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This was a rebuttal response to my previous post.

Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, cationic ampiphylic drugs are well known for their ability to inhibit phospholipase A2. Ketotifen is a cationic ampiphylic drug, so is diphenhydramine (Benadryl). Ketotifen does so much more than diphenhydramine though and there's 100s of studies to back it up.

This theory was started by Anthony Roberts (a.ka. Hooker) and has since spread all over the chemical sites and forums. In fact, here is one of HIS posts:


Periactim is a prescription-anti-histimine. It used to be sold as an appetite stimulator by some sources. It has the additional benefit of decreasing beta-receptor action (in laymens terms, upregulating them). It also makes you really tired.

As we all know, Ketotifen also decreases beta-receptor action, and is an anti-histimine (which makes me tired also).

I'm working on of a pet theory of mine that many anti-histimine's will decrease beta-receptor action...Benadryl (diphenhydramine hydrochloride) has all of the same side effects of Periactim and Ketotifen(makes me drowsy, hungry, and is an anti-histimine), so I'm theorizing that it effects the beta-receptors in the same way as Periactim and Ketotifen (which are both anti-histimines), but Benadryl is over the counter. To test my theory, I took 2 Benadryl tabs (100mgs total) every night and recorded how stimulated my clen made me feel (an imperfect indication of beta-agonist/antagonist activity). If I'm right, I felt my clen hitting me progressively "harder" (stimulating effect-wise) every day for the next couple of weeks, similar to when I started taking Ketotifen with my clen. But maybe the Benadryl just made me drowsy in the mornings when I awoke, and the clen "felt" like it was hitting me harder ...but was there a real decrease in Beta-2 activity? I think the Benadryl worked, but....

Does anyone have any input on this? Like...do you think I'm right or that this is feasable? Does anyone have Thoughts on whether Benadryl will work to upgrade my receptors, as those other 2 anti-histimine's do?

Comments, Please?

The implications of this are that everyone could stop buying Periactim or Ketotifen (to go with their clen) from mail order pharmacies and just go to the local Walgreens or CVS...I think everyone would rather be able to do that than order via mail and pay prescription-type prices.

Comments?!?! Do you think I'm onto somethingHuh
Dammit, I'd love to have a study showing Benadryl reduces Beta-2 activity! Oh well...can't have everything, I suppose...

Will it work? Yes, probably and not very well. It's like eating apples to get your vitamin C.
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Irish Cannon said:
So is it supposed to be BETTER than Reset AD?...It would probably be cheaper just to get the Reset, no?

Reset is so much more natural...I'd much rather take that than Benadryl.
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Well, I posted the rebuttal to that post afterward, which I'm sure you'll catch in a minute.

The whole Benadryl thing is still up in the air and ambiguous to me. "In theory" IF Benadryl does what it does, then it means that Benadryl is a micro fix specific to beta receptors, whereas, Reset-AD is a macro fix, for stim tolerance in general, via caffeine and what nots, from what I've gathered, but again, I'm on the fence because I haven't read anything defining yet.
 
Hahaa, such bright lights shining in here.. :lol:

My take on CLA Sam - Irish has the right idea; however, I feel this is a highly overrrated product. Helpful if BF and caloric levels are low, but takes long duration to even help in that instance. There is something to correcting the lipid profiles tho..
You can do better things with your money imo.
Fish oil is cheaper & more beneficial - you should be taking a minimum 6g daily; with your carbs lowered, you could really see some benefits in the 15g/day+ range imo. This should be where 1/3 to 1/4 of your daily fat intake comes from.
 
snagency said:
Hahaa, such bright lights shining in here.. :lol:

My take on CLA Sam - Irish has the right idea; however, I feel this is a highly overrrated product. Helpful if BF and caloric levels are low, but takes long duration to even help in that instance. There is something to correcting the lipid profiles tho..
You can do better things with your money imo.
Fish oil is cheaper & more beneficial - you should be taking a minimum 6g daily; with your carbs lowered, you could really see some benefits in the 15g/day+ range imo. This should be where 1/3 to 1/4 of your daily fat intake comes from.
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i like this. im glad NP fish oil is like 27 bucks for a thousand. good info snag.
 
snagency said:
Hahaa, such bright lights shining in here.. :lol:

My take on CLA Sam - Irish has the right idea; however, I feel this is a highly overrrated product. Helpful if BF and caloric levels are low, but takes long duration to even help in that instance. There is something to correcting the lipid profiles tho..
You can do better things with your money imo.
Fish oil is cheaper & more beneficial - you should be taking a minimum 6g daily; with your carbs lowered, you could really see some benefits in the 15g/day+ range imo. This should be where 1/3 to 1/4 of your daily fat intake comes from.
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Thanks Snag. I've been neglecting my Fish Oils lately, I'll definitely get that wheel back roll'n
 
snagency said:
...
Fish oil is cheaper & more beneficial - you should be taking a minimum 6g daily; with your carbs lowered, you could really see some benefits in the 15g/day+ range imo. This should be where 1/3 to 1/4 of your daily fat intake comes from.
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When your cutting with a low carb diet? Say your cutting on 2000cals/day at a 40%/60% (p/f) split. That would be roughly 33 grams of fish oil at a 1/4th of your diet. Quite a bit.

rolandajoint said:
i like this. im glad NP fish oil is like 27 bucks for a thousand. good info snag.
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Fish oil quality varies greatly. If your fish oil smells bad....its no good. I think Carlson's is still the best bang for your buck. Forever searching though.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
When your cutting with a low carb diet? Say your cutting on 2000cals/day at a 40%/60% (p/f) split. That would be roughly 33 grams of fish oil at a 1/4th of your diet. Quite a bit.
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:confused:Don't quite understand that post.
Do you understand how a keto diet works? First of all, no diet should be 60% fat -- are you kidding me??
Second, keto still utilizes some carbs - grapefruit, broccoli, salads, etc.
And protein is always the highest macro consumed in this dieting fashion.
You're post makes no sense..
 
Now -- having said that:
There are gurus out there (Polliquin for example) who do advise 30g fish oil daily, for anabolic effects. Might want to check that out..
 
snagency said:
:confused:Don't quite understand that post.
Do you understand how a keto diet works? First of all, no diet should be 60% fat -- are you kidding me??
Second, keto still utilizes some carbs - grapefruit, broccoli, salads, etc.
And protein is always the highest macro consumed in this dieting fashion.
You're post makes no sense..
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Sheesh edgy tonight eh? I run UD 2.0 about 8 months of the year. However its basically low fat all the time.

Nice quads.
 
Di Pasquale does not recommend a higher fat-to-protein ratio, you are mistaken.
I don't know bodyopus thoroughly, but I have a hard time believing Duchaine would recommend such a diet, especially on a continous basis.

EDIT: Ahh, alright the Anabolic Diet is higher fat MON-FRI, you are correct. Sheesh. I knew the fat content was high this diet, not that high tho.
I don't like that ratio.
Note tho that there is still 30g carbs max to be had daily, and the W/E are carb-fests.
So, it's a bit different than a high-fat diet at all times.
 
A diet consisting of more fats then proteins? Wow, I don't think I could psychologically handle that, but you look pretty good Noyd, so I can't argue your results I suppose.

I need to bump my oils up, I was doing Sesamin and Fish Oils religiously for awhile, but I got off the wagon.
 
VolcomX311 said:
Or Professor Mullet

I'm shinning the Mullet Light

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and the Dr. Agonfly Light

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:lol: Happy to be of assistance though neither of you two, Irish and V, are not going to like what I'm about to say.

OK, Sam, you want to clear your beta receptors in order to add ephedrine into your fatloss stack, right ? WHY ?!!! Isn't fatloss possible without Ephedrine ?
OK, maybe you want the fast route. But I will ask again: WHY ?!

WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH SLOW AND SUSTAINABLE AND ABOVE ALL -SAFE ?



THE PRICE OF FAT LOSS: Invalid Link Removed

Ephedra is a drug with intended purpose on treating specific conditions. Why abuse drugs for anything other than their intended use ?! Is it REALLY WORTH IT ?! :confused:


* The World Health Organization found the following uses of ephedra preparations to be supported by clinical data: treatment of nasal congestion due to hay fever, allergic rhinitis, common cold, sinusitis, and as a bronchodilator in treatment of bronchial asthma.

Consumers should be educated in avoiding the use of ephedra for unproven purposes other than respiratory disorders and seek the guidance of appropriately trained health practitioners when considering the use of ephedra.

