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We're a "Nation of cowards"

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Again,look up context.

"To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles.

And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied."

Again however no relationship to racism as you are comparing facing difficulties with the laws of physics with there being a concerted systematic purposeful effort among a group of people to cause difficulties in another group of people.
 
Again,look up context.

"To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles.

And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied."

The NBA and NFL are racist. There are many more blacks per capita playing professional basketball and football than in the rest of society.

The MLB is racist. There are many more hispanics per capita playing professional baseball than are in the rest of society.

Every statistic I've seen you spout falls in line with the attributional errors of the two statements I made above.
 
The NBA and NFL are racist. There are many more blacks per capita playing professional basketball and football than in the rest of society.

The MLB is racist. There are many more hispanics per capita playing professional baseball than are in the rest of society.

Every statistic I've seen you spout falls in line with the attributional errors of the two statements I made above.


We so badly want to absolve our nation of the charge of racism, that we will say anything, believe anything, and come up with any excuse for the conditions faced by persons of color.

Those who dare point out the figures on mortgage discrimination, which demonstrate that people of color are rejected for home loans at two-and-a-half to three times the rate of whites, even when they have comparable incomes and credit records, are called "professional victims," "whiners," and arbiters of the culture of complaint.

Those who mention the poll from the National Opinion Research Center, indicating that between half and 75 percent of whites believe Blacks and Latinos are lazier, more violent, and prefer welfare to work, are called "fear-mongers," who see racists behind every personnel director's door.

Those who note that Black criminals receive harsher sentences than whites, even for the same crime, and with the same prior records, and that those Blacks are thirty percent less likely to receive early parole, are accused of advocating prison and execution "quotas." The real problem of racial bias at every stage of the criminal justice system is sacrificed to an arcane policy debate and is quickly forgotten.

Even a new report from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, which indicates that Black government workers are fired at twice the rate of their white counterparts, even when they have identical educations, seniority, and performance records, fails to inspire those who proclaim the demise of racism to rethink their positions.

The cry of "I'm not a racist, but..." could be a new stanza in the national anthem. It is America's collective cliche. No one is a racist. Black and Latino poverty or that of Southeast Asian immigrants couldn't possibly be the consequence of economic decline, wage stagnation, or discrimination. Everybody gets a fair shot so if they can't cut it, the fault lies not in our institutions, but with theirs: their ghettoes, their penchant for Malt Liquor and crack cocaine, their lack of a work ethic .
 
The NBA and NFL are racist. There are many more blacks per capita playing professional basketball and football than in the rest of society.

The MLB is racist. There are many more hispanics per capita playing professional baseball than are in the rest of society.

Every statistic I've seen you spout falls in line with the attributional errors of the two statements I made above.

You mean the MLB where all of the owners who determine what players teams aqcuire are white?



You mean the NBA and NFL where most of the owners who determine what players teams aqcuire are white?


Those examples are some of the worst ones you could have picked to try and compare to my points.
 
You mean the MLB where all of the owners who determine what players teams aqcuire are white?



You mean the NBA and NFL where most of the owners who determine what players teams aqcuire are white?


Those examples are some of the worst ones you could have picked to try and compare to my points.

You mean the US is racist, when its president is black?
 
We so badly want to absolve our nation of the charge of racism, that we will say anything, believe anything, and come up with any excuse for the conditions faced by persons of color.

Our nation is racist. That exactly what affirmative action, minority scholarships, and the congressional black caucus are. Racist.

Those who dare point out the figures on mortgage discrimination, which demonstrate that people of color are rejected for home loans at two-and-a-half to three times the rate of whites, even when they have comparable incomes and credit records, are called "professional victims," "whiners," and arbiters of the culture of complaint.

Those who dare? Why do you think congress revamped the Community Reinvestment Act? How did that work out for everyone involved. What I'm saying is that, even if racism in lending does exist, which I am not convinced it does, is it worth legislating and dealing with the unintended consequences that always appear?

Those who mention the poll from the National Opinion Research Center, indicating that between half and 75 percent of whites believe Blacks and Latinos are lazier, more violent, and prefer welfare to work, are called "fear-mongers," who see racists behind every personnel director's door.

Those who note that Black criminals receive harsher sentences than whites, even for the same crime, and with the same prior records, and that those Blacks are thirty percent less likely to receive early parole, are accused of advocating prison and execution "quotas." The real problem of racial bias at every stage of the criminal justice system is sacrificed to an arcane policy debate and is quickly forgotten.

Even a new report from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, which indicates that Black government workers are fired at twice the rate of their white counterparts, even when they have identical educations, seniority, and performance records, fails to inspire those who proclaim the demise of racism to rethink their positions.

The cry of "I'm not a racist, but..." could be a new stanza in the national anthem. It is America's collective cliche. No one is a racist. Black and Latino poverty or that of Southeast Asian immigrants couldn't possibly be the consequence of economic decline, wage stagnation, or discrimination. Everybody gets a fair shot so if they can't cut it, the fault lies not in our institutions, but with theirs: their ghettoes, their penchant for Malt Liquor and crack cocaine, their lack of a work ethic .

Luther.....if you were the dictator of the United States and could do anything to fix what you perceive to be racism in the United States.....what would you do? Talk about it? Legislate against it? Reparations? Preferential treatment for minorities? Please, provide a comprehensive plan.
 
Those who dare point out the figures on mortgage discrimination, which demonstrate that people of color are rejected for home loans at two-and-a-half to three times the rate of whites, even when they have comparable incomes and credit records, are called "professional victims," "whiners," and arbiters of the culture of complaint.

Care to supply such evidence? Last I checked the default rates for blacks and whites were about the same, which shouldn't be the case if blacks are being held to a higher standard. Their default rate should be lower than those of whites were that the case.

Those who mention the poll from the National Opinion Research Center, indicating that between half and 75 percent of whites believe Blacks and Latinos are lazier, more violent, and prefer welfare to work, are called "fear-mongers," who see racists behind every personnel director's door.

Or perhaps as people grow up and go out into the real world they see actual experience trumps PC platitudes in the classroom. I came into the professional world with all the PC myths firmly in my brain. They were shattered fairly quickly, when, after moving into HR and employment and dealing with people, I found blacks and to a lesser extent latinos had the most issues at work. They were much more likely to: show up late for work; leave early; take extended lunches; act beligerently toward their supervisors; not show up altogether; have mysterious on the job injuries when they used up all their time off and wanted more; and otherwise perform below department standards. The only exception I've seen to that is latinos in construction, who consistently outwork everybody. And of course I've met and worked with people of both those races and others that work just fine, follow the rules, work hard show up on time. One of the best workers in my current company is black. That doesn't change the fact that whenever I have to deal with the bottom of the bell curve and especially people who constantly have trouble meeting pure baseline requirements like showing up on time, it's disproportionately blacks and latinos.

So those stats might not be all that wonderful to you. To me they are just s reflection of reality.

Those who note that Black criminals receive harsher sentences than whites, even for the same crime, and with the same prior records, and that those Blacks are thirty percent less likely to receive early parole, are accused of advocating prison and execution "quotas." The real problem of racial bias at every stage of the criminal justice system is sacrificed to an arcane policy debate and is quickly forgotten.

Curious, as the last time I looked it was prior records that made the difference in sentencing, and when correct for there was hardly a disparit to be found.

Even a new report from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, which indicates that Black government workers are fired at twice the rate of their white counterparts, even when they have identical educations, seniority, and performance records, fails to inspire those who proclaim the demise of racism to rethink their positions.

Link?

