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Isn't there anyone who knows what Christmas is all about?

So there was a really cool tradition called Saturnalia and it got ruined with gifts and guilt? Now I really do miss the good old days:)
When was the last time that you celebrated Saturnalia despite what our culture and traditions have done with something you hold so precious, near and dear to your heart, faith and values?

Do you make sure that your loved ones, friends and family remember that Christmas is really not about the birth or Christ but rather a tradition called Saturnalia "to raise morale after their crushing military defeat".

Does your local state and federal government recognize this as a national holiday?

What are your family's traditions in celebrating the near and dear to your heart tradition?

Of course traditions get perverted. But presenting the perversion of traditions simply to antagonize is, well, simply antagonizing.

BTW - Happy Saturnalia (or should is say: "Io, Saturnalia!") to you and yours. :)

The argument can go on forever but it is Christmas, the celebration of the birth of Christ that we celebrate today and have for some 1800 years now - regardless.
 
The celebration of Saturnalia

Saturnalia became one of the most popular Roman festivals. It was marked by tomfoolery and reversal of social roles, in which slaves and masters ostensibly switched places, with expectedly humourous results.

Saturnalia was introduced around 217 BC to raise citizen morale after a crushing military defeat.[1] Originally celebrated for a day, on December 17, its popularity saw it grow until it became a week long extravaganza, ending on the 23rd. Efforts to shorten the celebration were unsuccessful. Augustus tried to reduce it to three days, and Caligula to five.

Saturnalia involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year. A Saturnalicius princeps was elected master of ceremonies for the proceedings. Besides the public rites there were a series of holidays and customs celebrated privately. The celebrations included a school holiday, the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia) and a special market (sigillaria). Gambling was allowed for all, even slaves; however, although it was officially condoned only during this period, one should not assume that it was rare or much remarked upon during the rest of the year. It was a time to eat, drink, and be merry. The toga was not worn, but rather the synthesis, i.e. colorful, informal "dinner clothes"; and the pileus (freedman's hat) was worn by everyone. Slaves were exempt from punishment, and treated their masters with (a pretense of) disrespect. The slaves celebrated a banquet: before, with, or served by the masters. Yet the reversal of the social order was mostly superficial; the banquet, for example, would often be prepared by the slaves, and they would prepare their masters' dinner as well. It was license within careful boundaries; it reversed the social order without subverting it.[2]

The customary greeting for the occasion is a "Io, Saturnalia!" — Io (pronounced "e-o") being a Latin interjection related to "ho" (as in "Ho, praise to Saturn").[citation needed]
[edit] Saturnalia in literature

Seneca the Younger wrote about Rome during Saturnalia around AD 50 (Sen. epist. 18,1-2):

It is now the month of December, when the greatest part of the city is in a bustle. Loose reins are given to public dissipation; everywhere you may hear the sound of great preparations, as if there were some real difference between the days devoted to Saturn and those for transacting business... Were you here, I would willingly confer with you as to the plan of our conduct; whether we should eve in our usual way, or, to avoid singularity, both take a better supper and throw off the toga.

Horace in his Satire II.7 (published circa 30 BC) uses a setting of the Saturnalia for a frank exchange between a slave and his master in which the slave criticizes his master for being himself enslaved to his passions. Martial Epigrams Book 14 (circa AD 84 or 85) is a series of poems each based on likely saturnalia gifts, some expensive, some very cheap. For example: writing tablets, dice, knuckle bones, moneyboxes, combs, toothpicks, a hat, a hunting knife, an axe, various lamps, balls, perfumes, pipes, a pig, a sausage, a parrot, tables, cups, spoons, items of clothing, statues, masks, books, and pets. Pliny in Epistles 2.17.24 (early second century AD) describes a secluded suite of rooms in his Laurentine villa which he uses as a retreat:

...especially during the Saturnalia when the rest of the house is noisy with the licence of the holiday and festive cries. This way I don't hamper the games of my people and they don't hinder my work or studies.'

Macrobius in Saturnalia I.24.23-23 wrote:

Meanwhile the head of the slave household, whose responsibility it was to offer sacrifice to the Penates, to manage the provisions and to direct the activities of the domestic servants, came to tell his master that the household had feasted according to the annual ritual custom. For at this festival, in houses that keep to proper religious usage, they first of all honor the slaves with a dinner prepared as if for the master; and only afterwards is the table set again for the head of the household. So, then, the chief slave came in to announce the time of dinner and to summon the masters to the table.[3]

The poet Catullus describes Saturnalia as the best of days (Cat. 14.15). It was a time of celebration, visits to friends, and gift-giving, particularly of wax candles (cerei), and earthenware figurines (sigillaria).

