Carbohydrate Cycling Diet vs ketogenic diet??
- Thread starter anbes
- Start date
EasyEJL
Never enough
maybe you are missing my point. every diet type and structure has different pluses and minuses. If one was better in all ways than every other diet structure then nobody would use anything else.
Whenever you eat a small amount (250-750) less calories a day than you take in, you will lose weight and fat. So all diets when applied correctly really work.
Whenever you eat a small amount (250-750) less calories a day than you take in, you will lose weight and fat. So all diets when applied correctly really work.
EasyEJL
Never enough
there is relatively limited data showing a CKD or TKD or any sort of ketogenic diet is significantly better at losing fat + maintaining lean mass than a standard reduced calorie diet that includes carbs. The fact that tons of bodybuilders do it doesn't mean it works better. For a lot I think its just that it helps with hunger, and doing either carb cycling or a CKD with large carbup helps make it easier mentally to deal with carb cravings as you just have to put it off till next high carb day and know that you can go ahead and have the pancakes and syrup that day
anbes
Member
I've asked because filosofic I believe that carb cycling is more healthy and easy to mantain gains or loses. I always put gilt of fat. Its 9kcal per gram! without any lost inside the body. But macdonalds book made some good points in keto diet eith logical arguments.
I choose carb cycling, then I say U how it is!
tks
PS. I am not talking about CKD, I am talking about the diet based on carbs pump up, with some restriction some days, but with limited fat too! The limitation in fat played the rule for me!
Carb and protein got 4kcal per gram, but it takes about 40% to me metabolized, even if it is for instant usage! so at true, carb and protein have something about 2,5kcal per gram!!!
I choose carb cycling, then I say U how it is!
tks
PS. I am not talking about CKD, I am talking about the diet based on carbs pump up, with some restriction some days, but with limited fat too! The limitation in fat played the rule for me!
Carb and protein got 4kcal per gram, but it takes about 40% to me metabolized, even if it is for instant usage! so at true, carb and protein have something about 2,5kcal per gram!!!
B5150
Legend
Is English your first language? Serious question.
Gutterpump
Banned
I think everyone else covered most of this for you, but I just wanted to add that a CKD is no easier than a KD... if this is what you mean... In fact, the carb up days do not make the diet more sane or more manageable. The carb-up days leave you feeling like a zombie that's ready to burst. Bloat, lethargy, and more lethargy lol
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
carb cycling of some sort is more of a lifestyle diet imo and works very well.
ckd is a shock diet and works for short periods of time, again imo.
ive done both and prefer carb cycling over a ckd.
ckd seems to work for those looking to lose large amounts of bf, whereas with a carb cyclic diet ppl seem to do better when they are looking to firm up a little more. with a ckd you are likely to lose more muscle mass if you dont do it correctly and its a very scientific type of diet that requires extensive knowledge of how the diet works and how you respond to macro manipulation.
what up easy?
ckd is a shock diet and works for short periods of time, again imo.
ive done both and prefer carb cycling over a ckd.
ckd seems to work for those looking to lose large amounts of bf, whereas with a carb cyclic diet ppl seem to do better when they are looking to firm up a little more. with a ckd you are likely to lose more muscle mass if you dont do it correctly and its a very scientific type of diet that requires extensive knowledge of how the diet works and how you respond to macro manipulation.
what up easy?
JudoJosh
Pro Virili Parte
no carb cycling is when you have low carb days and high carb days. you never really have no carb days. So for instance it might be 75g carbs monday, 150 tuesday and 200 wed.
hows it going B? I need to email for a sample of rag ultra
the cut diet isnt low carb. You eat lean meat, good mat, and veggies almost every meal. It is on the third day for your last meal it is a carb refeed where you eat a bunch of carbs.
They have it laid out very specific as to what foods to eat and what not too...
I was just wondering if this was like carb cycling or are they 2 different things
danieltx13
Member
If you just want to lose weight period then go with the ketogenic, if you want to lose some weight while retaining muscle mass go for some sort of carb cycling.
Bionic
Well-known member
What does eating carbs have to do with maintaining muscle? Carbs are an energy source. Muscles are built and maintained with protein.
Gutterpump
Banned
As a requirement for instense activity - muscle needs glucose, and if you are in ketosis and have no glycogen, (aka not carb loading), then your body will break down muscle faster during excercise just to fuel the energy needed, and your sessions will be less intense as well. This is why a CKD is more beneficial for active people. I think in a strictly ketogenic diet, muscle will not be maintained as well due to loss of strength and intensity in the gym, and gym sessions will become too catabolic.
ax1
Legend
i do year round strict low carbs, 40 grams a day at most and have plenty of energy. you will be fine and you can make muscle gains no problem if you eat enough protein and quality fats.
just make sure your nutrition is up, you ketones will use your fat as your energy source which is much more stable long term than crappy glycogen. your body creates glycogen is some way anyways but im not qualified to speak about that plenty of info on the net.
