Homosexual behaviour widespread in animals according to new study

[BUCKNUTS]

Scientists maybe, biologists not really. The percentage of American scientists who disagree with evolution, whose expertise relates to evolution is about 0.14%. In the rest of the world the figure is much lower.

As I've already pointed out, no one 'believes' in evolution the way they believe in God. No one has any evidence for or against God, so everyone's opinion on the subject is equally valid. The same is not true of evolution. It takes several years at college to even understand the evidence for why evolution is true. Unless you have that education it's incredibly naive to think that your opinion carries any weight what-so-ever.

The people whose opinions matter on evolution are people who have the necessary knowledge to understand it, and their opinion on the subject is about as unanimous as it can be. Attemping to contradict the consensus of the experts just because you don't 'get it' is ridiculous.

You mean 99.9% of biologists who's area of expertise is related to evolution believe in evolution? Wow! That would be a lot like quoting the statistics on percentage of evangelicals who believe in God. You are right I am certainly not a biologist I have only taken a few courses that I needed for my bsn. I have read a lot of info on both sides of the debate and remain unconvinced. I have seen the evolutionists "proofs" and there refutations by the creationist camp and even the same studies quoted as evidence by both camps. It is my own personal belief, based on my admittedly limited knowledge that macro-evolution is science fiction not science fact. I do believe in micro-evolution however species do vary and change, but only on a small scale such as Darwin’s beloved finches and other examples of adaptation.

As to the point of the thread that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, I could easily film my 2 male dogs humping each other (they do so constantly) in my back yard to verify that point. I must have missed the thread where people were arguing that point, probably intentionally.

 

[HardTrainer]

You mean 99.9% of biologists who's area of expertise is related to evolution believe in evolution? Wow! That would be a lot like quoting the statistics on percentage of evangelicals who believe in God.

No, it would be nothing like that. You've either ignored or misunderstood the point I made, so I'll make it again.

Out of all the people who have the necessary knowledge to understand evolution, only 0.14% disagree with it. Only the opinions of people with the necessary knowledge are relevant. It has nothing to do with 'belief'.

There is no knowledge required to understand a belief in God because there is no factual basis for believing or disbelieving in God. That's why we call it 'belief' and that's why everyone's opinion on the subject is equally valid.

A person becomes an Evangelical because they believe in God. Your argument assumes that a person becomes a biologist because they believe in evolution, which is completly backwards.

You are right I am certainly not a biologist I have only taken a few courses that I needed for my bsn. I have read a lot of info on both sides of the debate and remain unconvinced. I have seen the evolutionists "proofs" and there refutations by the creationist camp and even the same studies quoted as evidence by both camps.

Even if you have seen them, unless you are a biologist you don't have the means to understand them fully. This makes your (and my) opinion irrelevant.

Anyone can read can read an article about retroviral DNA in primates or phylogenetic trees, but unless you have an education in biology you can't possibly claim to fully understand it.

It is my own personal belief, based on my admittedly limited knowledge that macro-evolution is science fiction not science fact. I do believe in micro-evolution however species do vary and change, but only on a small scale such as Darwin’s beloved finches and other examples of adaptation.

Again, science has nothing to do with belief. Saying you don't 'believe' in evolution is just as meaningless as saying you don't 'believe' in wave-particle duality or Heisenbergs uncertainty priciple. The people who understand these things can argue about them all day long, but the opinion of a layperson is utterly irrelevant.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

No, it would be nothing like that. You've either ignored or misunderstood the point I made, so I'll make it again.

Out of all the people who have the necessary knowledge to understand evolution, only 0.14% disagree with it. Only the opinions of people with the necessary knowledge are relevant. It has nothing to do with 'belief'.

There is no knowledge required to understand a belief in God because there is no factual basis for believing or disbelieving in God. That's why we call it 'belief' and that's why everyone's opinion on the subject is equally valid.

A person becomes an Evangelical because they believe in God. Your argument assumes that a person becomes a biologist because they believe in evolution, which is completly backwards.

Even if you have seen them, unless you are a biologist you don't have the means to understand them fully. This makes your (and my) opinion irrelevant.

Anyone can read can read an article about retroviral DNA in primates or phylogenetic trees, but unless you have an education in biology you can't possibly claim to fully understand it.

Again, science has nothing to do with belief. Saying you don't 'believe' in evolution is just as meaningless as saying you don't 'believe' in wave-particle duality or Heisenbergs uncertainty priciple. The people who understand these things can argue about them all day long, but the opinion of a layperson is utterly irrelevant.

This is wrong on so many levels but to challenge it would lead to yet another response to counter and in the end what would be the point? :wave2:

 

[HardTrainer]

This is wrong on so many levels but to challenge it would lead to yet another response to counter and in the end what would be the point? :wave2:

Well you started the discussion by criticising my argument. If you don't know what the point of that was then I certainly don't. :wave2:

 

[madds87]

No madds the reason he accepts is not logical. I don't believe in God because almost all preachers agree he exists that would be foolish, of course they do! I have no desire to join this debate it's been done to death on here and is pointless, do your research for yourself there are plenty of secular scientists who have a problem with evolutionary theory.

Buck nuts i was not agreeing and by any means considering evolution. I just wanted his opinion. Your right on comparison. But if he feels as if this is the reason to believe then so be it.

 

[madds87]

Bucknuts so you dont have a stand on creation? That would drive me insane not knowing. The relaxing part of my religion is that i know where im going when i die.

Plus i feel as though that the bible is enough proof. Plus even if i start to question MY belief i have plenty of facts to back it up to help me relax and have faith (some of yall are going to say no, but i have heard more then on evolution), i have plenty of wise people to talk to, try my best to be a good christian, and believe in him, then i have guarenteed place in heaven.

Plus if it only takes a scientist to understand evolution. Why would "joe the plumber" even try to consider it and just believe. That sounds like that takes more faith to believe that than christianity...... And my faith can move mountains and it only takes a grain of sand worth. This is why i believe.

 

[HardTrainer]

Plus i feel as though that the bible is enough proof. Plus even if i start to question MY belief i have plenty of facts to back it up to help me relax and have faith (some of yall are going to say no, but i have heard more then on evolution), i have plenty of wise people to talk to, try my best to be a good christian, and believe in him, then i have guarenteed place in heaven.

