Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

Homosexual behaviour widespread in animals according to new study

I'm pretty sure that religions pre-date the code of hammurabi. Maybe not religions still in existence, but even your early nature worship would have had the shall not kill, steal, etc as a part of their teachings. Not 100% sure though. Considering that most religions were formed or manipulated in part to be used by the ruling class to control the populations, it would make sense that those tenets were a part :)

The existing religions with the exception of early Hinduism are predated by the babylonians. The religions of that time were all polytheistic. In terms of their rules, guidelines etc... kind of tough to say as Hammurabi was the first written law code that we know of. The Egyptians had an "Oath of Clearance" (awkwardly similar to the 10 commandments) but Hammurabi is still earlier.
 
I'm pretty sure that religions pre-date the code of hammurabi. Maybe not religions still in existence, but even your early nature worship would have had the shall not kill, steal, etc as a part of their teachings. Not 100% sure though. Considering that most religions were formed or manipulated in part to be used by the ruling class to control the populations, it would make sense that those tenets were a part :)

Chicken and egg - however the fact that they make sense and work WITHOUT NECESSITY of anything remotely supernatural makes the religious component superfluous.
 
Again, though, that is neither here nor there in respects to this argument; though I believe you are implying that, in humans, homosexuality is an exclusively higher cognitive choice. To that end, higher executive function only serves to initiate final decisions re: biological imperatives, and subsequently place them within a social context; animal or human, this homosexual tendency exists for a specific biological purpose - reason notwithstanding.

At any rate B, I feel this is nothing more than a Red Herring, relative to the true point at hand: homosexuality and homoeroticism are ubiquitous natural tendencies; and so, the biological argument is removed as a crux-point for the homosexual discourse as a whole. The group(s) opposed to homosexuality often use "A man and a woman is natural, that's how anatomy works" as a talking point. They use it, of course, because biology is a far more legitimate and rational explanation than, say, moral reasoning. What we have left, then, is a much more honest discourse between those who find homosexuality to be morally acceptable, and those that do not, with nothing more than morality as the reasoning.

Higher human function and so forth have little-to-nothing to do with the point at hand! Back to the eating example: you can choose what type of food to put in your mouth, but not the desire and necessity to eat it - and so, to imply sexuality is any different is logically inconsistent. Certain imperatives are inherently beyond the control of rational choice, with homosexuality being one of them.



I feel you are drawing conclusions from premises never presented to you, D. The argument is not, "Animals do it, and so should we", but rather: "It is a natural phenomenon, so the point that it is unnatural must logically be removed from the discourse". Nobody is drawing the conclusion you are, insofar as equating this biological phenomenon with morality. When speaking about biology, I feel it is amiss to begin adding in words such as "right" and "should", because you are projecting a human construct onto an evolutionary phenomenon. In the context of animal-kingdom-wide homosexuality, there is only "it does happen", and not "this means it always should". Again, the point here is that this and other mounting [no punt intended] evidence seem to suggest that, contrary to the suggestions of those that are opposed to it, homosexuality is an inherently natural phenomenon. As I said to B, the only argument then remaining is morality, which is necessarily less attractive to an individual opposed to something, as it is less justifiable.

In simple terms, AE14's evidence removes the ability to say, "Homosexuality is not natural, and therefore should not happen". All the opposition is left with is, "Homosexuality is against my beliefs, and therefore should not happen".
Please understand that it is not a morality issue for me. I am immoral, although it may be selectively by choice or nature, and it renders me a hypocrite to pass a moral judgement on anyone else regardless of their morality or lack of morality.

Not my call.
 
Chicken and egg - however the fact that they make sense and work WITHOUT NECESSITY of anything remotely supernatural makes the religious component superfluous.

no more (or less) superfluous then most of the rest of societal and personal choices, including sexual orientation :D
 
Please understand that it is not a morality issue for me. I am immoral, although it may be selectively by choice or nature, and it renders me a hypocrite to pass a moral judgement on anyone else regardless of their morality or lack of morality.