The cry of "I'm not a racist, but..." could be a new stanza in the national anthem. It is America's collective cliche. No one is a racist. Black and Latino poverty or that of Southeast Asian immigrants couldn't possibly be the consequence of economic decline, wage stagnation, or discrimination. Everybody gets a fair shot so if they can't cut it, the fault lies not in our institutions, but with theirs: their ghettoes, their penchant for Malt Liquor and crack cocaine, their lack of a work ethic .

Or perhaps the cry of "I'm not a racist, but..." is the modern attempt to drop PC platitudes and bullshit and deal with race relations on a factual basis and not one of polyanna pie in the sky bullshit. A reality that acknowledges not everything is the fault of whitey, nor is he the only one who might need a swift kick in the ass on a few issues. I'm all for acknowledging systemic racism. I've seen it, I know it exists. I also know that as a matter of stats blacks commit a shitload more violent crimes and at a much higher rate against whites than it is the opposite. It's not roving bands of Scandanavians that make the inner city ghettos unpassable or fathering kids out of wedlock like coked out bunny rabbits.

No, the new cry isn't, "I'm not a racists, but..." It's "I see there are problems related to race in this country, but not all of them are my fault because I'm white, and there are some serious positive aspects on my culture that I can be proud of as well as anyone else, so try getting your own **** together and looking inward for a change instead of heaping the lion's share of the blame for your misfortunes on my ****ing back just because of my skin color."
 
We so badly want to absolve our nation of the charge of racism, that we will say anything, believe anything, and come up with any excuse for the conditions faced by persons of color.

Or some of us want so badly to find someone to blame that they will say anything, believe anything and create and stretch any sort of statistics to prove it.

Does racism cause 2x the teen pregnancy rate? Does racism cause the abandonment of black children by their fathers at double the rate of non-black ? In the end, all it proves is that they are different groups, with different cultural and social values.
 
Our nation is racist. That exactly what affirmative action, minority scholarships, and the congressional black caucus are. Racist. ...

Yeah, racism is for real. I have experienced it myself on numerous occasions, and it can really hurt sometimes. Like this one time I was messin' around with a black ho, and she grabs all down in my pants and says something like... 'Wow! You've got a really big **** for a white boy'. Then I was all like, WHAT?! Can't we just stick to the fact that I have a really big ****? Why it's gotta be a white or black thang, ya know? :D

:slap:
 
Or some of us want so badly to find someone to blame that they will say anything, believe anything and create and stretch any sort of statistics to prove it.

Does racism cause 2x the teen pregnancy rate? Does racism cause the abandonment of black children by their fathers at double the rate of non-black ? In the end, all it proves is that they are different groups, with different cultural and social values.

Right,it's all a figment of their imagination :burnout:
 
Care to supply such evidence? Last I checked the default rates for blacks and whites were about the same, which shouldn't be the case if blacks are being held to a higher standard. Their default rate should be lower than those of whites were that the case.



Or perhaps as people grow up and go out into the real world they see actual experience trumps PC platitudes in the classroom. I came into the professional world with all the PC myths firmly in my brain. They were shattered fairly quickly, when, after moving into HR and employment and dealing with people, I found blacks and to a lesser extent latinos had the most issues at work. They were much more likely to: show up late for work; leave early; take extended lunches; act beligerently toward their supervisors; not show up altogether; have mysterious on the job injuries when they used up all their time off and wanted more; and otherwise perform below department standards. The only exception I've seen to that is latinos in construction, who consistently outwork everybody. And of course I've met and worked with people of both those races and others that work just fine, follow the rules, work hard show up on time. One of the best workers in my current company is black. That doesn't change the fact that whenever I have to deal with the bottom of the bell curve and especially people who constantly have trouble meeting pure baseline requirements like showing up on time, it's disproportionately blacks and latinos.

So those stats might not be all that wonderful to you. To me they are just s reflection of reality.



Curious, as the last time I looked it was prior records that made the difference in sentencing, and when correct for there was hardly a disparit to be found.



Link?



Or perhaps the cry of "I'm not a racist, but..." is the modern attempt to drop PC platitudes and bullshit and deal with race relations on a factual basis and not one of polyanna pie in the sky bullshit. A reality that acknowledges not everything is the fault of whitey, nor is he the only one who might need a swift kick in the ass on a few issues. I'm all for acknowledging systemic racism. I've seen it, I know it exists. I also know that as a matter of stats blacks commit a shitload more violent crimes and at a much higher rate against whites than it is the opposite. It's not roving bands of Scandanavians that make the inner city ghettos unpassable or fathering kids out of wedlock like coked out bunny rabbits.

No, the new cry isn't, "I'm not a racists, but..." It's "I see there are problems related to race in this country, but not all of them are my fault because I'm white, and there are some serious positive aspects on my culture that I can be proud of as well as anyone else, so try getting your own **** together and looking inward for a change instead of heaping the lion's share of the blame for your misfortunes on my ****ing back just because of my skin color."

What will it take to make white folks believe that racism is still a persistent social phenomenon, albeit more subtle and concealed than in years past?

When Rodney King was beaten, the voices of denial told us it was just a few bad cops, and anyway, he was speeding and "lunging around like some animal."

When police in Virginia Beach assaulted African-American collegians during spring break a few years back, the voices of denial said "it wasn't racial, and anyway, a lot of those kids were looting."

Indeed, whenever white cops kill or assault people of color, or even other "minority" cops, it's never racial. It was an accident. Bad judgment. And anyway, it's a jungle out there. The police are under a lot of pressure.

But isn't it strange how we never hear about Black officers "accidentally" blowing away white teenagers during routine traffic stops? Are they somehow immune to the pressure which seemingly sends so many of their white colleagues over the edge?

Even when David Duke got nearly 60% of the white vote for U.S. Senate and almost 55% of the white vote for Louisiana Governor one year later, the voices of denial assured us Duke's supporters weren't racists. They were just "tired of business as usual," and wanted to "send Washington a message." That the message they had in mind might have been a bit more sinister than "gee whiz, here's a great guy who supports term limits," was entirely overlooked as a possibility.

Sometimes the denial gets downright silly.

In 1989 when a cross was burned on the lawn of a Tulane University fraternity, the very night that fraternity had issued its first-ever bid to a Black student, many white students and administrators said they didn't think the incident was racially-motivated, especially since "it was only a two-foot cross".

Four months later, when members of another fraternity burned a cross in their backyard, after nailing a Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard sign to the structure, the perpetrators actually claimed that the two pieces of wood had "just kinda' fallen into the bonfire in a cross-like position." As for the street sign? Nobody knew how that had gotten in there. Some even claimed, as proof of their innocence that they would have been forced to go to the black part of town had they wanted to steal an MLK Boulevard sign, and that, after all would have been too dangerous! No sir, no racism in these here parts.

I suppose it will take the emergence of a new Hitler, complete with a little mustache and a revised "final solution" for the darker-complexioned types before we'll finally own up to the national sickness.

President Johnson understood the need for affirmative efforts at black advancement fairly early. In 1965, he explained:


"Freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe you have been completely fair. Thus, it is not enough to open the gates of opportunity."

And recent studies also indicate that discrimination, both overt and institutional, continues to limit black achievement, irrespective of personal merit or ambition:

The Glass Ceiling Commission, established by President Bush and Senator Bob Dole, found that white men, who comprise only 43% of the nation's workforce, hold over 95% of senior management positions and 80% of tenured professorships due to an "ongoing pattern of injustice." The study found "serious barriers to [minority and female] advancement remain," including "persistent stereotyping, erroneous beliefs that no qualified women or minorities are out there, and plain old fear of change."