Plus if it only takes a scientist to understand evolution. Why would "joe the plumber" even try to consider it and just believe. That sounds like that takes more faith to believe that than christianity...... And my faith can move mountains and it only takes a grain of sand worth. This is why i believe.

The reason it takes a scientist to understand evolution is because it is science. 'Joe the plumber' can certainly read about science and try to understand it if he finds it interesting, but he can't arrogantly suppose that he knows or understands something that people who've been studying it their whole adult lives don't.

When it comes to God, you're free to believe whatever you want because it's not science, it's a belief. I may not agree with your religious views, but ultimately it's your belief and you're entitled to it. Neither of us could disprove the other.

When you start talking about science though, a different set of rules apply, because you can disprove things in science and you disprove them with facts, not opinions.

What I find strange is that so many people go around saying that they don't believe in evolution, and yet I've never heard anyone claim to disagree with quantum mechanics or special relativity. Why the hostility towards evolution but complete apathy towards other areas of science?

 

[AE14]

Hard trainer, I think part of the reason that staunch theists find fault with evolution is that they feel it negates their belief system, which it most certainly does not. At the end of the day, if there is/was a god who created all of this, it is not beyond the scope of their power to use an evolutionary process for their creations. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive

 

[bpmartyr]

Hard trainer, I think part of the reason that staunch theists find fault with evolution is that they feel it negates their belief system, which it most certainly does not. At the end of the day, if there is/was a god who created all of this, it is not beyond the scope of their power to use an evolutionary process for their creations. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive

Agreed.

 

[HardTrainer]

Hard trainer, I think part of the reason that staunch theists find fault with evolution is that they feel it negates their belief system, which it most certainly does not. At the end of the day, if there is/was a god who created all of this, it is not beyond the scope of their power to use an evolutionary process for their creations. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive

I've often suspected as much. But the question still remains: Why do they think that? If so many theists can accept evolution and God without contradiction, why are there so many who can't? Are the theists who accept it just not talking to the other theists or is there some real reason for not wanting to accepting it?

Father George Coyne said something in that video I posted earlier in the thread, that struck me as oddly profound. To paraphrase: "God didn't just create the universe, he is creating the universe and he's doing it through evolution."

Even as non-religious person, that idea has been giving me food for thought for weeks now. I can't help but wonder: Why would that be such an intolerable idea for a theist?

 

[madds87]

I dont know how theists can accept both. Since they both contradict themselves so much. Especially on the history on time and such.

 

[madds87]

George coyne though is catholic. I dont consider that religion part of my religion. Can be some what similar. But i shy away from catholic belief. George coyne and pope's going after little boys is just another reason. I understand what you meen though i knew a friend that believed in both. She had scripture that backed her up. But it was still iffy, and not a very strong point.

 

[AE14]

They truly don't contradict each other at all IMO. I am sure you are referring to the idea of date of creation found in the OT, which of course if downright silly. Obviously, our conception of time is different then what is mentioned in the bible, I mean seriously Abraham at several hundred years old? I think references to dates etc, are just misconstrued (sp?).

 

[HardTrainer]

Thinking that the universe is several billion years old, not several thousand, has little to do with evolution. It's as much to do with astronomy as anything else. You end up having to ingore quite alot of science to make OT dating work.

Madds, why do you consider the literal interpretation of a Jewish document to be such an essential part of Christian faith?

 

[madds87]

Last time i checked jews killed jesus.

 

[madds87]

Naw honestly, there i dont consider there reilgious views, church tradition, etc. I do like a few minor things. Holy water, addmitance(sp?) of sin, And the cool little zigzag thing they do after they pray.
I also dont agree on how they dont believe jesus is the son of God. Which i believe very strongly.

 

[madds87]

I also dont believe in praying to saints. I only pray to one peson and thats God. Im also Babtist/non-denominational.

 

[madds87]

They truly don't contradict each other at all IMO. I am sure you are referring to the idea of date of creation found in the OT, which of course if downright silly. Obviously, our conception of time is different then what is mentioned in the bible, I mean seriously Abraham at several hundred years old? I think references to dates etc, are just misconstrued (sp?).

Dates are def a confusion. Like how long was one day of creation? was one day in Gods eyes a century? But for abraham and all, one of the main reasons they think were able to be so much older, was before the Flood with Noah and all. I understood this at one time but have forgotten, i will have to find the info again. But one example i give for the idea of evolutionary time, would be from when The US landed on the moon. They had predicted that the moon was billions of years old and thought there would be a thick layer of dust on the moon. so for the landing gear they made very long legs to be able to stand in the "dust". But when they landed there was hardly any dust.... Just for an example. But i will see if i can find this information, or if you want to look it up out of curiosity.

 

[HardTrainer]

Dates are def a confusion. Like how long was one day of creation? was one day in Gods eyes a century? But for abraham and all, one of the main reasons they think were able to be so much older, was before the Flood with Noah and all. I understood this at one time but have forgotten, i will have to find the info again. But one example i give for the idea of evolutionary time, would be from when The US landed on the moon. They had predicted that the moon was billions of years old and thought there would be a thick layer of dust on the moon. so for the landing gear they made very long legs to be able to stand in the "dust". But when they landed there was hardly any dust.... Just for an example. But i will see if i can find this information, or if you want to look it up out of curiosity.

Yet again, taken from the site in my sig:

1. The high number for dust accumulation (14 million tons per year on earth) comes from the high end of a single preliminary measurement that has long been obsolete. Other higher estimates come from even more obsolete sources, although they are sometimes incorrectly cited as being more recent. The actual influx is about 22,000 to 44,000 tons per year on earth and around 840 tons per year on the moon.

The story that scientists worried about astronauts sinking in moon dust is a total fabrication. As early as 1965, scientists were confident, based on optical properties of the moon's surface, that dust was not extensive. Surveyor I, in May 1966, confirmed this.

 

[B5150]

Now this posess the question; is homosexuality a natural occurance on the moon?

 

[DAdams91982]

Now this posess the question; is homosexuality a natural occurance on the moon?

I think you meant: Now thats a moon shot into Uranus!

 

[CDB]

It all still stands. If you are so willing to call my logic flawed, then throw something up worth a damn rather than just trying to say I am wrong. I do not see why the CDC is taken as not a credible source, but if so, then damn well rebut them. You have done nothing to affirm your position but try and say mine is wrong.