To grasp the significance of the holiday, it is important to realise that the status of "slave" in the ancient Empire was very different from the status accorded to slaves later in Europe and the United States. Household slaves did not have legal rights per se, but were accorded an individual distinction that was later not to be afforded them. Slaves were considered indispensable members of any household and a wealthy Roman woman (for example) would spend many hours a week intimately concerned with their welfare and difficulties.

The Talmud and Mishna (Avodah Zara 8a) describes a pagan festival called Saturna which occurs 8 days before the winter solstice. It is followed 8 days after the solstice with a festival called Kalenda. The Talmud ascribes the origins of this festival to Adam, who saw that the days were getting shorter and thought it was punishment for his sin. He was afraid that the world was returning to the chaos and emptiness that existed before creation. He sat and fasted for 8 days. Once he saw that the days were getting longer again he realized that this was the natural cycle of the world, so made 8 days of celebration. The Talmud states that this festival was later turned into a pagan festival.[4][5]
[edit] Saturnalia's relation to Christmas
Main article: Christmas

There is no evidence scripturally or secularly that early Christians in the first century commemorated the birth of Jesus Christ. In fact, in keeping with early Jewish law and tradition, it is likely that birthdays were not commemorated at all. According to The World Book Encyclopedia: "early Christians considered the celebration of anyone's birth to be a pagan custom." (Vol. 3, page 416) Rather than commemorate his birth, the only command Jesus gave concerned a commemoration of his life of any sort actually had to do only with his death (Luke 22:19). It was not until several hundred years after the death of Jesus Christ that the first instances of the celebration of Christmas begin to appear in the historical record. According to the new Encyclopedia Britannica, some who later claimed to be Christian likely "wished the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the 'birthday of the unconquered sun." The festival was celebrated with similar customs (gift giving, feasting) that are done to celebrate Christmas today. Another argument is that Christmas was set on the feast of Sol Invictus, which was also on December 25.
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"For how many years shall this festival abide! Never shall age destroy so holy a day! While the hills of Latium remain and father Tiber, while thy Rome stands and the Capitol thou hast restored to the world, it shall continue."
- Saturnalia

Around Christmas it's often difficult to separate commerce from religion. I want to do something different this year. Put up something other than a Christmas tree and creche to which the wooden wisemen move nearer each day. Maybe I'll wear a funny peaked cap, buy my friends beeswax candles -- useful gifts in the event of a power failure, let my son (as "Lord of Misrule") plan the day, and just maybe I'll celebrate it early... on December 17, the day of the Saturnalia.

The Saturnalia was originally celebrated in Ancient Rome for only a day, but it was so popular it soon it lasted a week, despite Augustus' efforts to reduce it to three days, and Caligula's, to five. Like our Christmas, this important holy day (feriae publicae) was for more than fun and games. Saturnalia was a time to honor the god of sowing, Saturn. But again, like our Christmas, it was also a festival day (dies festus) on which a public banquet was prepared. An effigy of the god was probably one of the guests.

The poet Catullus describes Saturnalia as the best of days. It was a time of celebration, visits to friends, and gift-giving, particularly of wax candles (cerei), and earthenware figurines (sigillaria). The best part of the Saturnalia (for slaves) was the temporary reversal of roles. Masters served meals to their slaves who were permitted the unaccustomed luxuries of leisure and gambling. Clothing was relaxed and included the peaked woollen cap that symbolized the freed slave, which looks an awful lot like Santa Claus's peaked red hat . A member of the familia (family plus slaves) was appointed Saturnalicius princeps, roughly, Lord of Misrule.

I'm not alone in my desire to do something... old.

Biblioteca Arcana and Nova Roma offer suggestions for turning December 17 into a celebration of Saturnalia.

Bringing trees indoors to decorate is a modern custom. Nova Roma suggests decorating outdoor trees with sun and star symbols, and using swathes of greenery over doorways, windows, and on people. But Nova Roma emphasizes that decorations are secondary to revelry, feasting, drinking, merry-making, pranks, and gift-giving of Saturnalia. If you can get your friends and neighbors in the spirit, wrangle a parade permit from your municipality so you can dance (like a Roman) in the street.

