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bigmoe65 said:
I was wondering the same thing and its great question. I havent used in many years but when I did a cycle I would only use 250mgs of enanthate a week and would make killer gains. I see 500mgs is the reccomended dosage now. That might be fine for a bigger guy (maybe 200+) but for most I think its overkill.



Yes I was referring to lower back pumps and lethargy. I never experienced that from real gear. I have never used a ph/ds. Even though I probably wont ever use again I would love to read the book. Thanks for answering!
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In general I think it is overkill -- especially when the literature has shown lower doses (like 250 mg of test E, or 10 mg of anavar) to have prett good growth promoting effects even when given to subjects with less than optimal diet and exercise programs.

I have heard lower back pumps and lethargy from people on traditional AAS -- the lethargy moreso from people who are also using an AI.
 
OAG said:
What about the idea that you need to front load PCT like many believe with AAS? I remember an old Bill Roberts article that mentioned something hyoooge like 1000mg Clomid on day 1 then either 50 or 100mg day after.......
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I would not recommend taking such high doses of clomid -- maybe you have it confused with HCG? HCG has been recommended as a single hgih dose of 10,000 iu's. Frontloading pct is not a good idea since the drugs used for pct can cause problems of their own -- especially in high doses.
 
OAG said:
And what about your thoughts on the Oliver Star (early 90's Peak Training mag...) method of bulking on insulin and basically protein drinks all day? Most will think its crazy but......
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Insulin is definitely a strong anabolic -- I see no reason to use it unless the benefits far outweigh the high risk level. Protein drinks are unlikely to offset the hypoglycemic response to insulin and could result in hypoglycemic shock. Insulin used by itself is really not a good idea.
 
OAG said:
What about instead of the pulsing idea with PH/PS going with the 2wk cycle/4week PCT (repeat for a year...) concept that again Bill Roberts discussed (Meso articles and that Greek doctor used to talk about it on misc.fitness.weights)?
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2 weeks is not enough to gain significant mass that can be maintained during the off time. Muscle takes time to build. Repeat, muscle takes time to build. Water retention is quick -- muscle is slow. Longer cycles of lower doses are more likely to result in sustainable increases in lean mass and more readily recovered natural test production.
 
I have been enjoying reading threads you have been involved in seth. They are usually very thought provoking and spark interesting debate without people bagging each other clogging up threads. My question is reguarding "pulsing" steriod ie Dosing a short half live steriod every second day usually on workout days. Does your body start producing it own hormones on the off days. If so is this effective and what is your take on this in relation to effectiveness on putting on muscle and the whats happening to the hormones in your body on cycle and when you come off..... as this method you might not need to do a heavy PCT. Thanks
 
sethroberts said:
It should work with any drug provided you know the half-life. If you are taking a drug on a period shorter than the half-life then plasma levels can reach very high levels so it might be advisable to dose less frequently to bring plasma levels down slowly -- the whole idea is not to have levels spike down. The argument that many people make is that injectables, in particular, are self-tapering -- this is true in a sense, but the taper can be very abrupt -- i.e. not necessarily a gentle decline in plasma levels -- again especially so when drugs are injected more frequently than the half-life.
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Thanks again. Then I suppose there would be no need for a 'stasis' period with orals as with an injectable protocol, you would just lower the daily dosage of the oral over say, the course of a week depending on the half life?

Now I just need to find a reference for the half-lives of the common DS out at the moment! :D
 
One question I have is knowing that site of injection as well as volume can make a difference in halflife, can the specifics of the oil used and/or solvents significantly effect halflife?

Also, and this may not work out to a well worded question :) But seeing some of the relatively crazy amounts of products different people use, wouldn't an overall stack of smaller amounts of a number of compounds (as an example, 175mg test-prop as 50mg/eod, 350mg npp as 100mg eod, 175mg tren ace as 50mg EOD) create a better overall anabolic picture than a high dose of testosterone alone - say a 750mg/wk of enan/cyp?
 
wood23 said:
I have been enjoying reading threads you have been involved in seth. They are usually very thought provoking and spark interesting debate without people bagging each other clogging up threads. My question is reguarding "pulsing" steriod ie Dosing a short half live steriod every second day usually on workout days. Does your body start producing it own hormones on the off days. If so is this effective and what is your take on this in relation to effectiveness on putting on muscle and the whats happening to the hormones in your body on cycle and when you come off..... as this method you might not need to do a heavy PCT. Thanks
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I think the idea is that your body will continue to produce endogenous hormones throughout a pulsing cycle -- i.e. that shutdown will be reduced. Until somebody does blood tests (if they have, point me to it) then we will not know for sure how well it works. Depending on the compound, the dose and the frequency of dosing, I believe that there is some merit to pulsing.
 