I have no need to post anything since I'm not claiming anything in particuler. Bottom line is you can't take raw stats like that and attribute cause without a whole lot deeper study. It's like saying there must be a midget under the hood of every car stoking a fire to get the car going, and then posting temperature figures to prove it; See?! The hood gets ****ing hot man...! Analogously, someone points out that isn't exactly evidence for a midget stoking a fire anymore than it is evidence for anything else that might generate heat. There's no burden of proof on that person to post evidence that it isn't a midget. You're the one trying to make a case, prove it. Those stats don't even come close to doing it on any rational basis.

 

[CDB]

Presumably God also invented grammar and paragraphs and **** like that. Try using them. As per one particular point in your post that you Jesus (capitalized as it is a name you know...) freaks always get confused, faith and knowledge are not one int he same thing. In fact they are mutually exclusive. Knowledge makes faith meaningless and unnecessary. If you know something is true you needn't have faith in it. However, if you lack knowledge you can certainly have faith. As such, you either know or have faith whose image you were created in, and if you know then you can present rational proof of such knowlege.

I belive that this thread was created to try and get some of us jesus freaks all riled up. Or some one just wanted to hear some truth, either way it goes it pointless. Its stupid to even try and rationalize homosexuality because animals do it. They are what they are, animals, beast and etc. Now if you want to compair your self to a animal thats fine with me, I know whos image I was created in. Also I hate when people talk about Jesus they try to turn it into Religion, for all my spiritual ignorant folks, Jesus wasnt religious. Now you are right when you say that relgion creates a lot of problems. Why ? Because Religion is man made not God made. just like theories and ideas that have produced no proof that God dosent exist. We all know that Jesus was a true living Person. There is all sorts of proof about that, Still havent found a Body though. Anyhow lets take what the Bible says out of this for a second and just base homosexualality on nature, well we cant because it goes aginst the very laws of nature. It holds no importance in even existing. The whole concept of nature and life is existance and continuing life, Not stopping it. We all know That homosexuality produces nothing, Its taken more lives than producing any. And for all the Darwinist, why havent we evolved to the point to where we can produce babies if it is in are nature. I mean surley nature would have adapted by now since we were created from nothing and have developed into to these complex beings. Let me school you about why Homosexuality is a sin and is anti God kids. In the very beginning God Told Adam and Eve to be fruitfull and to Multiply, and to fill the earth with other human beings, We will stop right there because as soon as satin heard this, he instantly wanted to stop the production of life, The whole old testament shows that the devil tries to polute the blood line that The Christ would be born From, so any how instead of allowing a life that has a choice to choose God, satin said lets just put a stop to this all together and there you have it. I mean satin is a homo and the bible tells us that the antichrist will be Homo, correct. And also for my spiritual ignorant folks, lets just look at a homosexuals manorisims and ways of acting. They all act the same even the down low cats, they try and hide it but if you have a gift of discernment you can see right through them. They act the same, talk the same walk the same like the same things because they are under the control of a demonic preverse spirit, so it shows who it is by the host actions. There are millions of homos that have never met and they act the same because they are infected by the same spirit. OH, what about lesbians, the same goes for them, they act the same exspeacialy the butch ones you can spot them from a mile away, its pretty unnatural, And goes aginst the laws of nature. A woman has a womb for a reason. I mean come on evolution you couldnt even evolve a mans rectum to produce lubrication for his life partner, since Homosexuality is normal. No a man had to make up lube for you so you would not tear your boyfreinds rectum all up oh the same for a womans rectum its a sin for a hetro man to stick it in his wifes rectum. Evolution your a mean creator you dont even love the gays, BOO! Man yall need to stop with these lies and open yall eyes, I dont care what yall got to say, yall are the ones being deceived keep playing around and yall gone be right with them gays and murders, liars, theives, phornacators, idoltarous, pedifiles, abortion doctors, obama and everyone else askin for a drop of water because they livin FOUL and dont want to repent. Once agin tha holy spirit had to lay it down, dont be made at me, im just the messenger. Hola at the one that said it first. Oh and Im not judging Im just sayin what most of yall ready know. I hate the sin and the deceiver not the sinner. I pray that they will change there ways.

 

[CDB]

Presumably God also invented grammar and paragraphs and stuff like that. Try using them. As per one particular point in your post that you Jesus (capitalized as it is a name you know...) freaks always get confused, faith and knowledge are not one in the same thing. In fact they are mutually exclusive. Knowledge makes faith meaningless and unnecessary. If you know something is true you needn't have faith in it. However, if you lack knowledge you can certainly have faith. As such, you either know or have faith whose image you were created in, and if you know then you can present rational proof of such knowlege. And in rational argument, faith does not holder water with fact or knowledge, the latter trumps the former.

I belive that this thread was created to try and get some of us jesus freaks all riled up. Or some one just wanted to hear some truth, either way it goes it pointless. Its stupid to even try and rationalize homosexuality because animals do it. They are what they are, animals, beast and etc. Now if you want to compair your self to a animal thats fine with me, I know whos image I was created in. Also I hate when people talk about Jesus they try to turn it into Religion, for all my spiritual ignorant folks, Jesus wasnt religious. Now you are right when you say that relgion creates a lot of problems. Why ? Because Religion is man made not God made. just like theories and ideas that have produced no proof that God dosent exist. We all know that Jesus was a true living Person. There is all sorts of proof about that, Still havent found a Body though. Anyhow lets take what the Bible says out of this for a second and just base homosexualality on nature, well we cant because it goes aginst the very laws of nature. It holds no importance in even existing. The whole concept of nature and life is existance and continuing life, Not stopping it. We all know That homosexuality produces nothing, Its taken more lives than producing any. And for all the Darwinist, why havent we evolved to the point to where we can produce babies if it is in are nature. I mean surley nature would have adapted by now since we were created from nothing and have developed into to these complex beings. Let me school you about why Homosexuality is a sin and is anti God kids. In the very beginning God Told Adam and Eve to be fruitfull and to Multiply, and to fill the earth with other human beings, We will stop right there because as soon as satin heard this, he instantly wanted to stop the production of life, The whole old testament shows that the devil tries to polute the blood line that The Christ would be born From, so any how instead of allowing a life that has a choice to choose God, satin said lets just put a stop to this all together and there you have it. I mean satin is a homo and the bible tells us that the antichrist will be Homo, correct. And also for my spiritual ignorant folks, lets just look at a homosexuals manorisims and ways of acting. They all act the same even the down low cats, they try and hide it but if you have a gift of discernment you can see right through them. They act the same, talk the same walk the same like the same things because they are under the control of a demonic preverse spirit, so it shows who it is by the host actions. There are millions of homos that have never met and they act the same because they are infected by the same spirit. OH, what about lesbians, the same goes for them, they act the same exspeacialy the butch ones you can spot them from a mile away, its pretty unnatural, And goes aginst the laws of nature. A woman has a womb for a reason. I mean come on evolution you couldnt even evolve a mans rectum to produce lubrication for his life partner, since Homosexuality is normal. No a man had to make up lube for you so you would not tear your boyfreinds rectum all up oh the same for a womans rectum its a sin for a hetro man to stick it in his wifes rectum. Evolution your a mean creator you dont even love the gays, BOO! Man yall need to stop with these lies and open yall eyes, I dont care what yall got to say, yall are the ones being deceived keep playing around and yall gone be right with them gays and murders, liars, theives, phornacators, idoltarous, pedifiles, abortion doctors, obama and everyone else askin for a drop of water because they livin FOUL and dont want to repent. Once agin tha holy spirit had to lay it down, dont be made at me, im just the messenger. Hola at the one that said it first. Oh and Im not judging Im just sayin what most of yall ready know. I hate the sin and the deceiver not the sinner. I pray that they will change there ways.