Biblioteca Arcana's suggestions are for celebrating the religious aspects of the Saturnalia and its two adjoining holidays, the Opalia for Saturn's wife, Ops, goddess of plenty, and the Consualia for Consus, "god of the storage bin." The site provides a complete ritual with an equipment list, information on preparation, location, timing, the banquet, and the conclusion.

Io Saturnalia!

Stand up all ye antagonists of Christian's and our faith and our Christmas. Work out and display your faith(s) and tradition(s) and ritual(s) for us all to see. Be bold for your god and godlessness, be bold for your nothing as we are bold for our Christ!

A FOOL stands for NOTHING and FALLS for ANYTHING!
 
given that it looks like the democrats have won the battle of screwing up our health care in the US, it is time to celebrate the crushing defeat of the constitution and personal responsibility :P
 
Will this be a Roman, Greek, Catholic, Islamic or Jewish celebration. It matters. You know what the non-believers will say.
 
It's basically a backlash towards Christians who keep posting things insinuating the rest of the people either don't get it or are dead inside for not celebrating Christmas properly or being sacrilegious for using X-mas instead of Christmas.

Why not say "I'm thankful for..., I celebrate because..." or any other positive way of putting things instead of making the comparisons to belittle other's beliefs or lack of?

Isn't there anyone who knows what Christmas is all about?

That's pretty insulting to let's say, a Christian who celebrates Jesus' birth in May instead of December. It gets tiring when religious people are always shouting how screwed up everyone else is yet turns into a Tasmanian devil (pun intended) the moment it's mentioned there may be some discrepancies in their information but only after they used that information to point out the wrong doings of others.
The argument now has essentially come down to “Anyone with a brain knows that everything around Christmas has nothing to do with the actual birth of Jesus but that’s the way we’ve been celebrating it so it’s right and because you don’t you’re a heathen”. Applying that same logic to anything else would be looked at as half nuts if not completely ignorant.
Now, is there anybody here that can tell me why most alligators are abnormally aggressive? Anyone?
My Mama says that alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush.
 
And before anyone assumes anything, I am Christian and believe in God. I have problems with the Bible but those are mostly with Man's interpretations and such.
 
When was the last time that you celebrated Saturnalia despite what our culture and traditions have done with something you hold so precious, near and dear to your heart, faith and values?

Do you make sure that your loved ones, friends and family remember that Christmas is really not about the birth or Christ but rather a tradition called Saturnalia "to raise morale after their crushing military defeat".

Does your local state and federal government recognize this as a national holiday?

What are your family's traditions in celebrating the near and dear to your heart tradition?

Of course traditions get perverted. But presenting the perversion of traditions simply to antagonize is, well, simply antagonizing.

BTW - Happy Saturnalia (or should is say: "Io, Saturnalia!") to you and yours. :)

The argument can go on forever but it is Christmas, the celebration of the birth of Christ that we celebrate today and have for some 1800 years now - regardless.



I do pay some homage to my "pagan" ancestors and it's a simple fact that there's a lot of people who would prefer a good Saturnalia or Bacchanal to our present "traditions" if ever given a real choice(look at Vegas and New Orleans as living proof).
 
So B, in essence, what is Christmas about truly? I am in now way here to argue, I am just curious that since the nature of this thread seemed to be a bit of a harsh view of non-theists and hteir perspectives, I am a tad confused. I dont truly understand why you would even include non-theists in this discussion. Kinda curious what the "meaning" is?
 
I do pay some homage to my "pagan" ancestors and it's a simple fact that there's a lot of people who would prefer a good Saturnalia or Bacchanal to our present "traditions" if ever given a real choice(look at Vegas and New Orleans as living proof).
It is also true that the "Christian" is the minority, and yes, you are again correct that society would rather indulge in their specific inclination of debauchery. Your examples are evidence indeed. It's nothing new under our sun. There is no argument here.
 
Just as an aside, there is also a great deal of reference between 12/25 and Sol Invictus, which is part of the religion/cult that Constantine was a believer in prior to his adoption of Christianity on his death bed.
 
Just as an aside, there is also a great deal of reference between 12/25 and Sol Invictus, which is part of the religion/cult that Constantine was a believer in prior to his adoption of Christianity on his death bed.

Are you sure you don't mean Mithras?

He was one of the "other" religions in the area at the time and quite popular with soldiers.

Mithras was said to have been born December 25th.

Eh...doesn't matter. Christianity is a mish mash of about a dozen different beliefs anyway.
 