Bionic
Well-known member
^^^^Good Post!^^^^
GP, Are you speaking from opinion? Not trying to be disrespectful. I'm just wondering if you have any studies to back up your point? The reason why I'm asking is that I tend to be more athletic and have more energy while in ketosis than when in glucosis. Maybe I'm a freak but I feel GREAT when carbs are restricted. But this is only my experience. If you're taking in adequate protein not only will you not lose any muscle, you will gain.
Gutterpump
Banned
Little bit from experience but mostly from reading on here and other places.
I also feel great when carbs are restricted. But honestly is this good for your leptin if you do this year round without any carb ups? I am not too concerned with the effect on metabolism while remaining in a low carb diet, since I am taking T3/T4 always (HRT). But for the normal person, I have read studies about leptin, metabolism, neurotransmitters, and also effects on intense excercise.
Energy itself is fine while on a restricted carb diet, but muscle endurance will definitely suffer. This I have noticed personally, and many many others as well. Muscle will not use fat during intense excercise...your body will still go through gluconeogenesis during intense activity. It will only burn fat during more steady state training. So muscle breakdown will occur to supply the necessary energy during intense training.
I guess it all depends on how you train. I know that I can't train very well in a depleted state, if I am doing my regular full body circuit. Endurance is really hit hard.
My muscle also feels 'flat' on a restricted carb diet, but for many days after a carb up, I feel like my skin is going to burst (in a good way)...awesome pumps, but I also heavily use YG + NA-RALA during carb ups.
I'm trying to alter my diet to be lower carb in the long term though. I feel so much better overall. I have read that glutathione is really increased heavily while on a low carb diet (in ketosis) and this really helps boost liver function and overall detoxification.
ThomasRivera
Active member
I agree. But you gotta love the carb up effects afterwards.
JudoJosh
Pro Virili Parte
thomas waddup man? havent seen you on the boards in a while.
crazyfool405
Banned
Keto diets hands down. Ketones preservw lean body mass
And the carb cycling you have a switch in metabolism which burns more aminos then ketogenic diets
On top of that. As a natural. Cut on maintence calories in protein and fat. The workouts and cardio will put u in negative energy balance. This is good.
I would like to see a decrease of 100 calories- 200 calories max per day to ensure preserving lean muscle mass.
And the carb cycling you have a switch in metabolism which burns more aminos then ketogenic diets
On top of that. As a natural. Cut on maintence calories in protein and fat. The workouts and cardio will put u in negative energy balance. This is good.
I would like to see a decrease of 100 calories- 200 calories max per day to ensure preserving lean muscle mass.
TheDarkHalf
Well-known member
Any diet will work if you stick to what you outline for yourself. At the end of the day, it's a numbers game. Calories in - Calories out. I have done both diets with success. But I did see my best results with carb cycling. i just think that's because that worked better for me and my body responded to that better than CKD.
faceman35
Active member
I like carb cycling. It keeps me from ever hitting a plateau. Although I do have to really plan out my meals or I will not stick to it. And the no carb days do suck as I feel like doing nothing all day.
My carb days usually go like this
High carb days = Above 200g of carbs a day
Low carb days = 150g of carbs a day
No carb days = 25g of carbs or less
Sometimes I will mess up my no carb days and have to bridge two low carb days in a row. Also the first time I ever did carb cycling I was keeping EVERY days calorie count under my 500 below maintainance. So my weekly total of calories was too deficit and I loss a good amount of muscle mass. So lesson learned. Use your high carb days almost as a re feed day. Dont worry about the # of calories intaked. But dont stuff yourself either. Let that day be the balance for the days in which you wont eat much at all. Now that I have that down I am able to preserve a significant amount more of my muscle mass
My carb days usually go like this
High carb days = Above 200g of carbs a day
Low carb days = 150g of carbs a day
No carb days = 25g of carbs or less
Sometimes I will mess up my no carb days and have to bridge two low carb days in a row. Also the first time I ever did carb cycling I was keeping EVERY days calorie count under my 500 below maintainance. So my weekly total of calories was too deficit and I loss a good amount of muscle mass. So lesson learned. Use your high carb days almost as a re feed day. Dont worry about the # of calories intaked. But dont stuff yourself either. Let that day be the balance for the days in which you wont eat much at all. Now that I have that down I am able to preserve a significant amount more of my muscle mass
nattydisaster
PESCIENCE.com
Personally, carb cycling works way better for me than keto
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
the same goes for me, and I have tried both
discerniblevi
New member
Best cutting / diet method - ketosis, TKD, carb cycle
Some thoughts.. There is so much discussion about different diet approaches to loosing body fat. I have not settled on one yet, although, I am trying the "Targeted Keto Diet" now.
