Could AndroGel shut down your own T prod

ratdog

New member
The folks at Solvay that market AndroGel tell me in their trials of AndroGel they did not have a patient that the AndroGel caused their own bodies to slow down the production of their own testosterone. Has anyone had a doctor or lab tests confirm that it has that effect? I started 4 pumps per day 4/30 and felt like I went backwards after about 10 to 14 days of use. My doc will not adjust dose period until at least 8 weeks pass, she said that's how long it will take to see how it effects my labs. The maker of AndroGel is very careful not to say anything about the product unless it was confirmed in their trials. The only improvement I notice now is a drop in my bp. Any thoughts from users past or present?
 
Any exogenous, systemic testosterone will cause a degree of shutdown.
 
ratdog said:
The folks at Solvay that market AndroGel tell me in their trials of AndroGel they did not have a patient that the AndroGel caused their own bodies to slow down the production of their own testosterone. Has anyone had a doctor or lab tests confirm that it has that effect? I started 4 pumps per day 4/30 and felt like I went backwards after about 10 to 14 days of use. My doc will not adjust dose period until at least 8 weeks pass, she said that's how long it will take to see how it effects my labs. The maker of AndroGel is very careful not to say anything about the product unless it was confirmed in their trials. The only improvement I notice now is a drop in my bp. Any thoughts from users past or present?
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If you do not worry about $$, Androgel is probably the best transdermal testosterone.

Any transdermal testosterone will increase DHT, most often sky high.

Only those who need increase of their DHT should use transdermal testosterone.

Those who do not have a choice also should use it as a lesser evil than low testosterone.

Everybody should start external T with HCG.
Nothing is gained , actually everybody goes backward without HCG.

It is pointless and cruel to not use HCG with testosterone.
Unfortunately it happens often, because of doctor's ignorance.
.
.
The usually seen HCG dose 2x250iu or 4x250iu for a total of no more than 1000iu is too small.

1500-2000iu is much better (for primaries).

Well, better is to find out if men is secondary and if hi is, try mostly or exclusively HCG theraphy.
It provides natural (own) testosterone.
.
.

.
 
I agree with dsade, and I also suggest your review the package inserts that came with your androgel. On the back of one of the included sheets, not the blue patient information, the other black printed sheet. Near the bottom of the page under the heading dosage and administration, it should clearly say:

" Serum testosterone levels should be measured approximately 14 days after initiation of therapy to ensure proper dosing. If the serum testosterone concentration is below the normal range, or if the desired clinical response is not achieved, the daily AndroGel dose may be increased........."

Perhaps you may want to discuss the instructions from the drug company with your doctor, along with, or possibly more importantly, talk about how you were feeling. Although I dont always subscribe to the more is better theory, you have to get your dosage right before you can make a true assessment of actual effectiveness.

Hope this might help you.
:cheers:
 
ratdog said:
Has anyone had a doctor or lab tests confirm that it has that effect?
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Yup. After 10 weeks my levels were exactly where they started and my balls had disappeared. Now up to 6 pumps. Feeling better. 14 days may not be long enough for endogenous shutdown (think mine happened around 6 weeks - but it will almost certainly happen without hCG) so waiting 8 weeks before titrating might make sense.
 
Thanks Guys for the input, all of my numbers on my blood tests my doc say are within the normal range except total testosterone, now around 268. She thinks my testicles are not producing enough T. or the extreme stress level in my life is suppressing it. What exactly is "hcg" and are most guys using it that are prescribed AndroGel? Would an endo doc know much about hcg. Sometimes I worry because she it a female her experience is limited in the area of male hrt. My only other choice around here is my GP. He had me start T shots about 7 years ago, I quit after 3 month because I thought I was "cured". That was a bad mistake. Now I am 47 lbs overweight, depressed and on Welbutrin 300mg, and have very little energy. I did get my next appointment moved up 2 weeks. Hope she will increase my dose at that point. Anyone know of a breakfast or energy bar that has no soy in it? Thanks
 
