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"THEORY" on androgen receptors

schwellington

schwellington

Well-known member
Do androgen receptors really get clogged? i have heard some people say(not just j) that you need to wait to let your androgen receptors refresh


thus saying that if i where to hypothetically hop on a cycle of dbol/test say january after being done with pct for 6 weeks would i still make gains?



or would my receptors be clogged- see this doesnt make any sense- the pros NEVER come off but they still make gains


im confused :(
 
Long cycles actually upregulate the androgen receptor, but also myostatin (that is why gains slow down on long injectable cycles). Pros stay on because BB is their job, they can't afford to come off. If they look soft for a show they'll get massacred.

I don't know how long myostatin takes to come down. You're probably pushing it a little, but not too bad.

I don't know how SARM effects myostatin.
 
schwellington said:
Do androgen receptors really get clogged? i have heard some people say(not just j) that you need to wait to let your androgen receptors refresh


thus saying that if i where to hypothetically hop on a cycle of dbol/test say january after being done with pct for 6 weeks would i still make gains?



or would my receptors be clogged- see this doesnt make any sense- the pros NEVER come off but they still make gains


im confused :(
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get a andro filter done
 
schwellington said:
Do androgen receptors really get clogged? i have heard some people say(not just j) that you need to wait to let your androgen receptors refresh


thus saying that if i where to hypothetically hop on a cycle of dbol/test say january after being done with pct for 6 weeks would i still make gains?



or would my receptors be clogged- see this doesnt make any sense- the pros NEVER come off but they still make gains


im confused :(
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first post was somewhat serious but I think its pretty pricey to have that done. I'm tryin to find my old post on this subject as it explains it nicely . you def need to wait and let your body balance out again for awhile before starting another cycle.I thinik you'd make good gains but I wouldn't treat my body in such a way usually I would take 2 to 3 months or more after cycles to let everything normalize out.
 
Androgen receptors can be "clogged"... heres how:

Androgen receptors are activated when agonists such as testosterone binds to them or other steroids which mimic testosterone. However, when antagonists binds to the receptor, it prevents the agonist testosterone from binding thus no activation.

A SERM for example (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) will act as an antagonist to estrogen by binding to estrogen receptors in some places in the body such as the chest, but act as the agonist to some places in the body and actually activate the estrogen receptor. They are selective.

So within the body you have agonists and antagonists. Agonists such as testosterone activate androgen receptor ... and antagonists such as anti-androgens bind to the receptor and do nothing but block the real testosterone from binding.

The androgen receptors are found within the cytoplasm of the cell. Think of the cytoplasm as the blood of the cell, it's just the fluid where everything is floating in.

Heres the critical part... androgen receptor quantities within the cell cytoplasm can increase or decrease and the cell can control this.

The cells of the body practice down-regulation where the cell decreases a quantity of a cellular component (such as androgen receptors) or up-regulation where it increases the numbers of a cellular component (such as androgen receptors).

So, not only do agonists and antagonists play a role, the numbers of androgen receptors which goes up and down can also affect gains.

Not enough receptors... no gains... too much receptors... hello gains. (Assuming anti-androgens are in small amounts).

Now what determines the numbers of androgen receptors?

ANDROGENS!!!!

In this study they found that androgens caused down-regulation of androgen receptors in the cells of a rats penis (cell decreasing androgen receptors in response to androgens).

Invalid Link Removed

So we see androgen down-regulation thanks to androgens can be very local and not as systemic. But nonetheless, androgens CAN and DO down-regulate androgen receptors.

My theory

Put in copious amounts of steroids, and the body might catch on, and somehow produce more antagonists such as anti-androgens to block steroids from binding in an attempt to reach homeostasis thus slowing down gains.

Or/And,

Put in copious amounts of steroids, and those same steroids cause down-regulation of androgen receptors (cells in the body decrease number of androgen receptors) thus slowing down gains.

Both situations are very plausible.

What you need to prevent this from happening is something that prevents anti-androgen formation, and something that up-regulates androgen receptors taken together during a cycle... holy sh*t you could gain forever like that (unless the body is smarter than we think which I think it is, and finds another damn way to reach homeostasis).

But go find me anti-androgen inhibitors and androgen receptor up-regulators that can be ingested and you can probably prevent this lol.

So yes, I would take enough time off... how much? Time on + PCT = time off, should be enough. Because you could quite possibly enter your next cycle too early with either too much anti-androgens in your system from previous cycle, or not enough androgen receptors due to down-regulation from previous cycle in which case you get nothing from the new cycle (My answer is based on my theory).
 
^Rat penises aside, i have read that androgens tend to upregulate the androgen receptor. What i've read is consistent with what OnTheRoadTo said.

The bottom line though is that eventually you will get desensitized to the effects of steroids and you'll need to take time off. As long as you take time off, you are good to go, and the steroids will be fully effective the next time.