I believe nature produced the species know as man - hetrosexual. When I see scientific evidence of a penis ovulating and a uterus depositing its own sperm I'll be sold on the evolution of the species in order to prevent it's existinction.

Until then there is nothing natural reproductively about two men or two women engaging in sexual activity.

If sex were only used for reproduction, you'd be right. But it isn't, so you're not.

 

[B5150]

If sex were only used for reproduction, you'd be right. But it isn't, so you're not.

If sex were only used for pleasure I'd be wrong. But it isn't.

 

[CDB]

If sex were only used for pleasure I'd be wrong. But it isn't.

Sorry, incorrect. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Sex between males and females, males and males, and females and females, serves multiple functions in social groups in all primates. That was the point, that you trying to posit reproduction as the one and only reason for sex is incorrect. Your attempt to try and throw that back at me with some half baked converse statement is likewise incorrect as you're trying to lay your fallacy at my feet. Sex isn't used only for pleasure, nor did I say it was. Sex isn't used only for reproduction, as you try to say it is. It has multiple uses and can serve different ends in different contexts. As a matter of evolution those species who had reproduction slaved on the back of pleasurable sex out bred those who perhaps didn't, and it isn't hard to see why. That doesn't mean reproduction is the only end it serves.

Homosexual sex happens in nature in other mammals and in other primates, and in humans. It does so without prompting or teaching of any kind. As such it is natural and attempts to say it is otherwise are futile. There is also nothing, except a 2000 year old poorly written book of questionable authenticity and authority, to give any negative moral and/or ethical slant to the action. Arguments based on an invisible space-daddy named The Father and his sidekick The Holy Ghost and (in apparently the first recorded gay marriage since both are apparently male and both swear they never ****ed Mary) their son Jesus, are no more valid than arguments based on Mother Goose or Aesop regardless of how much faith one has invested in the stories.

In fact, it strikes me as fairly obvious that almost all arguments against homosexuality, no matter how they are made be it religious or secular, eventually boil down to, "I don't like it, find it disgusting for INSERT RANDOM INANE REASONING, and therefore it must be wrong on some higher moral and ethical level." They are attempts to elevate personal distaste, usually irrational in nature and if you believe some studies a form of elf loathing, into universal law or moral standard. In reality it's an aesthetic position, nothing more. I don't find the idea of most guys buggering each other too stimulating either. But at least I don't pretend God told me that makes me superior and the buggerers inferior and evil.

 

[B5150]

Sorry, incorrect. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Sex between males and females, males and males, and females and females, serves multiple functions in social groups in all primates. That was the point, that you trying to posit reproduction as the one and only reason for sex is incorrect. Your attempt to try and throw that back at me with some half baked converse statement is likewise incorrect as you're trying to lay your fallacy at my feet. Sex isn't used only for pleasure, nor did I say it was. Sex isn't used only for reproduction, as you try to say it is. It has multiple uses and can serve different ends in different contexts. As a matter of evolution those species who had reproduction slaved on the back of pleasurable sex out bred those who perhaps didn't, and it isn't hard to see why. That doesn't mean reproduction is the only end it serves.

Homosexual sex happens in nature in other mammals and in other primates, and in humans. It does so without prompting or teaching of any kind. As such it is natural and attempts to say it is otherwise are futile. There is also nothing, except a 2000 year old poorly written book of questionable authenticity and authority, to give any negative moral and/or ethical slant to the action. Arguments based on an invisible space-daddy named The Father and his sidekick The Holy Ghost and (in apparently the first recorded gay marriage since both are apparently male and both swear they never ****ed Mary) their son Jesus, are no more valid than arguments based on Mother Goose or Aesop regardless of how much faith one has invested in the stories.

In fact, it strikes me as fairly obvious that almost all arguments against homosexuality, no matter how they are made be it religious or secular, eventually boil down to, "I don't like it, find it disgusting for INSERT RANDOM INANE REASONING, and therefore it must be wrong on some higher moral and ethical level." They are attempts to elevate personal distaste, usually irrational in nature and if you believe some studies a form of elf loathing, into universal law or moral standard. In reality it's an aesthetic position, nothing more. I don't find the idea of most guys buggering each other too stimulating either. But at least I don't pretend God told me that makes me superior and the buggerers inferior and evil.

You, Tom, ****, Harry and the rest of the animal kingdom are free to be as queer as you want. Keep it out of my 6yo's school curriculum.

The rest of your rant is just that. I never used any of what you stated regarding God or religion to justify my stance for disapproval of homosexuality. Take it up with someone else.

 

[lozgod]

Obviously these animals have not heard of jesus, and are all going to hell.

This was definitly the best post in this thread. Very funny. TYVM for making me LOL.

