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Novedex XT and TCF-1

mav6

mav6

New member
I read a study where they administered Nolvadex (tamoxifen) to elite rowers who had lowered T levels due to overtraining.

So, I thought I might run a bottle of Novedex XT and see if I got similar results. Then, I wondered, would it be worth running some TCF-1 with it? I figure if TCF-1 ups T production, and Novedex prevents it from aromatizing, you could end up with some pretty nice results running both together.

Has anyone ever tried this? Does this sound like it would work well? Or do you think running TCF with Novedex would be a waste and useless?
 
Yes they are. But Nolvadex (tamoxifen) is illegal, and Novedex is OTC. Nolvadex is an estrogen blocker, Novedex is an aromatase inhibitor. My hope is that by reducing estrogen by either mechanism, one could recover more quickly from overtraining. That's why I'm hoping for similar results. If I was taking Nolvadex, I would expect the exact same results.
 
mav6 said:
I read a study where they administered Nolvadex (tamoxifen) to elite rowers who had lowered T levels due to overtraining.

So, I thought I might run a bottle of Novedex XT and see if I got similar results. Then, I wondered, would it be worth running some TCF-1 with it? I figure if TCF-1 ups T production, and Novedex prevents it from aromatizing, you could end up with some pretty nice results running both together.

Has anyone ever tried this? Does this sound like it would work well? Or do you think running TCF with Novedex would be a waste and useless?
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can't recall anyone trying this.I know nov xt would help boost your t levels for awhile and seems tcf1 would do the same as well.however i would try each alone first before stacking them together so you have a rough idea of how you would react to each.do you know for sure you have lowered t?
also are you overtrainning? and if so why?
 
I have seen a lot of people taking tcf 1 and sustain alpha and tcf 1 with erase, both groups loved the results, great synergy with daa and an anti e
 
IMO atd is strait garbage. Id go with TCF-1/ Sustain Alpha or TCF-1/Erase.. Both solid stacks that will yield exactly what you are looking for.
 
Thanks for the help guys.

mich29 said:
can't recall anyone trying this.I know nov xt would help boost your t levels for awhile and seems tcf1 would do the same as well.however i would try each alone first before stacking them together so you have a rough idea of how you would react to each.do you know for sure you have lowered t?
also are you overtrainning? and if so why?
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I'm trying to recover from overtraining. I've already scaled back to just following Wendler 531 to maintain strength during this time, but I was previously in a pre-spec ops program that basically just wore me down with all the long runs, swims, and ruck marches. PT wasn't a big deal, but the long runs and ruck marches really took a toll on me.

I've run TCF-1 solo, and I've run TCF-1 with Sustain Alpha, and I liked it, I just thought maybe I'd get even more kick if I stacked it with an AI.

3clipseGT said:
IMO atd is strait garbage. Id go with TCF-1/ Sustain Alpha or TCF-1/Erase.. Both solid stacks that will yield exactly what you are looking for.
Click to expand...

Isn't Erase just another AI? The active ingredient sounds like a PH though. I was impressed by the Baylor University study on Novedex, and I figured it would be an effective AI, but the more I read, there are alot of guys who hate Novedex. Is it ineffective?
 
mav6 said:
Thanks for the help guys.



I'm trying to recover from overtraining. I've already scaled back to just following Wendler 531 to maintain strength during this time, but I was previously in a pre-spec ops program that basically just wore me down with all the long runs, swims, and ruck marches. PT wasn't a big deal, but the long runs and ruck marches really took a toll on me.

I've run TCF-1 solo, and I've run TCF-1 with Sustain Alpha, and I liked it, I just thought maybe I'd get even more kick if I stacked it with an AI.



Isn't Erase just another AI? The active ingredient sounds like a PH though. I was impressed by the Baylor University study on Novedex, and I figured it would be an effective AI, but the more I read, there are alot of guys who hate Novedex. Is it ineffective?
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Its not ineffective but it acts as an anti-androgen if im not mistaken. Also it just crushes estro way to much. Erase not only control estro but also cortisol, double whammy of goodness if you ask me.
 
mav6 said:
Thanks for the help guys.