UKStrength said:
Thanks again. Then I suppose there would be no need for a 'stasis' period with orals as with an injectable protocol, you would just lower the daily dosage of the oral over say, the course of a week depending on the half life?

Now I just need to find a reference for the half-lives of the common DS out at the moment! :D
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Good luck finding those references:)
 
EasyEJL said:
One question I have is knowing that site of injection as well as volume can make a difference in halflife, can the specifics of the oil used and/or solvents significantly effect halflife?

Also, and this may not work out to a well worded question :) But seeing some of the relatively crazy amounts of products different people use, wouldn't an overall stack of smaller amounts of a number of compounds (as an example, 175mg test-prop as 50mg/eod, 350mg npp as 100mg eod, 175mg tren ace as 50mg EOD) create a better overall anabolic picture than a high dose of testosterone alone - say a 750mg/wk of enan/cyp?
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I have not found any evidence that the type of oil will effect the half-life but it is reasonable to assume that it could. Solvents will likely have an effect -- not so much in pharmaceutical preparations but in underground and home-brew products, which typically conatin a lot more solvent I would expect the half-life to be shorter but this is just opinion, not based on any scientific evidence.

I see people throwing a lot of products together but I see veryy little rationale for doing so. The reason for combining two (or more) items together should be to result in a greater effect that simply increasing the dose of a single item.
 
sethroberts said:
More questions?
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I kind off have a couple of questions which basically, are all related.

1. How do you feel about PCT? Would you advise for your conventional SERM? Or are you a proponent of an AI post cycle therapy, due to SERMs potential IGF1 decreasing properties? And, if so, to what extent do you feel AI can be used without negatively altering cholestrol levels.

2. Also, what is your take on estrogen control throughout the cycle?

3. Basically, what I am trying to know is how you feel about estrogen control, in general, and in particular during PCT? As, I feel that this is often an overlooked subject, when we know how essential estrogen is for optimal testosterone recovery, and with most ppl only really worrying about gyno.
 
Marc-Antony said:
I kind off have a couple of questions which basically, are all related.

1. How do you feel about PCT? Would you advise for your conventional SERM? Or are you a proponent of an AI post cycle therapy, due to SERMs potential IGF1 decreasing properties? And, if so, to what extent do you feel AI can be used without negatively altering cholestrol levels.

2. Also, what is your take on estrogen control throughout the cycle?

3. Basically, what I am trying to know is how you feel about estrogen control, in general, and in particular during PCT? As, I feel that this is often an overlooked subject, when we know how essential estrogen is for optimal testosterone recovery, and with most ppl only really worrying about gyno.
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I am not a big proponent of AIs. SERMs seem to work just fine and the "lowering" of plasma IGF-1 that occurs likely has zero impact on muscular gains. I don't feel that AIs can be used without negatively altering cholesterol levels -- while some of the impact can be lessened by taking support supps, it is probabl not enough.

Estrogen control throughout a cycle is often taken too far. Estrogen has beneficial roles in the body and that is antoehr reason AIs are not my favorite -- they lower estrogen too much. I think in many cases, no estrogen control is needed (depending on the cycle of course). Sometimes, it might be wiser to lower doses than to add either an AI or a SERM.

After a cycle, the different hormones can really be messed up (cortisol, estrogen, testosterone, thyroid etc). This is one of the reasons that I am in favor of old-school tapering. Tapering produces less of a shock to the system and will help to prevent severe drops in androgens that can upset the androgen/estrogen ratio.
 
A dbol question - plenty of argument over whether when using for example 30mg of dbol whether to take them all at once vs spread through the day. proponents of spread are trying to keep a steady blood level, proponents of all at once often state there is a certain metabolic limit - something to the effect that you loose the first few mg of any dbol dose due to a metabolic process so taking 10mg 3x a day vs 30mg 1 time results in less bioavailable dbol. What is the best option, and is there any truth to that metabolism concept?
 