Its funny you mention Mithras. There was a lot of thought about Mithras and the 25th (or solstice) however, there is not any ancient text that relate him to that day. However, there are actually calendars with the reference of Sol Invictus to the 25th.

On a funny side note, there were many ancients who combined Sol Invictus and Mithras in one. So in essence, we are both correct
 
Are you sure you don't mean Mithras?

He was one of the "other" religions in the area at the time and quite popular with soldiers.

Mithras was said to have been born December 25th.

Eh...doesn't matter. Christianity is a mish mash of about a dozen different beliefs anyway.

I believe you're confusing Catholicism with Christianity.
 
Its funny you mention Mithras. There was a lot of thought about Mithras and the 25th (or solstice) however, there is not any ancient text that relate him to that day. However, there are actually calendars with the reference of Sol Invictus to the 25th.

On a funny side note, there were many ancients who combined Sol Invictus and Mithras in one. So in essence, we are both correct

Isn't it funny how so many religions share important things like the number with a great flood, etc. so many religions story lines are so similar, its interesting
 
Isn't it funny how so many religions share important things like the number with a great flood, etc. so many religions story lines are so similar, its interesting

Indeed, they all borrow from each other. That is why I have a hard time believing any of them. Which one is right? :lol: The flood myth is very interesting. Melting of the last ice age perhaps?

Also, there are around 15-20 ancient religions that used the winter solstice (25th time) as a part of festivals.
 
Isn't it funny how so many religions share important things like the number with a great flood, etc. so many religions story lines are so similar, its interesting

its actually a little scary... if you subscribe to the teachings of the bible in revalations it talks about the end times and one of the signs is the unity of all religons to form one main world religion, and being they share alot of common beliefs would make one think how probable that scripture actually is
 
I believe you're confusing Catholicism with Christianity.

Actually, (not trying to speak for him) it seems that early Christian traditions, prior to the advent of a true Pope (granted, Peter was Bishop of Rome) are somewhat mishmashed and there is a great deal of evidence to support the borrowed ideas thought
 
Its funny you mention Mithras. There was a lot of thought about Mithras and the 25th (or solstice) however, there is not any ancient text that relate him to that day. However, there are actually calendars with the reference of Sol Invictus to the 25th.

On a funny side note, there were many ancients who combined Sol Invictus and Mithras in one. So in essence, we are both correct

Yes, sometimes Mithras is referred to as Mithras Sol Ivictus....Misthra the Sun Conqueror IIRC....
 
So....isn't there anyone who knows what Christmas is all about?

honestly the american version of christmass is gifts, sales, shopping, electronics, packed malls, gretting cards to people you dont like, more fake smiles throughout your day, going to church (even though you dont attend church all year), decorations, lights on houses, people acting like there religious when there actually not, etc...
 
honestly the american version of christmass is gifts, sales, shopping, electronics, packed malls, gretting cards to people you dont like, more fake smiles throughout your day, going to church (even though you dont attend church all year), decorations, lights on houses, people acting like there religious when there actually not, etc...
honestly?
 
This is indeed a hopeless (without hope in anything or anyone) generation.

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."
 
So B, in essence, what is Christmas about truly? I am in now way here to argue, I am just curious that since the nature of this thread seemed to be a bit of a harsh view of non-theists and hteir perspectives, I am a tad confused. I dont truly understand why you would even include non-theists in this discussion. Kinda curious what the "meaning" is?
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

If you don't believe than Christmas might as well be anything else you want it to be.
 
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

If you don't believe than Christmas might as well be anything else you want it to be.

Not sure I totally understand your reference here. So, with this NT quote is the point that anyone who celebrates christmas must worship jesus on the 25th, even since most know this is not the appropriate date? That would be similar to worshipping mybirth (which is the end of march) at Thanksgiving.

Now, since the point of the thread is what is it about, I will suggest that it is about truly seeing and feeling kindness and kinship amongest our fellow "earthlings". :)
 
Not sure I totally understand your reference here. So, with this NT quote is the point that anyone who celebrates christmas must worship jesus on the 25th, even since most know this is not the appropriate date?
Yes. It is Christmas and it is the birth of Christ Jesus that is being recognized. The splitting of hairs on the actual calander date does not change that.
That would be similar to worshipping mybirth (which is the end of march) at Thanksgiving.
Recognition and worship are not the same. I can recognize your birthday belated as it may be at Thanksgiving. I image you may be grateful I recognized you at all.