 

[bpmartyr]

Sorry, incorrect. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Sex between males and females, males and males, and females and females, serves multiple functions in social groups in all primates. That was the point, that you trying to posit reproduction as the one and only reason for sex is incorrect. Your attempt to try and throw that back at me with some half baked converse statement is likewise incorrect as you're trying to lay your fallacy at my feet. Sex isn't used only for pleasure, nor did I say it was. Sex isn't used only for reproduction, as you try to say it is. It has multiple uses and can serve different ends in different contexts. As a matter of evolution those species who had reproduction slaved on the back of pleasurable sex out bred those who perhaps didn't, and it isn't hard to see why. That doesn't mean reproduction is the only end it serves.

Homosexual sex happens in nature in other mammals and in other primates, and in humans. It does so without prompting or teaching of any kind. As such it is natural and attempts to say it is otherwise are futile. There is also nothing, except a 2000 year old poorly written book of questionable authenticity and authority, to give any negative moral and/or ethical slant to the action. Arguments based on an invisible space-daddy named The Father and his sidekick The Holy Ghost and (in apparently the first recorded gay marriage since both are apparently male and both swear they never ****ed Mary) their son Jesus, are no more valid than arguments based on Mother Goose or Aesop regardless of how much faith one has invested in the stories.

In fact, it strikes me as fairly obvious that almost all arguments against homosexuality, no matter how they are made be it religious or secular, eventually boil down to, "I don't like it, find it disgusting for INSERT RANDOM INANE REASONING, and therefore it must be wrong on some higher moral and ethical level." They are attempts to elevate personal distaste, usually irrational in nature and if you believe some studies a form of elf loathing, into universal law or moral standard. In reality it's an aesthetic position, nothing more. I don't find the idea of most guys buggering each other too stimulating either. But at least I don't pretend God told me that makes me superior and the buggerers inferior and evil.

Who pissed in your oatmeal this morning? Why are you laying into B like that?

 

[CDB]

You, Tom, ****, Harry and the rest of the animal kingdom are free to be as queer as you want. Keep it out of my 6yo's school curriculum.

Couldn't agree more. Your child's education should be dictated by you and you alone.

The rest of your rant is just that. I never used any of what you stated regarding God or religion to justify my stance for disapproval of homosexuality. Take it up with someone else.

Either way, "disapproval" of homosexuality is in the end no different than disapproval of an oak tree. My post was not a rant, it made a very valid point.

 

[B5150]

Couldn't agree more. Your child's education should be dictated by you and you alone.

Good.

Either way, "disapproval" of homosexuality is in the end no different than disapproval of an oak tree. My post was not a rant, it made a very valid point.

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There was trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

 

[CDB]

Who pissed in your oatmeal this morning? Why are you laying into B like that?

Maybe because I'm sick of seeing gay friends get **** on by mindless nonsense based on 2000 year old mindless nonsense perpetuated by people who wouldn't know a rational argument if it crawled up their ass, laid eggs, and hatched a fricking dinosaur. They are my friends. More generally, they are people who are engaging in acts which are perfectly natural and which are neither immoral or unethical, which harm no one, and they have every ****ing right to be just as happy and get the respect due any other damn human being. All this fear and loathing and psuedo ethical/moral argument about the idea of one man's balls bouncing off another's ass is ****ing ridiculous.

There are three issues really here: 1, the claim that it's unnatural;2, the claim that it is immoral; 3, the claim that kids shouldn't be taught it. One is blatantly incorrect. Two in unanswerable unless you selectively choose pasages from very old books written by very old, primitive men during a time when people lived in their own **** and believed 'the gods' influenced the Earth on a regular basis. Three, has my every support. Let's end public education so every parent can be free from having to subsidize cirriculums they disagree with and be free to choose their child's own path for learning without having to duke it out in townhall. I don't think it's age appropriate to teach toddlers about sexual orientation in any context myself, but guess what? You lost the right to make a definitive statement on that when you ceded the control of the education system to the government. Now all you have is a vote which may be a minority vote, and some allocated time during hearings perhaps, the final decision is left to someone else. Don't like that, argue against the system, not the incidentals you don't like.

 

[bpmartyr]

Maybe because I'm sick of seeing gay friends get **** on by mindless nonsense based on 2000 year old mindless nonsense perpetuated by people who wouldn't know a rational argument if it crawled up their ass, laid eggs, and hatched a fricking dinosaur. They are my friends. More generally, they are people who are engaging in acts which are perfectly natural and which are neither immoral or unethical, which harm no one, and they have every ****ing right to be just as happy and get the respect due any other damn human being. All this fear and loathing and psuedo ethical/moral argument about the idea of one man's balls bouncing off another's ass is ****ing ridiculous.

There are three issues really here: 1, the claim that it's unnatural;2, the claim that it is immoral; 3, the claim that kids shouldn't be taught it. One is blatantly incorrect. Two in unanswerable unless you selectively choose pasages from very old books written by very old, primitive men during a time when people lived in their own **** and believed 'the gods' influenced the Earth on a regular basis. Three, has my every support. Let's end public education so every parent can be free from having to subsidize cirriculums they disagree with and be free to choose their child's own path for learning without having to duke it out in townhall. I don't think it's age appropriate to teach toddlers about sexual orientation in any context myself, but guess what? You lost the right to make a definitive statement on that when you ceded the control of the education system to the government. Now all you have is a vote which may be a minority vote, and some allocated time during hearings perhaps, the final decision is left to someone else. Don't like that, argue against the system, not the incidentals you don't like.

That's great, but I still can't figure out what B did that fits into your loathing.

 

[CDB]

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There was trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

Very poor reasoning for a simple claim for equality before the law. By this otherwise well sounding Rush song, there is also an argument to be made that biological differences between men and women mean the legal system should treat them differently too. There is a very big difference between a Maple tree asking for the opportunity to grow if such is his wont, and the removal of any legal prior restraint stopping him from doing so, and cutting down the Oaks. Sure some gays like all other victicrat groups are asking for special privileges. Most of them are asking for rights/priveleges that are already extended to other individuals and/or couples. And in that case it's not the maples doing the hatchet job, it's the oaks. Because in that case it is the oaks who are asking for special 'rights' and privileges extended to them be maintained but not extended to others.

 

[madds87]

Couldn't agree more. Your child's education should be dictated by you and you alone.



Either way, "disapproval" of homosexuality is in the end no different than disapproval of an oak tree. My post was not a rant, it made a very valid point.

