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Gut Health Heads Up

dsade

dsade

NutraPlanet Fanatic
Apparently Gut Health sells too much for the liking of the patent holder. We have received an issue letter from the patent holder rejecting our licensing agreement, which was arranged between myself and an agent authorized by him, that they would be terminating supply.

This is early, as we have not had a chance to discuss the issue - but I am just posting this as a courtesy to all GH lovers.

I will keep this thread updated.
 
Wow, I hope you're able to talk some sense into the patent holder. If you don't there are going to be a lot of smelly households in the near future.
 
Sounds like the patent holder used Dsade's company to put the product out there and get name/product recognition to just profit from another's hard work...

It's an assumption on my part but this seems pretty f'd up to me.
 
Jayhawkk said:
Sounds like the patent holder used Dsade's company to put the product out there and get name/product recognition to just profit from another's hard work...

It's an assumption on my part but this seems pretty f'd up to me.
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Actually that is exactly what it seems like - especially since we are now into stock and advertising deals for over $40k plus web development costs.

I was assured before signing these contracts that everything was secure for plenty of time to come.
 
I'm glad i'm not in the business i'm already disgruntled enough as it is. Something like that would cause me to go over the edge. When you start pulling from my family's mouths it's gonna get ugly.
 
If that's true it's really disappointing how greedy some people can be.
 
Jayhawkk said:
I'm glad i'm not in the business i'm already disgruntled enough as it is. Something like that would cause me to go over the edge. When you start pulling from my family's mouths it's gonna get ugly.
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The impetus for this, according to the email, was "another company" inquiring about licensing the strain as well.

I can't help but wonder who it is.
 
So it's a case of we can make more money with a bigger offer so give us more money or we're closing up your product line...
 
Jayhawkk said:
So it's a case of we can make more money with a bigger offer so give us more money or we're closing up your product line...
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That's what it certainly seems to be. Plus I was informed by the agent that Gut health was vastly outselling his house branded product, ProBioHealth.
 
Wow that's terrible news. Hopefully this doesn't end up being the end of the line for gut health; I suppose the "Verbal Contract/Agreement" about having the supply open for a generous period of time holds any weight in court?
 
unreal D. THis might push me to the edge, as I and many others rely on this to keep everything moving a long nicely.

Good luck
 
Steveoph said:
Wow that's terrible news. Hopefully this doesn't end up being the end of the line for gut health; I suppose the "Verbal Contract/Agreement" about having the supply open for a generous period of time holds any weight in court?
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It does, but we can't afford to take them to court.

I have been working on some complementary organisms for the last few months - organisms that not only have some of the same benefits, but that also confer benefits of actual body recomposition (there has been some news exposure on these, if you look closely).

Might be time to fasttrack these as a backup.

Certainly throws a huge wrench into the works here. I think we are down to less than 500 bottles of GH35, and less than 100 GH75s.
 
dsade said:
I have been working on some complementary organisms for the last few months - organisms that not only have some of the same benefits, but that also confer benefits of actual body recomposition (there has been some news exposure on these, if you look closely).

Might be time to fasttrack these as a backup.
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Could it be argued that more complimentary strains instead of just supplementing one strain may create a more diverse floral colony to defend against illness, maximize nutrient uptake, and potentially (as you suggested) have body recomp benefits?

Just trying to find a silver lining if what we're speculating comes to fruition.
 
SilentBob187 said:
Could it be argued that more complimentary strains instead of just supplementing one strain may create a more diverse floral colony to defend against illness, maximize nutrient uptake, and potentially (as you suggested) have body recomp benefits?

Just trying to find a silver lining if what we're speculating comes to fruition.
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There is a fine balance here. The more organisms you throw into it, the more competition there is to find initial enteric binding sites - and the more warfare you have amongst the competing colonies - actually resulting in LESS effective product. This is the reason people are not experiencing great benefits from shotgun approached products containing 6 different strains.

There should be a mediated approach, though, and I am looking at two specific strains - one to eliminate the flatulence issue (which actually appears, on paper, to be superior to KE-99) and the other is the Immune boosting/nutrient absorption issue.

Given enough time, I am confident that I can improve the product - just hadn't counted on something this urgent.

I'm extremely curious to see who this other company is...but one post somewhere else gives me a suspicion.
 