EasyEJL said:
A dbol question - plenty of argument over whether when using for example 30mg of dbol whether to take them all at once vs spread through the day. proponents of spread are trying to keep a steady blood level, proponents of all at once often state there is a certain metabolic limit - something to the effect that you loose the first few mg of any dbol dose due to a metabolic process so taking 10mg 3x a day vs 30mg 1 time results in less bioavailable dbol. What is the best option, and is there any truth to that metabolism concept?
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In the scientific literature, there seems to be a bias towards dosing twice a day and this is likely based on the half-life. That being said, people made plenty of gains on Dbol without dividing the doses. It is also true that the larger dose you take at one time, the greater the plasma concentration will be due to decreased loss in the liver. Really, I don't think it makes much of a difference and if it were me, I would probably just dose once per day.
 
With reguards to tapering orals. Lets say you are doing a 5 week cycle @ 50mg of something. Do you start tapering at week 5 onward or start tapering before and at what dosages,over what time frame. eg week6 40, week7 30, week8 etc or do you drop dosages daily. As it is hard to accurately divide a pill can you start tapering by taking the lowest does eg 10mg every second day, every third day etc etc.Cheers
 
wood23 said:
With reguards to tapering orals. Lets say you are doing a 5 week cycle @ 50mg of something. Do you start tapering at week 5 onward or start tapering before and at what dosages,over what time frame. eg week6 40, week7 30, week8 etc or do you drop dosages daily. As it is hard to accurately divide a pill can you start tapering by taking the lowest does eg 10mg every second day, every third day etc etc.Cheers
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I would probably taper down every 3rd day or so but you could also do it weekly. If you were uncomfortable with dividing pills more than a half (i.e. quarters) then you would go to every other day dosing. Let's say you were taking 20 mg per day of superdrol in a 10 mg tablet. You would drop from 20 per day to 10 per day and from 10per day down to 10 eod and then 10 every third day.
 
Was that starting taper from end of cycle or during. In reguards with your superdrol example 20mg to 10mg to EOD to every third day, over how long would you do this for?2 weeks, a month?
 
wood23 said:
Was that starting taper from end of cycle or during. In reguards with your superdrol example 20mg to 10mg to EOD to every third day, over how long would you do this for?2 weeks, a month?
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Sorry, missed that part. Since superdrol is so harsh, I would probably start the taper in the 4th week and them taper down over a one week period. Another possibility would be to switch to a less toxic compound for the taper -- like prostanazol since it is non-methylated. so, stop the superdrol at week 5 and then do 150 mg of stan for a week, then 100 for a week, then 50 for a week, then 25 for a week. This is not optimal but the options are limited when sticking to legal alternatives. But you probably get the idea.
 
Heres a couple of possibly semi-absurd ones, if you feel like taking a stab at them:

After seeing your thoughts on tapering down, which I am certainly interested in reading more about, why, in your eyes, have the old diamond pattern cycles been so debunked/discouraged by the "community" at large(not just am.com, but pretty much everywhere) when essentially, these methods, although dated and certainly not perfect in principal, provided essentially a gradual taper down rather than a cold turkey stop?

And, what,other than liver toxicity, in regards to the, for lack of a better term, currently available oral "designers/prohormones", has prompted/caused the general mindset that 4 weeks is an optimal cycle length, when in days gone by, 8+ week cycles of things like real anadrol, dbol or halotestin were considered the norm, even with their well know potential dangers?

Also, you wrote:

"I see people throwing a lot of products together but I see veryy little rationale for doing so. The reason for combining two (or more) items together should be to result in a greater effect that simply increasing the dose of a single item.",

which Im in total agreement with. What combinations do you feel would make sense, in terms of stacking an injectible with an oral (ph) without getting too much into what your goal might be., ie: bulking, cutting, competition, etc. I guess Im asking would you generally recommend a wet and a dry compound or a "bulker" and a "hardener" together to work in synergy or is there another methodology. For example thoughts on: Test-E and SD, or Test-E with prostan, Deca with Epi, etc. Any thoughts on this or general guidelines?
 
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In reality, how similar is the final compound of a PH or DS to the targeted or advertised AAS? Both in structure, binding affinity, and effect?
 