Not my call.

Then I misunderstand your intentions, insofar as calling homosexuality immoral behavior, B. IMO, that constitutes passing judgment.
 
no more (or less) superfluous then most of the rest of societal and personal choices, including sexual orientation :D

You just missed the whole point of the thread and issue.
 
All the ****s, shits, *******s, ****s, and ****ing fascists must have been spent in the other thread. This one is pretty civil.
 
We therefore have no right to legislate the act or behaviour itself, though we can regulate its public expression.

This is directly applicable to other issues, such as steroid/drug use and invidual freedom for pursuit of happiness.

I agree with these sentiments. i think we are getting at the same thing from a different path.

I do not care about homosexuals in the least, **** do what you want to whoever you want behind closed doors. I think I was kind of brought in because of my stance against terming homosexual unions as marriage, since marriage is rooted in religion.

Adams
 
Funny you are preaching peace for common man, but yet out right chastise a whole group for their beliefs. Funny how the party of peace is quick to turn when the views do not match their own.

Adams

Most of the disapproval of homosexuals I see is from the religious right wing(I'm a republican). And while I admit I do not believe in religion (although raised catholic) I never 'chastised' an entire group (believers?). What I'm saying is that certain views from some religious groups allow no tolerance or debate of the subject.

Personally I couldn't care less about what people do in their private lives. But I honestly doubt homosexuals are doing something they don't have a strong physical and psychological drive to do. While I do not feel the same compulsions toward homosexual tendency, I'm willing to let them be.

I'm not going to have a debate right now about religion, but since you felt the need to compare my support of homosexuals to the belief in gods, will say this. Homosexuals are people, many of which are religious. Their homosexuality is real while their religious beliefs are not. Religion hurts more people than homosexuality ever will. IMO
 
I'm pretty sure that religions pre-date the code of hammurabi. Maybe not religions still in existence, but even your early nature worship would have had the shall not kill, steal, etc as a part of their teachings. Not 100% sure though.

In fairness, it would be utterly impossible for any society to function without the basic laws of not murdering and not stealing, so they probably predate any written record. It seems resonable to assume that the basic idea of morality was probably invented as soon as two animals decided to work together to get food and realised that they couldn't accomplish this without some form of mutual trust. Granted, things have moved on a bit since then.
 
I agree with these sentiments. i think we are getting at the same thing from a different path.

I do not care about homosexuals in the least, **** do what you want to whoever you want behind closed doors. I think I was kind of brought in because of my stance against terming homosexual unions as marriage, since marriage is rooted in religion.

Adams

Marriage as an institution should be legally dissolved anyway, and turned into something non-discriminatory.

For behaviour, I believe it is already legislated - though for certain festivals not enforced. Shall we ban g-strings? Bikinis? Miniskirts? Public hand holding? public kissing beyond 15 seconds?

Whatever rules apply must have strong reasoning, and be applied equally to gay and straight couples.

Haven't seen your wife/husband for a year because of deployment in Iraq? I'm sorry - you are allowed a quick peck on the lips and a 10 second embrace because I find it disgusting - take it in private.
 
You just missed the whole point of the thread and issue.

:) No i didn't. For me, its the question of public display vs private lives. Even if animals do it, and its natural for them doesn't mean that humans have to forcibly broadcast it, or that I don't also have the right to be disgusted and non-approving of it. Its not a question of whether mullet has the right to go hunting for glory holes in bus terminal bathrooms, its ok that he does.
 
Homosexuality has been delt with for hundreds of years, roman times, etc.
Plus what if we consider animals dont have souls and humans do. We can consider whats right and wrong. Everyone struggles with certain things, i think its whether we actually consider our thoughts into our actions. I might have gone besides the point. But i have a hard time considering this study. I mean what if we only just started noticing this? How many times has this study taken place to be compared to? I also think animals will do anything to get off. lol. Plus i have always had to kick my male dog for humping my male cat. lol.
 