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In 1991, the Urban Institute sent equally qualified "testers" (some white, others black), to apply for entry-level jobs and found "widespread and pervasive discrimination" against young black males. Blacks were three times as likely to be rejected for employment as their white counterparts, and approximately one in five African American job-seekers in the study experienced some form of discrimination.

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What will it take to make white folks believe that racism is still a persistent social phenomenon, albeit more subtle and concealed than in years past?
Discrimination based on differences will ALWAYS be a part of human interaction. What will it take you to understand that there is a difference between the kind of discrimination that occurs in any day to day interaction with any person and the kind of discrimination that was practiced as a part of overall social policy? Are the blacks, hispanics, etc all not discriminatory as well? Don't black families blow up if their daughter is going to marry a white boy?

When Rodney King was beaten, the voices of denial told us it was just a few bad cops, and anyway, he was speeding and "lunging around like some animal."

I imagine you'll say the next that the black officers involved were afraid they were next if they didn't join in? Did you watch the video? King was told repeatedly to stay on the ground and didnt. He was driving erratically at ridiculous speeds thru a residential neighborhood, was obviously on drugs. He could quite easily have had a knife or other weapon. Why is it the police officers fault he refused to listen to them and presented a danger to them? A knife at close range is more dangerous than a pistol.

But isn't it strange how we never hear about Black officers "accidentally" blowing away white teenagers during routine traffic stops? Are they somehow immune to the pressure which seemingly sends so many of their white colleagues over the edge?

When do we hear about white officers "accidentally" blowing away black teenagers during routine traffic stops? Unless you call after a 45 minute car chase with the teenager doing 90 routine. Again, you just throw distortion around to try and make a point as you don't have actual evidence.

Even when David Duke got nearly 60% of the white vote for U.S. Senate and almost 55% of the white vote for Louisiana Governor one year later, the voices of denial assured us Duke's supporters weren't racists. They were just "tired of business as usual," and wanted to "send Washington a message." That the message they had in mind might have been a bit more sinister than "gee whiz, here's a great guy who supports term limits," was entirely overlooked as a possibility.

This one you've got me on :D to some extent anyhow. That was crazy that duke got that much of the vote. But again, i've never said there is no racism, it is just no longer a systematic countrywide pandemic any longer. There was as much racism there in Louisiana as there is in Chicago's black communities or Washington DC. Was, again, almost a full generation ago though, 20 years. At close to that same time, Marion Barry was arrested for using city money to buy crack and have sex with prostitutes in a hotel room, and was re-elected shortly after. Is that not just as racist that you would vote for someone with such horribly poor behavior to run your city?


Sometimes the denial gets downright silly.

and sometimes the cries of racism get even sillier.

A family in Madison with a large display of Halloween decorations in front of their home was asked by police and Mayor Woody Kerkeslager to remove a black-hooded dummy with a noose around its neck. Police received complaints from residents saying they found it offensive and it reminded them of a lynching. The homeowners maintain they have done nothing wrong, but removed the dummy under pressure, saying they feared for their safety. From The Star Ledger:

Before the figure was removed yesterday, Madison Mayor Ellwood "Woody" Kerkeslager said "the appearance and the suggestion (of racism) is there, and it's inappropriate."
...Meanwhile, the state chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People denounced the display as offensive, racist and insensitive.

At least four recent noose displays -- one each in Jena, La., and Philadelphia and two in New York City -- are drawing renewed attention to a potent symbol of racism, lynchings and the era of Jim Crow segregation.

So the racists are saving all their racism up for halloween as its the only day they can flaunt it? please, give me a break already. Again, you will find racism if you are convinced it is there, even if it isn't actually there. If you take the view that racism isn't there, when you do see it you can be sure its real.
 
Damn....go on vacation and this is still going...need to catch up..


Are we all still racists? Is "the man" still white?
 
Statements of how whites are mentally unbalanced, lacking a grip on reality, etc are. Thats the definition of racism, perhaps you need a dictionary


:lol:


ouch!
 
Discrimination based on differences will ALWAYS be a part of human interaction. What will it take you to understand that there is a difference between the kind of discrimination that occurs in any day to day interaction with any person and the kind of discrimination that was practiced as a part of overall social policy? Are the blacks, hispanics, etc all not discriminatory as well? Don't black families blow up if their daughter is going to marry a white boy?



I imagine you'll say the next that the black officers involved were afraid they were next if they didn't join in? Did you watch the video? King was told repeatedly to stay on the ground and didnt. He was driving erratically at ridiculous speeds thru a residential neighborhood, was obviously on drugs. He could quite easily have had a knife or other weapon. Why is it the police officers fault he refused to listen to them and presented a danger to them? A knife at close range is more dangerous than a pistol.



When do we hear about white officers "accidentally" blowing away black teenagers during routine traffic stops? Unless you call after a 45 minute car chase with the teenager doing 90 routine. Again, you just throw distortion around to try and make a point as you don't have actual evidence.



This one you've got me on :D to some extent anyhow. That was crazy that duke got that much of the vote. But again, i've never said there is no racism, it is just no longer a systematic countrywide pandemic any longer. There was as much racism there in Louisiana as there is in Chicago's black communities or Washington DC. Was, again, almost a full generation ago though, 20 years. At close to that same time, Marion Barry was arrested for using city money to buy crack and have sex with prostitutes in a hotel room, and was re-elected shortly after. Is that not just as racist that you would vote for someone with such horribly poor behavior to run your city?




and sometimes the cries of racism get even sillier.



So the racists are saving all their racism up for halloween as its the only day they can flaunt it? please, give me a break already. Again, you will find racism if you are convinced it is there, even if it isn't actually there. If you take the view that racism isn't there, when you do see it you can be sure its real.

For those of us in the dominant group, the notion that we may receive certain advantages generally not received by others is a jarring, sometimes maddening concept. And if we don't understand what the term means, and what those who use it mean as they deploy it, our misunderstandings can generate anger and heat, where really, none is called for.

Again,all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.

As I said previously,privilege is the flipside of discrimination. If people of color face discrimination, in housing, employment and elsewhere, then the rest of us are receiving a de facto subsidy, a privilege, an advantage in those realms of daily life. There can be no down without an up, in other words.

None of this means that white folks don't face challenges. Of course we do, and some of them (based on class, gender, sexual orientation, disability status, or other factors) are systemic and institutionalized. But on balance, we can take for granted that we will receive a leg-up on those persons of color with whom we share a nation.

And no, affirmative action doesn't change any of this.
 
One more point,it's about something called 'projection.'

When someone subconsciously realizes that a particular trait applies to them, and then attempts to locate that trait in others, so as to alleviate the stigma or self-doubt engendered by the trait in question.

It's a well-understood concept of modern psychology, and explains much: like why men who are struggling with their own sexuality are often the most outwardly homophobic. Or the way whites during slavery typified black men as rapists, even though the primary rapists were the white slaveowners themselves, taking liberties with their female property, or white men generally, raping their wives with impunity.

I got to thinking about projection recently when reading over various posts of people who felt the need to inform everyone here that people of color are "looking for a handout," and are "dependent" on government.

Such claims are making the rounds these days, especially as debate heats up about such issues as reparations for enslavement, or affirmative action. And this critique is a prime example of projection, for in truth, no people have been as dependent on others throughout history as white folks.

We depended on laws to defend slavery and segregation so as to elevate us, politically, socially and economically. We depended on the Naturalization Act of 1790, to make all European immigrants eligible for nearly automatic citizenship, with rights above all persons of color. We depended on land giveaways like the Homestead Act, and housing subsidies that were essentially white-only for many years, like FHA and VA loans. Even the GI Bill was largely for whites only, and all of these government-sponsored efforts were instrumental in creating the white middle class. But it goes deeper than that.