Now, since the point of the thread is what is it about, I will suggest that it is about truly seeing and feeling kindness and kinship amongest our fellow "earthlings". :)
Those certainly are characteristics that one would expect.

Will man forever miss the Spirit for the letter?
 
I disagree, I think the "spirit" is not being missed at all if people are behaving in a manner that is to benefit their fellow man

Now I think you might be splitting hairs
 
I disagree, I think the "spirit" is not being missed at all if people are behaving in a manner that is to benefit their fellow man

Now I think you might be splitting hairs
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

The significance is stated above with emphasis on the italics. If it is not recognition of the birth of the "Saviour, which is Christ the Lord", then you may as well call it whatever else you like and think of it however else you like. Outside of Christ it is void significance and a "pagan" and "worldly" fabrication.

It is "Spirit", the proper name, that is being missed.

If Christmas (not the calander date of Dec. 25th) is just an other good time for good people to be good to one an other than it is of no significance and may just as well be ignored by the same.

This is not stating that being nice to one another is of no merit in and of itself.
 
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

The significance is stated above with emphasis on the italics. If it is not recognition of the birth of the "Saviour, which is Christ the Lord", then you may as well call it whatever else you like and think of it however else you like. Outside of Christ it is void significance and a "pagan" and "worldly" fabrication.

It is "Spirit", the proper name, that is being missed.

If Christmas (not the calander date of Dec. 25th) is just an other good time for good people to be good to one an other than it is of no significance and may just as well be ignored by the same.

This is not stating that being nice to one another is of no merit in and of itself.
I do understand where you are coming from. I choose to look at it in a different way. Merry Christmas to you B, regardless of our difference of opinion. :)
 
Why that's an easy question to answer. Christmas is a time for GIVING.

So everyone please give me your about to be banned PHs. Thanks and Merry Christmas.
 
I think most people lie to themselves, not all, when trying to state they celebrate Christmas with celebrating Jesus' birth as their only intent. Transgression by tradition...

Traditions of Man are not made of stone and are not incapable of being wrong. Regardless if the government has declared them to be celebrated, regardless if the church has declared them to be celebrated. To be so staunch in one's tradition is in itself a transgression of God's own will.

I've never been shown where the Bible said we must or should celebrate Jesus' birthday or that not doing so was a sin or a symbol of a heathen, non-believer or poor Christian.
 
The SuperBowl and Game Day Traditions Analogy

Tail Gate
Stadium
Sports Bar
Strip Club
House

BBQ, Pizza, Burgers and Dogs, Mexican

Soda, Beer, Mixed Drinks

The Traditions with which you engage in Super Bowl Sunday Festivities make no matter. At the end of the day there had better been a football game played in that stadium. The Super Bowl Sunday is the celebration of a championship football game.

If there is no football game then what do you have?

The traditions and cultures with which you practice the celebration and recognition are not the event. The event is the Super Bowl - a championship football game. If it was a ping pong match it would no longer be the Super Bowl - regardless of your traditions.

EDIT: some of us don't believe in football - only pretend we do to excuse our excessive drinking and the strippers :)
 
Kind of a hard analogy to use but I will say that I know plenty of people who tailgate a game then go home :) The celebration was what was most looked forward to. Same with concerts...

Pretending goes both ways... I wonder how many people have given little Johnny and Sue the newest and shiniest toy with the purpose at the center of their heart hoping to satisfy the one receiving the earthly gift instead of the holy one? After all, what better way to tell Jesus you love him than by purchasing a Buzz Lightyear with retractable wings and real voice and laser!

I'm not pretending to be a devout follower that only lives in direction of the Bible. I believe in God as a supreme being who put this all together. I just don't think he did so by making Adam and Eve populate the world, destroying it by water and saving it with a boat and disappearing while people kill each other while citing God as the reason. Why do they get all of the visual proof and we have to rely solely on faith? Why did they get personal coaching and books written by prophets but suddenly there's an end chapter with no further prophecy allowed? Why does everything have to be interpreted and guessed at? Try raising your children using that method and see how far you make it...

So yeah, I think the Bible is a book written by Men and some possibly inspired by God or witnessed first hand but there's a good chance it's littered with writings of psychopaths and lunatics tripping on the herb of the day.

YMMV
Edit: I think people pick and choose what they wish to follow in the Bible by attaching a sliding scale value to various rules, by-laws and regulation. So people can claim to be religious, not completely follow Bible and at the same time berate others because they didn't follow a particular part that the one pointing the finger does.
 