Then I misunderstand your intentions, insofar as calling homosexuality immoral behavior, B. IMO, that constitutes passing judgment.
I am not calling you a pompous, arrogant, condescending prick, but if I was to call you a pompous, arrogant, condescending prick, would it be considered passing judgement? :dunno: :D
 
Marriage as an institution should be legally dissolved anyway, and turned into something non-discriminatory.

For behaviour, I believe it is already legislated - though for certain festivals not enforced. Shall we ban g-strings? Bikinis? Miniskirts? Public hand holding? public kissing beyond 15 seconds?

Whatever rules apply must have strong reasoning, and be applied equally to gay and straight couples.

Haven't seen your wife/husband for a year because of deployment in Iraq? I'm sorry - you are allowed a quick peck on the lips and a 10 second embrace because I find it disgusting - take it in private.

I dont like public display of affection accross the board, so your point is moot. As for the Military remark, you know damn well that is already instituted and will remain. Military members are held to a higher moral code than civilians.

Adams
 
Homosexuality has been delt with for hundreds of years, roman times, etc.
Plus what if we consider animals dont have souls and humans do
Yeah...we're going to need a link to a valid study since you are attempting to use this as a premise in an argument.

You cannot use an unproven, or non a priori, premise to prove anything.
 
Most of the disapproval of homosexuals I see is from the religious right wing(I'm a republican). And while I admit I do not believe in religion (although raised catholic) I never 'chastised' an entire group (believers?). What I'm saying is that certain views from some religious groups allow no tolerance or debate of the subject.

Personally I couldn't care less about what people do in their private lives. But I honestly doubt homosexuals are doing something they don't have a strong physical and psychological drive to do. While I do not feel the same compulsions toward homosexual tendency, I'm willing to let them be.

I'm not going to have a debate right now about religion, but since you felt the need to compare my support of homosexuals to the belief in gods, will say this. Homosexuals are people, many of which are religious. Their homosexuality is real while their religious beliefs are not. Religion hurts more people than homosexuality ever will. IMO

Your an idiot if you find that faith is the demon here, instead of the human factor. Religion gets a bad rap because anything anyone of the faith does something bad, it is lambasted in the media as their religion is the cause of all the issues.

So the mammoth AIDS rate in the homosexual community is not hurting anyone, or the rampant drug use? Believe it or not, homosexual culture promotes a scavvy, promiscuous lifestyle.

Adams
 
I am not calling you a pompous, arrogant, condescending prick, but if I was to call you a pompous, arrogant, condescending prick, would it be considered passing judgement? :dunno: :D

Nope, that just means you would be calling me a pompous, arrogant, condescending prick.
 
I, as an intelligent, consciousnes-having species, am proposed, by science have you, to possess something that deferentiates me from the animal species - the ability to reason.

Incorrect. Other species have shown problem solving, ie reasoning, capability. Birds for one. Not so much dolphins if I recall. Animals also have differing levels of language capability, most of it instinctual, but have also shown the ability to learn language to varying degrees.
 
Incorrect. Other species have shown problem solving, ie reasoning, capability. Birds for one. Not so much dolphins if I recall. Animals also have differing levels of language capability, most of it instinctual, but have also shown the ability to learn language to varying degrees.

Of all things, Cuttlefish are actually extremely proficient at associative learning and reasoning. They are incredibly intelligent.
 
Very generalized. This bigotry is not limited to people of religion or faith.

No, but there is a correlation there with high empirical predictive value.

Once my mind is opened and I am enlightened to embrace homosexuality I want you to be my first husband. What do you say? Will you accept my proposal to "civil contract" and live happily ever after? After all it's a "natural thing".

Natural does not mean universal to every individual.

EDIT: I was rude in assuming that you did not already have a husband. I can only hope that polygamy comes to you as naturally to you as it does to the rest of the animal kingdom.