>From the earliest days, "whites" were dependent on the land and natural resources of the Americas, Africa, and Asia. Since Europe offered no substantial natural riches from its soil, European economic advance and expansion was entirely reliant on the taking of other people's land by force, trickery or coercion. That, my friends, is dependence.

Then these same Europeans relied on slave labor to build a new nation and to create wealth for whites; wealth that was instrumental to financing the American Revolution, as well as allowing the textile and tobacco industries to emerge as international powerhouses. From 1790 to 1860 alone, whites and the overall economy reaped the benefits of as much as $40 billion in unpaid black labor. That, my friends, is dependence.

Though apologists for black oppression enjoy pointing out that Africans often sold other Africans into slavery, this too indicates just how dependent whites have been on black people: having to pay and bribe Africans to catch their own and deliver them to us so as to fatten the profits of European elites. We couldn't even do that by ourselves.

Then whites were dependent on Native peoples to teach us farming skills, as our complete ineptitude in this realm left the earliest colonists starving to death and turning to cannibalism when the winters came in order to survive.

We were dependent on Mexicans to teach us how to extract gold from riverbeds and quartz--critical to the growth of the national economy in the mid to late 1800's--and had we not taken over half their nation in an unprovoked war, the emerging Pacific ports so vital to the modern U.S. economy would not have been ours, but Mexico' s. That, my friends, is dependence. Then we were dependent on their labor in the mid 20th century under the bracero program, through which over five million Mexicans were brought into the country for cheap agricultural work, and then sent back across the border.

And we were dependent on Asian labor to build the railroads that made transcontinental travel and commerce possible. 90% of the labor used to build the Central Pacific Railroad in the 1860's were Chinese, imported for the purpose, and exploited because the railroad bosses felt they could better control them than white workers.

In fact, all throughout U.S. labor history, whites have depended on the subordination of workers of color; by the marking of black and brown peoples as the bottom rung on the ladder--a rung below which they would not be allowed to fall. By virtue of this racialized class system whites could receive the "psychological wage" of whiteness, even if their real wages left them destitute. That too is dependence, and a kind that has marked even the poorest whites.

The plantation owners in the South were surely dependent on blacks, and for more than field labor. We relied on black women to suckle and care for our children. We relied on blacks to build the levees that kept rivers like the Mississippi from our doorstep. We relied on black girls to fan our sleeping white ladies so as to ensure their comfort. We relied on blacks to do everything from cooking, to cleaning, to making our beds, to polishing our shoes, to chopping the wood to heat our homes, to nursing us back to health when we fell ill. We prided ourselves on being (or aspiring to be) men and women of leisure, while black and brown folks did all the work. That, and a lot more, is dependence; and yet we still insist they are the lazy ones.

And northern industrial capitalism relied on black labor too, especially to break the labor militance of white ethnics by playing off one group of workers against the other. That also, is dependence.

During the civil war, the armies of the Confederacy relied on blacks to cook for the troops and to make the implements of war they would use in battle; and likewise, the Union relied on black soldiers--around 200,000 of them--to ultimately win the war. That too, is most assuredly dependence.

And white dependence on people of color continues to this day. Each year, African Americans spend over $500 billion with white-owned companies: money that goes mostly into the pockets of the white owners, white employees, white stockholders, and white communities in which they live. And yet we say black people need us?

We think they are the dependent ones, relying as we assume they do on the paltry scraps of an eviscerated welfare state? Now let's just cut the crap. Who would be hurt more: black folks if all welfare programs were shut down tomorrow, or white folks, if blacks decided they were through transferring half-a-trillion dollars each year to white people and were going to keep their money in their own communities?

Or what about the ongoing dependence of white businesses on the exploitation of black labor? Each year, according to estimates from the Urban Institute, over $120 billion in wages are lost to African Americans thanks to discrimination in the labor market. That's money that doesn't end up in the hands of the folks who earned it, but rather remains in the bank accounts of owners. That my friends, is dependence.

Our dependence on people of color even extends to our need to have them as spokespeople for our ideologies and agendas: thus, the proliferation of high-profile conservatives of color who bash their own people for us, so we don't have to do it alone. Ken Hamblin, Clarence Thomas, Larry Elder, Walter Williams, Linda Chavez: all of them, walking, talking, lawn jockeys, shining their lights for white supremacy. And oh yes, our need for them is most certainly a form of dependence.

Then, we rely on still more people of color to help further the agenda of white dominance: namely Asians, whom we proclaim to be "model minorities." "See how hard the Asians work,' whites love to say, 'why can't blacks be more like them?" Of course, we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians; or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations; or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal. Never mind all that: the model minority myth has a power all its own, and is one more way in which whites have become dependent on those who are not.
 
Damn Luther, those are some good stats as to how fuked up the U.S. is.

How can we warn the millions of people who are ready to risk their lives to come here that they are about to make the biggest mistake of their life and should stay where they are?

I'm serious Luther, if we can get your message out, think of how many lives we could save?
 
One more point,it's about something called 'projection.'

When someone subconsciously realizes that a particular trait applies to them, and then attempts to locate that trait in others, so as to alleviate the stigma or self-doubt engendered by the trait in question.

Do you not realize how well this applies to yourself?
 
One more point,it's about something called 'projection.'

When someone subconsciously realizes that a particular trait applies to them, and then attempts to locate that trait in others, so as to alleviate the stigma or self-doubt engendered by the trait in question.

It's a well-understood concept of modern psychology, and explains much: like why men who are struggling with their own sexuality are often the most outwardly homophobic. Or the way whites during slavery typified black men as rapists, even though the primary rapists were the white slaveowners themselves, taking liberties with their female property, or white men generally, raping their wives with impunity.

I got to thinking about projection recently when reading over various posts of people who felt the need to inform everyone here that people of color are "looking for a handout," and are "dependent" on government.

Such claims are making the rounds these days, especially as debate heats up about such issues as reparations for enslavement, or affirmative action. And this critique is a prime example of projection, for in truth, no people have been as dependent on others throughout history as white folks.

We depended on laws to defend slavery and segregation so as to elevate us, politically, socially and economically. We depended on the Naturalization Act of 1790, to make all European immigrants eligible for nearly automatic citizenship, with rights above all persons of color. We depended on land giveaways like the Homestead Act, and housing subsidies that were essentially white-only for many years, like FHA and VA loans. Even the GI Bill was largely for whites only, and all of these government-sponsored efforts were instrumental in creating the white middle class. But it goes deeper than that.

>From the earliest days, "whites" were dependent on the land and natural resources of the Americas, Africa, and Asia. Since Europe offered no substantial natural riches from its soil, European economic advance and expansion was entirely reliant on the taking of other people's land by force, trickery or coercion. That, my friends, is dependence.

Then these same Europeans relied on slave labor to build a new nation and to create wealth for whites; wealth that was instrumental to financing the American Revolution, as well as allowing the textile and tobacco industries to emerge as international powerhouses. From 1790 to 1860 alone, whites and the overall economy reaped the benefits of as much as $40 billion in unpaid black labor. That, my friends, is dependence.

Though apologists for black oppression enjoy pointing out that Africans often sold other Africans into slavery, this too indicates just how dependent whites have been on black people: having to pay and bribe Africans to catch their own and deliver them to us so as to fatten the profits of European elites. We couldn't even do that by ourselves.

Then whites were dependent on Native peoples to teach us farming skills, as our complete ineptitude in this realm left the earliest colonists starving to death and turning to cannibalism when the winters came in order to survive.

