BROCKTOBERFEST/HOW DOES CAIN BEAT LESNAR??
- Thread starter luclyluciano
- Start date
BabyHulk
Active member
As long as Lesnar keeps growing as a fighter, he will be back. I hope he is anyway. I still have the upmost respect for him. Cain has my respect too, but I don't see him staying on top long, especially with Brock, Carwin, etc. all gunning for the belt.
And no, I didn't expect what happened last night at all. Not even close to what I had in mind.
And no, I didn't expect what happened last night at all. Not even close to what I had in mind.
raulob72
Well-known member
Well bro ,Lesnar can not even raise his hands to drink a corona!!bwahahahahaha:saroll:
luclyluciano
Well-known member
Lesnar needs to get to a professional outside camp and abolish his YES men camp.
He needs to immerse himself in kickboxing and striking and needs to learn defense and how to react once hit. Otherwise, he is finished as he has been exposed.
He needs to immerse himself in kickboxing and striking and needs to learn defense and how to react once hit. Otherwise, he is finished as he has been exposed.
mich29
Board Sponsor
very true statement here
bigwhiteguy29
Well-known member
I told you guys cain would win. How bout them pillow punches? Oh waitttttt
Rodja
Board Sponsor
It's not that simple.
n87
Member
lol...X2. He could not even get up and just rolled...
That'll teach Lesnar to watch his mouth
Young Gotti
Well-known member
So happy lesnar lost in the fashion he did....so far his UFC career has been far from spectacular....even as a champion lesnar is very limited on what he can do
luclyluciano
Well-known member
Care to elaborate?
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
I was not impressed with the Lesnar fight. Cain is not that good. Lesnar did not fight. I think everyone that Lesnar has beat can take Cain...including Couture. Guess we'll see if they line Cain up for a win or if he loses his next fight against a tough heavyweight.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Some people just don't react well to getting hit in the face. Hell, there are some elite K-1 fighters that don't react well (CC, Overeem). If you expect his striking to really improve to anywhere beyond a competent level, then you're fooling yourself. It's not that he lacks the talent or athleticism, but he's way too old to get to a great level. His illness really set back his development to an incalculable degree.
He did bring in Pat Barry into his camp and has a world-class BJJ BB in his camp as well. Granted, the bulk of it is wrestlers, but that could be said for a lot of the big camps as well (e.g. AKA, Jackson's).
VolcomX311
Legend
Agreed. Kampmen is no slouch, but if the Kampmen was Shield's measure as to how he would rate with GSP, there's just no comparison. GSP by light years, yet again.
I certainly respect Shield's wrestling/grappling abilities and am very aware of his Abu Dhabi submissions over a host of great guys, Leos Santos being one of the more impressive, but if the same Shied's who showed up for Kampmen shows up for GSP.... no bueno.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
The most comical part about Brock's loss is how ridiculous the cries of, "WE NEED A NEW WEIGHT CATEGORY SET AT 225! NOT FAIR WITH BROCK LESNAR!" seem. Very odd how bound up in the present people become, a habit which is only exaggerated by the juvenescence of MMA. Emerging and passing trends seem more like the institution of new regimes - "Machida Era" bringing elusiveness to the fore, the "Brock Era" being the age of mammoth heavyweights, etc.
VolcomX311
Legend
We don't speak Canadian... j.k.
Who do you think holds the greater threat to Cain? JDS or a hypothetically new & improved, energy conserving/maximizing, Octagon Green Movement version of Carwin 2.0?
Rodja
Board Sponsor
At the tail end of the broadcast, Rogan said, "Welcome to the Cain era..." even though he has yet to defend it and, I really hate to say this, but the HW division is still really, really thin. The fighters that were at the top just 2 years ago are either irrelevant or no longer contenders. Add in the split in talent between UFC and SF and the competition becomes even thinner.
VolcomX311
Legend
It time for Allister to come over for the fak of it and Fedor's career will ultimatley end with hypoethetical victories and highlights over UFC HW's.
Short of JDS and Carwin, who else would even challenge Cain? Considering Brock may never "learn to take a hit," I'm skeptical about my previous perception of his poetential peak form.
Short of JDS and Carwin, who else would even challenge Cain? Considering Brock may never "learn to take a hit," I'm skeptical about my previous perception of his poetential peak form.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Are you buying the Overeem hype because I'm not (see vs Shogun, Rog Nog, Arona, Kharitinov II for evidence). He's great in K-1 with a different set of rules and gloves, but he has yet to face a real challenger since bulking up. Hell, his cardio was awful at 205; how the hell will it get better with 45-50 lbs of extra LBM?
luclyluciano
Well-known member
Sure, he's up there in age but Cain hasn't been striking that long either and he went from Wrestler to Pillow hands to now apparently being heavy handed. Perhaps he doesn't have the time anymore or maybe even the physique but training with a bunch of guys that are afraid to hurt you or punch your lights out because they are in YOUR gym and you are a control freak in not a good way to learn defense and what it's like to get hit. His reactions in the cage clearly show this. He should try getting into the cage with the likes of KONGO an RAMPAGE etc for getting hit and learning how to strike for example or something better. In his last 2 fights he looks like he'd NEVER been punched in the face/head.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Carwin's footwork is rudimentary at best, so I think Cain's movement and precision become the deciding factors in that potential bout. As for JDS, for all his hype, his takedown defense is as of yet unknown, which makes any potential pugilistic prognostications patently probabilistic in that regard.
