Toremifene side effects
- Thread starter zacklewis
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Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
crazyfool405
Banned
monsterbox
Well-known member
are we talking after or with the SERM.
My upcoming pct for pp/sd bridge will be..
Torem 120,120,120,90,90,90,90/60/60
Reversitol (Contains ATD and 6bromo) 0/0/3/2/2/1
I feel like I won't need an AI during the first two weeks as you want to allow estrogen to return? Which is why I don't understand the point of ramping up inversely and then back down...if you are protected by the SERM then whats the point, just start the AI during the last week of the SERM imo.
crazyfool405
Banned
what people need to understand is that theres a higher amount of estrogen to testosterone when you come off cycle, which is why its important in the beginning to lower it a little while allowing the SERM to do its job, it will help your body recover faster, remember estradiol is responsible for the negative feedback loop.
but too low of estrogen will lower libido, so dose accordingly.
AIs arent just for blocking estrogen rebound after PCT they are for increasing LH and FSH in conjunction with the serm.
GotTest
Active member
This pretty much sums up what I've heard most experienced bodybuilders and Dr's report.
As far as Ralox...it's the most mild SERM I've ever used in terms of sides. I've dosed Ralox at 120mg/day for 2 weeks too.
No emotional issues, off the chart lipid profiles, gyno, etc.
Not sure I'm following you on the "ridiculously crazy sides"??:33:
crazyfool405
Banned
look it up on like web MD, i wouldnt touch that stuff, plus its not as good as the other 3 on HPTA
GotTest
Active member
An AI is an aromatase inhibitor. Testosterone is what is being aromatized. When Test levels are low, there just isn't much ( if any...depending on cycle)to aromatize.
I actually follow a taper up then back down and extended it beyond SERM use. Depending on length and dosing of Sdrol...without bloodwork, I would add at least another 2 weeks to my PCT after Sdrol.
I think most guys are seeing this Sdrol rebound cause they just aren't running a long enough PCT.
Weeks ON = Weeks PCT, just doesn't always work. This is fine for most DS/PH/AAS but NOT for all.
crazyfool405
Banned
Weeks on= Weeks PCT is just crazy
im not doing a 10 week PCT for my 10 week cycle, my PCT is 4-6 weeks long no more no less always.
GotTest
Active member
I experienced the same effects as Celc5.
I was emotional, lack of libido the first couple weeks at 60mg/day Torem after an extendend Tren cycle.
I did an EOD dose of 60mg/day Torem after a 6week Hdrol/11-oxo stack and PCT was MUCH smoother.
GotTest
Active member
10 week cycle of what?
Not all cycles are created equal and neither are us humans.
Bloodwork is REALLY the only way to go.
GotTest
Active member
I agree as far as HPTA, but relative to Tamox and long term use most Dr will prescribe Ralox.
Have you read the STAR report?
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crazyfool405
Banned
i havent read the report from the sides i saw they are worse in terms of severity but not as many (from what i saw anyway)
ill take a look at the star eport.
celc5
Well-known member
Let me ask the question in a different way. Do you think that the SERM has the potential to elevate estrogen levels in and of itself?
I see where monster is coming from. If there's not test to aromatize, then an aromatase inhibitor won't have an effect those first few days. If estradiol is already present, how would the AI be of any benefit in that scenario?
Finally, GT. My gyno-esque symptoms from superdrol showed up MONTHS later. Can't run estrogen control forever. This is NOT something that occured in weeks 5 or 6 or anything in the realm of post cycle.
crazyfool405
Banned
#1) possibly it does have mixed properties
#2) because estradiol is higher then Test which is why its benificial at the beginning as well.
GotTest
Active member
I know you went through a hell of battle with that $hit man:sad3:
I'm staying away from Sdrol. Most seem to get hit with a "delayed gyno" on this stuff.
I think there needs to be a whole different PCT protocol thought out with Sdrol.
3 weeks Sdrol/8 week PCT with low dose SERM after 4th week? Or just Pulse AND run typical PCT?
Does estradiol take such a hit with Sdrol that it just "surges" for months to obtain homeostasis??? I don't know.
We are all just "hoping for the best" without bloodwork though...aren't we?
celc5
Well-known member
I know you went through a hell of battle with that $hit man:sad3:
I'm staying away from Sdrol. Most seem to get hit with a "delayed gyno" on this stuff.
I think there needs to be a whole different PCT protocol thought out with Sdrol.
