Miss America Sexually Molested by TSA
- Thread starter ax1
- Start date
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
OK, this is so unfortunate, poor...poor beauty queen, how could they do such a thing to her? That poor...poor girl!!!
:bryce: Stop your crying! How would the news read if that woman had found a BOMB up her Vagina? She would be a HERO, thats what! There is no such thing as a perfect system, there are only choices, she chose the pat down, her choice. She also has the choice to drive vs. fly, or if it is overseas, take a boat, whatever the case may be, the old woman she speaks of that was trying to comfort her was right, it would be better to go through a scanner or get patted down vs. being blown-up!!! OK, I'll step down now...:soapbox:
:bryce: Stop your crying! How would the news read if that woman had found a BOMB up her Vagina? She would be a HERO, thats what! There is no such thing as a perfect system, there are only choices, she chose the pat down, her choice. She also has the choice to drive vs. fly, or if it is overseas, take a boat, whatever the case may be, the old woman she speaks of that was trying to comfort her was right, it would be better to go through a scanner or get patted down vs. being blown-up!!! OK, I'll step down now...:soapbox:
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
First off, I would go through the scanner, LOL, not too fond of the thought of a Body Cavity search. Second, I've been strip searched before crossing the Mexican/U.S. boarder and I had to bend over and spread them to prove there were no strings hanging out of my A$$ carrying drugs over. Did I like it... Nope, not one bit, was it my choice to go there knowing they had to right to do that upon my return, Yep! I just chalk it up there as Life Experience!
My wife is a grown woman, and to an extent mind you, can handle herself! But no, I wouldn't like it. My daughter is 7yrs old, so I would only allow it if they had a really good reason, like she beeped, they patted her down, she still beeped with the wand, then with either my wife or myself present stripped her down to her briefs and she still beeped with the wand, well then my friend it would be a choice of letting them look or me choosing to leave the airport, but I think at that point, LOL, I would be like "What the F@ck is up there, LOL! Seriously though, it would not be an experience I would choose to happen, but again would be my choice of whether to allow it or leave the airport!
So to answer your question, No of course I would not be happy about it, any of the above mentioned situations, but unfortunately it is the world we live in and is a necessary evil!!!
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
What a very doctor type answer there.
So riddle me this... what security have we gained?
Blergs
Well-known member
nono if i really wanted to blow somthing up i can stick a bomb in my ass and its too late by the patdown.... or maybe i get by... still peopel would die.
in the end they will do what they want.
do i like pat down? no.
but its still your choice ot fly or not. dont like it dont go.
not always there fult but for the most part:
dont want to crash a car dont drive, dont want lung cancer dont smoke, dont want AIDs use a condom. you get any of these.... DONT BITCH.
I dont want pat downs but if i really want to go somwhere its somthing i guess i have to deal with. there are worse things.......
AE14
Board Sponsor
you didnt answer DA's question. What security has been gained?
I will give you the short answer......none
Funny how in other countries where the threat is far more pronounced, they do not use this method as it has been shown to be ineffective
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Hey bro, ya know you really struck a nerve with your retort question. I thought about it all the way home from work (hour drive in traffic) and I wanted to compliment you on that, I mean you really made an excellent point. I still hold true to everything I said and how I responded, and maybe it's just the protective father/husband thing, but yes, it would bother me way more and be a much bigger deal if it were my wife, mother, or daughter! It really would and I don't have a perfect answer, it's an imperfect world, with an imperfect system, I really don't know what else to say, other than Excellent...excellent point!!!
I don't really think being a doctor has anything to do with my response, of course I was horsing around a little, but it was more of a human response when I was being serious and said it was her choice to get patted down, it was her choice to fly, and her feeling violated, which honestly we don't know the extent of it, we weren't there, I mean she may have truly been groped and then again she may have just felt violated by a normal procedural pat-down, we don't know. But I also hold true to what the old woman she talked about saying, that it is better than the alternative of risking a plane being blown up. We keep saying bomb, it could have been any sort of weapon, and she could have one or more accomplisses, who knows, she doesn't necessarily have to be the threat, just the transport of the threat, which could be a number of things, the plane itself like on 9-11 could be the bomb/gun and the terrorists the ones behind the trigger.
