higher even, it is a very good way to take resveratrol to get the effects that our customers want (testosterone etc...)
 
Well, that's the rub. It appears 2-3 doses per day is optimal but they need to be evenly spaced apart. Seems the mucosa has only a limited time it will take things through it based on the andro studies.
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Well, that's the rub. It appears 2-3 doses per day is optimal but they need to be evenly spaced apart. Seems the mucosa has only a limited time it will take things through it based on the andro studies.
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Reseveratrol seems absorb better in the morning and some studies suggest for each pound take 1mg of it so I can drop down in one shot?
 
I would do one shot per every 2-3 hours if you want to exceed one dose. I am not 100% following your question. With Resveratrol there is certainly conflicting data on the percentages absorbed but no one seems to indicate that it is well absorbed orally.

What do you mean drop down in one shot?
 
Taurus Nut. said:
I would do one shot per every 2-3 hours if you want to exceed one dose. I am not 100% following your question. With Resveratrol there is certainly conflicting data on the percentages absorbed but no one seems to indicate that it is well absorbed orally.

What do you mean drop down in one shot?
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(if the product states 3 times per day) i can take all the dose in one?
 
No, that's the point. I don't think you can take it all at once and be effective unfortunately it's self limiting if you look at other similar items.
 
Good price for a Res product too. How should people take this if they are concurrently taking 5aOHP(which is another oral delivery product)?
 
Space them at least an hour apart. I wonder if the mucosa sort of "shuts down" in response to too much delivery in that way which would make some sense.
 
Taurus Nut. said:
You aren't making any sense. Please restate your question in a logical fashion please...
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It was clear enough for you to answer and I make more sense than you in 95% of my posts. That said, there are still significant assumptions in your response. You say 250, 100, whatever it is you really don't know. All that you stated to be concrete is that 20mgs of a STEROID is the max amount of oral absorption, no mention of where you found the link to show resveratrol will have the same properties as said tested steroid. All your assumption may be spot on but that is a big leap. You should be used to difficult questions by now, I think you have been getting them for weeks after your tainted product debacle.
 
I did answer the question. I was just not 100% on your math but basically, yes oral bioavailabilty in a capsule could be considerably less than 1% like stated in the papers. Now other papers show higher too but the Valencia study is pretty interesting because it shows a direct comparison via blood plasma readings in humans. it's not assuming 100% on the mouth delivery, just showing that mg for mg under the rate limiting amount, mucosa based resvertatrol has the ability to get up to 250X more active resveratrol.

Additionally this is supported by the androstenedione papers. Steroids are also subject to similar enzymatic deactivation but the 3 hydroxyls on Resveratrol make it a more attractive target than hormones to these enzymes.
 
I think oral resveratrol availability increases something like 1000% with the inclusion of quercetin, IIRC. I'll have to dig a little.

Regardless, very interesting product and a good price point for a wonderful ingredient with 120 servings. Could I add it to wine? :D

Would it help to add quercetin and/or piperine?

Any idea at what dosage the SERM properties would really kick in?
 
Taurus Nut. said:
I did answer the question. I was just not 100% on your math but basically, yes oral bioavailabilty in a capsule could be considerably less than 1% like stated in the papers. Now other papers show higher too but the Valencia study is pretty interesting because it shows a direct comparison via blood plasma readings in humans. it's not assuming 100% on the mouth delivery, just showing that mg for mg under the rate limiting amount, mucosa based resvertatrol has the ability to get up to 250X more active resveratrol.

Additionally this is supported by the androstenedione papers. Steroids are also subject to similar enzymatic deactivation but the 3 hydroxyls on Resveratrol make it a more attractive target than hormones to these enzymes.
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That is what I was looking for. Something to consider adding to your write up as there are other inquisitive minds that will ask similar questions when they read what is on the Taurus website.
 
oufinny said:
That is what I was looking for. Something to consider adding to your write up as there are other inquisitive minds that will ask similar questions when they read what is on the Taurus website.
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Good advise. I will consider adding it.