ratdog said:
Thanks Guys for the input, all of my numbers on my blood tests my doc say are within the normal range except total testosterone, now around 268. She thinks my testicles are not producing enough T. or the extreme stress level in my life is suppressing it. What exactly is "hcg" and are most guys using it that are prescribed AndroGel? Would an endo doc know much about hcg. Sometimes I worry because she it a female her experience is limited in the area of male hrt. My only other choice around here is my GP. He had me start T shots about 7 years ago, I quit after 3 month because I thought I was "cured". That was a bad mistake. Now I am 47 lbs overweight, depressed and on Welbutrin 300mg, and have very little energy. I did get my next appointment moved up 2 weeks. Hope she will increase my dose at that point. Anyone know of a breakfast or energy bar that has no soy in it? Thanks
Click to expand...

This study has become invaluable for well meaning doctors not "in the know".


Invalid Link Removed

"The dose of hCG required to maintain baseline ITT concentrations in men with maximal gonadotropin suppression is significantly lower than that historically used in the treatment of infertility due to hypogonadotropic hypogonadism."

Just don't tell her you want to sign up for the "percutaneous testicular aspiration" lol.
 
RockyD said:
Have you tried Depo-T shots yet?
Click to expand...

One thing of note... Depo-t is 7 or 8 times as likely to cause polycemetheia (thickening of the blood) and possible sleep apnea. They don't know why, but this has been supported in many clinical trials.

I'm on gel, and also am borderline polycemetheia. I will be going through vampire therapy (Giving blood every 6 to 8 weeks) in order to combat it.

After 12 months on gel, my total T went from 221 to 758 and my free T is just above max normal. Unfortunately it also messed up my lipids. Both Cholesterol and Trigs are high (but managable.)
 
klaatu62 said:
One thing of note... Depo-t is 7 or 8 times as likely to cause polycemetheia (thickening of the blood) and possible sleep apnea. They don't know why, but this has been supported in many clinical trials.

I'm on gel, and also am borderline polycemetheia. I will be going through vampire therapy (Giving blood every 6 to 8 weeks) in order to combat it.

After 12 months on gel, my total T went from 221 to 758 and my free T is just above max normal. Unfortunately it also messed up my lipids. Both Cholesterol and Trigs are high (but managable.)
Click to expand...


If you aren't already, get on 3 grams of fish oil per day to bring down the triglycerides.
 
Queation for you klaatu62

I am on AndroGel. Wondered how many pumps per day you used. Has it caused a rise or decrease in your blood pressure? Have you noticed change in testicle size or size of prostate gland? I am on 8 pumps per day. For the most part, my ED has gone away. Seems like I now have to pee more often, going to have a PSA level test next month. My LDL, HDL and trg. are all wrong now as well. Doc said statin drugs are in my future. I have been on the gel since April. Still have problem with not being able to lose fat around my middle. Any words of advice for an old man?
 
ratdog said:
I am on AndroGel. Wondered how many pumps per day you used. Has it caused a rise or decrease in your blood pressure? Have you noticed change in testicle size or size of prostate gland? I am on 8 pumps per day. For the most part, my ED has gone away. Seems like I now have to pee more often, going to have a PSA level test next month. My LDL, HDL and trg. are all wrong now as well. Doc said statin drugs are in my future. I have been on the gel since April. Still have problem with not being able to lose fat around my middle. Any words of advice for an old man?
Click to expand...

Being an older man (45) I can say that I had exactly the same problems. Add to it that my hematocrits are also moving upward, giving me flush face, incredible itching, and requireing that I give blood regularly in order to keep it under control.

8 pumps is equal to 10g per day which is the max recommended dose. I might suggest you taper down to 6 and see if you still have night/morning wood and how you feel. You should also be getting tested for much more than psa.

I get Total T, Free T, full CBC, Lipid and liver profile and PSA. They are all important to take at 3 and 6 months and if not under control every 3 months until they are. Then 6 months later and then annually.