Actually all forms of mating, polygamy, polyandy, and monogamy, are evident in the animal kingdom.
 
Your an idiot if you find that faith is the demon here, instead of the human factor. Religion gets a bad rap because anything anyone of the faith does something bad, it is lambasted in the media as their religion is the cause of all the issues.
Religion gets a bad rap because it makes a virtue out of ignoring evidence and beleiving something that you have no reasonable grouds to beleive. Encouraging delusion is inevitably quite destructive.
 
Yeah...we're going to need a link to a valid study since you are attempting to use this as a premise in an argument.

You cannot use an unproven, or non a priori, premise to prove anything.

Invalid Link Removed

You can even google it. And you will find more.

Then for biblical proof.

Invalid Link Removed

Since the bible can be one of the oldest history books out there. This i think is reasonable proof.
 
Religion gets a bad rap because it makes a virtue out of ignoring evidence and beleiving something that you have no reasonable grouds to beleive. Encouraging delusion is inevitably quite destructive.

Your posts portrays your candor in such discussion, so I will leave you with your BELIEFS!
 
Invalid Link Removed

You can even google it. And you will find more.

Then for biblical proof.

Invalid Link Removed

Since the bible can be one of the oldest history books out there. This i think is reasonable proof.
I was referring to your claim of existenceof a soul....and no, the veracity of info in the bible is such that is counts for naught.
 
I was referring to your claim of existenceof a soul....and no, the veracity of info in the bible is such that is counts for naught.

Well info in the bible could be oppinionated for some people. But i mentioned the soul thing as something to think about. Cause i did not see that it was mentioned. Plus there is no way of proving that. Only theory.
 
Well info in the bible could be oppinionated for some people. But i mentioned the soul thing as something to think about. Cause i did not see that it was mentioned. Plus there is no way of proving that. Only theory.
Actually, it doesn't qualify as a theory either since there is zero evidence for its existence - which is why it has not been brought up in a semi-scientific discussion.

LAcking evidence, it can be quickly discarded.
 
Actually, it doesn't qualify as a theory either since there is zero evidence for its existence - which is why it has not been brought up in a semi-scientific discussion.

LAcking evidence, it can be quickly discarded.

Well "me aint no scientist" so ill sign my way out.
 
Your an idiot if you find that faith is the demon here, instead of the human factor. Religion gets a bad rap because anything anyone of the faith does something bad, it is lambasted in the media as their religion is the cause of all the issues.

So the mammoth AIDS rate in the homosexual community is not hurting anyone, or the rampant drug use? Believe it or not, homosexual culture promotes a scavvy, promiscuous lifestyle.

Adams

Bravo sir, thank you for personally attacking me. AIDS is rampant everywhere. Of course people need to use common sense, that's ridiculous that you would even use that as an example. Drug use is not just rampant among the gays, neither is promiscuity.
 
Bravo sir, thank you for personally attacking me. AIDS is rampant everywhere. Of course people need to use common sense, that's ridiculous that you would even use that as an example. Drug use is not just rampant among the gays, neither is promiscuity.

AIDS Rate:
Invalid Link Removed

DRUGS:
Invalid Link Removed

I said IF you believe that, so it wasn't a personal attack unless you fit that. As for your "Facts", there you go.

Adams
 
can someone post some lesbians making out pictures? i think it would help at this moment. All the ones i've found didn't seem appropriate.
 
AIDS Rate:
Invalid Link Removed

That's nice. Now a rudimentary understanding of stats and biology will help you realize this is nothing unusual since their chosen means of intercourse is higher risk for both parties, and because they were disproportionately exposed at the begining of the spread of the disease because of a lack of information and study, mostly thanks to a straight administration so hell bent on being anti gay they figured better to let 'them' die.