I'm trying to recover from overtraining. I've already scaled back to just following Wendler 531 to maintain strength during this time, but I was previously in a pre-spec ops program that basically just wore me down with all the long runs, swims, and ruck marches. PT wasn't a big deal, but the long runs and ruck marches really took a toll on me.

I've run TCF-1 solo, and I've run TCF-1 with Sustain Alpha, and I liked it, I just thought maybe I'd get even more kick if I stacked it with an AI.



Isn't Erase just another AI? The active ingredient sounds like a PH though. I was impressed by the Baylor University study on Novedex, and I figured it would be an effective AI, but the more I read, there are alot of guys who hate Novedex. Is it ineffective?
Click to expand...

Novadex - bad libido and acts and an anti androgen..
You would like erase or forma-stanzol..
 
3clipseGT said:
Its not ineffective but it acts as an anti-androgen if im not mistaken. Also it just crushes estro way to much. Erase not only control estro but also cortisol, double whammy of goodness if you ask me.
Click to expand...

gamer2be08 said:
Novadex - bad libido and acts and an anti androgen..
You would like erase or forma-stanzol..
Click to expand...

Thanks, I really appreciate the recommendation and advice.

I still can't get past Erase's active ingredient though. Is that a PH? Does it require a PCT after using it?

I could really use some more cortisol control since that's also out of whack from the overtraining, Erase sounds like a great choice.
 
mav6 said:
Thanks, I really appreciate the recommendation and advice.

I still can't get past Erase's active ingredient though. Is that a PH? Does it require a PCT after using it?

I could really use some more cortisol control since that's also out of whack from the overtraining, Erase sounds like a great choice.
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erase is not a steroid lol.
No PCT required.

No rebound either.
It is a natural 7-keto DHEA metabolite..
 
gamer2be08 said:
erase is not a steroid lol.
No PCT required.

No rebound either.
It is a natural 7-keto DHEA metabolite..
Click to expand...

Ok, cool, thanks for the clarification. All these "andro" names or scientific sounding chemical names always sound like PHs to me. I know PHs are legal and all, but I just don't want to take anything that requires a PCT until I'm more knowledgeable about those kinds of methods.
 
mav6 said:
Ok, cool, thanks for the clarification. All these "andro" names or scientific sounding chemical names always sound like PHs to me. I know PHs are legal and all, but I just don't want to take anything that requires a PCT until I'm more knowledgeable about those kinds of methods.
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Smart man :)
 
Erase does not require pct as stated above, people used novedex xt a lot during pct because it sounds like nolvadex, even some people got it confused completely. I'd stick with either erase or sustain alpha and tcf 1, proven products from solid companies.
 
I'll stand by TCF-1 and an AI...I'm running it with 6-oxo and I'm really liking it...gf is worn out though ;)
 
gamer2be08 said:
Novadex - bad libido and acts and an anti androgen..
You would like erase or forma-stanzol..
Click to expand...

I've read that ATD is selective when it comes to its anti-androgen effects. It doesn't effect androgen receptors on muscle cells but rather the androgen receptors in the brain, the hypothalamus I think. So the brain detects low levels of androgen and therefore signals and for increase in androgen production. I've read many reports of users recovering better on ATD from a prohormone cycle than nolva. Regardless of whether this is true, ATD is solid PCT for many milder prohormones. Just don't take too much of it.
 
Thank you for all the feedback. It sounds like Erase is very well liked. I'm set on TCF over the Sustain Alpha just because of previous bloodwork, but I think I'll choose Erase over Novedex.

PP is discontinuing its Formestane. That's supposedly the strongest AI. Is that worth taking or does it just drop estrogen levels too low?
 
mav6 said:
Thank you for all the feedback. It sounds like Erase is very well liked. I'm set on TCF over the Sustain Alpha just because of previous bloodwork, but I think I'll choose Erase over Novedex.

PP is discontinuing its Formestane. That's supposedly the strongest AI. Is that worth taking or does it just drop estrogen levels too low?
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Oral formestane doesnt work...
Wont reduce estro too much.
And formestane has so many benefits other than just being an anti-e:


Invalid Link Removed

Best formestane product ever^^
Like sustain and formestane combined!
 
mav6 said:
Thank you for all the feedback. It sounds like Erase is very well liked. I'm set on TCF over the Sustain Alpha just because of previous bloodwork, but I think I'll choose Erase over Novedex.