So here are some of the pieces I understand to loosing body fat.
1) Glucagon is the hormone produced by the pancreas that tells the body to utilize body fat to be metabolized for energy.
2) Glucagon is activated in times of low blood sugar / glucose ... opposite to Insulin.
So as I understand it.. the rate and degree to which one can loose body fat depends on when the glucagon hormone is active which is directly proportional to the frequency and duration of keeping blood sugar (glucose low).
The type of food, the amount of food, and the frequency of eating will all influence the above. Additionally, the total calories the body burns (bmr, activity level, etc) and hence the glucose draw from the blood stream and liver (not including glycogen in the muscles).
So I think any of the diets can accomplish this, its then a question of which one will produce the greatest rate of fat loss (and prevent muscle loss which I'll mention next). I believe (only opinion on my part right now) the the order of the diets from those that will cause slow fat loss to those that will provide rapid fat loss are:
1) regular diet which simply lowers carbs a small amount to effect a 500 calorie per day deficit.
2) carb cycling which greatly reduces carbs to bringing them back up to a full load usually cycled over 3 to 4 days.
3) targeted keto diet. standar keto diet, but add carbs targeted just before workout with the aim that they support workout intensity and are burned off as a function of the workout. During times of no carb, low blood sugar activates glucagon to casue fat burn through keto.
4) cyclic keto diet. loads carbs to a person specific level to fill muscle glycogen ie. on a Fri eve and Sat., then allows for a specific workout routine which will draw down no more than the carbs loaded. i.e. M, T weights; W, TH low intensity cardio, F weights or circuit workout. The abscence of carb intake after saturday and to Fri eve keep blood sugar low during the week activating glucagon to cause fat burn through keto.
5) standard keto. no carb loads or targets..
So which one prevents muscle loss or could cause more muscle loss..
Here is how I understand we loose muscle:
1) over training in the gym: overtraining occurs when the glycogen in the muscle is depleted, there is no glucose in the bloodstream to draw on and the liver has provided what it stored to the bloodstream already. What prevents overtraining? Eating strategically, and not working out so long on a given muscle group in terms of sets, reps, and rest period. Muscle groups can not share their store of glycogen with another muscle.
2) we have voluntary and involuntary muscles: in the abscence of carbs and fat consumed calories, the body will then seek protein first in the blood (as in the protein you drink) the it resorts to protein in the liver, muscles, then other organs ... (called gluconeogenesis) in that priority. if there is no mechanical activity required of the voluntary muscles (ie the couch potatoe) then there is no energy consumption. But our involuntary muscles are still consuming energy for vital life support. Your brain consumes 20% of your calories!
So how do you prevent muscle loss.. dont let your bodily energy requirements deplete you carb and fat calories which includes the glycogen in the muscles, glucose in the blood stream, and glycogen in the liver... and of course provide the protein/amino acids for muscle rebuilding if we are considering that.
So now, how do you activate fat burning (activating glucagon, by low glucose level in the blood stream) while at the same time have the calories for the muscles? I think from the above, you can figure the answer.
My fear with diets that just lower the carbs to create a calorie deficit is that there is not enough to fully activate the glucagon (pancreas) to draw on fat for energy, yet the muscle may be running on a glycogen and glucose deficit (as well as liver glycogen) and have to resort to gluconeogenesis (protein break down).
Thats why Im more receptive to the keto diet. It is producing ketones to supply energy/glucose etc. Obviously not enough ketones if one is still doing intense workouts.. But that is where the cyclic and targeted ketosis diets come in where they ensure the carbs are in place to support the workout and prevent muscle loss. In the case of the cyclic, the workout energy draw has to match the carb load from the weekend. In the case of the targeted keto, the carb load is specific to the exercise sets and is taken just before the workout.
Im not convinced which diet, the cyclic keto or the targeted keto, will have the most rapid fat loss. I have a feeling the cyclic, but it takes a little more coordination. I believe both will prevent muscle loss better than a diet that just reduces carbs for a calorie deficit.
So.. just my opinion based on my current knowledge.