How does the environment of your body change for existing AAS actions during an GH pulse? Is it immediate; how quickly does it happen; and how long to revert to the pre-pulse status, if indeed it does?

Afterwards, are the changes the same for subsequent GH pulses, or does the environment react differently to the peaks and troughs, provided ample time has passed to reach a stasis?
 
RoadBlocK said:
Heres a couple of possibly semi-absurd ones, if you feel like taking a stab at them:

After seeing your thoughts on tapering down, which I am certainly interested in reading more about, why, in your eyes, have the old diamond pattern cycles been so debunked/discouraged by the "community" at large(not just am.com, but pretty much everywhere) when essentially, these methods, although dated and certainly not perfect in principal, provided essentially a gradual taper down rather than a cold turkey stop?

And, what,other than liver toxicity, in regards to the, for lack of a better term, currently available oral "designers/prohormones", has prompted/caused the general mindset that 4 weeks is an optimal cycle length, when in days gone by, 8+ week cycles of things like real anadrol, dbol or halotestin were considered the norm, even with their well know potential dangers?

Also, you wrote:

"I see people throwing a lot of products together but I see veryy little rationale for doing so. The reason for combining two (or more) items together should be to result in a greater effect that simply increasing the dose of a single item.",

which Im in total agreement with. What combinations do you feel would make sense, in terms of stacking an injectible with an oral (ph) without getting too much into what your goal might be., ie: bulking, cutting, competition, etc. I guess Im asking would you generally recommend a wet and a dry compound or a "bulker" and a "hardener" together to work in synergy or is there another methodology. For example thoughts on: Test-E and SD, or Test-E with prostan, Deca with Epi, etc. Any thoughts on this or general guidelines?
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I believe there are two reasons why diamond pattersn and tapering have fallen out of favor: 1. People believe they are "wasting drug". They can use 2 or 3 more weeks at a high dose rather than pyramidding up and down. 2. People assume that any dose of AAS will totally shut you down as if it were an on/off switch instead of a dimmer. Like pretty much every piece of bro-lore, this sounds reasonable and when repeated over and over again, takes on a life of its own. Maybe a third reason might be that it is not "hardcore" enough to taper up and down.

I think it is the perception that DS and PHs are so much more toxic than AAS both to the liver and just overall that leads people to believe that shorter cycles are necessary. Because there is basically no safety data on these products, noone knows what they are going to do in the long run. We do know that people used to take fairly large doses of Anadrol and even anadrol combined with Dbol for longer than 4 weeks. 4 weeks is hardly enough time to accumulate any "real" muscle growth. If these items are that toxic that they shouldn't be used for more than four weeks, then they probably shouldn't be used. It is the odd thing about bro-lore that it seems to cut both ways -- from the extremely reckless (or careless) to the extremely cautious.

As far as combining compounds, I look to either add compounds that have activities that combine for a positive - or opposing actions that will help to reduce a negative. For instance, some AAS decrease TBG levels which results in increased T3 uptake. This is a positive. So you would want to match compounds that both decrease TBG (or haveone that does not affect TBG and one that does). Some AAS increase CBG levels, which can result in lower free cortisol levels while others decrease CBG. Depending on whether the AAS in your cycle is an 11beta hydroxylase inhibitor you may not want to decrease CBG levels because this would result in more free deoxycorticosterone.
 
cord195148 said:
In reality, how similar is the final compound of a PH or DS to the targeted or advertised AAS? Both in structure, binding affinity, and effect?
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It depends on the compound in question. Just because a DS is advertised to act "just like anadrol" doesn't mean ****. If it does not convert to androl, then it won't act like anadrol. The 4,9 diene dione that is out there will convert to dienolone to some degree but will not convert to tren at all. So, it will act, to some degree like dienolone but will not act like tren. Each AAS has a distinct activity profile and while two compounds may "feel" the same, "feel" doesn't mean ****.
 
cord195148 said:
How does the environment of your body change for existing AAS actions during an GH pulse? Is it immediate; how quickly does it happen; and how long to revert to the pre-pulse status, if indeed it does?