3 weeks Sdrol/8 week PCT with low dose SERM after 4th week? Or just Pulse AND run typical PCT?
Does estradiol take such a hit with Sdrol that it just "surges" for months to obtain homeostasis??? I don't know.
We are all just "hoping for the best" without bloodwork though...aren't we?
You know the weird thing is that I had ZERO estrogenic symptoms with libido, strength, energy, mood, etc. And I got bloodwork just this week and everything across the board was normal except my HDL was a tad lower than expected. I'd be scared to see what my HDL was right after SD :run:
And on the gyno note, my issue was super duper mild. I fukcin feel sorry for the poor chumps that end up with real deal gyno lumps. That's gotta be a frustrating situation.
GotTest
Active member
Good to hear brother!:01:
Did you have any hormonals run?
celc5
Well-known member
Total T: 490
Free T: 28
Estradiol: 37
I tried to get LH, FSH, SHBG, prolactin, and cortisol. But she rolled her eyes and then made a mean face at me. I guess she'd only bend so far before I pushed too hard with getting bloodwork again.
Last year's numbers were pretty close. Maybe just a tad higher total test. But otherwise, the HDL was the only thing that stood out to me. HDL was in the high 50's last year.
Free T: 28
Estradiol: 37
I tried to get LH, FSH, SHBG, prolactin, and cortisol. But she rolled her eyes and then made a mean face at me. I guess she'd only bend so far before I pushed too hard with getting bloodwork again.
Last year's numbers were pretty close. Maybe just a tad higher total test. But otherwise, the HDL was the only thing that stood out to me. HDL was in the high 50's last year.
crazyfool405
Banned
when asking for hormonal panel let her know you were taking some SSRIs (herbal) and that your worried about your SHBG and Prolactin because its a phytoestrogen as well as a SSRI and you were concerned
Estradiol seems a little high to me.
Dragon13
Active member
Those were some interesting studies on Torem vs Tamox, It's funny, b/c in my reasearch I found every study to cocnclude Torem was vastly superior to Tamox in terms of hepatoxicity and lipid profiles. I will post the links tomorrow when I'm at work (saved at work).
Anyway... I was going to start a new thread, but there seem to be some pretty knowledgeable guys in here. I have Torem on hand for my PCT which will start next Tuesday. My question concerns dosing. I ran the new 1-T product; my log can be found here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/111555-definitive-1-t.html
This is supposed to be mild, but then again I've experienced some nipple irritation and I believe I have some testicular atrophy, so I have concerns. I'm looking for recommendations on dosing. I know the standard is something like 120/90/60/30 or so, but I'd like to get some opinions. Any input here would be appreciated.
Anyway... I was going to start a new thread, but there seem to be some pretty knowledgeable guys in here. I have Torem on hand for my PCT which will start next Tuesday. My question concerns dosing. I ran the new 1-T product; my log can be found here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/111555-definitive-1-t.html
This is supposed to be mild, but then again I've experienced some nipple irritation and I believe I have some testicular atrophy, so I have concerns. I'm looking for recommendations on dosing. I know the standard is something like 120/90/60/30 or so, but I'd like to get some opinions. Any input here would be appreciated.
GotTest
Active member
Read through your post a bit toward the end.
Glad to see the Reversitol is working out for you.
KEEP using it through PCT.
I have enough experience where I can kinda "read" my body. If I feel lethargic, low libido, nut shrinkage then yeah I would hit the Torem at 120mg the first day or two then back off to an EOD dosing at 90mg/day, then taper in half every week.
Reversitol...I would run a taper up then down if you have enough (1/2/3/3/2/1) or something similar. Not sure of the ATD dosing in the Reversitol but if it's dosed too high your libido will take a serious hit.
Torem isn't the best for MY libido...just keep that it mind.
GotTest
Active member
I agree... and so do most others.
Dr D had a pretty in depth SERM post, which turned me to Torem over Tamox.:fing02:
mattikus
Well-known member
I have never heard of Ralox causing any side effects at all. I know it is not the best for hpta recovery, but in terms of gyno and estrogen control everything I have heard is good. Torem gave me sides so bad I had to ditch it. Messed me up pretty good. Dizziness, headache, emotion, aggh. Nolva never bothered me but I have never taken more than 40 mg for a few days than going with 20, (along with other otc pct support) for 3-4 weeks. I was thinking about using Ralox for my next pct, along with some otc stuff.
GotTest
Active member
Only real "side" I've experienced with Torem is emotions and decrease in libido. I think you dosed WAY too high...like most do.