People here used to say that your receptors got dulled with each use of a steroid because they would gain the most their first cycle and less after that... but that's simply because gains get harder as you grow bigger.
 
UnrealMachine said:
^Rat penises aside, i have read that androgens tend to upregulate the androgen receptor.
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LOL... just an example of how androgens can downregulate the androgen receptors.

I've never read that androgens can upregulate the androgen receptor also. Interesting...

You think that can happen on steroids though since gains stall? Makes more sense they downregulate the receptors...
 
o i am waitin- at least 8 weeks after pct i mean cmon i gotta ive my body a break

cycle plus pct=10 weeks 8 weeks off= 2 weeks short of time on+time off

this is interesting to me i have heard both sides of the story but i have a hard time thinkin schwelly wont gain 15lbs on 40 mg dbol and 500mg test


ahhh well this bulk is oin to be much cleaner and less carbs too
 
whaat about SARMS since they arent actual androgens but can activate the AR could they "theoretically" clog androgen recptors
 
Good discussion, but rather than try and explain the whole thing, here is a quote from Pat Arnold on the subject that sums it up nicely:

"well, androgen receptor downregulation is pretty much discredited.

But receptor concentration is just one of dozens and dozens of ways your body regulates your sensitivity to hormones. After receptor binding a ton of things have to happen before you have successful gene expression, and any of these are targets that your body can use to regulate tissue sensitivity to the hormones."

So really, it's not just about the AR. Focusing on the fact that androgen exposure -> leads to downregulation -> less gains is not seeing the forest for the trees.

OP, to answer the question, yes you would still make gains, but there is a chance the gains would not be as great with more time off. Everyone is different, so there is no way to know for sure, but just understand there is that chance. Although if this is your first pin cycle, test/dbol at decent doses will make you grow, and I don't care how long it's been since the last cycle.

Oh, and chocolatemilk, re: AR upregulators: Go do a little research into l-carnitine. You'll thank me later. :yup:
 
I dont remember where I read it but OnTheRoad seems to have read it as well. At any rate i hardly think it matters, what matters is that gains will eventually stall and then you take time off and then you can cycle again and make gains. The thing I don't like is people having this concept of "virgin" androgen receptors and that somehow their first cycle is more powerful than any other cycle because of them. They seem to think that desensitization to steroids from consecutive cycles is permanent. But this is absolutely wrong in my experience. No matter how many times i run SD for instance, I always blow up 15 pounds and gain 50 pounds on my bench. Every time. I never keep it in the long run, but the short term effects are always the same. Even when people were telling me I had cycled too much too frequently and my receptors were too dulled... Even when i took only 6-10 weeks between cycles a couple times I still saw big gains when i started again.
 
it is my first pin cycle and i have ran 3 oral cycles in the past
 
Dragon13 said:
After receptor binding a ton of things have to happen before you have successful gene expression, and any of these are targets that your body can use to regulate tissue sensitivity to the hormones."
:
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This is true. So you got downregulation, antiandrogens, and everything in between receptor activation to gene expression that the body could use to reach homeostasis. Good point.

I should read up on the process of androgen receptor activation to gene expression. Sounds like a good read.

UnrealMachine said:
I dont remember where I read it but OnTheRoad seems to have read it as well. At any rate i hardly think it matters, what matters is that gains will eventually stall and then you take time off and then you can cycle again and make gains. The thing I don't like is people having this concept of "virgin" androgen receptors and that somehow their first cycle is more powerful than any other cycle because of them. They seem to think that desensitization to steroids from consecutive cycles is permanent. But this is absolutely wrong in my experience. No matter how many times i run SD for instance, I always blow up 15 pounds and gain 50 pounds on my bench. Every time. I never keep it in the long run, but the short term effects are always the same. Even when people were telling me I had cycled too much too frequently and my receptors were too dulled... Even when i took only 6-10 weeks between cycles a couple times I still saw big gains when i started again.
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Yea f*** virgin receptors or "dulled" receptors LMAO. That's the biggest crock pot of sh*t I have ever heard.
 
Schwell just do time off as usual before you cycle and you will make gains just fine, don't worry about ARs.

Pros are not examples for us. They are on constantly but that's a test base and they'll cycle orals and tren on top of that. The base of test (or EQ/Deca/Test however many long esters they want to ****ing shoot) is more to keep gains from tren/orals than anything else I think... more like a blast and cruise but their cruises are full cycle doses and their blasts are several grams a week lol. Anyway pro BBers are not relevant to us.
 
Dear God no i dont want several g's a week


okay i will take the time needed off i got bloods today to see where i stand


and to see if osta is suppressive


soo come january 15 i be rdy to go
 
UnrealMachine said:
I dont remember where I read it but OnTheRoad seems to have read it as well. At any rate i hardly think it matters, what matters is that gains will eventually stall and then you take time off and then you can cycle again and make gains. The thing I don't like is people having this concept of "virgin" androgen receptors and that somehow their first cycle is more powerful than any other cycle because of them. They seem to think that desensitization to steroids from consecutive cycles is permanent. But this is absolutely wrong in my experience.
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Well, I only half agree with you. Virgin androgen receptors - really any AR downregulation theory - is a crock of ****. But the old "first cycle = best cycle" is generally accepted as true for a reason. It has nothing to do with the AR, however; like PA said in the quote in my post above, there are many, many ways the body can "slow" gains when exposed to elevated androgen levels, and I do think there is (how can I put this) carryover.