Damn. I hope you get things worked out Dsade. Gut Health has become a staple here for me, and this certainly has to put a crimp in your bottom line.
 
Unbelievable. People these days. I really hope everything works out for the best. Gut Health is a staple of mine and I would like to keep it that way.
 
So I guess we will be seeing a new Activia at our grocery stores. Moving to a huge company is one of the only reasons to even test legal action.

Adams
 
DAdams91982 said:
So I guess we will be seeing a new Activia at our grocery stores. Moving to a huge company is one of the only reasons to even test legal action.

Adams
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I'm thinking it might be another company in the industry, which has deeper pockets than mine and offered a sweeter deal.

Time will tell, though...time will tell.
 
dsade said:
I'm thinking it might be another company in the industry, which has deeper pockets than mine and offered a sweeter deal.

Time will tell, though...time will tell.
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Would be pretty fxcked up. L. Cas has caught on with a billion new strands all the time. If one is very useful, I bet it does catch the eye of some big name that any supp company can't compete with.
 
I also am very curious about whos cutting your grass. Due to the nature of certain companies i have it narrowed down to two in my mind.
 
that sucks a big one. i really was fond of gut health.
i hope they dont mess with you guys like that. either way you guys have my support.
 
This sh8its a bummer. Didn't you you guys have big issues being screwed over by a supplier or something like that last year? This just needs to stop.
 
This is insane! Ordinarily, one would assume that the more Gut Health sells, the more royalty the patent holder gets. Except someone else is offering him a more generous deal on an exclusive licence. This industry is really dog eat dog, in most cases. Low ethics and morals more often than not! :frustrate:
 
If it is someone in the industry, i'd assume it would be fairly easy to tell who it was, once the product comes out. Been patiently waiting for my gut health to get across the border.
 
dsade said:
It does, but we can't afford to take them to court.

I have been working on some complementary organisms for the last few months - organisms that not only have some of the same benefits, but that also confer benefits of actual body recomposition (there has been some news exposure on these, if you look closely).

Might be time to fasttrack these as a backup.

Certainly throws a huge wrench into the works here. I think we are down to less than 500 bottles of GH35, and less than 100 GH75s.
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Dude, this is weak. If you have been wronged, retain a lawyer and go after them. At least have the lawyer file the initial paperwork. More times than not, they will at least offer a settlement. Nobody wants to go to court.
 
scottyc33 said:
If they are breaking a contract you should sue, or at least threaten to sue.
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Depends on what state said verbal contract was in. Without a written contract... there isnt anything that one can usually do.

That is the problem with the world today... the integrity is slipping everyday.

Adams
 
dsade said:
I'm thinking it might be another company in the industry, which has deeper pockets than mine and offered a sweeter deal.

Time will tell, though...time will tell.
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I'll be sure to boycott whichever company it turns out to be!

I love my gut health!
 
DAdams91982 said:
Depends on what state said verbal contract was in. Without a written contract... there isnt anything that one can usually do.

That is the problem with the world today... the integrity is slipping everyday.

Adams
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Well, that's also the problem with getting verbal rather than written commitments. It's business, nothing personal.

Although, if someone tries to f*ck with my wallet, I take it personally and go after them guns blazing.
 
scottyc33 said:
Well, that's also the problem with getting verbal rather than written commitments. It's business, nothing personal.

Although, if someone tries to f*ck with my wallet, I take it personally and go after them guns blazing.
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I'm saving this option for last.

Still waiting on an acknowedgement from the Patent Holder.
 
Jayhawkk said:
I'm glad i'm not in the business i'm already disgruntled enough as it is. Something like that would cause me to go over the edge. When you start pulling from my family's mouths it's gonna get ugly.
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I agree. That's not something that I want to ever happen, because I know how I am.

Damn, Matt, it seems like someone is always trying to get over on you. (Supplement company in AL did so as well)

If someone else puts it out, I will boycott the living hell out of it. I don't give a rat's ass how well it works, I cannot support companies that step over people out of greed.

I really hope this works out for you, as well as your loyal customers (me :D).
 
Update:

It is finished.

Having combed through several emails of complete BS, it basically comes down to greed.

Apparently I should be screwing you guys harder on the price and therein lies the problem.