))
VolcomX311
Legend
I don't think Overeem would come over to handle the division or anything, but just someone to make for more interesting fights. A top 5 fighter in the HW division, is where I'd expect him to fall.
Ultimately, I just don't want the HW division to become uninteresting again.
bezoe
Well-known member
I hope the bribe money was worth that 4 inch gash..
No really, Im a big brock fan. Just cant accept the fact he wasnt prepared and got dominated so easily. I agree that he should focus on striking/stand up while he has a few years left of his career. I'd like to see him reclaim the title from this guy before he hangs it up..
And shave that f*cking beard lol
No really, Im a big brock fan. Just cant accept the fact he wasnt prepared and got dominated so easily. I agree that he should focus on striking/stand up while he has a few years left of his career. I'd like to see him reclaim the title from this guy before he hangs it up..
And shave that f*cking beard lol
iron fists
New member
well first of all brock doesnt handle getting hit in the face which is very true...but lets not overlook the fact that it was a right handed haymaker to the back of brocks head that dropped him face first into the canvas..not making any excuses for brock..but that is why he was dazed..not the barrage of missed strikes and peppering hammerfists from cain..imo..they could have let it go another 30 seconds so we could get a 2nd round out of it....on a lighter note...the hw belt will be passed around quite frequently now as there is no true dominant hw in the ufc, and the style matchups will the determine the champ as it will be on many fighters shelfs this next year...jds will out box cain completely but i feel we will see the lay a pray cain return for that fight almost in a rashaad evans tribute fashon.lol.. and kampan really messed up bad in his gameplan..but sheilds is not a top 3 fighter in either ww or mw in the ufc...i dnt think he could beat condit, penn, hughes, or even his counterpart jon fitch ( who is right now arguing that there is still no way another fighter could be more boring and lackluster than he).. and at mw shields would get tooled by maia, marquart, maybe even okami......but than will never stop the rogan cox suxin express of jake shields.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
That wasn't in the UFC, so it doesn't count...
bigwhiteguy29
Well-known member
exactly.
I think Cain is really good and I said it before he was going to beat Lesner. I feel like JDS and Carwin would be close fights with him and Cain. Those + brock are the future.
Just like Rodja said HW division has been changing rapidly. Also Stikre FOrces HW division isnt looking bad at all.
I would like to see Carwin fix his game but I like Cain better because I am from Nor Cal and followed him close since his first UFC fight.
iron fists
New member
I know sheilds has beaten them both..but had already peaked at his fight game when he did so...whereas condit and okami have both evloved into better fighters now...and as far as people going nuts for condit...his win over hardy was not that significant to me....hardy was an over hyped title contender who has no wrestling or ground game and a boxing style that is wide open to picked apart... my arguement for condit beating shields is merely an example of fighters who are not even in the league of gsp or kos that would beat sheilds plain and simple....and like i said , sheilds is the same fighter he has always been and would probably get beat in rematches against guys he has beatne before...especially mayhem miller.
n87
Member
That's a real tongue twister, can you just type "5p" instead next time... potential pugilistic prognostications patently probabilistic...
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
First, a bit of an aside: I am confused as to how Josh Koscheck has been transformed into this viable and dangerous contender, seemingly overnight.
This is precisely the same fighter who is 6-2 since losing to GSP, who possesses only a single win over (arguably) top ten competition during that period, and who failed to once take down an opponent who GSP brutalized (Alves) both on the feet and on the ground. And we are to believe that Kos' wrestling is going to be the decisive factor, here?
Not meaning to single you out, but the MMA community now refers to the top of the division as "GSP and Kos," while Fitch and an in-shape Alves would destroy Kos, and I believe Kampmann and Condit could pose issues to him as well.
At any rate, I disagree with your assessment of Shields. While he has not developed into a GSP-esque "jack of all trades," he has certainly improved upon his ground game - most notably his transitions and positional dominance. To say that he was at his "peak" when he beat Condit and Okami largely ignores the fact his current stage is traditionally considered the "peak" of an athlete's career.
While GSP will destroy him, should he beat Kos, I think Shields is not an easy win for anybody - either at MW, or WW.
AE14
Board Sponsor
couldnt agree more. I see more of a threat at 185 than 170, unless he improves his conditioning.