Think of it this way: if Newb User blows up 25 lbs on a first cycle of a moderate dose of test only for 12 weeks, will his next cycle yield similar, or better gains? We all know it's very unlikely, but not due to anything AR related. There are other mechanisms at play here, and the body will self-limit itself, even in the presence of more and more androgens. It this weren't true, the pros would all be 500 lbs on stage.

No matter how many times i run SD for instance, I always blow up 15 pounds and gain 50 pounds on my bench. Every time. I never keep it in the long run, but the short term effects are always the same. Even when people were telling me I had cycled too much too frequently and my receptors were too dulled... Even when i took only 6-10 weeks between cycles a couple times I still saw big gains when i started again.
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^^^^ That's the key. I agree, nothing to do with ARs, but you were admittedly walking down a path you'd already trod.
 
chocolatemilk said:
This is true. So you got downregulation, antiandrogens, and everything in...
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No. AR downregulation is a myth. My point was that gains slowing and eventually stopping on-cycle have to do with other mechanisms in the body.


Yea f*** virgin receptors or "dulled" receptors LMAO. That's the biggest crock pot of sh*t I have ever heard.
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Agree.
 
Dragon13 said:
No. AR downregulation is a myth.
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?????

What do you mean here^^

If downregulation is a myth, and upregulation is true, that means your androgen receptors can only rise and never come back down lol.

AR downregulation happens. That's a fact.

That rat experienced AR downregulation, prostate cancer patients experience AR downregulation, 3,3′-Diindolylmethane causes AR downregulation... list goes on.

A cell practices both upregulation and downregulation. To rise AR levels, and decline AR levels. How is this a myth Dragon?
 
chocolatemilk said:
?????

What do you mean here^^

If downregulation is a myth, and upregulation is true, that means your androgen receptors can only rise and never come back down lol.

AR downregulation happens. That's a fact.

That rat experienced AR downregulation, prostate cancer patients experience AR downregulation, 3,3′-Diindolylmethane causes AR downregulation... list goes on.

A cell practices both upregulation and downregulation. To rise AR levels, and decline AR levels. How is this a myth Dragon?
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Sorry, I should have been more specific and said "AR downregulation due to AAS use" is a myth. I was speaking strictly in terms of on-cycle androgen levels. Also, I didn't say anything about upregulation. I don't know if that is true or not, TBH.

Anywya, have a read: Invalid Link Removed

That's an oldy but still a goody. And looky, he even cites your rat **** study. :wink1:
 
Dragon13 said:
Well, I only half agree with you. Virgin androgen receptors - really any AR downregulation theory - is a crock of ****. But the old "first cycle = best cycle" is generally accepted as true for a reason. It has nothing to do with the AR, however; like PA said in the quote in my post above, there are many, many ways the body can "slow" gains when exposed to elevated androgen levels, and I do think there is (how can I put this) carryover.

Think of it this way: if Newb User blows up 25 lbs on a first cycle of a moderate dose of test only for 12 weeks, will his next cycle yield similar, or better gains? We all know it's very unlikely, but not due to anything AR related. There are other mechanisms at play here, and the body will self-limit itself, even in the presence of more and more androgens. It this weren't true, the pros would all be 500 lbs on stage.



^^^^ That's the key. I agree, nothing to do with ARs, but you were admittedly walking down a path you'd already trod.
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Nah man I totally agree with that. That's the reason why people gain the most on their first cycle, not because of "virgin receptors" lol but you'd be surprised how many times I read about it on the boards.
 
Dragon13 said:
Sorry, I should have been more specific and said "AR downregulation due to AAS use" is a myth. I was speaking strictly in terms of on-cycle androgen levels. Also, I didn't say anything about upregulation. I don't know if that is true or not, TBH.

Anywya, have a read: Invalid Link Removed

That's an oldy but still a goody. And looky, he even cites your rat **** study. :wink1:
Click to expand...

Oh ok that makes more sense. LOL he does.

To the bold^^

"AR upregulation in response to supraphysiological levels of androgen in cell culture has repeatedly been observed in experiments using accurate assay methods and devoid of the above problems."

From that source.

The rat penis study showed androgens responsible for downregulation and apparently androgens can be responsible for upregulation. I believe andorgens can cause upregulation AND downregulation.

But with the case of AAS and having super physiological levels not causing downregulation, the writeup you gave me comes from a PhD holder so I must say it is credible.

Good read.
 
Huh never seen this thread.
 
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