First, the patent holder stated that I should not be using the KE-99 moniker on anything. Well, law states that I have to include a full description of the content of my product, including denoting the subspecies used.

Second, the patent holder states that I can't claim assistance with lactose intolerance. Now, not only are the lactobacillus organism WELL DOCUMENTED here for this function, on his very website, probiohealth.com, he has an entire page dedicated to this function of his product.

After pointing this out to him, he claims that my dosage of 1 billion CFU is insufficient to ellicit enough effect. Well, we modified our product to be enteric coated, thus reducing that number of organisms necessary. Second, once again on hisw very own website he apparently has a duplicate product WITH THE VERY SAME DOSAGE.

Then, after hemming and hawing, he claims that his supplier has gone out of business and he no longer has ANY supply. Now, how he claims to be ready to sign a new license deal with another company, yet has no supply is beyond me.

It's clear that the entire situation is BS - but regardless, the remaining stock of Gut Health is all that exists, and the relationship hopelessly mired.

I'll get to work tracking down these new organisms (one of which actually appears to be superior to KE-99 in gas reduction).

Considering I had just signed a $40k advertising deal with Travelocity, we're basically screwed.

and I think to myself...what a wonderful world.
 
Damn, Matt, I'm sorry to hear this.
Well, there's only one thing we can all do - Buy more RPN stuff! And boycott the hell out of whomever puts it out, or has anything to do with this greedy son of a b*tch!
 
Check your PM's (Nevermind, apparently I cant send any).... what I was going to say is this [sorry I didnt want to waste other people's time trying to read through it]

"Yo, if thats the deal with the gut health supplier and you signed an advertising deal with another company relying on the verbal agreement that you had with the inital supplier, then i would suggest you get an attorney. I am currently studying law, and work for a small firm so i can tell you that IF this is the case you can more likely than not get an attorney on a contingency basis (they dont get paid unless you recover) and there is a contractual basis for your claim.
SPecifically, depending on what state you are in and the state law governing, there is something called collateral estoppel, if you relied on his verbal agreement to supply you and then you relied on that to sign an advertising contract, you should be able to recover the amount, or at least a portion, of the contract that you lost out on because of him backing out....,\

just wanted to throw that out there, I know you said you cant afford an attorney, but if this is how it happened, then you can probably find one that will help you out on a contingency basis.

Gut health was a good product, good luck with the situation you are in, hope it works out


dsade said:
Update:

It is finished.

Having combed through several emails of complete BS, it basically comes down to greed.

Apparently I should be screwing you guys harder on the price and therein lies the problem.

First, the patent holder stated that I should not be using the KE-99 moniker on anything. Well, law states that I have to include a full description of the content of my product, including denoting the subspecies used.

Second, the patent holder states that I can't claim assistance with lactose intolerance. Now, not only are the lactobacillus organism WELL DOCUMENTED here for this function, on his very website, probiohealth.com, he has an entire page dedicated to this function of his product.

After pointing this out to him, he claims that my dosage of 1 billion CFU is insufficient to ellicit enough effect. Well, we modified our product to be enteric coated, thus reducing that number of organisms necessary. Second, once again on hisw very own website he apparently has a duplicate product WITH THE VERY SAME DOSAGE.

Then, after hemming and hawing, he claims that his supplier has gone out of business and he no longer has ANY supply. Now, how he claims to be ready to sign a new license deal with another company, yet has no supply is beyond me.

It's clear that the entire situation is BS - but regardless, the remaining stock of Gut Health is all that exists, and the relationship hopelessly mired.

I'll get to work tracking down these new organisms (one of which actually appears to be superior to KE-99 in gas reduction).

Considering I had just signed a $40k advertising deal with Travelocity, we're basically screwed.

and I think to myself...what a wonderful world.
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Damn man, that really, really sucks. Very sorry to hear you got screwed on this D. Just remember YOU da man and arn't going to let this short term pot hole on your road to success deter you and your awsome company in the long run.

I hope you can recoup your loss, and if not, at least take a small piece of consolation that Karma is a BITCH and brings it with interest to people like this sooner or later.