I'd appreciate informed comments as Im still trying to develop a thorough understanding of this myself.
Some thoughts.. There is so much discussion about different diet approaches to loosing body fat. I have not settled on one yet, although, I am trying the "Targeted Keto Diet" now.
So here are some of the pieces I understand to loosing body fat.
1) Glucagon is the hormone produced by the pancreas that tells the body to utilize body fat to be metabolized for energy.
2) Glucagon is activated in times of low blood sugar / glucose ... opposite to Insulin.
So as I understand it.. the rate and degree to which one can loose body fat depends on when the glucagon hormone is active which is directly proportional to the frequency and duration of keeping blood sugar (glucose low).
The type of food, the amount of food, and the frequency of eating will all influence the above. Additionally, the total calories the body burns (bmr, activity level, etc) and hence the glucose draw from the blood stream and liver (not including glycogen in the muscles).
So I think any of the diets can accomplish this, its then a question of which one will produce the greatest rate of fat loss (and prevent muscle loss which I'll mention next). I believe (only opinion on my part right now) the the order of the diets from those that will cause slow fat loss to those that will provide rapid fat loss are:
1) regular diet which simply lowers carbs a small amount to effect a 500 calorie per day deficit.
2) carb cycling which greatly reduces carbs to bringing them back up to a full load usually cycled over 3 to 4 days.
3) targeted keto diet. standar keto diet, but add carbs targeted just before workout with the aim that they support workout intensity and are burned off as a function of the workout. During times of no carb, low blood sugar activates glucagon to casue fat burn through keto.
4) cyclic keto diet. loads carbs to a person specific level to fill muscle glycogen ie. on a Fri eve and Sat., then allows for a specific workout routine which will draw down no more than the carbs loaded. i.e. M, T weights; W, TH low intensity cardio, F weights or circuit workout. The abscence of carb intake after saturday and to Fri eve keep blood sugar low during the week activating glucagon to cause fat burn through keto.
5) standard keto. no carb loads or targets..
So which one prevents muscle loss or could cause more muscle loss..
Here is how I understand we loose muscle:
1) over training in the gym: overtraining occurs when the glycogen in the muscle is depleted, there is no glucose in the bloodstream to draw on and the liver has provided what it stored to the bloodstream already. What prevents overtraining? Eating strategically, and not working out so long on a given muscle group in terms of sets, reps, and rest period. Muscle groups can not share their store of glycogen with another muscle.
2) we have voluntary and involuntary muscles: in the abscence of carbs and fat consumed calories, the body will then seek protein first in the blood (as in the protein you drink) the it resorts to protein in the liver, muscles, then other organs ... (called gluconeogenesis) in that priority. if there is no mechanical activity required of the voluntary muscles (ie the couch potatoe) then there is no energy consumption. But our involuntary muscles are still consuming energy for vital life support. Your brain consumes 20% of your calories!
So how do you prevent muscle loss.. dont let your bodily energy requirements deplete you carb and fat calories which includes the glycogen in the muscles, glucose in the blood stream, and glycogen in the liver... and of course provide the protein/amino acids for muscle rebuilding if we are considering that.
So now, how do you activate fat burning (activating glucagon, by low glucose level in the blood stream) while at the same time have the calories for the muscles? I think from the above, you can figure the answer.
My fear with diets that just lower the carbs to create a calorie deficit is that there is not enough to fully activate the glucagon (pancreas) to draw on fat for energy, yet the muscle may be running on a glycogen and glucose deficit (as well as liver glycogen) and have to resort to gluconeogenesis (protein break down).
Thats why Im more receptive to the keto diet. It is producing ketones to supply energy/glucose etc. Obviously not enough ketones if one is still doing intense workouts.. But that is where the cyclic and targeted ketosis diets come in where they ensure the carbs are in place to support the workout and prevent muscle loss. In the case of the cyclic, the workout energy draw has to match the carb load from the weekend. In the case of the targeted keto, the carb load is specific to the exercise sets and is taken just before the workout.
Im not convinced which diet, the cyclic keto or the targeted keto, will have the most rapid fat loss. I have a feeling the cyclic, but it takes a little more coordination. I believe both will prevent muscle loss better than a diet that just reduces carbs for a calorie deficit.
So.. just my opinion based on my current knowledge.
I'd appreciate informed comments as Im still trying to develop a thorough understanding of this myself.
vassille
Active member
Hi,
I would start to research the highlighted paragraph. What you have talked about in there is not correct.
discerniblevi
New member
Definitely open to your thoughts... focus me in a bit though on which part is not correct..