Again and again, I'll say it is not a perfect system, as mentioned below, if it were a bomb she could have blown up half the airport. But what if her intentions were to smuggle a weapon used by herself or an accomplis to hijack the plane and use it as a bomb like in 9-11, it would/could have successfully deterred that action. So am I ignorant enough to believe that we are all perfectly safe because of those checks? No. Are the annoying to me? Yes. Do I believe they are necessary? Yes. Is it a perfect system? No.
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Now your turn... Riddle me this... if you want to complain about something, then that must mean you have a better alternative... so let's hear it, please single-handedly solve our terrorist crisis... Please... I beg You! Hell Bro, you will win the Nobel Peace Prize for sure, so let's hear it, I'm all ears?
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StackedCop
Well-known member
Sub'd before the meat heads at anabolic minds single handily solve the terrorist problem. ( that's only if terrorist are even real )
I hope you all know the world is fxuk and there not a damn thing any of you can do about it. It makes me sad and sick to my stomach but this world we live in is fuxked and it will only get worse.
I hope you all know the world is fxuk and there not a damn thing any of you can do about it. It makes me sad and sick to my stomach but this world we live in is fuxked and it will only get worse.
ax1
Legend
Someone got shot in my city 2 days ago...Perhaps we need to roll out naked body scanners and do anal probes on the streets and at all the parks every minute of every day, you just never know. That makes alot of sense, better safe than sorry before someone else might get shot.
To those who dont mind having your wives or daughters molested by TSA...What would you do if you find out they caught (or you yourself) an std such as genital warps or herpes, because TSA does not change their gloves.
StackedCop
Well-known member
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Point taken, seriously... good point, at my expense, but good point! Really what I think you are trying to say is where do we draw the line and I'm not trying to say I know the answer to that. I'm not even really trying to say what is right or wrong, what is fair or unfair, well **** Life itself is a plethora of unfairness, but that is neither here nor there. My only point was we all have and make choices... right or wrong, fair or unfair, and you should not complain about a system or a method unless you think you have something better to offer, a more efficient, safer alternative, but to just complain to be complaining... sorry that doesn't accomplish anything and that is what I am saying, nothing more!
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
ax1
Legend
I just think that molestation of the passengers is just going way beyond that line.
There is a much better system actually that doesnt involve naked body scanners (which is subject to safety controversy and violation of personal rights), and doesnt involve evasive pat downs.
The system comes from one of the most terrorist prone countries on earth, Israel. Although there are no guarantees in life, they have been very successful with their system.
We actually get into it a bit in this recent thread, someone in there there is a discussion on Israeli security at airports. If your interested you can take a look at this interesting discussion and see different points of views there as well.
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ScottyDoc
Well-known member
OK, maybe I'm just too easy of a target on this one, I'm gonna have to bow out! My daughter is only 1yr older than that little girl and I have to say that was kinda hard to watch, I know the woman was being professional and just doing her job, but hearing the little girl voice her fear and disapproval of the situation was hard, therefore I could only imagine how I would have felt if that was coming from my daughter! I would like more information on how the Israelis do it better and/or safer?
For my sake at least admit, this is different & way worse than the original post? Because honestly, my comment would not have been the same! How or why I cannot explain, but I would not have a problem with that exact same search/pat-down done to my mom, wife, or sister, but my baby girl, my daughter, especially too young to even comprehend what the hell is going on, yeah, I agree completely, I have a problem with that!
But at the same damn time, just like in the Vietnam war & in the middle east, they used women and children to kill our soldiers at the expense/death of those women and children, the terrorist are the same way! I know this is sick, but it would not surprise me to hear of a terrorist surgically implanting a weapon or a bomb or something of that nature in a baby in order to get it past security, I mean they are sick in their thought process and that is really hard to combat, unfortunately it is impossible to combat politely and without hurting or offending others!
This is really a very controversial topic, I honestly jumped into this like a child running in the middle of the street without looking both ways!
jtterrible
Active member
/me raises hand
what if the TSA woman is hot.. and I want to be molested?.. then is it ok?
what if the TSA woman is hot.. and I want to be molested?.. then is it ok?
ax1
Legend
Im contacting Nutra and ordering them to block you from buying any more test boosters.
jtterrible
Active member
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I know this thread has already been pretty much done, but I will answer this portion anyway.
I refer you to Bruce Schnier, specifically the book "Beyond Fear" to gain an insight to the reactionary approach the US has been taking for a problem that takes complete proactivity.