PP is discontinuing its Formestane. That's supposedly the strongest AI. Is that worth taking or does it just drop estrogen levels too low?
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I believe the continuous lowering of Estrogen levels is entirely dose dependent. Theoretically, if you dose according to the bottle's directions, you should not have any Estrogen related issues.

However, for more information regarding the efficacy of Formestane, I'd recommend checking out this consolidated thread: Invalid Link Removed
 
hoopem6 said:
I believe the continuous lowering of Estrogen levels is entirely dose dependent. Theoretically, if you dose according to the bottle's directions, you should not have any Estrogen related issues.

However, for more information regarding the efficacy of Formestane, I'd recommend checking out this consolidated thread: Invalid Link Removed
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And if you knew about form, you would know that oral delivery, even with LV, is not that effective..

CEL and NTBM make the two forms that work.
 
Resolve said:
I'd be cautious in making that claim. Liquivade and similar micelle nano-carriers can and do have large impact on oral bioavailability.
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How does this stop it from getting destroyed by stomach or liver?
You know im not bashing PP, but you must understand where I come from.
 
gamer2be08 said:
How does this stop it from getting destroyed by stomach or liver?
You know im not bashing PP, but you must understand where I come from.
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You're repping your company's product - I understand. But to do so at the expense of another product is a bit unprofessional.

The stomach won't degrade most drug-like substances in any appreciable amount. The liver will metabolize formestane, but not all of it on the first pass - you will retain an active dose, which elicits formestane's known effects.

Let's also not forget that only ~50%, at best, of a topical application, can have hope to reach the bloodstream.

It's a trade-off.
 
gamer2be08 said:
And if you knew about form, you would know that oral delivery, even with LV, is not that effective..

CEL and NTBM make the two forms that work.
Click to expand...

Albeit higher, oral Formestane can be just as effective as topical Formestane given the dosage. Plus, I wouldn't immediately dismiss PP's LV delivery system either. There are plenty of user reviews that support Formestane LV's overall effectiveness.

Ultimately, as Resolve previously stated, it's a trade-off.
 
Damn, information overload. Even PP makes transdermals as well as LVs, I never know which one to pick, but it would make sense that transdermals won't affect your liver like anything oral would, but is formestane really that hepatoxic anyways? I thought guys used it when they were on cycle to prevent aromatization.

In any case, I just need a temporary fix to try to get my body back to neutral. I think the overtraining really screwed me up. No matter how much I sleep, 10-12 hours straight, I'm just getting out of bed because I need to. I could easily sleep all day and still be tired. I'm just drained.
 
I just ran novedex xt not too long ago. It wasnt bad, i lost some fat. I ran it as directed nxt time i would defiantly run 3caps a day or even 4 as i noticed its not that potent. My strength really didnt go up. GL
 
I have an interesting report on this topic. I am currently running NP bulk DAA. Day 13 and I have noticed strength increase but also feel incredibly tired and foggy since I started using it. Also an intermittent itchy lower back (who knows if related and what this means).

After reading this thread I remembered I have an old bottle of Novedex XT sitting in my cupboard. I never finished it as it also made me tired, irritable and noticed nothing good from it. Anyway, I took a pill last night before bed to see if the two work together better than one or the other.

I woke up the most refreshed I have felt since starting DAA. I feel full of energy and clear headed. Will see how I go in the gym tonight. Make of this what you will but I am liking it. Must be something to do with estrogen balance.

Will run DAA for 30 days at 3g a day and take one Novedex XT pill a night until they are gone (have about 10 left).
 
mav6 said:
Damn, information overload. Even PP makes transdermals as well as LVs, I never know which one to pick, but it would make sense that transdermals won't affect your liver like anything oral would, but is formestane really that hepatoxic anyways? I thought guys used it when they were on cycle to prevent aromatization.