We were dependent on Mexicans to teach us how to extract gold from riverbeds and quartz--critical to the growth of the national economy in the mid to late 1800's--and had we not taken over half their nation in an unprovoked war, the emerging Pacific ports so vital to the modern U.S. economy would not have been ours, but Mexico' s. That, my friends, is dependence. Then we were dependent on their labor in the mid 20th century under the bracero program, through which over five million Mexicans were brought into the country for cheap agricultural work, and then sent back across the border.

And we were dependent on Asian labor to build the railroads that made transcontinental travel and commerce possible. 90% of the labor used to build the Central Pacific Railroad in the 1860's were Chinese, imported for the purpose, and exploited because the railroad bosses felt they could better control them than white workers.

In fact, all throughout U.S. labor history, whites have depended on the subordination of workers of color; by the marking of black and brown peoples as the bottom rung on the ladder--a rung below which they would not be allowed to fall. By virtue of this racialized class system whites could receive the "psychological wage" of whiteness, even if their real wages left them destitute. That too is dependence, and a kind that has marked even the poorest whites.

The plantation owners in the South were surely dependent on blacks, and for more than field labor. We relied on black women to suckle and care for our children. We relied on blacks to build the levees that kept rivers like the Mississippi from our doorstep. We relied on black girls to fan our sleeping white ladies so as to ensure their comfort. We relied on blacks to do everything from cooking, to cleaning, to making our beds, to polishing our shoes, to chopping the wood to heat our homes, to nursing us back to health when we fell ill. We prided ourselves on being (or aspiring to be) men and women of leisure, while black and brown folks did all the work. That, and a lot more, is dependence; and yet we still insist they are the lazy ones.

And northern industrial capitalism relied on black labor too, especially to break the labor militance of white ethnics by playing off one group of workers against the other. That also, is dependence.

During the civil war, the armies of the Confederacy relied on blacks to cook for the troops and to make the implements of war they would use in battle; and likewise, the Union relied on black soldiers--around 200,000 of them--to ultimately win the war. That too, is most assuredly dependence.

And white dependence on people of color continues to this day. Each year, African Americans spend over $500 billion with white-owned companies: money that goes mostly into the pockets of the white owners, white employees, white stockholders, and white communities in which they live. And yet we say black people need us?

We think they are the dependent ones, relying as we assume they do on the paltry scraps of an eviscerated welfare state? Now let's just cut the crap. Who would be hurt more: black folks if all welfare programs were shut down tomorrow, or white folks, if blacks decided they were through transferring half-a-trillion dollars each year to white people and were going to keep their money in their own communities?

Or what about the ongoing dependence of white businesses on the exploitation of black labor? Each year, according to estimates from the Urban Institute, over $120 billion in wages are lost to African Americans thanks to discrimination in the labor market. That's money that doesn't end up in the hands of the folks who earned it, but rather remains in the bank accounts of owners. That my friends, is dependence.

Our dependence on people of color even extends to our need to have them as spokespeople for our ideologies and agendas: thus, the proliferation of high-profile conservatives of color who bash their own people for us, so we don't have to do it alone. Ken Hamblin, Clarence Thomas, Larry Elder, Walter Williams, Linda Chavez: all of them, walking, talking, lawn jockeys, shining their lights for white supremacy. And oh yes, our need for them is most certainly a form of dependence.

Then, we rely on still more people of color to help further the agenda of white dominance: namely Asians, whom we proclaim to be "model minorities." "See how hard the Asians work,' whites love to say, 'why can't blacks be more like them?" Of course, we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians; or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations; or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal. Never mind all that: the model minority myth has a power all its own, and is one more way in which whites have become dependent on those who are not.

Hey Luther, is there like an application process to get in on this white conspiracy? It sounds great, other people do the work and I get the money! I'm sure there are plenty of poor whites out there that would love to get in on this as well.

Is the website still, Invalid Link Removed ?
 
Oh yes,the election of a half black person to the Presidency magically erases something that is an integral part of the American culture.

I guess you're missing the flipside of that statement. How integral is that part of American culture if a half-black person is elected president?
 
Damn Luther, those are some good stats as to how fuked up the U.S. is.

How can we warn the millions of people who are ready to risk their lives to come here that they are about to make the biggest mistake of their life and should stay where they are?

I'm serious Luther, if we can get your message out, think of how many lives we could save?

You must have been asleep for a few years.

Google "The Measure of America" study.

The three social scientists who prepared the study constructed an American Human Development Index which includes both median income figures and data relating to health, life expectancy and “access to knowledge” (school enrollment and the proportion of the population with college and professional degrees.) The result is a broader picture of social conditions than would be provided by a purely economic analysis.

In terms of the human development index, the United States has fallen from second place in 1990 (behind Canada) to 12th place. This decline continued through both the Clinton and Bush administrations, with the US falling to sixth in 1995, ninth in 2000, and 12th in 2005.

In certain respects, the decline is even worse. The US is 34th in infant mortality—with a level comparable to Croatia, Estonia, Poland and Cuba. US school children perform significantly below their counterparts in countries like Canada, France, Germany and Japan, and 14 percent of the population, some 40 million people, lack basic literacy and number skills.

Of the world’s 30 richest nations, which comprise the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the United States has the highest proportion of children living in poverty, 15 percent, and the most people in prison, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the whole population. With five percent of the world’s population, the US has 24 percent of the world’s prisoners.

The report notes: “Social mobility is now less fluid in the United States than in other affluent nations. Indeed, a poor child born in Germany, France, Canada or one of the Nordic countries has a better chance to join the middle class in adulthood than an American child born into similar circumstances.”

In overall life expectancy, the United States ranks an astonishing 42nd, behind not only Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and all the countries of Western Europe, but also Israel, Greece, Singapore, Costa Rica and South Korea. The US spends twice as much money per capita on health care as any of these countries, but its citizens live shorter lives.

Two principal contributing factors were identified in the report—the epidemic of obesity, a disease primarily of poverty and miseducation, and the lack of health insurance for 47 million Americans. The report also noted that homicide and suicide are among the 15 leading causes of death in America.

The health crisis in the United States was underscored by a second report, issued Thursday by the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit research group based in New York. This study found that 75 million people are either uninsured or under-insured, one quarter of the population. Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund, focused on the rising cost and diminishing availability of health care. “The central finding is that access has deteriorated,” she said.

A major factor is the immense administrative costs incurred by private insurance companies which spend billions of dollars to avoid paying claims. Much insurance company profit gouging is masked as “administrative” expenses as well. Administrative costs take 7.5 percent of US health care spending, compared to 5 percent in Germany and Switzerland, which also have private health insurers, and 1 percent or less in countries like Canada and Britain that have government-run insurance systems.

Assessing 37 separate healthcare indices, the Commonwealth study found that even in those areas where there was some improvement in absolute terms, other countries had improved by a far greater amount, pushing the US further down the table. For example, the US reduced the number of preventable deaths for people under 75 from 115 to 110 per 100,000 over the past five years. However, other countries, led by France, Japan and Australia, did much better. The US is now last among developed countries in this measure, having just slipped below Ireland and Portugal.
 
I guess you're missing the flipside of that statement. How integral is that part of American culture if a half-black person is elected president?

It does indicate a shift,of course,but the point is it does not erase the institutional practice of racism in the US.
 
Hey Luther, is there like an application process to get in on this white conspiracy? It sounds great, other people do the work and I get the money! I'm sure there are plenty of poor whites out there that would love to get in on this as well.

Is the website still, Invalid Link Removed ?

Again,all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.

As I said previously,privilege is the flipside of discrimination. If people of color face discrimination, in housing, employment and elsewhere, then the rest of us are receiving a de facto subsidy, a privilege, an advantage in those realms of daily life. There can be no down without an up, in other words.