Most of what my thoughts in the highlighted section are based on what Lyle McDonald wrote...
Also.. My thoughts on a ketosis diet (standard, cyclic, or targeted) is that it be used for fat loss, cutting... short term. I dont intend, nor do I suggest, that it be a long term nutrition strategy... just a short term fat cutting tactic..
BTW.. I'm a few weeks into using targeted keto.. I'm loosing 2 lbs a week so far. Not loosing any lean body mass. Using body fat calipers and skin fold to determine body fat %. Protecting lean mass using a formula to decide maximum calorie deficit based on maximum rate fat stores can provide energy (31 calories * total body fat in lbs)
Subtracting max calorie deficit from a calculated BMR plus activity level.
Have 2 different versions of the above, 1 for workout days and 1 for non-workout days given the difference in activity and nutrition intake.
Maintaining 1.5 g protein per LBM lb on workout days and 1 g per LMB lb on non workout days.
Using corn syrup (no high fructose content) for 5 g per every 2 workout sets taken 30 min pre workout for the targeted carb intake and then doing 30 min low intensity eliptical post workout to use any remaining carb and speed getting back into keto. Take 50g protein shake right after workout. Not adding any carb post workout yet, relying on Insulin buildup from pre workout carb intake.
All seems good right now for a body fat loss goal and while maintaining lean body mass.
(sorry, had useful web links to 3 of my points above but had to remove them because my post count is below 50 .... I dont get that.. the links might have been useful to other people ... oh well)
Most of what my thoughts in the highlighted section are based on what Lyle McDonald wrote...
Also.. My thoughts on a ketosis diet (standard, cyclic, or targeted) is that it be used for fat loss, cutting... short term. I dont intend, nor do I suggest, that it be a long term nutrition strategy... just a short term fat cutting tactic..
BTW.. I'm a few weeks into using targeted keto.. I'm loosing 2 lbs a week so far. Not loosing any lean body mass. Using body fat calipers and skin fold to determine body fat %. Protecting lean mass using a formula to decide maximum calorie deficit based on maximum rate fat stores can provide energy (31 calories * total body fat in lbs)
Subtracting max calorie deficit from a calculated BMR plus activity level.
Have 2 different versions of the above, 1 for workout days and 1 for non-workout days given the difference in activity and nutrition intake.
Maintaining 1.5 g protein per LBM lb on workout days and 1 g per LMB lb on non workout days.
Using corn syrup (no high fructose content) for 5 g per every 2 workout sets taken 30 min pre workout for the targeted carb intake and then doing 30 min low intensity eliptical post workout to use any remaining carb and speed getting back into keto. Take 50g protein shake right after workout. Not adding any carb post workout yet, relying on Insulin buildup from pre workout carb intake.
All seems good right now for a body fat loss goal and while maintaining lean body mass.
(sorry, had useful web links to 3 of my points above but had to remove them because my post count is below 50 .... I dont get that.. the links might have been useful to other people ... oh well)
vassille
Active member
It's ok there are many ppl such with the links you have studied who keep mixing the carbs with keto diets to get the next best thing. I do not like the ups and downs. When your body burns fat for fuel you will def know. If you run out of energy and need carbs to get energy then you not running on fat yet.
A couple of things to note,
Ketones do not supply glucose. Your body can make plenty of ketones if you eat fat and no carbs but those are used mostly by the brain. Fatty acids are used by the muscle. As long as you keep suplying carbs to your body will run mainly on glucose.
I can work out with zero carbs, before or after. Carbs are not necessary for energy to workout. Fatty acids work very well on their own better than glucose in respect to bodybuilding and fat loss.
What you are doing is basically the addition of carbs to supply energy during workouts. It's just a more complicate way to do a low carb diet.
If it works for you by all means do it. Like you said it is a short fat loss program which is fine.
In order to switch your body to burn mainly fat for energy and switch your brain to run mostly on ketones it takes up to 2 months.
A couple of things to note,
Ketones do not supply glucose. Your body can make plenty of ketones if you eat fat and no carbs but those are used mostly by the brain. Fatty acids are used by the muscle. As long as you keep suplying carbs to your body will run mainly on glucose.
I can work out with zero carbs, before or after. Carbs are not necessary for energy to workout. Fatty acids work very well on their own better than glucose in respect to bodybuilding and fat loss.
What you are doing is basically the addition of carbs to supply energy during workouts. It's just a more complicate way to do a low carb diet.
If it works for you by all means do it. Like you said it is a short fat loss program which is fine.
In order to switch your body to burn mainly fat for energy and switch your brain to run mostly on ketones it takes up to 2 months.