In any case, I just need a temporary fix to try to get my body back to neutral. I think the overtraining really screwed me up. No matter how much I sleep, 10-12 hours straight, I'm just getting out of bed because I need to. I could easily sleep all day and still be tired. I'm just drained.
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form is not liver toxic bro..
 
Resolve said:
You would have to ask NattyDisaster about Erase, as I know the NCAA bans some "anti-estrogens" but I am uncertain about Erase.

I don't believe DAA (TCF-1) is banned.
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I dont believe it can be banned because it is naturally occuring in your body. And is a new product, NCAA wouldnt of gotten a hold of it yet.
 
gamer2be08 said:
I dont believe it can be banned because it is naturally occuring in your body. And is a new product, NCAA wouldnt of gotten a hold of it yet.
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That's a bad argument (I can see where you are coming from, but I don't that is a sound argument in certain committee's eyes)
Eg: it's illegal to take your own naturally occurring blood, store it for 1-2 weeks, then put that very same unmodified blood back into your body.
Then there's testosterone, insulin, growth hormone and even certain amino acids that all naturally occur in our bodies too...
 
Sunder said:
That's a bad argument (I can see where you are coming from, but I don't that is a sound argument in certain committee's eyes)
Eg: it's illegal to take your own naturally occurring blood, store it for 1-2 weeks, then put that very same unmodified blood back into your body.
Then there's testosterone, insulin, growth hormone and even certain amino acids that all naturally occur in our bodies too...
Click to expand...

Depending on the half life of erase, they may never catch it..
And how would they tell if you put your own blood back in you..

I see where you are coming from.
 
gamer2be08 said:
Depending on the half life of erase, they may never catch it..
And how would they tell if you put your own blood back in you..

I see where you are coming from.
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They check for increased RBC or HCT. You usually have to give them a reason to test you for it though. Getting caught with syringes, IVs, or something of that nature. Otherwise, they usually just do the standard urine testing. Which is apparently pretty inaccurate anyways because I know more than half of the athletes I coached were taking various test boosters, prohormones, all kinds of stuff banned from the NCAA list, and none of them ever tested positive for anything.

Some of the banned substances are downright stupid though. I had one athlete get in trouble because they found a can of Animal pak in his bag. It has a small amount of smilax in it which is on the banned list. But yet, guys who empty a bottle of multi vitamins and fill it with anavar tabs get away with no questions asked....
 
gamer2be08 said:
Depending on the half life of erase, they may never catch it..
And how would they tell if you put your own blood back in you..

I see where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
The Olympics and other events tell by comparing your heamocrite level over the past 6 months. I imagine that only works when you're previously tested. Then again, a high white blood cell count may raise suspicion and accusation.

But regardless of the testing method or probability of getting caught, I was referring to the legality of it - not the risk of getting caught. Lots of Olympic athletes use steroids, which are illegal, but they don't get caught.

Don't get me wrong - I like TCP-1. I'm just saying you can't make the argument that it has to be legal in all orgs because it's naturally occurring in our bodies.
 
I would run TCF-1 with sustain AlphaLV for some pretty nice results running both together.
I love thats its mild and healthy.
I also rec 4 weeks on 2 on with tcf-1 but just me.
I guess you could use the nolvadexXT with thoses but i havent used it so i cant honistly comment.
 
American_Giant said:
would a tcf-1/erase stak be ncaa legal?
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I played college football, took all kinds of stuff including real gear and prohormones, superdrol, methyl tst, dermacrine, etc. Also used sustain alpha and torem for pct, took a test every year and never got popped, I also used test p though and was smart about my cycle timing. If you are around long enough you know when they will test and when they won't.
 
HATEFULone said:
Damn, gotta stock up before its too late, its not too late yet is it, gotta get me some dermacrine and androhard.
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Get on it bud. We have less than 50% stock remaining. Don't miss out. ;)

Cheers!:cheers:

-Sean-

Primordial Performance
 
Hey guys, just thought I'd chime in regarding whether or not Erase and Novedex are considered "natural".

Resolve said:
You would have to ask NattyDisaster about Erase, as I know the NCAA bans some "anti-estrogens" but I am uncertain about Erase.