Kind of a hard analogy to use but I will say that I know plenty of people who tailgate a game then go home :) The celebration was what was most looked forward to. Same with concerts...

Pretending goes both ways... I wonder how many people have given little Johnny and Sue the newest and shiniest toy with the purpose at the center of their heart hoping to satisfy the one receiving the earthly gift instead of the holy one? After all, what better way to tell Jesus you love him than by purchasing a Buzz Lightyear with retractable wings and real voice and laser!

I'm not pretending to be a devout follower that only lives in direction of the Bible. I believe in God as a supreme being who put this all together. I just don't think he did so by making Adam and Eve populate the world, destroying it by water and saving it with a boat and disappearing while people kill each other while citing God as the reason. Why do they get all of the visual proof and we have to rely solely on faith? Why did they get personal coaching and books written by prophets but suddenly there's an end chapter with no further prophecy allowed? Why does everything have to be interpreted and guessed at? Try raising your children using that method and see how far you make it...

So yeah, I think the Bible is a book written by Men and some possibly inspired by God or witnessed first hand but there's a good chance it's littered with writings of psychopaths and lunatics tripping on the herb of the day.

YMMV
Edit: I think people pick and choose what they wish to follow in the Bible by attaching a sliding scale value to various rules, by-laws and regulation. So people can claim to be religious, not completely follow Bible and at the same time berate others because they didn't follow a particular part that the one pointing the finger does.

Amazingly well written post!!!!! First post I read in this entire thread that I can say I agree 100%!! and it actually makes sense. Reps to u bro.. I entirely feel the same way.
 
Why do they get all of the visual proof and we have to rely solely on faith? Why did they get personal coaching and books written by prophets but suddenly there's an end chapter with no further prophecy allowed? Why does everything have to be interpreted and guessed at? Try raising your children using that method and see how far you make it...
Because after they saw signs: Moses Burning bush, parting the sea, healing the sick, blind to see, raising the dead, in the end they FORGET what they saw and continued in their disobedience, living in their sin like nothing ever happened and those signs never rooted in a changed heart.

People don't need to have signs so they will be able to then save themselves. People need to be saved because they are incapable of saving themselves even when they have had the signs to see for themselves with their own two eyes.

EDIT: BTW you can read it in your NT. They asked why and they were told why. "I'm done with signs - you don't pay attention or listen and still simply do what you want anyway" (quote paraphrased)
 
You're a brown nose and a kiss ass. :D

lol... no I actually feel the same way about the bible. Personally I would consider myself an agnostic. I somewhat believe in God or a higher being but dont have that much faith in the bible. I have lots of issues with the bible that I just cant get over and I have NEVER met someone who somewhat shared my viewpoint hence the exciment :D...

but all and all on the original thread topic.. I feel this whole convo has turned too religious and I dont feel that Jesus is the meaning of christmas as proven in this thread the traditions that people share from the tre, to decorations, to the exchanging of gifts..all were around way before it was taken over by the church and turned into this celebration of chirst birth.

I think the only religious part in christmas is everyone pretends to be a christian around this time and breaks out the nativity scene and goes to church and sing and listen to someone preach and then the next couple days they go back to however they were.

As a nation I dont think we are a christian nation and I feel TRUE christians are a great minority while FAKE christans are a majority. We are a nation of money and greed first and foremost. Essentially christmas is seriously about buying presents and recieving presents and pretending to be something your not..
 
lol... no I actually feel the same way about the bible. Personally I would consider myself an agnostic. I somewhat believe in God or a higher being but dont have that much faith in the bible. I have lots of issues with the bible that I just cant get over and I have NEVER met someone who somewhat shared my viewpoint hence the exciment :D...

but all and all on the original thread topic.. I feel this whole convo has turned too religious and I dont feel that Jesus is the meaning of christmas as proven in this thread the traditions that people share from the tre, to decorations, to the exchanging of gifts..all were around way before it was taken over by the church and turned into this celebration of chirst birth.

I think the only religious part in christmas is everyone pretends to be a christian around this time and breaks out the nativity scene and goes to church and sing and listen to someone preach and then the next couple days they go back to however they were.

As a nation I dont think we are a christian nation and I feel TRUE christians are a great minority while FAKE christans are a majority. We are a nation of money and greed first and foremost. Essentially christmas is seriously about buying presents and recieving presents and pretending to be something your not..
Jesus loves you! Merry Christmas. :D
 
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