Now Ralox I would dose at 120mg/day for the first 7 days, then taper down (which I've done in the past). I didn't get that IMMEDIATE recovery feeling like with Torem/Clomid until the end of the second week. I had absolutely no sides to speak of...maybe slight decrease in libido first week or two.
Dragon13
Active member
That's kinda what I was thinking, 120 the first few days then quickly cut to 90. Although the bolded part above confused me - it's 90 mg/day right? Not 90 mgs every other day?
Re: the Reversitol - my only concern with this in PCT is there appears to be some debate as to whether or not it actually may be mildly suppressive. I was going to run a mild dose tapering up anyway, but any thoughts on this? Thanks
GotTest
Active member
No, I've actually switched to an EOD dosing with Torem and Clomid. Thing is these SERMS have a 5-7 day HALF LIFE, so I experimented with some EOD dosing and it felt MUCH smoother. However...after talking with some experienced pharmacological experts
onder:...you need to kind of "build up" before doing an EOD dosing, hence the the 2 day 120mg switched to an EOD.Reversitol...suppressive...I SERIOUSLY doubt it.
Keep running it.
mattikus
Well-known member
The smallest doses did this to me.:22: It is definitely not for me.Only real "side" I've experienced with Torem is emotions and decrease in libido. I think you dosed WAY too high...like most do.
Dragon13
Active member
Reversitol...suppressive...I SERIOUSLY doubt it.
Keep running it.
Lol, not the product itself, but some metabolites... Just what Ive seen in some threads concerning it. But you're right, I think I will still run it. Thanks for the help.
GotTest
Active member
Yeah they said the same thing about Formestane...NOT suppressive.
I think what confuses people with AI's is the fact that some are "steroidal".
xtyler
Well-known member
Good call on the ramp up/down with the reversitol.:wave2:
GotTest
Active member
Thanks brother!
:wave2:
hardknock
Well-known member
C, you can have higher levels of Estrogen due to your natural test being shut down after coming off of a "heavy" cycle. So, in effect, your Estrogen will be naturally higher, considerably, compared to your test so that even if a drug does not automatize, your estrogen levels can still be a problem for you. There used to be such substances known as total suicide inhibitors which completely destroyed your estrogen levels (or so they said) which some people used while on cycle EOD to lower the natural level of estrogen so that they wouldn't have a problem after cycle. Albeit, this all depends on how harsh/shutdown you were on the cycle...
BTW: I have ran torem 3 times, each time I have ran it 120 (3 days), 90(4 days), 60 (7 days), 30 (7 days), then taper down the last week with 25 (4 days), to 10 (3 days)...as i can remember but it's been 3 years nearly, and my memory is vague.
I have gotten blood work done during the PCT and two weeks after PCT, also, I have gotten FSH/LH checked (basically told them I was trying to get pregnant..not me, my g/f at the time
My sperm counts were always normal after using that method of torem, testicles always back to full hash..etc...lipid panels always back to normal, etc, etc.If your having trouble getting certain blood work done just tell them that someone gave you something and SAID it was legal, but you found out it was a steroid and you want to check things to see if it did any damage. Or, your trying to have kids and want to get your sperm count/strength checked.
monsterbox
Well-known member
I dont understand the point of ramping up against the SERM....why not just start the AI when the SERM is starting to really taper off at a lower number.
Eg.
Torem 90/60/30/30
Reverisol 0/0/3/2/2/1 <<<why would it be needed 1/2/3/2/2/1??? The SERM has a long enough half life, and it dosed high enough at 90/60 that it should ward off gyno perfectly fine while boosting test.
Besides, IMO, if you come off an estrogen suppressive cycle like epi/winny/super, you won't have estrogen at the start of pct, until test rises....if you introduce an AI too early, then you won't be able to call up the test???
Eg.
Torem 90/60/30/30
Reverisol 0/0/3/2/2/1 <<<why would it be needed 1/2/3/2/2/1??? The SERM has a long enough half life, and it dosed high enough at 90/60 that it should ward off gyno perfectly fine while boosting test.
Besides, IMO, if you come off an estrogen suppressive cycle like epi/winny/super, you won't have estrogen at the start of pct, until test rises....if you introduce an AI too early, then you won't be able to call up the test???
celc5
Well-known member
I agree with the first part of your post. Most of the bloodwork that I've seen immediately post cyle with our current batch of designers has all estrogen levels almost next to zero. I feel like a lot of the popular philosophies are based on pretty solid logic, but apply more to test cycles and more of the old designers that would aromatize on cycle.