Also, the quercetin makes total sense. We have been using competitive enzyme inhibitors for years now. I found (and lost) a paper showing androstendione to be converted to testosterone at like 70+ percent and over 90% was glucoronidated before it got out of the intestine. These enzymes are powerful detoxifiers and the body doesn't like hormones or flavones...
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Good advise. I will consider adding it.

Also, the quercetin makes total sense. We have been using competitive enzyme inhibitors for years now. I found (and lost) a paper showing androstendione to be converted to testosterone at like 70+ percent and over 90% was glucoronidated before it got out of the intestine. These enzymes are powerful detoxifiers and the body doesn't like hormones or flavones...
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You've been using quercetin for a while now with some of the LG products, so I'm sure your aware of it's benefits. ;)
 
Yes indeed. The only problem with Quercetin is that it inhibits 17bHSD which makes it not so good for steroids but good for Resveratrol.
 
MAxximal said:
this combo kills fat cells too ;)

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This plus the 3,3/3,5 dii product... plus some extra quercetin would be a nice fat cell killing stack eh? Im interested... maybe stacking this with some ursobolic... omg... Im lean bulking... but if I could I wouldnt mind running this to cut now... haha!
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Yes indeed. The only problem with Quercetin is that it inhibits 17bHSD which makes it not so good for steroids but good for Resveratrol.
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That makes perfect sense if your a company that's making products that utilize the 17bHSD pathway, to not include Quercetin in other products in the line up. Consumers like to stack, so it really helps maximize the number of products a customer can purchase if you can make them non-contradictory to one another. I like the sublingual approach.
MAxximal said:
this combo kills fat cells too ;)

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Interesting article.
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Yes indeed. The only problem with Quercetin is that it inhibits 17bHSD which makes it not so good for steroids but good for Resveratrol.
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Depending upon the kinetics of chronic administration that really isn't an issue because of the poor bioavailability issues surrounding quercetin. Discussed it in this write up:

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Still id probably avoid it with ph's.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
This is what I hate about resveratrol in vitro studies. They almost always administer levels of res that to date are unreachable in human plasma let alone target tissue. Or at least by well studied methods of delivery.
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I planning add this too to Res

Red Wine Extract (50% Polyphenols)
Grape Seed Extract
Lecithin Powder
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Invalid Link Removed


SUBRES may be the most advanced trans-resveratrol (commonly known as resveratrol) product on the market. Using unique orally delivery that was shown in the preliminary literature to be up to more than 250X more bioavailable than oral capsules.

Resveratrol has been shown in preliminary scientific literature to boost testosterone, reduce aging, lower blood pressure and act as a natural SERM for PCT.

We theorize our dose should give the same results as taking 5000mg of an oral capsule and will remain active longer! Resveratrol is a wonder nutrient and should be part of every bodybuilder's on and off cycle support supplements.

GREAT TASTING!

Serving Size: 1 ml
Servings Per Container: 120
Ingredients:
Resveratrol 98% 20mg
HydroxyPropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin 100mg


Other ingredients: Water, Lecithin, N&A Flavor (grape), Sucralose, Citric Acid, EDTA, K Sorbate, NA/K Benzoate, D-Limonone
Click to expand...


i dont mean to butt in to someone elses forum but i came across this while researching something unrelated. my comments are that such a formula, if formulated correctly (and i think you need a bit more HPBCD to completely solubilize the resveratrol and i know cuz i have made alot of res/HPBCD solutions for private sale) can increase the speed of absorption of res but not necessarily the bioavialability

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edit: ok i see that this is sublingual. that helps a little but its not gonna make it 250 times better than if you swallowed. dats crazy
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i dont mean to butt in to someone elses forum but i came across this while researching something unrelated. my comments are that such a formula, if formulated correctly (and i think you need a bit more HPBCD to completely solubilize the resveratrol and i know cuz i have made alot of res/HPBCD solutions for private sale) can increase the speed of absorption of res but not necessarily the bioavialability