Possible Side Effects of Ephedra

nausea

headache; dizziness

irritation of the stomach; diarrhea

anxiety; psychosis

kidney stones

tremors

dry mouth

irregular or rapid heart rhythms; heart damage

high blood pressure

restlessness; nervousness; sleeping problems

decreased appetite

flushing; sweating

increased urination

* Use of ephedra has also been associated with stroke, seizures, psychosis and death.

* Ephedra is believed to increase the risk of heat stroke, because it increases metabolism and impairs the body's ability to lose heat.
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Invalid Link Removed - lot of stuff here, scroll down to :
7.7
9.1.1
9.2.1
9.3
9.4 for relevant information

* Sure, it says "possible side effects" and "may cause" such and such, but I ask you again, WHY TAKE THE RISK ? What is it that Ephedrine will help you to achieve that good diet and exercise won't ?

* And yes, you will find studies that say Ephedrine is safe to use. Right, ask yourself who gives the funding for such studies. Ask yourself how much $ do pharmaceutical companies make by selling "miracle pills". Ask yourself how much you trust conventional medicine.

[ame="http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FPI7zdGdqo4&feature=related"]YouTube - Most Astonishing Health Disaster of the 20th Century[/ame]
(disregard the promo at the end, irrelevant, the video makes a good point)

* My work has to do with evaluation of PPAR alpha and gamma ligands in treating aneurysm. We know how PPARs affect lipid metabolism and that is why they are attractive for us bodybuilding fanatics.
I've done studies in mice that shows these drugs are also effective in preventing aneurysm. The specific compounds I am using are commercially available. I have free access to these drugs. Would I use them ? No. I've seen their side effects as well. One particular drug caused extreme weight gain in mice due to excessive water retention. It impaired renal excretion of Sodium.

In the end, no I do not wish to be labelled as a hypocrite. I am not a hypocrite. Thanks to both of you, Sam and Irish, you made me re-evaluate my own position on supplementation.

I'm done with Yohimbe. :banned:

I can live with a bit of stubborn fat. I cannot live with damaged kidneys, heart or brain.

* Yohimbe has the potential to produce a six-mile laundry list of negative side effects including but not limited to anxiety, changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, heart palpitations, dizziness, headache, visual disturbances, nausea, abdominal cramps, increased body temperature, sweating, rashes, tremors, depression, hallucinations, nervousness, anxiety, mood changes, insomnia, vomiting, urinary retention, dilation of pupils and skin flushing.

THE END.
 
Okay, Dragonfly, you just crossed the line. That was totally uncalled for. Apologize to Mr. Y and Mr. E....We don't take kindly to your non-stimmed up type 'round these parts.
 
Dragonfly sounds like a doctor.

Poor lil Mr. E and Mr. Y.

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dragonfly said:
I knew I wasn't going to score any popularity points by posting that !
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:28: We asked for it and we got it, thanks for your input DF. Ephedrine isn't a "necessary" route I suppose. I wasn't planning on adding it for the fat burn, I was planning on adding it to get a kick back in my stims. I've grown 90% tolerant my Phenadrine, so my morning stims aren't giving me the early bird kick in the arse I want, so my original plan was just to take 25mg Ephed with my morning dose to jump start my crack 'o dawn, FT training. I suppose I could just double my Phenadrine in the morning or add whatever else in my arsenal. At my current stage, Ephed gives me a 3 hour burn and an immediate crash (I can tell this is where I'm at). The Y-HCL may still have a place, but I only dose that in the AM as well.

Thanks for the post DF.
 
VolcomX311 said:
:28: We asked for it and we got it, thanks for your input DF. Ephedrine isn't a "necessary" route I suppose. I wasn't planning on adding it for the fat burn, I was planning on adding it to get a kick back in my stims. I've grown 90% tolerant my Phenadrine, so my morning stims aren't giving me the early bird kick in the arse I want, so my original plan was just to take 25mg Ephed with my morning dose to jump start my crack 'o dawn, FT training. I suppose I could just double my Phenadrine in the morning or add whatever else in my arsenal. At my current stage, Ephed gives me a 3 hour burn and an immediate crash (I can tell this is where I'm at). The Y-HCL may still have a place, but I only dose that in the AM as well.

Thanks for the post DF.
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Okay, this is where you need to draw the line. I'm a stim-junkie, and I love them to death, but when you start having to double-dose, things have gone too far. Remember that your body is still feeling the effects of the stim, even if you aren't...That's how people OD, bro. While their bodies are still taking the beating, they have to take more and more to FEEL it.