None of this means that white folks don't face challenges. Of course we do, and some of them (based on class, gender, sexual orientation, disability status, or other factors) are systemic and institutionalized. But on balance, we can take for granted that we will receive a leg-up on those persons of color with whom we share a nation.

And no, affirmative action doesn't change any of this.
 
Again,all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.

As I said previously,privilege is the flipside of discrimination. If people of color face discrimination, in housing, employment and elsewhere, then the rest of us are receiving a de facto subsidy, a privilege, an advantage in those realms of daily life. There can be no down without an up, in other words.

None of this means that white folks don't face challenges. Of course we do, and some of them (based on class, gender, sexual orientation, disability status, or other factors) are systemic and institutionalized. But on balance, we can take for granted that we will receive a leg-up on those persons of color with whom we share a nation.

And no, affirmative action doesn't change any of this.

I guess this brings me back to the same question as before.....

We have Civil Rights laws in place. We have affirmative action and preferential treatment for minorities in place. We've bussed kids tens of thousands of miles a year to get them a fair education. We spend the entire month of February learning about how some guy found hundreds of uses for the peanut. We have the United States Attorney General calling us A Nation of Cowards when it comes to race.

Other than "having a dialogue" which I think is a worn out diatribe....we're not going to talk our way out of anything. What new legislation would you propose to solve this problem? It seems to me that this problem has been over-legislated and racial polarization has increased since the 1960s when the legislating began. Isn't it possible that the right solution is just to wait it out and let the problem solve itself?
 
As I said previously,privilege is the flipside of discrimination. If people of color face discrimination, in housing, employment and elsewhere, then the rest of us are receiving a de facto subsidy, a privilege, an advantage in those realms of daily life. There can be no down without an up, in other words.

If they face racial discrimination. IF. So far your evidence of that is that statistically their distribution in many things doesn't match their population level. Whether its on college degrees or teen births, income levels or fathers abandoning their children. I defy you to find any racial group in any country where the statistical data for those same 4 things works out to matching their percentage of the population (where that statistical group makes up no more than 65% of population)
 
If they face racial discrimination. IF. So far your evidence of that is that statistically their distribution in many things doesn't match their population level. Whether its on college degrees or teen births, income levels or fathers abandoning their children. I defy you to find any racial group in any country where the statistical data for those same 4 things works out to matching their percentage of the population (where that statistical group makes up no more than 65% of population)



You are saying that minorities face discrimmination in most countries? And.....
Are we headed towards the 'everybody does it so it's ok' line of reasoning?



By the way,there is no if,I was explaining a point not stating that there is any uncertainty about those areas,talk about taking something out of context!


Racial Discrimination in Urban Housing Markets: John F. Kain, John M. Quigley (p. 56 - 91)
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Racial Discrimination and Home Ownership: John F. Kain, John M. Quigley (p. 137 - 153) Invalid Link Removed

Labor Market Discrimination against Hispanic and Black Men
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Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on
Black Americans from Colonial Times to the Present
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You are saying that minorities face discrimmination in most countries? And.....
Are we headed towards the 'everybody does it so it's ok' line of reasoning?

Note I said majorities as well up to 65%, any population group. The fact (and its the only fact in this thread) is that statistical groupings vary. Attempting to place a reason for that variance is a human trait, but that doesn't ensure the accuracy. Again, your projection of your own racism is what makes those statistics valuable to you.

By the way,there is no if,I was explaining a point not stating that there is any uncertainty about those areas,talk about taking something out of context!


Racial Discrimination in Urban Housing Markets: John F. Kain, John M. Quigley (p. 56 - 91)
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Racial Discrimination and Home Ownership: John F. Kain, John M. Quigley (p. 137 - 153) Invalid Link Removed

Labor Market Discrimination against Hispanic and Black Men
Invalid Link Removed

Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on
Black Americans from Colonial Times to the Present
Invalid Link Removed

1975, 1975, 1983. Do you have something perhaps this century? Or at least something from after you were born?

Using the Labor Market Discrimination against Hispanic and Black Men, in 1975 white non-hispanic wage earners earned 5.97/hr, puerto ricans 4.52, cubans, 5.33, blacks 4.65. So apparently even though most people can't tell them apart by looking or speaking to them, somehow there was less discrimination against cubans than puerto ricans? No, it just goes to show that statistical groupings fall into varying patterns based on many factors, much of which are not obvious. Education levels, typical career choices, language spoken, number of children in household, religion, etc all can play factors, and are not skin color based.
 
I guess this brings me back to the same question as before.....

We have Civil Rights laws in place. We have affirmative action and preferential treatment for minorities in place. We've bussed kids tens of thousands of miles a year to get them a fair education. We spend the entire month of February learning about how some guy found hundreds of uses for the peanut.

Are we to believe that standard American history has been unifying? The kind of history that largely ignores the contributions and struggles of persons of color in the U.S.? The history that too often paints an image of Africa suggesting there were no signs of civilization there before whites arrived, and thus that black history doesn't begin until slavery? The kind of history that relegates black folks to one month out of the year, and even then only teaches about a few prominent figures: Dr, King, Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and perhaps Rosa Parks?

How unifying has it been for black folks to read about their history as if it were only a compendium of victimization narratives? To learn nothing of early African cultures and the ways in which many of their existing traditions stem from those longstanding folkways? To be given the impression that Africa is a vast jungle of uncivilized brutes, as contrasted with the ostensibly superior European nation-states that colonized and dominated it for so long?

Whites throw the unity concept around, absent any real understanding of what it means.

So after 9/11, for example, millions of whites (and pretty much only whites) slapped bumper stickers on their cars that read "United We Stand." The lack of such automotive adornment on the vehicles of persons of color owes less to differences in patriotism per se, or shock and outrage over the events of that day, than it does to a recognition on the part of such persons that disunity is more common in this nation than unity, and a terrorist attack didn't change that.

Wide racial gaps in income, wealth, and housing, along with persistent bias in the justice system makes a mockery out of white pronouncements of unity, and renders utterly specious the notion that teaching black history (as opposed to merely living the white version) is what divides us.



Other than "having a dialogue" which I think is a worn out diatribe....we're not going to talk our way out of anything. What new legislation would you propose to solve this problem? It seems to me that this problem has been over-legislated and racial polarization has increased since the 1960s when the legislating began. Isn't it possible that the right solution is just to wait it out and let the problem solve itself?

Where has this type of problem ever "solved itself"? In South Africa? In Israel?
 
Note I said majorities as well up to 65%, any population group. The fact (and its the only fact in this thread) is that statistical groupings vary. Attempting to place a reason for that variance is a human trait, but that doesn't ensure the accuracy. Again, your projection of your own racism is what makes those statistics valuable to you.

Your dogmatic insistence on ignoring anything that does not fit into your worldview is what makes you try to render them irrelevant at any cost.



1975, 1975, 1983. Do you have something perhaps this century? Or at least something from after you were born?

Again,another dodge tactic,try to claim that the studies are too old and then when new ones are produced you say "your projection of your own racism is what makes those statistics valuable to you". I think we are on a merry-go-round here.

Using the Labor Market Discrimination against Hispanic and Black Men, in 1975 white non-hispanic wage earners earned 5.97/hr, puerto ricans 4.52, cubans, 5.33, blacks 4.65. So apparently even though most people can't tell them apart by looking or speaking to them, somehow there was less discrimination against cubans than puerto ricans? No, it just goes to show that statistical groupings fall into varying patterns based on many factors, much of which are not obvious. Education levels, typical career choices, language spoken, number of children in household, religion, etc all can play factors, and are not skin color based.