Invalid Link Removed think you should make the formula sterile, and let users use their imagination. then we are talkinga bout something that will be exciting
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also i found that below a certain ph (unfortunately the pH which u usually need for stability and decent flavor) the res comes out of the complex and forms a precipitate

your formula perplexes me. if you had a true complex then why the lecitithin, limonene etc? all you would need is the water and preservative pretty much. in fact the limonene is not water miscible at all. its like you took a perfectly good water soluble complex and then screwed it up trying to emulsify it with other junk

you sure you have a complex there to begin with? as i told you i have done a ton of work on this, i know these complexes pretty darn well.
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Good advise. I will consider adding it.

Also, the quercetin makes total sense. We have been using competitive enzyme inhibitors for years now. I found (and lost) a paper showing androstendione to be converted to testosterone at like 70+ percent and over 90% was glucoronidated before it got out of the intestine. These enzymes are powerful detoxifiers and the body doesn't like hormones or flavones...
Click to expand...

not sure what you mean but you cant glucuronidate androstenedione. it has no hydroxyl groups
 
Patrick Arnold said:
not sure what you mean but you cant glucuronidate androstenedione. it has no hydroxyl groups
Click to expand...

"Why do chemists call helium, curium and barium 'the medical elements?' Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you 'barium!' Heheh."
 
Patrick Arnold said:
also i found that below a certain ph (unfortunately the pH which u usually need for stability and decent flavor) the res comes out of the complex and forms a precipitate

your formula perplexes me. if you had a true complex then why the lecitithin, limonene etc? all you would need is the water and preservative pretty much. in fact the limonene is not water miscible at all. its like you took a perfectly good water soluble complex and then screwed it up trying to emulsify it with other junk

you sure you have a complex there to begin with? as i told you i have done a ton of work on this, i know these complexes pretty darn well.
Click to expand...

We tested a few different configurations but yeah the lecithin and limmone doesn't work in that matrix very well at all but it was worth a shot. Yes, it actually complexes quite nicely but has some weird properties and separates in to two layers.

In the paper they used 1mg and compared blood plasma to a 250mg capsule.
 
Taurus Nut. said:
Read it, over 70% gets turned into testosterone which has a hydroxyl that is then glucoronidated and excreted.
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i think what you meant to say was it mostly got excreted as etiocholanolone and androsterone that were sulfated and glucuronidated. to a much lesser extent other metabolites

testosterone itself doesnt really get excreted in urine much even in conjugated form. of course you know this and you must have mistyped because you are a guru
 
Taurus Nut. said:
We tested a few different configurations but yeah the lecithin and limmone doesn't work in that matrix very well at all but it was worth a shot. Yes, it actually complexes quite nicely but has some weird properties and separates in to two layers.
.
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weird how that happens.

jeezus
 
Taurus Nut. said:
We tested a few different configurations but yeah the lecithin and limmone doesn't work in that matrix very well at all but it was worth a shot. Yes, it actually complexes quite nicely but has some weird properties and separates in to two layers.

In the paper they used 1mg and compared blood plasma to a 250mg capsule.
Click to expand...

Therefore, what is in the bottle? The label still says lecithin and limmone?
 
I'm sure I am missing something here isnt this a low does for resveratrol ?Sustain alpha has 100mg per serving or is this a different type ?
 
Jbrooks said:
I'm sure I am missing something here isnt this a low does for resveratrol ?Sustain alpha has 100mg per serving or is this a different type ?
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Sublingual route should make it more effective at a smaller dose.
 
It would appear that sublingual is the best form of administration, but I am sure that the other methods are good too.
 
Taurus Nut. said:
It would appear that sublingual is the best form of administration, but I am sure that the other methods are good too.
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Like anything else, they all have their places. Just depends on how and what you plan to take with it. If I planned on stacking with several other sublingual products, I would probably opt for a trans res product. If not, then sub would be the ticket.
 
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