On the flip side, one popular theory suggests that if you crush aromatization early on in pct, it actually instigates a boost in hpta activity. I think that was the selling point for the 6oxo pct strategy when it first came out.
crazyfool405
Banned
first part is a NEGATIVE- my E2 levels were 21 and T levels were like 4. this is on PP SD bridge.
celc5
Well-known member
Isn't that pretty normal? If not, do u think the E2 was due to aromatization?
GotTest
Active member
Truth is without bloodwork, no one really knows EXACTLY what day Test/Est levels starts to rise to it's peak while using a SERM...could be day 5, 10, 13, who knows? If I start dosing an AI at day 15 I may have miss the boat.
I do know that Test will start out low, so there won't be "much" to aromatize anyway...period. So, if I begin AI tapering up I'm at least inhibiting aromatase to SOME degree as my Test begins to rise...get me? Not to mention, I have gyno anyway, so I take know chances in any flare/aggravation.
AI's inhibit the aromatase of Test to Est, it doesn't inhibit the PRODUCTION of Test.
crazyfool405
Banned
no but the imbalance for too long like that will likely cause problems and hinder your recovery, add the AI in early and recovery is quicker.
celc5
Well-known member
I'm out of questions. Crazy fool is relieved :nana:
crazyfool405
Banned
I like to help in relieved when people ask questions so people understand instead of just doint it cuz someone said
Dragon13
Active member
OK I started PCT with Torem @ 120 mgs 2 days ago. Today I dropped to 90, and it was also my first day in the gym post-cycle. A few things to report:
1) I basically just shot the liquid right into my mouth and washed it down with some water. I've noticed this is giving me a fuzzy tongue feeling, like a numb tongue. Anyone else experience this?
2) More importantly: I felt like **** in the gym today. Just overall like ****. I cut the WO short b/c of it. Anyone else experience this?
3) I also have felt kinda off. Hard to describe, but almost like my head is cloudy, like I have a head cold or something. Anyone else?
Finally, I've been taking it in the AM (around 11:00). Any reason not to do this, or does it not really matter? This is my first time using Torem and it's been... weird, I guess. I'm just scared something isn't going right b/c my gym session sucked. Next gym time is Monday, so I'll know more then, but if anyone has had these experiences too please share.
1) I basically just shot the liquid right into my mouth and washed it down with some water. I've noticed this is giving me a fuzzy tongue feeling, like a numb tongue. Anyone else experience this?
2) More importantly: I felt like **** in the gym today. Just overall like ****. I cut the WO short b/c of it. Anyone else experience this?
3) I also have felt kinda off. Hard to describe, but almost like my head is cloudy, like I have a head cold or something. Anyone else?
Finally, I've been taking it in the AM (around 11:00). Any reason not to do this, or does it not really matter? This is my first time using Torem and it's been... weird, I guess. I'm just scared something isn't going right b/c my gym session sucked. Next gym time is Monday, so I'll know more then, but if anyone has had these experiences too please share.
crazyfool405
Banned
numbness is normal, take it with a swig of water in your mouth then drop in the torem.
split the doses and take the highest dose at night (E2 levels are higher at night)
Also remember Torem has AI properties.
your gym session sucked because
1) you let it get in your head your on PCT
2) your hormones are NOT back to normal yet
3) your nervous about it.
hardknock
Well-known member
I think you are correct, somewhat, as my experience sets with the old brands, PP, M1t, test based, etc...however, the logic is still solid when dealing with intake of hormonal products. I, myself, have never dealt with a product which is supposed to "lower" estrogen or resolve gyno?, such as epi ... However, if epi left your T levels lower than your E levels (such as crazy's was), it still poses threat for uncomfortable reactions, hence the AI.
hardknock
Well-known member
In my 3 runs of Torem, i have NEVER felt any of these that you are describing, except the numb tongue feeling because the Torem tasted pasty, and anything pasty will numb my tongue.
Also, how long have you been "off", did you just start pct?
GotTest
Active member
Same experiences myself (except emotional) which is why I switched to EOD.
Try it and tell me how you feel then.
monsterbox
Well-known member
so do you guys buy oral syringes to measure out your dosages? Mine just has a long glass dropper...no clue
hardknock
Well-known member
Wait, so your dropper didn't have the labels printed on the side? hmmmmm, every one that I have dealt with has had the numbers printed on the side.