So i guess you agree that you are born with it....

 

[B5150]

I wasn't reasoning. Just singing a song. You can be right, gay, and right to be naturally gay. I'm fine with it either way. Discussing this got old days ago.

BTW - I know and love gay people, one of which is my brother. Still don't approve.

 

[NattyT]

Presumably God also invented grammar and paragraphs and stuff like that. Try using them. As per one particular point in your post that you Jesus (capitalized as it is a name you know...) freaks always get confused, faith and knowledge are not one in the same thing. In fact they are mutually exclusive. Knowledge makes faith meaningless and unnecessary. If you know something is true you needn't have faith in it. However, if you lack knowledge you can certainly have faith. As such, you either know or have faith whose image you were created in, and if you know then you can present rational proof of such knowlege. And in rational argument, faith does not holder water with fact or knowledge, the latter trumps the former.





If sex were only used for reproduction, you'd be right. But it isn't, so you're not.

Man your very late, I havent the slightest idea why you even posted this mess. I havent gotten on this topic since. Please find somthing constructive to the people that are still on this topic, and stop trying to hate on me. I know very well what Im talking about. Faith is the substince of things hoped for and the evidince of things not seen. Without Faith its impossible to please god. I dont care about gay animals and the rest of the bull thats argued about on here, thats why I have not continued in this convo.

As long as the bible says that its a sin and a abomonation for humans in Gods eyes to be homosexual then thats what Im rolling with. And Im shouthin it from the roof tops you feel me. And if you dont like then put your finger in your ears.

I have other things more important to do son, its people out here that want to get off of the loosing side. Im trying to assist them, thats my only concern. I dont care about my spelling and Grammer homie when im on this forum. Im typing and moving on, I dont have the time and its not that serious. As long as you know I rep Christ thats all you need to know about me.

And if you say you a beliver then dont judge me, for my straight to the point attitude, christans need to wake up and stop being so soft and timmid, scared of what the world gone say about you. Dont want to take no persecution, Jesus said the world was gone hate. So if you cant take the heat then get out the Kitchen, because belive me the temp is gonna get turned up in the future.

Jesus is love but he wasnt a COWWARD, and hes was a bout his fathers buisness until the grave just like im gonna be. So please stop or youll be judged for what you say about me, Im a child of the king.

Sorry I had to invade but if yall play ground buddie wouldnt have tried to disrespect me for no reson I wouldnt have even got started, at the end of that night I said my peace and wished all well.:wave2:

P.S. CDB I have Knowledge of God and the Lord because I know what hes done or me, plus we talk everyday and I have faith that hes gonna do what hes ays. OOPS did I misspell that, Lord forgive me

 

[AE14]

Man your very late, I havent the slightest idea why you even posted this mess. I havent gotten on this topic since. Please find somthing constructive to the people that are still on this topic, and stop trying to hate on me. I know very well what Im talking about. Faith is the substince of things hoped for and the evidince of things not seen. Without Faith its impossible to please god. I dont care about gay animals and the rest of the bull thats argued about on here, thats why I have not continued in this convo.

As long as the bible says that its a sin and a abomonation for humans in Gods eyes to be homosexual then thats what Im rolling with. And Im shouthin it from the roof tops you feel me. And if you dont like then put your finger in your ears.

I have other things more important to do son, its people out here that want to get off of the loosing side. Im trying to assist them, thats my only concern. I dont care about my spelling and Grammer homie when im on this forum. Im typing and moving on, I dont have the time and its not that serious. As long as you know I rep Christ thats all you need to know about me.

And if you say you a beliver then dont judge me, for my straight to the point attitude, christans need to wake up and stop being so soft and timmid, scared of what the world gone say about you. Dont want to take no persecution, Jesus said the world was gone hate. So if you cant take the heat then get out the Kitchen, because belive me the temp is gonna get turned up in the future.

Jesus is love but he wasnt a COWWARD, and hes was a bout his fathers buisness until the grave just like im gonna be. So please stop or youll be judged for what you say about me, Im a child of the king.

Sorry I had to invade but if yall play ground buddie wouldnt have tried to disrespect me for no reson I wouldnt have even got started, at the end of that night I said my peace and wished all well.:wave2:

P.S. CDB I have Knowledge of God and the Lord because I know what hes done or me, plus we talk everyday and I have faith that hes gonna do what hes ays. OOPS did I misspell that, Lord forgive me

Just curious when you say you talk to god, how and when does that happen?

Also, you are using the OT, specificallÝ leviticus as your source here. you are aware of the other horrible things it says there correct?

 

[B5150]

Man your very late, I havent the slightest idea why you even posted this mess. I havent gotten on this topic since. Please find somthing constructive to the people that are still on this topic, and stop trying to hate on me. I know very well what Im talking about. Faith is the substince of things hoped for and the evidince of things not seen. Without Faith its impossible to please god. I dont care about gay animals and the rest of the bull thats argued about on here, thats why I have not continued in this convo.

As long as the bible says that its a sin and a abomonation for humans in Gods eyes to be homosexual then thats what Im rolling with. And Im shouthin it from the roof tops you feel me. And if you dont like then put your finger in your ears.

I have other things more important to do son, its people out here that want to get off of the loosing side. Im trying to assist them, thats my only concern. I dont care about my spelling and Grammer homie when im on this forum. Im typing and moving on, I dont have the time and its not that serious. As long as you know I rep Christ thats all you need to know about me.

And if you say you a beliver then dont judge me, for my straight to the point attitude, christans need to wake up and stop being so soft and timmid, scared of what the world gone say about you. Dont want to take no persecution, Jesus said the world was gone hate. So if you cant take the heat then get out the Kitchen, because belive me the temp is gonna get turned up in the future.
Jesus is love but he wasnt a COWWARD, and hes was a bout his fathers buisness until the grave just like im gonna be. So please stop or youll be judged for what you say about me, Im a child of the king.

Sorry I had to invade but if yall play ground buddie wouldnt have tried to disrespect me for no reson I wouldnt have even got started, at the end of that night I said my peace and wished all well.:wave2:

P.S. CDB I have Knowledge of God and the Lord because I know what hes done or me, plus we talk everyday and I have faith that hes gonna do what hes ays. OOPS did I misspell that, Lord forgive me

Matt 5:11-"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my [Jesus'] account."