The TSA is violating numerous security rules with their checkpoints. First off we only have one level of security, that dumb ass checkpoint that give people the warm and fuzzy (And that is all that is accomplishing). True defense is in layers, or Defense in Depth.
Back when it was just the metals detectors and random pat downs, people thought that was infallible, then the shoe bomber, then they started scanning the shoes and we thought we had it, then the underwear bomber... etc. (Each one of these people beat the so called infallible security procedures that were put in place in reaction to an event)
The big thing we do not look at.. people. We scan bodies, we xray packages, we grope nuts. Not one times does anyone look someone in the eyes. The Israelis perform behavioral assessments. They train people to read peoples behavior to see if people are nervous, shaky, scanning the room, etc. We don't look at people as people.
No one is saying get rid of the checkpoints all together (Albeit I am all for that), but go back to the metal detectors and random pats and present a more layered approach that is actually useful and unobtrusive.
Everyone keeps screaming this is their choice to get scanned and groped, but people fail to realize the airlines are private entitys with the ability to do what they want with their business, this is the US government forcing this upon their people who resoundingly do not want it.
The Dept. of Homeland Security is the biggest joke and only gives terrorist the win considering our way of life has been hampered and drastically altered since 2001.
drinkyboy
Well-known member
Well when I go flying I will spread my butt for anyone if it means getting to point B in one piece. The moment they stop doing this, I will opt to drive.There are many good actors out there and I would not feel comfortable taking flight just because someone said "well they all look safe to me!" I dont think observing body language is a reliable option.
schwellington
Well-known member
none really terroists are not stupid, they fight a 100% guerrilla war. See we are trying to stop terrorism but, since its so loosely formed and underground with no 1 established leader- it's almost impossible- the best we can do is try to foil their plans
JMO
I haven't lost hope in America yet, things are bad yeah, but there is still hope.
ax1
Legend
People get robbed and killed on the street all the time, Im surprised you make it out of your door.
Do you think you should spread your butt so you can get to point b in 1 piece every-time you step out your door? More people die on the street than from terrorism so its dangerous so lets call for naked body scanners for every-bodies front door.
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drinkyboy
Well-known member
O I thought we were talking about airport security procedures for a minute there.. What are you trying to say? Propose a solution to the pres and lets get this over with! If ya dont like it then dont fly. If you have the answer then tell someone. Your just knockin everybodies opinions and offering nothing.
ax1
Legend
My point is where do we draw the line? Its endless, suppose they blow up a shopping market, now we need to naked body scan everybody and pat everybody down just to go grocery shopping?
There is much to offer that has been discussed in this thread and another that does not utilize treating civilians and children as prisoners and humiliated them.
For example, Israeli airport security does not use offensive pat-downs and airport naked body scanners. In a country that is such a high target for terrorism they have amazing airport security and perhaps America should utilize some of their training and tactics in our own airports.
We all want airport security, but as some others have stated, what have we really gained by violating peoples privacy?
Didnt mean to knock your opinion in a offensive manner by the way, if I did I apologize. Just a touchy subject.
Tomahawk88
Well-known member
Well I know where I shouldnt travel then lol. I am by nature an observant person. So when Im in a big group of people I look around to see who is around me. Call it paranoid but that is just me. Ya I dont fly much only been on a plane once since 9/11.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Eh, I had something typed, but this isn't really worth responding to.
drinkyboy
Well-known member
No harm done ax1. I really do see the concern everyone has and I do admit that it has gotten way out of hand. Its sad that there are people out there that want to harm innocent people and as you put it, we are not safe anywhere. The world is on a downward spiral and its just getting worse as time passes. DAdams, please respond as you wanted, as im not affraid to admit I was wrong if your points are valid. Perhaps there is something that you could post that would change my mind because I would LOVE to support any option that shows promise. I hope someone can change my mind because I have just about lost all hope for peace.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I wasn't anything against you, just that I have repeated myself a few times and gave reference to some security essays and books and didn't feel like typing more out.
Just that your post minimized behavioral assessors, which has shown better results than the Security Theater we are putting on today. An actor can't exactly hide nervous quirks. If you look into a behavioral profilers eyes to little, they will notice, too much, they will notice, I am not trained, but there is more than attempting to control your actions. Most of what they look for is completely involuntary.