According to you,not the actual people who conducted the research.
 
To be given the impression that Africa is a vast jungle of uncivilized brutes, as contrasted with the ostensibly superior European nation-states that colonized and dominated it for so long?

Its not? Have you not watched much news about africa? More time/effort/energy is spent on tribal groups trying to exterminate other tribal groups SOLELY because they are a different tribal group than is spent trying to create a clean water supply.

And perhaps you are using a different definition of unity than I am

u·ni·ty (yn-t)
n. pl. u·ni·ties
1. The state or quality of being one; singleness.
2. The state or quality of being in accord; harmony.
3.
a. The combination or arrangement of parts into a whole; unification.
b. A combination or union thus formed.

I don't see where "celebration of our differences" is in there, nor the expectation to be treated as part of the unity when you purposefully try and keep yourself separate from it. Its why Gay Pride marches don't particularly help aid in gay unity with the heterosexual community.
 
You guys should really lighten up and let this go if you can't just face it and deal with it realistically. It is what it is, no need to make it more or less. That's the problem with racism, it perpetuates itself in a cyclic fashion. Every race has been enslaved at some point to demonstrate racism's equal opportunity oppression agenda. How ironic that the fools who serve it are not as equal opportunity, and they become the primary victims of it once it cycles back around! You go all the way right, so he goes all the way left to maintain the balance, and now nobody is standing in the center anymore where the truth is. Come on guys.

If the president is half white as much as he's half black, why does that default to "we have a black president"? Why is his 50% whiteness automatically discounted and intentionally dismissed! Kinda blows the lid off the game don't it, and makes the payoff obvious IMO.

There are none more racists than the childish liberals out there playing this 'race card', 'it's not fair' game. Hypocrites! It's not reality and not even a sincere protest on their part once you can expose it as a maneuver, so don't buy it and feel sorry for them. Makes me sad to be a liberal these days.
 
Its not? Have you not watched much news about africa? More time/effort/energy is spent on tribal groups trying to exterminate other tribal groups SOLELY because they are a different tribal group than is spent trying to create a clean water supply.

The News? You mean the fair and balanced channel or another one?

By the way,most of those countries gained their independnce in the last 50 years and some as recent as a few years ago,how did the US look a few years after independence? The picture ofcivility and peace?

Country Independence date
Eritrea May 24, 1993
Namibia March 21, 1990
Zimbabwe April 18, 1980
Djibouti June 27, 1977
Angola November 11, 1975
Mozambique June 25, 1975
Botswana September 30, 1966
Sudan January 1, 1956
Ghana March 6, 1957
Kenya December 12, 1963



I don't see where "celebration of our differences" is in there, nor the expectation to be treated as part of the unity when you purposefully try and keep yourself separate from it. Its why Gay Pride marches don't particularly help aid in gay unity with the heterosexual community.

You missed the point of my post,again. Go back and read the paragraph quoted in context with the rest of it and see if you can grasp what I'm trying to say,paraphrase next time if need be.
 
I can see what you are trying to say, but if the black population is actively avoiding unity by purposefully holding their differences as critical - "its a black thing, you wouldn't understand" - then it is harder for them to be a part of any unity outside of a black unity.
 
What will it take to make white folks believe that racism is still a persistent social phenomenon, albeit more subtle and concealed than in years past?

When folks like you learn to read. I specifically wrote:

CDB said:
I'm all for acknowledging systemic racism. I've seen it, I know it exists.

So, you are either illiterate or a troll. Either way this is my last response to a person who can't read or purposefully doesn't read.

When Rodney King was beaten, the voices of denial told us it was just a few bad cops, and anyway, he was speeding and "lunging around like some animal."

He was. And they were bad cops. And there are a lot more bad cops out there. And a lot of them give whites just as much **** as blacks. I've been pulled over plenty of times for no good reason, not issued a ticket, and apparently just so some blue boy on a power trip could harrass me. And I'm whiter than sticky rice.

When police in Virginia Beach assaulted African-American collegians during spring break a few years back, the voices of denial said "it wasn't racial, and anyway, a lot of those kids were looting."

Not familiar with the incident.

Indeed, whenever white cops kill or assault people of color, or even other "minority" cops, it's never racial. It was an accident. Bad judgment. And anyway, it's a jungle out there. The police are under a lot of pressure.

Incorrect. It's not always racial. However that doesn't stop many people from assuming a racial component to every incident where a black is the victim. However I could just as well throw the hate crime stats back at you. No one was screaming racism during the Witchita horror or similar outrages. No one was screaming racism, at least not black on white racism, when foreign reporters covering Katrina, not indoctrinated into the US standards of what shouldn't be said, reported blacks ganging up on, assaulting, raping, murdering, stealing property, etc., etc., etc. Much if not all conveniently left out of US papers, or when reported, no race assigned.

But isn't it strange how we never hear about Black officers "accidentally" blowing away white teenagers during routine traffic stops? Are they somehow immune to the pressure which seemingly sends so many of their white colleagues over the edge?

Check the stats. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And please, show me where a white officer just pulls over a black guy and shoots him without some serious **** going down first, like a high speed chase.

Even when David Duke got nearly 60% of the white vote for U.S. Senate and almost 55% of the white vote for Louisiana Governor one year later, the voices of denial assured us Duke's supporters weren't racists. They were just "tired of business as usual," and wanted to "send Washington a message." That the message they had in mind might have been a bit more sinister than "gee whiz, here's a great guy who supports term limits," was entirely overlooked as a possibility.

And were you to sort through the blacks in elected office you'll likely find just as many with extremist pasts.

The Glass Ceiling Commission, established by President Bush and Senator Bob Dole, found that white men, who comprise only 43% of the nation's workforce, hold over 95% of senior management positions and 80% of tenured professorships due to an "ongoing pattern of injustice." The study found "serious barriers to [minority and female] advancement remain," including "persistent stereotyping, erroneous beliefs that no qualified women or minorities are out there, and plain old fear of change."

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Since no one is arguing, to my knowledge, that racism doesn't exist, this is pretty irrelevant. What you are doing is taking anyone who questions the PC party line position on the scope, extent, and relevance of racism to modern society as a denier of all racism.

In 1991, the Urban Institute sent equally qualified "testers" (some white, others black), to apply for entry-level jobs and found "widespread and pervasive discrimination" against young black males. Blacks were three times as likely to be rejected for employment as their white counterparts, and approximately one in five African American job-seekers in the study experienced some form of discrimination.

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Not surprising to me. There's a hell of a lot more to an interview than qualifications. Also, I'd be interested in knowing how they judged qualification in this study, because equal time in similar jobs doesn't cut it. For entry level positions that I hire for there are some people who've been at that level for years and never taken the slightest interest in such things as: what systems they were working on; the relevance of the data they were dealing with; who their customer base was; by what metrics they were being judged in terms of productivity, etc., etc., etc. You show me someone with two years experience in data entry who knows all that vs someone with ten years who doesn't, I'm hiring the newbie because they've demonstrated the desire to learn and advance, not sit on their ass with blinders on.

So, sending two people with supposedly 'equal' qualifications in for an interview leaves a whole shitload of variables, racism included, uncontrolled for, making the assumption that the rejections were race based premature to say the least.

Be that as it may, your refusal to be able to see any nuance on this issue is proof that you're either a troll or a certified brainwashed PC product of the modern education system, which incidentally offers 'courses' on how evil white males are and how blacks use their hair styles as a form of rebellion. And, in light of the current economic crisis, I'm so happy we have so many graduates these days with such useful degrees in subjects such as Chicano Studies, Afro American Psychology, Post Modern Minority Literature, etc., etc., etc. Makes me feel real secure about this country's future.
 