Afterwards, are the changes the same for subsequent GH pulses, or does the environment react differently to the peaks and troughs, provided ample time has passed to reach a stasis?
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Not really sure what you mean by a GH pulse. Maybe you could define what you mean by this.
 
cord195148 said:
How similar are the effects of a SARM to AAS on any given AR? How different?
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There is only one AR. The actions of SARMS at the AR can differ from AAS or testosterone. How much is a big question. SARMS can potentially recruit different cofactors to the hormone receptor complex which couldinduce distinct expression profiles. Expression profiling of SARMs is still in its infancy so we will probably have to wait on that.
 
sethroberts said:
Not really sure what you mean by a GH pulse. Maybe you could define what you mean by this.
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It is my understanding that Growth Hormone in the body is released in pulsatile fashion by the pituitary at different times during a day. The presence of GH released in pulsatile fashion is graphed as a wave with the low growth hormone period graphed as a trough.
 
cord195148 said:
It is my understanding that Growth Hormone in the body is released in pulsatile fashion by the pituitary at different times during a day. The presence of GH released in pulsatile fashion is graphed as a wave with the low growth hormone period graphed as a trough.
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Yes, GH is released in a pulsatile fashion. These pulses have little macro effect on the environment in any way that would be measurable with regard to AAS response since the response to AAS can take up to 24 hours and the cyclical rise and fall of GH happens several times over the course of 24 hours.
 
This is such an interesting thread, major bump to get more questions in.
 
Love the book SETH its worth twice what it sells for in both the information presented and how it is written. Very smart and sleek. Love the cover....have played it off as a textbook 2-3 times already ha
 
Why do I always get brutal heartburn with oral AAS/PS? Never have had this problem when only using injectables...
 
Knowing Steroids has the ability to increase muscle mass, aggression, and sometimes mental acuteness, what are the possibilities of modified steroids in the future, since science will only continue to grow, being used to create super genome soldiers. The possibility of installing a refillable dispenser in the human body is not hard, and you could potentially develop a substance capable of it. Imagine if you will a once every 6 month refill.

Just something I was pondering considering he use of combat stems in wars past, and knowing combat drugs will likely be in our future. I know many PMC contractors are getting in trouble because many of their soldiers use steroids. But if you think about it a steroid enhanced individual, possibly also enhanced by other mentality altering agents could be a force to be reckoned with especially with proper training. And they would have the ability to wield more armor and fire power easier.

Sry random crazy idea. Science is scary after all.
 
sethroberts said:
I would probably taper down every 3rd day or so but you could also do it weekly. If you were uncomfortable with dividing pills more than a half (i.e. quarters) then you would go to every other day dosing. Let's say you were taking 20 mg per day of superdrol in a 10 mg tablet. You would drop from 20 per day to 10 per day and from 10per day down to 10 eod and then 10 every third day.
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So to make sure Im understanding right, lets use Epi as an example for this.

Muscle takes time to build right? Would a 20/20/20/20/20/20 cycle of epi be better than 30/30/30/30 in regards not only to effects but sides? Even if that specific example isnt applicable, the concept accurate?

Also, say I wanted to try to apply the taper ideals to an epi cycle? How would you do that? You can shift it all around, I just Im just having a hard time comparing it to something I know.

Like you said, cycles seem to be shorter with legal PHs but I wonder if making them longer with lower doses would be better all around.


Also, after reading over your book, I noticed you said test+nolva+finatiseride (spelling) is probably the safest stack of AAS known to man.

Now I realize the SERM is there (low dosed) to help because of tests aromatizing but could you use a low dose SERM with a non-arom compound to "keep the balls big"? Clomid has a reputation for bringing them back quickly, could you not low dose it or EOD, or every third day dose it and maybe keep your test production up? I dont see this done a lot and from my limited understanding am wondering why. Enlighten me?

Also,
 
Bump.

Im also wondering if theres a way to determine detection times for things like epi, SERMs, etc. Cant find any info on that.
 
Chargerfball25 said:
Love the book SETH its worth twice what it sells for in both the information presented and how it is written. Very smart and sleek. Love the cover....have played it off as a textbook 2-3 times already ha
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Thanks -- that was the idea with the naming of the book as well as having a plain cover. It is hard to pass off a book with a syringe and a bulging bicep as a textbook :)
 
dalto said:
Why do I always get brutal heartburn with oral AAS/PS? Never have had this problem when only using injectables...
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Don't know the answer to this question. Certain steroids cause decreases while others cause increases in appetite -- maybe somethign to do with acid production -- I will look and see if there is anythign in the lit.
 