The US only puts on Security Theater to give some people the warm and fuzzy, it does nothing to stop attacks via the air route. Plus, considering it is almost unanimous by security professionals that the Air route will not be the next attack, terrorist have already won that battle, our way of life via air travel is forever changed, and that was their goal.
Man, I typed more than I planned!
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
I wasn't anything against you, just that I have repeated myself a few times and gave reference to some security essays and books and didn't feel like typing more out.
Just that your post minimized behavioral assessors, which has shown better results than the Security Theater we are putting on today. An actor can't exactly hide nervous quirks. If you look into a behavioral profilers eyes to little, they will notice, too much, they will notice, I am not trained, but there is more than attempting to control your actions. Most of what they look for is completely involuntary.
The US only puts on Security Theater to give some people the warm and fuzzy, it does nothing to stop attacks via the air route. Plus, considering it is almost unanimous by security professionals that the Air route will not be the next attack, terrorist have already won that battle, our way of life via air travel is forever changed, and that was their goal.
Man, I typed more than I planned!
:goodpost:
I know I bowed out of this topic, but I do feel compelled to say one last thing. I believe everyone has brought up some very good points, and whether this is a sensitive subject or not, it is one that needs healthy debate like this, I have had quite a few things brought to my attention and have been enlightened. Have my opinions changed, not completely, but I am definitely looking at this whole subject in a different light. So thanks again to AX1 for starting this thread and everyone else for participating!:usa:
ScottyDoc.... Out!
Tomahawk88
Well-known member
I wasn't anything against you, just that I have repeated myself a few times and gave reference to some security essays and books and didn't feel like typing more out.
Just that your post minimized behavioral assessors, which has shown better results than the Security Theater we are putting on today. An actor can't exactly hide nervous quirks. If you look into a behavioral profilers eyes to little, they will notice, too much, they will notice, I am not trained, but there is more than attempting to control your actions. Most of what they look for is completely involuntary.
The US only puts on Security Theater to give some people the warm and fuzzy, it does nothing to stop attacks via the air route. Plus, considering it is almost unanimous by security professionals that the Air route will not be the next attack, terrorist have already won that battle, our way of life via air travel is forever changed, and that was their goal.
Man, I typed more than I planned!
How familar are you with their security measures? I would assume they would still have some sort of lines to have more time to analyze people. Plus I bet that kind of training would take time. And lets be honest nobody thinks the TSA's are top flight security(Friday reference). It would have to be a completely new group of employees brought in. Would be interesting to see how long it would take to implement a new system of security in airports.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
And there you go, you are making my point for me.
The TSA is a private entity, they are like the federal reserve of air port security, and we know how well the Fed is for America.
No lines in Israeli Air ports. They use a defense in depth approach, a 6 layer technique that is unobtrusive. Do you remember how long it took to bite into the crap the TSA was selling, **** happened overnight.
I personally do not claim to have all the answers, but have the ideas and research of knowledgeable security leaders to back it up. Our current systems gains us absolutely nothing. And yes, I do agree the training takes time, you have to learn how to read people. Problem is we have wasted 10 years with this current crap. Not to mention it costs American Tax payers when the Airlines should be footing these bills.
Tomahawk88
Well-known member
Oh Im not disagreeing with you by any means. Just curious how long it would take to transition to new security measures. I wonder how much a TSA security employee is paid. Also how much it would cost to have quality employees to be airport security.
I would honestly be interested in seeing their airport security measures in person. Like the process of how they work. The way in which people go from getting into the airport to getting onto an airplane.
In my public speaking class this was a topic for the final exam. A group picked this and Im glad I wasnt a part of that group lol. Was more about the body scanners with their radiation though.
drinkyboy
Well-known member
Good posts DAdams. I get what your saying and it does hold solid ground. It will be interesting to see what changes are made in the future for airport security. I think more people need to stand up and demand changes be made. Maybe if mass amounts of citizens dont fly and demand changes they may consider alternate procedures? Hit em where it hurts the most...the wallet. I myself havent traveled by air in a good 3-4 years because its uncomfortable and expensive. Im sure anyone that has a decent build has noticed the lack of comfort and room associated with flying and I sure as hell aint coughing up the bucks for 1st class. I feel bad for those who have to travel frequently and have a little muscle on their frame. Ok im getting off track. Good points everyone!