Check the stats. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And please, show me where a white officer just pulls over a black guy and shoots him without some serious **** going down first, like a high speed chase.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHjhtYZpX0"]YouTube - POLICE FATALLY SHOOT UNARMED MAN - Laying Face Down and Shot in The Back! CAUGHT ON VIDEO![/ame]
 
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Even the attorney disbelieves it was racially motivated, and says so in that video.

[edit] The incident

[edit] Background
Oscar Grant had been celebrating New Year's Eve with his friends in San Francisco on the Embarcadero and was returning to the East Bay in the lead car of a Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) train bound for Fruitvale.[2][11] BART offered extended service and a special "Flash Pass" for the New Year's Eve holiday.[4][12] At approximately 2:00 AM PST, BART Police responded to reports that about twenty people were involved in the equivalent of a "barroom fight" on an incoming train from the West Oakland BART Station and the participants were "hammered and stoned."[2][3][13]

Officers removed Grant and several other men suspected of fighting from the train and detained them on the platform. Grant and another man ran back onto the train after being detained, but Grant voluntarily returned to the platform when officer Tony Pirone grabbed the other man and dragged him from the train.[2] Pirone handcuffed Grant's friend, angering other riders.[2] Pirone then lined up Grant and two other men against the wall.[2][14] According to Mehserle's motion for bail, Pirone confirmed with the train operator that the men detained were involved in the fight.[8] When five other officers, including Johannes Mehserle, arrived at the Fruitvale station, they found the situation chaotic.[2][15] BART police had been on edge before the shooting because two guns had been recovered in separate incidents along the rail line over the previous hour.[16] Immediately before he arrived at Fruitvale, Mehserle was involved in an incident at the West Oakland station where a teenage boy with a semi-automatic pistol had fled from police and jumped off the station platform, breaking several bones.[2]

A cell-phone video broadcast on KTVU on January 23 showed what appeared to be Pirone rushing towards Grant and punching him in the face two minutes before he was shot.[2][14][17] Grant's family alleges, in their civil claim against BART, that a "Latino officer" threw Grant against a wall and kneed him in the face.[18] Pirone's attorney stated that Grant provoked Pirone by trying to knee the officer in the groin and by hitting a female officer's hand;[19][20] Burris disputes Pirone's account and claims that Grant and his friends were "peaceful" when the train stopped.[20] Grant then raised his hands while seated against the platform wall.[21]


[edit] Fatally shot
While dozens of people shouted and cursed at officers from the stopped train, Mehserle and Pirone positioned Grant face-down. According to Pirone, Grant was disobeying instructions and cursing at officers.[3] Witnesses stated Grant pleaded with BART police not to shock him with a Taser.[9] Pirone then kneeled on Grant's neck and told him that he was under arrest for resisting an officer.[3][14]

Mehserle's motion for bail, citing the police investigation, stated:

Pirone said he told Grant "Stop resisting, you're under arrest, put your hands behind your back." At that time Pirone said he heard Mehserle say, "Put your hands behind your back, stop resisting, stop resisting, put your hands behind your back." Then Mehserle said, "I'm going to taze him, I'm going to taze him. I can't get his arms. He won't give me his arms. His hands are going for his waistband." Then Mehserle popped up and said, "Tony, Tony, get away, back up, back up."
Pirone did not know if Grant was armed. Mehserle had fear in his voice. Pirone had never heard Mehserle's voice with that tone. Mehserle sounded afraid.[8]
The motion also states that the man sitting next to Grant also told police he heard Mehserle say "I'm going to taze him."[8]

Mehserle then stood up, unholstered his gun, a SIG P226,[3] and fired a shot into Grant's back.[21] Immediately after the shooting, Mehserle appeared surprised and raised his hands to his face; according to Michael Rains, Mehserle's criminal defense attorney, several eyewitnesses described Mehserle as looking stunned.[3][22]

The .40 caliber bullet from Mehserle's semi-automatic handgun entered Grant's back, exited through his front side and ricocheted off the concrete platform, puncturing Grant's lung.[22][23] According to one witness, Grant yelled, "You shot me! I got a four-year-old daughter!"[24] Grant died seven hours later at Highland Hospital.[15]

The police officer stated that he thought he drew his taser, and drawing the pistol was a mistake.
 
There is neither a way to explain nor justify that shooting.

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a police officer accidentally shoots someone when he thought he had drawn his tazer. A tragedy for sure, regardless of anyones skin color. And although perhaps in this video the attorney isn't playing the race card, it is being treated as though it was racially motivated by the neighborhood.
 
Definitely not justifiable, but also no evidence it was racial.

For me, the motivation is completely irrelevant. It should not have happened in the first place.

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For me, the motivation is completely irrelevant. It should not have happened in the first place.

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No argument there, but without the motivation portion, its irrelevant to a discussion on racism. Or if anything again it proves my point that if you look at events through racism colored glasses you see racism everywhere, because you view any event that is negative towards a minority as racism. And racism is

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
 
No argument there, but without the motivation portion, its irrelevant to a discussion on racism. Or if anything again it proves my point that if you look at events through racism colored glasses you see racism everywhere, because you view any event that is negative towards a minority as racism. And racism is

I will not be drawn into this type of discussion. I have made my point.

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That's a great point. If you look for racism, you WILL find it because it exists everywhere. If you don't look at the world "through racism-colored glasses" all you see are random acts that are "unfortunate" or "tragic."
 
That's a great point. If you look for racism, you WILL find it because it exists everywhere. If you don't look at the world "through racism-colored glasses" all you see are random acts that are "unfortunate" or "tragic."

Without knowing the motivation of the individual who did it, then that is all you have is random acts. Again, please read the definition of racism. Its about motivation, not statistics. Or take me up on the offer I made to luther -

If they face racial discrimination. IF. So far your evidence of that is that statistically their distribution in many things doesn't match their population level. Whether its on college degrees or teen births, income levels or fathers abandoning their children. I defy you to find any racial group in any country where the statistical data for those same 4 things works out to matching their percentage of the population (where that statistical group makes up no more than 65% of population)

Find me any group that its true of, where the statistical % of the group match their % of the whole.
 
Easy, I'm not going to get into a statistical pissing contest with you or anyone else. You can deny its existence til the cows come home but that belies the point that not only does it exist but it always has and always will. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it's a motherfucking duck. Nothing you can say will ever change that. How many states have had investigations into racial profiling? Why do you think that is? Every cry of racism cannot be swept under the carpet as whining by minorities. At any rate, there is nothing to be learned here. Minds are already made up so I'll let you all have at it.
 
That's a great point. If you look for racism, you WILL find it because it exists everywhere. If you don't look at the world "through racism-colored glasses" all you see are random acts that are "unfortunate" or "tragic."

Again i'll use the same example as earlier too. I'm at a red light, the light turns green, the car ahead of me doesn't move. I beep the horn, then start yelling out the window "move already you stupid bastard". If the person in the car is a minority, and views the world thru racism colored glasses (and views me as white) then suddenly they are a victim of racism yet again. Regardless of the fact that i did it without knowing the race of the person in the car, and would scream the same damn thing regardless of what race they were if I did know.
 
Well that's a broad generalization and no one in their right mind would claim racism. I don't think that's a good example.
 
Well that's a broad generalization and no one in their right mind would claim racism. I don't think that's a good example.

Its a part of seeing racism everywhere. You would say its not a good example, but thats just because in the limited space of this conversation that seems logical. But on average, most people aren't logical, and take the easiest explanation for things. And if you are the person who sees racism everywhere, then the easiest explanation is racism.
 
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