DAA (TCF-1) is not specifically banned, but I would be cautious before using it. The NCAA is very picky about Test Boosters, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

I know everyone has their own definition of what's natural or not, but one such standard can be what's in the WADA Prohibited List. (I'm not familiar with the NCAA rules, so I can't comment there, but these lists often overlap to a large degree.)

In this case, the ATD in Novedex makes it prohibited under the AI category.


gamer2be08 said:
erase is not a steroid lol.
No PCT required.

No rebound either.
It is a natural 7-keto DHEA metabolite..
Click to expand...

Currently, the androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione in Erase is not on the WADA list (as far as I can tell). I guess it's just too new. However, DHEA and most of its metabolites are prohibited, so I'd be surprised if it doesn't appear on the updated 2011 list next year. Same for the 3,7-Keto DHEA in Free Test. So... you could say these guys are on the border-line of what one might call natural. You could play it safe and avoid them, have a field day until they're prohibited, or just enjoy and give WADA the bird (this option works best if you're not a drug-tested athlete!). Still not sure where I've decided to do, to be honest. :-)

That said, I think combining an AI with DAA is a killer idea!

Regardless if you consider ATD natural or not, or care if it's banned or not by WADA or some other organization, it's probably not the best way to go. As others have already pointed out, it has a tendency in many people to lower estrogen too much, even with low doses. The very low estrogen levels in turn can lead to reduced libido and joint discomfort or pain ("dry joints").

But you've got options even if you want to stick to the strict WADA rules. I'm giving Reversitol v2 a try right now (although I unfortunately just ran out of DAA... doh!) but it's too early to say if it's working well for me.

I've also got a bottle of Triazole on the way and am excited to give that a try, hopefully together with some DAA (maybe TCF-1).

Good luck whichever route you choose.

Cheers!
 
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but in talking about the Novedex, ATD was mentioned several times. I was looking at the label today, and I don't seen anything that would be abbreviated as ATD. Do I have a different formula? The ingredients are:

6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol
3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene
3', 5, 7-trihydroxy-4'-methoxyflavone
 
mav6 said:
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but in talking about the Novedex, ATD was mentioned several times. I was looking at the label today, and I don't seen anything that would be abbreviated as ATD. Do I have a different formula? The ingredients are:

6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol
3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene
3', 5, 7-trihydroxy-4'-methoxyflavone
Click to expand...

no you have the correct formula its just easier to say ATD then saying the formula nomenclature over and over again.
 
mav6 said:
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but in talking about the Novedex, ATD was mentioned several times. I was looking at the label today, and I don't seen anything that would be abbreviated as ATD. Do I have a different formula? The ingredients are:

6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol
3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene
3', 5, 7-trihydroxy-4'-methoxyflavone
Click to expand...

mich29 said:
no you have the correct formula its just easier to say ATD then saying the formula nomenclature over and over again.
Click to expand...

At first I didn't realize it had ATD either, since they use an alternative name for the compound. The 3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene is also known as 1,4,6-androstatrien-3,17-dione (abbreviated ATD). (Check out the Wikipedia article for ATD, which unfortunately I can't link to yet.). The ATD is the main ingredient in Novedex.

As far as other three compounds, biochemistry is not my strong suit (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but the 6,17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol (THP) appears to be a metabolite of 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione (aka 4-AT or OXO-6: see also the Wikipedia article). The third ingredient, I've got no clue. Some Googling tells me it could be either Kaempferide or Diosmin or Hesperetin or...?

Cheers.
 
Ah gotcha, thanks. I didn't know that they had used an alternate name for the same compound. Tricky bastards, almost seems like they were trying to avoid making that obvious.
 
mav6 said:
Ah gotcha, thanks. I didn't know that they had used an alternate name for the same compound. Tricky bastards, almost seems like they were trying to avoid making that obvious.
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Yea, right... nevermind the name of the product itself, with its "coincidental" similarity with Nolvadex...! I'm sure more than a few misinformed people suffered from that one after a cycle.

Actually, it's a bit surprising that AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals never sued Gaspari over that one, given how much big pharma just loves suing supplement companies.

Oh, well. To get back on topic... did I hear someone say TCF-*2* ?! What's up with that?
 
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