I AM very excited about the news of something better being on the horizon, though. I'm glad you've been abe to hook us up with an incredile product for a great price. I've been stocking up past few orders and now have a year's worth to tide me over until your new stuff is ready. :D
 
Iron Lungz said:
Damn, Matt, I'm sorry to hear this.
Well, there's only one thing we can all do - Buy more RPN stuff! And boycott the hell out of whomever puts it out, or has anything to do with this greedy son of a b*tch!
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Agree. Dsade's summary of the outcome was something I dreaded to hear. Gut Health is/was awesome!
 
WeaponX1984 said:
...

"Yo, if thats the deal with the gut health supplier and you signed an advertising deal with another company relying on the verbal agreement that you had with the inital supplier, then i would suggest you get an attorney. I am currently studying law, and work for a small firm so i can tell you that IF this is the case you can more likely than not get an attorney on a contingency basis (they dont get paid unless you recover) and there is a contractual basis for your claim.
SPecifically, depending on what state you are in and the state law governing, there is something called collateral estoppel, if you relied on his verbal agreement to supply you and then you relied on that to sign an advertising contract, you should be able to recover the amount, or at least a portion, of the contract that you lost out on because of him backing out....,\

just wanted to throw that out there, I know you said you cant afford an attorney, but if this is how it happened, then you can probably find one that will help you out on a contingency basis.
...
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This option sounds like it is worthy of further exploration. I hope RPN can somehow limit the damages!
 
Wow Matt, thats rediculous....sorry to hear.....as you know im a huuuuuge fan of gut health and have promoted it from the start..

good luck my friend
 
Least we can look forward to the great things RPN will be offering in the future :)
 
Chub said:
Least we can look forward to the great things RPN will be offering in the future :)
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These new strains are actually pretty fascinating. they exist in SPORE form that is activated by Bile. They are resistant to both moisture and acid conditions - which eliminate the need for the enteric coating.

They are also extremely efficient at nutrient utilization.

Just waiting to hear back from the Bio lab to see what the commercial viability is. Hoping something tomorrow.
 
dsade said:
These new strains are actually pretty fascinating. they exist in SPORE form that is activated by Bile. They are resistant to both moisture and acid conditions - which eliminate the need for the enteric coating.

They are also extremely efficient at nutrient utilization.

Just waiting to hear back from the Bio lab to see what the commercial viability is. Hoping something tomorrow.
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That is quite a unique delivery indeed. Spore based delivery is about as resilliant as it comes.

Look forward to hearing more about this.
 
Trauma1 said:
That is quite a unique delivery indeed. Spore based delivery is about as resilliant as it comes.

Look forward to hearing more about this.
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Best thing is that they are moisture resistant - which means the limitations we had with Gut Health no longer apply.

Back to my original design for ProBioGummies!!
 
dsade said:
Best thing is that they are moisture resistant - which means the limitations we had with Gut Health no longer apply.

Back to my original design for ProBioGummies!!
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Yeah, that should work well for your design with the probiogummies. I was having a convo with some of the dr's at work this week about probiotics and how they're vastly underused in modern medicine.

I'm interested to see the activation and physiology of these probiotic strains. Nice work, matt!
 
Matt that truely sucks. Even though that was a verbal contract as I understand, still seems like that was a breech of contract. Good luck and I'm with Iron on the boycott of the other company if we find out!
 
dsade said:
Best thing is that they are moisture resistant - which means the limitations we had with Gut Health no longer apply.

Back to my original design for ProBioGummies!!
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And as they have been tested in animals it leaves us open to maybe add it to the dog treats.
 
dg806 said:
Matt that truely sucks. Even though that was a verbal contract as I understand, still seems like that was a breech of contract. Good luck and I'm with Iron on the boycott of the other company if we find out!
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I appreciate it.

Unfortunately (look at Syntrax and Muscletech), we are not in a position to be able to take someone to court over this yet.

I might check the statute of limitations (or civil equivalent) since the monetary loss IS real and long reaching. At this point, my energies are best conserved moving beyond and improving the product - which I have. :)
 
crader said:
And as they have been tested in animals it leaves us open to maybe add it to the dog treats.
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And I just found a product that uses the same general FAMILY of organisms...which stands as initial confirmation for my hypothesis.

This is a definite approach I want to explore, since we are finding dogs and cats beginning to suffer the same immune disorders as people.
 
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