I'd say take a week off stims, dose Reset-AD @ 3caps daily, and then get back on your Phenadrine with the addition of 12.5mg of Ephedrine.
 
Irish Cannon said:
Okay, this is where you need to draw the line. I'm a stim-junkie, and I love them to death, but when you start having to double-dose, things have gone too far. Remember that your body is still feeling the effects of the stim, even if you aren't...That's how people OD, bro. While their bodies are still taking the beating, they have to take more and more to FEEL it.

I'd say take a week off stims, dose Reset-AD @ 3caps daily, and then get back on your Phenadrine with the addition of 12.5mg of Ephedrine.
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Maybe I'll have to move up Phase T-911 sooner then I think :dunno: What would you recommend with T-911? DTHC? Or is that redundant... actually, I've used DTH twice and DTHC twice, I've never really been that impressed, I think I try to convince myself it's working solely based on all the rave reviews. I use it, go, "meh" read some more posts on it and I get re-amped to try it. Blue Up didn't do much, but of course I was dosing at suggested dosing and I hear 6 caps is the magic number, but that would require 3 bottles.
 
PS. I'm comfortable with 400mg caffeine, as I've done that many-a-times in the past (before I realized Ephedrine was so easily accessible). I'm not saying it was healthy, my blood pressure was high, I was seeing a doctor for other reasons and had my BP checked all the time, but I'm VERY comfortable with that amount of caffeine.
 
wow dragonfly, that is a scary post.
drinking too much water can kill you.....but i still take my chances and drink it anyway.
 
How's this? In your honest opinion, I have my Reduction AM still, where 2 caps are the recommended dosage, would bumping it up to 3 caps be reasonable in your opinion? The Reduction AM is not a rough stim.
 
Hank Vangut said:
wow dragonfly, that is a scary post.
drinking too much water can kill you.....but i still take my chances and drink it anyway.
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True, KissFM had a water drinking contest that ended in a death of a contestant, but I think she drank 2 or 3 gallons in one sitting and died of water toxicity.

However, as much as we push H20 hydration, I don't think any of us will drink 2-4 gallons in one sitting :684:
 
VolcomX311 said:
How's this? In your honest opinion, I have my Reduction AM still, where 2 caps are the recommended dosage, would bumping it up to 3 caps be reasonable in your opinion? The Reduction AM is not a rough stim.
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Sure. That sounds okay.

I agree with what you said about the DTHC (DTH/DTHC is the same thing, methinks) not being that effective. Granted, I'm young and probably won't see much from those products, but I really didn't think it was worth the price-tag at all. I would stack the T-911 with PCT-Assist by CEL. I haven't tried it, but it looks like a great product. It's basically a better version of AI's Stoked...Oh! Another product that looks awesome is T-Bol by Thermolife. I reaaaally want to try it.
 
Irish Cannon said:
Sure. That sounds okay.

I agree with what you said about the DTHC (DTH/DTHC is the same thing, methinks) not being that effective. Granted, I'm young and probably won't see much from those products, but I really didn't think it was worth the price-tag at all. I would stack the T-911 with PCT-Assist by CEL. I haven't tried it, but it looks like a great product. It's basically a better version of AI's Stoked...Oh! Another product that looks awesome is T-Bol by Thermolife. I reaaaally want to try it.
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Anything that ends in -BOL tends to grab my attention :fingersx: High hopes.
 
VolcomX311 said:
True, KissFM had a water drinking contest that ended in a death of a contestant, but I think she drank 2 or 3 gallons in one sitting and died of water toxicity.

However, as much as we push H20 hydration, I don't think any of us will drink 2-4 gallons in one sitting :684:
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exactly my point.
i'm sure most don't use so much yohimbine they start hallucinating or vomiting either.
 
VolcomX311 said:
PS. I'm comfortable with 400mg caffeine, as I've done that many-a-times in the past (before I realized Ephedrine was so easily accessible). I'm not saying it was healthy, my blood pressure was high, I was seeing a doctor for other reasons and had my BP checked all the time, but I'm VERY comfortable with that amount of caffeine.
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Vol are you just trying to improve your stim sensitivity? Have you tried DHB (the grapefruit juice effect)? This would be a better choice imo. And cheap.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
Vol are you just trying to improve your stim sensitivity? Have you tried DHB (the grapefruit juice effect)? This would be a better choice imo. And cheap.
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I just looked that up, I'm not familiar with the grapefruit/DHB method. I just read some literature on it after your post. I'm still not completely clear about it yet, but I'll look more into it. Thanks, Noyd.
 