DRUGS:
Invalid Link Removed

Showing they suffer from a tendency doesn't translate to them promoting it. And if gays were so dead set on being drugged up promiscuous hell cats, why are they lobbying so hard for the right to have legally recognized long term monogamous relationships on the order of marriage?

As for your "Facts", there you go.

Adams

Those facts are incidental to the US and how things played out here. Care to look at African stats or the stats of any other country?
 
AIDS Rate:
Invalid Link Removed

DRUGS:
Invalid Link Removed

I said IF you believe that, so it wasn't a personal attack unless you fit that. As for your "Facts", there you go.

Adams

I agreed with you, but homosexuality while it may be a factor it is not the cause. People still need to be responsible for what they do. It can't be blamed on the homosexuality. I'm sure you will agree that certain groups of the population will be more inclined to take risks, such as drug use and sexual risk taking.

But what would you like to be done about it? What is your solution to homosexuality?

I guess i'm trying to say that.. While you may not like homosexuals and might be repulsed at the thought of it, (I don't like to think about it) there isn't really anything you can do about it.

I used to absolutely hate homosexuals when i was younger, but since ive known some of them (and became an athiest), i realized my disdain was unwarranted. Its much less stressful to just accept people for what they are then try to change the world.
 
That's nice. Now a rudimentary understanding of stats and biology will help you realize this is nothing unusual since their chosen means of intercourse is higher risk for both parties, and because they were disproportionately exposed at the begining of the spread of the disease because of a lack of information and study, mostly thanks to a straight administration so hell bent on being anti gay they figured better to let 'them' die.
I must have mistyped facts, or mis-copy and pasted. Where are your facts written? Maybe I just misread your comment.

Showing they suffer from a tendency doesn't translate to them promoting it. And if gays were so dead set on being drugged up promiscuous hell cats, why are they lobbying so hard for the right to have legally recognized long term monogamous relationships on the order of marriage?
Exceptions do not negate the rule. Maybe saying promoting it was off, but the facts still stand.

Those facts are incidental to the US and how things played out here. Care to look at African stats or the stats of any other country?
And how does that have an impact upon the conversation? AIDS is quite a bit more rampant ins say Africa.. so i am missing your meaning.
 
I agreed with you, but homosexuality while it may be a factor it is not the cause. People still need to be responsible for what they do. It can't be blamed on the homosexuality. I'm sure you will agree that certain groups of the population will be more inclined to take risks, such as drug use and sexual risk taking.

But what would you like to be done about it? What is your solution to homosexuality?

I guess i'm trying to say that.. While you may not like homosexuals and might be repulsed at the thought of it, (I don't like to think about it) there isn't really anything you can do about it.

I used to absolutely hate homosexuals when i was younger, but since ive known some of them (and became an athiest), i realized my disdain was unwarranted. Its much less stressful to just accept people for what they are then try to change the world.

I think you are missing what I was actually saying at first. Not so much to lambaste homosexuals, because again... I do not care... they can be drugged up hippies that has sex with lawn mowers, I just don't care. I don't care to fix homosexuality... I utilized that as a rebuttal to you laying all the worlds problems at the feet of the the people who believe in a higher being.

Adams
 
I must have mistyped facts, or mis-copy and pasted. Where are your facts written? Maybe I just misread your comment.

No, you just misunderstand logic. What you are posting is a mix of correlation being used to equal causation and post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Exceptions do not negate the rule. Maybe saying promoting it was off, but the facts still stand.

The facts are subject to a shitload more interpretations than you are letting on. A prevelance of the disease in one demographic does not equal higher risk behavior in terms of higher promiscuity, as there a myriad of other factors which can cause such a difference in rates of infection, not the least of which is a high risk to the nature of the act of gay intercourse which would likely lead to higher rates of infection among them even if they were ****ing less often than heterosexuals.

And how does that have an impact upon the conversation? AIDS is quite a bit more rampant ins say Africa.. so i am missing your meaning.

See above.
 
Back
Top