For it to be said that Shields peaked already exemplifies a personal knowledge of Shields that no one here has, and therefore negates that point entirely imo
iron fists
New member
when I refer to him his peak i am not talking about his physical ability limit..i am talking about his fight game.....does sheilds fight any differently now than he did before?? to me he looks the same, moves the same, has the same skill set, and fights the same each time with the exception of an early submission like on lawler..( but really not a significant win).sheilds ground has improved but he held on for life to beat miller, coudlnt finish an injured hendo from mount with 20 minutes to do so, and merely just keep a step ahead of kampman on the ground when martin was getting back up. and kos is referred to at the top because he is...he has lost fights but...he got caught by thiago and really cant really criticize him for that cuz he is not a slouch and...people do get caught. as far alves goes, kos took that fight on a two week notice so im not going to argue his performance there becuase the fact that he took the fight on such a short notice against alves at that point in his career says enough itself. kos will lose to gsp...but he wont get dominated the way gsp did to fitch. i do think condit would be tough for kos. but shelds has a better chance a ww than he does mw .
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
With all due respect, this is simply inaccurate. Prior to the Miller fight, Jake Shields had eight consecutive finishes, two of which via strikes. Like any fighter, Shields has evolved his game, though his happens to be within a narrow skill-set. No fighter drastically transcends "the way they fought before," and nor should they in the case of wildly successful ones.
In three years, a period in which he has three losses, Josh Koscheck's most significant win is Paul Daley. That is my counterpoint, and a damn good one.
iron fists
New member
yeah but if daley won..then what would have made the case to give him the title shot?? and who has fitch beat that is top ten??? and his last thiago alves win is irrelevant as thiago was beat before he walked into the cage and fitch still couldnt finish him. other than that and his first win oveer thiago fitch had only beat diego when diego was still goin hard, and then it was a split decision.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
The UFC awards title shots as often for convenience and revenue as it does deservedness, so assessing a fighter's merits by that rubric just begs the question all over again.
At any rate, Fitch had won sixteen consecutive bouts prior to the GSP loss - or in other words, more victories than Koscheck has total - and has won five since it. Ironically enough, he beat the very people that Koscheck lost to during that same period, in Alves and Paulo Thiago.
The reality is that Koscheck is receiving a very large promotional push, and this has vastly inflated public perception of his fighting ability. I think Kos is an explosive athlete, has a very effective double leg, and has become increasingly effective on the feet. That being said, he is currently being overrated and your statements are part of that.
iron fists
New member
I dont think im over rating him..but he is being promoted like a ww tito like bad boy, but i also think too that the way he fights vs the way fitch does is a drastically different fan base draw and more often than not..more people would rather see fitch on the undercard than pay to have him take up 15 mins of ppv whereas kos will put on a show a create the draw. and fitches performance aginst ben sauders did not show anything worthy of title shot especially when saunders is not even a top 15 ww. i will give you the paulo win but mike peirce and gona are not top 15 either...and kos would have beat the thiago alves fitch just fought, hell hughes would have beaten that alves too.
bigwhiteguy29
Well-known member
Jon Fitch.....Dana hates him. I forget they had some sort of dispute with a couple AKA guys. I think Swick and maybe Fitch? I cant remember also Dana says hes very boring and throws him easy fights. I remember he was in the prelims a few fights ago, I was like WTF? Then I think they bumped him last min.
GSP would kill Jake Shields
I think Kos is not that bad of a fight for GSP. I think he will bang and wrestle. Its gonig to be a better fight than thiago Alves and GSP.
GSP would kill Jake Shields
I think Kos is not that bad of a fight for GSP. I think he will bang and wrestle. Its gonig to be a better fight than thiago Alves and GSP.
iron fists
New member
yeah fitch has been thrown some easier fights than kos and still couldnt finfish them..bu the dispute between fitch and dana was when ea sports came out with there mma game and fitch was still gona be on it despite the ufc telling them no, and when fitch still did it, the ufc was gona end his contract and cut him....which sounds like it would have been a good move.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Not quite. The UFC wanted Fitch to sign over his likeness and name over in a lifetime contract for their game. Originally, he refused and the UFC released him, but it was only for about 24 hours.
SamuraiSid
Member
Its my understanding that the UFC is now making all there new contracts with the "likeness" stipulation. I understand why the UFC is doing this, but still dont agree. If your going to throw your fighter into a video game, you should also maybe throw them a little extra cash.
Whatever, Dana is a douche!
Rodja
Board Sponsor
I wouldn't doubt that at all.
iron fists
New member
well i knew it had something to do with a video game.
bigwhiteguy29
Well-known member
I dont understand what it means? Your rights in a game? Like how Barry Bonds isnt in any Baseball gmaes, hes just a black left fielder lol
ChrisSurf
Member
Dana is a douche but he's also a marketing genius and knows what he's doing... it's like you like and hate him at the same time lol. I agree on the video game thing, plus they could offer the fighters more period.. their pay days are a tiny fraction of what the zuffas bring in.
Personally I don't mind the events every month vs the ol days of some free ones and then main events like every couple of months if that... sucked waiting so long for events that would end up sucking. At least with every month it's a numbers game be some sucky ones and rest are generally good overall.