VolcomX311 said:
I just looked that up, I'm not familiar with the grapefruit/DHB method. I just read some literature on it after your post. I'm still not completely clear about it yet, but I'll look more into it. Thanks, Noyd.
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Just as a heads up I think supplementing DHB is better then just drinking grapefruit juice. Most grapefruit juice is derived from various kinds of grapefruits. There was a study done comparing the DHB content of each type and Duncan grapefruits had a much larger content. Well your average OTC juice is not made from grapefruit juice (maybe an organic one might be). But for example white grapefruit juice from ocean spray is not made from duncan grapefruits (I emailed them to ask).

NP doesnt sell it, but you can get a bottle of it for 10 bucks usually.
 
Who needs grapefruit juice? Just eat grapefruit itself! Better for ya anyway, and obviously more pure.
I'm aware of the DHB connection/comparison to grapefruit; didn't think that extended beyond certain kinds of supplements.. the P450 enzyme activity, right? Thought that was just applicable to PH's.
 
somewhatgifted said:
I took p-sarm with yohimbe and i swear i had most of the side effects posted, i couldnt handle it!! Im i a puss or hypersensitive?
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Strange thing is, I'm 100% okay on Yohimbine HCL. No sides, no anything uncomfortable, awkward or out of the ordinary as far as stim goes. The only kind of Yohimbine that gives me sides (all day migraines) is the Yohimbine in Leviathan Reloaded. It's not the Geranium, because I've been on Phenadrine awhile and I'm perfectly fine :dunno: LR is definitely something I wished I could take (as with Beta Alanine), but the migraines always appear on day 2 or 3 with LR use.
 
The caveat to eating the grapefruit, is that the DHB/compounds of interest are bitter, and we have artificially selected against them in commercial products to produce sweeter grapefruits unfortunately (or fortunately, for those that like their ruby red's to be sweet ;) )
With that said, I have 5 grapefruits on my counter; they're a great low-GI fruit. I usually cut it up like an orange, but if I have the proper knife I do the hard work and get all the little pieces out like I did as a kid :D
 
snagency said:
Who needs grapefruit juice? Just eat grapefruit itself! Better for ya anyway, and obviously more pure.
I'm aware of the DHB connection/comparison to grapefruit; didn't think that extended beyond certain kinds of supplements.. the P450 enzyme activity, right? Thought that was just applicable to PH's.
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Yeah thats a good point (eating grapefruits). Actually most of the research was related to caffeine (and other drugs). But its applicable to PH's as well.

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Drugs that may be affected include oxycodone, midazolam, ciclosporin, lovastatin, methadone, dextromethorphan, simvastatin, pravastatin, felodipine, sildenafil (Viagra) and caffeine, as well as a number of antihistamines including astemizole and terfenadine. [10]
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Hank Vangut said:
yeah, royd.....stop drinking your protein shakes too.
just eat more cows.
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Moo
 
Steveoph said:
The caveat to eating the grapefruit, is that the DHB/compounds of interest are bitter, and we have artificially selected against them in commercial products to produce sweeter grapefruits unfortunately (or fortunately, for those that like their ruby red's to be sweet ;) )
With that said, I have 5 grapefruits on my counter; they're a great low-GI fruit. I usually cut it up like an orange, but if I have the proper knife I do the hard work and get all the little pieces out like I did as a kid :D
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I believe there is a higher content of DHB in white grapefruits btw. The ruby reds taste better though (imo).

I can probably find that Duncan grapefruit study if anyone really wants it...
 
Steveoph said:
The caveat to eating the grapefruit, is that the DHB/compounds of interest are bitter, and we have artificially selected against them in commercial products to produce sweeter grapefruits unfortunately (or fortunately, for those that like their ruby red's to be sweet ;) )
With that said, I have 5 grapefruits on my counter; they're a great low-GI fruit. I usually cut it up like an orange, but if I have the proper knife I do the hard work and get all the little pieces out like I did as a kid :D
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I love grapefruits. Now that we're back on the subject of stim rejuvination, do any of you have any thoughts or knowledge about the use of Benadryl for upregulating beta receptors?

It seems to be a grey area from what I've gathered and dug through.
 
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