Matt 10:22-"and you will be hated by all for my name's sake"

Matt 24:9-"you will be hated by all nations on account of My name"

Mark 13:13-"and you will be hated by all on account of My name"

Luke 21:12-"persecute you...for My name's sake"

Luke 21:17-"and you will be hated by all on account of My name"

John 15:21-"But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake"

Acts 9:16-"for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name"

Don't mistake the difference between being persecuted "on account of the name of Jesus" and the persecution you are experience here and now. Not one and the same.

 

[CDB]

That's great, but I still can't figure out what B did that fits into your loathing.

Read back a bit, it was a variation on the standard penis was meant for vagina and nothing else argument.

 

[CDB]

So i guess you agree that you are born with it....

No idea. My guess is you're at least born with the potential which circumstance brings out. Either way, born with it or completely voluntary, it doesn't change the argument. I mean you're born with a certain hair color, does that mean dying it is morally reprehensible for some reason? There probably are people, likely religious zealots, who would come to that conclusion about hair dye and make the same arguments against it as against gays, and it'd be just as much nonsense.

 

[CDB]

Aside from the irony and utter hillarity of you calling something I wrote a 'mess', be well and happy in your dellusion. When reality comes and kicks you in the ass, don't say you weren't warned.

Man your very late, I havent the slightest idea why you even posted this mess. I havent gotten on this topic since. Please find somthing constructive to the people that are still on this topic, and stop trying to hate on me. I know very well what Im talking about. Faith is the substince of things hoped for and the evidince of things not seen. Without Faith its impossible to please god. I dont care about gay animals and the rest of the bull thats argued about on here, thats why I have not continued in this convo.

As long as the bible says that its a sin and a abomonation for humans in Gods eyes to be homosexual then thats what Im rolling with. And Im shouthin it from the roof tops you feel me. And if you dont like then put your finger in your ears.

I have other things more important to do son, its people out here that want to get off of the loosing side. Im trying to assist them, thats my only concern. I dont care about my spelling and Grammer homie when im on this forum. Im typing and moving on, I dont have the time and its not that serious. As long as you know I rep Christ thats all you need to know about me.

And if you say you a beliver then dont judge me, for my straight to the point attitude, christans need to wake up and stop being so soft and timmid, scared of what the world gone say about you. Dont want to take no persecution, Jesus said the world was gone hate. So if you cant take the heat then get out the Kitchen, because belive me the temp is gonna get turned up in the future.

Jesus is love but he wasnt a COWWARD, and hes was a bout his fathers buisness until the grave just like im gonna be. So please stop or youll be judged for what you say about me, Im a child of the king.

Sorry I had to invade but if yall play ground buddie wouldnt have tried to disrespect me for no reson I wouldnt have even got started, at the end of that night I said my peace and wished all well.:wave2:

P.S. CDB I have Knowledge of God and the Lord because I know what hes done or me, plus we talk everyday and I have faith that hes gonna do what hes ays. OOPS did I misspell that, Lord forgive me

 

[NattyT]

Matt 5:11-"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my [Jesus'] account."

Matt 10:22-"and you will be hated by all for my name's sake"

Matt 24:9-"you will be hated by all nations on account of My name"

Mark 13:13-"and you will be hated by all on account of My name"

Luke 21:12-"persecute you...for My name's sake"

Luke 21:17-"and you will be hated by all on account of My name"

John 15:21-"But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake"

Acts 9:16-"for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name"

Don't mistake the difference between being persecuted "on account of the name of Jesus" and the persecution you are experience here and now. Not one and the same.

B5150 It is persecution for speaking whats right and in the name of the lord, hes the one that called me a Jesus freak. Im cool with that. When we look like the lord and talk and walk etc. Then thats what he said would happend, you cant be freinds with the world and freinds with God, it will make you his enemy.

We spend to much time trying to be liked by everyoneand show people and prove people that what they belive is wrong and that they need to realize what they are doing. Romans tells us that they know because god put it in our hearts, it says that he is evident in all his creation. They refuse because they choose to take this road.

It wasnt that we chose god, it was that he chose us. He knew that we would not continue to resist his will. Now You can do things your way and Ill do them mine, You havent seen what I have seen nor been where I have been. And vice versa, It takes a certain type to reach a certain type and the deep are called to the deep.

When I was a sinner I was wild and going hard in the streets, I was a theif, A major phornicator ( thank God I didnt contract HIV) i had no regard for human life, I hung around dope dealers and approved of there life style, I hurt people and many other things, all the time i was being used and exploited. Now since I have been born agin I see the war and the battle I fight, and it is a battle and war each and every day. The devil wants to kill me and my kids my wife and every other person I know. My attitude and personality has not changed from that old person I used to be but is now redirected at satan and his kingdom so all those things I did in sin I will know do back to him.

This is serious buisness, I dont treat life like a bean bag, you cant get to cozy homie. When Jesus sent the desciples out in groups to the surronding regions what did he tell them. He said bless the town that receives you and your word, and if you are rejected then take back your blessing and shake the dust off your feet. He didnt say plead with them or beg or even hang out with them and be cool and freinds and then maybe they will listen. That dosent mean be a jerk or mean or evil but not the other.

Bless you and have a great day.

 

[dsade]

B5150 It is persecution for speaking whats right and in the name of the lord, hes the one that called me a Jesus freak. Im cool with that. When we look like the lord and talk and walk etc. Then thats what he said would happend, you cant be freinds with the world and freinds with God, it will make you his enemy.

We spend to much time trying to be liked by everyoneand show people and prove people that what they belive is wrong and that they need to realize what they are doing. Romans tells us that they know because god put it in our hearts, it says that he is evident in all his creation. They refuse because they choose to take this road.

It wasnt they we chose god, it was that he chose us. He knew that we would not continue to resist his will. Now You can do things your way and Ill do them mine, You havent seen what I have seen nor been where I have been. And vice versa, It takes a certain type to reach a certain type and the deep are called to the deep.

When I was a sinner I was wild and going hard in the streets, I was a theif, A major phornicator ( thank God I didnt contract HIV) i had no regard for human life, I hung around dope dealers and approved of there life style, I hurt people and many other things, all the time i was being used and exploited. Now since I have been born agin I see the war and the battle I fight, and it is a battle and war each and every day. The devil wants to kill me and my kids my wife and every other person I know. My attitude and personality has not changed from that old person I used to be but is now redirected at satan and his kingdom so all those things I did in sin I will know do back to him.