Zero V said:
Knowing Steroids has the ability to increase muscle mass, aggression, and sometimes mental acuteness, what are the possibilities of modified steroids in the future, since science will only continue to grow, being used to create super genome soldiers. The possibility of installing a refillable dispenser in the human body is not hard, and you could potentially develop a substance capable of it. Imagine if you will a once every 6 month refill.

Just something I was pondering considering he use of combat stems in wars past, and knowing combat drugs will likely be in our future. I know many PMC contractors are getting in trouble because many of their soldiers use steroids. But if you think about it a steroid enhanced individual, possibly also enhanced by other mentality altering agents could be a force to be reckoned with especially with proper training. And they would have the ability to wield more armor and fire power easier.

Sry random crazy idea. Science is scary after all.
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Supposedly this is one of the DARPA research projects. But as we move more towards robotic combatants, I don't see much place for even enhanced humans on the battlefield because even an enhanced human cannot match the capabilities of a robot -- kind of scary how close it is getting to the storyline of the Terminator movies.
 
sethroberts said:
Thanks -- that was the idea with the naming of the book as well as having a plain cover. It is hard to pass off a book with a syringe and a bulging bicep as a textbook :)
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Ya It was really put to the test when in the course of about a week 3 different girls came over and it was on the counter. Never thought a things about it, and I just said oh its a textbook. One of my good girl friends just said "You would have a textbook like that for fun" lol....Maybe that's more a reflection on me haha

Good stuff. Also really liked your new column in MD.....One of the very few good articles in the magazine. Worth the purchase alone.
 
TexasTitan said:
So to make sure Im understanding right, lets use Epi as an example for this.

Muscle takes time to build right? Would a 20/20/20/20/20/20 cycle of epi be better than 30/30/30/30 in regards not only to effects but sides? Even if that specific example isnt applicable, the concept accurate?
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Assuming that the 20 mg dose is above the threshold necessary to elicit gains in the first place then I would say that the lower dose for longer duration would result in more lean tissue gains than the shorter duration high dose. Lower doses also result in less toxicity allowing them to be taken for longer periods of time.

TexasTitan said:
Also, say I wanted to try to apply the taper ideals to an epi cycle? How would you do that? You can shift it all around, I just Im just having a hard time comparing it to something I know.
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Genrally you would want to taper half the dose at the half-life -- at least with injectables. With orals, since the half-life is relatively short I would probably taper half the dose every 3 days.


TexasTitan said:
Also, after reading over your book, I noticed you said test+nolva+finatiseride (spelling) is probably the safest stack of AAS known to man.

Now I realize the SERM is there (low dosed) to help because of tests aromatizing but could you use a low dose SERM with a non-arom compound to "keep the balls big"? Clomid has a reputation for bringing them back quickly, could you not low dose it or EOD, or every third day dose it and maybe keep your test production up? I dont see this done a lot and from my limited understanding am wondering why. Enlighten me? QUOTE]

This may be the safest stack in terms of reducing estrogenic and androgenic side effects but that doesn't mean it is the best. For one, your winky probably won't work and for a lot of people that is unacceptable. This stack would also probably result in maintaining a decent level of pituitary function depending on the dose of test used. Estrogenic feedback isn't the only thing that shrinks the nuts - -androgenic feedback will too.
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TexasTitan said:
Bump.

Im also wondering if theres a way to determine detection times for things like epi, SERMs, etc. Cant find any info on that.
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You are not likely to find any info on that either. The half-life of tamoxifen metabolites is up to 14 days so depending on how good the detection quipment is and the administered dose, it could be detectable for up to 70 days (maybe more). For the designers, we don't even know the half-life so it is not even possible to take a guess.
 
We have SERMs that lock into receptors selectively and "block" the actions of estrogen in that target tissue. We have SARMs now that selectively lock into target tissues and exert an anabolic/ androgen like effect. Regarding Adrogenetic Alopeca, we have 2 Alpha Reductase Inhibitors that inhibit formation of DHT... Why is there no Modulator that could target the androgen receptor locally (like a SARM) in the scalp and skin and block the local binding of DHT in those tissues, but allow DHT to remain circulating (like a SERM does with Estrogen). Is this possible down the road?inhibiting DHT seems risky for bodybuilders overall. Blocking it would be better, I think?
 
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