This is serious buisness, I dont treat life like a bean bag, you cant get to cozy homie. When Jesus sent the desciples out in groups to the surronding regions what did he tell them. He said bless the town that receives you and your word, and if you are rejected then take back your blessing and shake the dust off your feet. He didnt say plead with them or beg or even hang out with them and be cool and freinds and then maybe they will listen. That dosent mean be a jerk or mean or evil but not the other.

Bless you and have a great day.

This explains a lot. You, personally, are immoral and therefore latched onto the bible IN ORDER to keep yourself moral (for whatever reason...likely guilt) whereas there are millions that ARE moral (under most accepted definitions) without need of a big brother threatening hell.

I have never been, nor will I ever be a thief or fornicator - and god is nowhere included in my moral reasoning.

You have done nothing but expose your OWN personality type.

 

[NattyT]

Aside from the irony and utter hillarity of you calling something I wrote a 'mess', be well and happy in your dellusion. When reality comes and kicks you in the ass, don't say you weren't warned.

I was happy in it befor I had even heard from you son. You continue to be happy in your world and the things of it, the world and the things of it are passing away each and everyday. You dont need to warn me, Im headed down a one way street and there aint no turning back. I buried that old man a long time ago, he rotten and decayed, aint no gettin back up for him. But thanks anyway.

And I was not speaking from leviticus, but since you know so much you should try reading Ecclesiastes.

 

[B5150]

B5150 It is persecution for speaking whats right and in the name of the lord, hes the one that called me a Jesus freak. Im cool with that. When we look like the lord and talk and walk etc. Then thats what he said would happend, you cant be freinds with the world and freinds with God, it will make you his enemy.

We spend to much time trying to be liked by everyoneand show people and prove people that what they belive is wrong and that they need to realize what they are doing. Romans tells us that they know because god put it in our hearts, it says that he is evident in all his creation. They refuse because they choose to take this road.

It wasnt that we chose god, it was that he chose us. He knew that we would not continue to resist his will. Now You can do things your way and Ill do them mine, You havent seen what I have seen nor been where I have been. And vice versa, It takes a certain type to reach a certain type and the deep are called to the deep.

When I was a sinner I was wild and going hard in the streets, I was a theif, A major phornicator ( thank God I didnt contract HIV) i had no regard for human life, I hung around dope dealers and approved of there life style, I hurt people and many other things, all the time i was being used and exploited. Now since I have been born agin I see the war and the battle I fight, and it is a battle and war each and every day. The devil wants to kill me and my kids my wife and every other person I know. My attitude and personality has not changed from that old person I used to be but is now redirected at satan and his kingdom so all those things I did in sin I will know do back to him.

This is serious buisness, I dont treat life like a bean bag, you cant get to cozy homie. When Jesus sent the desciples out in groups to the surronding regions what did he tell them. He said bless the town that receives you and your word, and if you are rejected then take back your blessing and shake the dust off your feet. He didnt say plead with them or beg or even hang out with them and be cool and freinds and then maybe they will listen. That dosent mean be a jerk or mean or evil but not the other.

Bless you and have a great day.

You keep missing my point. You are not being persecuted here for "sharing the words of Jesus". You are being persecuted for self righteous preaching and conviction.

It is very serious business and I make every attemp to "reach people with the word of Jesus" and then trust the Holy Spirit to convict their hearts. The conviction part is not mine or your job and that is where we are different.

They are free to reject the word of Jesus, but in your case they are rejecting you and that is causing them to never even consider the words you speak.

Christ was also meek, humble, parient, sof spoken, kind, generous, funny....

JMHO

Embrace or repell...let me know which is more fruitful.

 

[NattyT]

This explains a lot. You, personally, are immoral and therefore latched onto the bible IN ORDER to keep yourself moral (for whatever reason...likely guilt) whereas there are millions that ARE moral (under most accepted definitions) without need of a big brother threatening hell.

I have never been, nor will I ever be a thief or fornicator - and god is nowhere included in my moral reasoning.

You have done nothing but expose your OWN personality type.

Im glad that you have not been the things I have been, but im not ashamed of it either. I am also a devoted father and a husband to a beautiful wife, I have helped many inne city youth that have struggled with the same issues in life thrugh my work.

Your still a man with lustful and corrupted ways, and im not saying that to insult you im just being real. God alowed me to exsperiance the things I did for a reason, as long as I didnt stay in them that makes me more than a conquer. Maybe he already knew your week state and knew that you would not survive those things and spared you. My moral state is just fine and am doing well. I would be a little worried about your sittuation of being near perfect and all, satin must like you or somthing because he has no regard for gods creation.

 

[NattyT]

You keep missing my point. You are not being persecuted here for "sharing the words of Jesus". You are being persecuted for self righteous preaching and conviction.

It is very serious business and I make every attemp to "reach people with the word of Jesus" and then trust the Holy Spirit to convict their hearts. The conviction part is not mine or your job and that is where we are different.

They are free to reject the word of Jesus, but in your case they are rejecting you and that is causing them to never even consider the words you speak.

Christ was also meek, humble, parient, sof spoken, kind, generous, funny....

JMHO

Embrace or repell...let me know which is more fruitful.

My bad B5150 I see what your saying and I respect that. I dont feel I have spoken anything other then what the word may say. I have spoken in a way that is not full of scripture and in plain terms, that is all.

I am prepaired to go and be judged by the lord for my goods and bads, I know I dont hit the nail on the head every time. If I speak of my self then god forgive me, but I have not spoken or taken the scripture and twisted it for my good. Embrace but those that wish to be embraced shake the dust off your feet if they do not receive. My words or the lords?

 

[dsade]

Or perhaps I am strong enough and clearthinking enough to have seen the moral and pragmatic consequences of a society full of that behaviour, applied the principle of reciprocity, and realized beforehand the disaster that awaited. I am not perfect by any means, but have worked my hardest to make sure my failing hurt only me.

I have learned from my mistakes, and still see a concept of god as superfluous and unnecessary, since the same behavioural guidelines can be reached without need of him.

And, for the second time...satin is a fabric.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

My words or the lords?

To quote my own moral guideline, The Anchorman:

"You got poop..po..poop..stinky poop coming out of your mouth Ron...poop!"