I am going to try and figure the lipid issues by better eating habits. Lower fat, much lower cholesterol content, lots of fish oil (taking 2g/day at the moment) a liver support, dim-sum, milk thistle, and gaba before bed.

I lost weight initially (about 10 pounds) but as summer approached I stopped the gym. T will help you but it doesn't work unless you work too. You have to burn those calories somehow, and that unfortunately means cardio. I went to walking about 3 miles three nights a week with my GF (my off nights from the gym).

Androgel is a solution, but not the solution. Your BP will go down with good eating and excercise if it was good to start with. And you may have to seriously consider therapeutic phlebotomy (giving blood). The BP could be a sign of polycythemia (thickening blood).
 
ratdog said:
Thanks Guys for the input, all of my numbers on my blood tests my doc say are within the normal range except total testosterone, now around 268. She thinks my testicles are not producing enough T. or the extreme stress level in my life is suppressing it. What exactly is "hcg" and are most guys using it that are prescribed AndroGel? Would an endo doc know much about hcg. Sometimes I worry because she it a female her experience is limited in the area of male hrt. My only other choice around here is my GP. He had me start T shots about 7 years ago, I quit after 3 month because I thought I was "cured". That was a bad mistake. Now I am 47 lbs overweight, depressed and on Welbutrin 300mg, and have very little energy. I did get my next appointment moved up 2 weeks. Hope she will increase my dose at that point. Anyone know of a breakfast or energy bar that has no soy in it? Thanks
Click to expand...

You have to first make a decission about how much, if at all, you want to care for your overall health.

Little here and little there will not cut it.
May as well give up and live happy as much as your current situation allows.

Get educated on how to carry about your health by your own self.
There is no doctor who will do the heavy lifting for you.

You need resources to do testing and be able to get needed medicines and supplements.

You have to be in a position of General Contractor and just farm out individual projects to different specialty doctors.

You may want to take a look at my list of tests, post #44
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-2.html

Consider doing the whole list for starters.
Post results.

Loose weight, limit eating, do not eat 2 days/week.

Excessive cardio will not help much loosig weight, may damage joints if one is overweight.
Limiting food and weght lifting should work better.
---------------------------------------------------
As for testosterone supplementation.
Use Transdermal, if secondary goal is to raise DHT,
otherwise T-shots.
Shots have to be frequent, 2x/week, EOD, to be effective.
Do not get bambuzled ino using needle other than 31Ga 5/16" long for any shots, otherwise you will not be able to withstand them long term, and will loose good will at continuing your theraphy.

Goals in TRT
FreeT~300 using chart
DHT~top range or slightly over
E2-ultrasensitive~(10-30) guided by nightly erections
--------------------------------------------------
 
JanSz said:
You have to first make a decission about how much, if at all, you want to care for your overall health.

Little here and little there will not cut it.
May as well give up and live happy as much as your current situation allows.

Get educated on how to carry about your health by your own self.
There is no doctor who will do the heavy lifting for you.

You need resources to do testing and be able to get needed medicines and supplements.

You have to be in a position of General Contractor and just farm out individual projects to different specialty doctors.

You may want to take a look at my list of tests, post #44
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-2.html

Consider doing the whole list for starters.
Post results.

Loose weight, limit eating, do not eat 2 days/week.

Excessive cardio will not help much loosig weight, may damage joints if one is overweight.
Limiting food and weght lifting should work better.
---------------------------------------------------
As for testosterone supplementation.
Use Transdermal, if secondary goal is to raise DHT,
otherwise T-shots.
Shots have to be frequent, 2x/week, EOD, to be effective.
Do not get bambuzled ino using needle other than 31Ga 5/16" long for any shots, otherwise you will not be able to withstand them long term, and will loose good will at continuing your theraphy.

Goals in TRT
FreeT~300 using chart
DHT~top range or slightly over
E2-ultrasensitive~(10-30) guided by nightly erections
--------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...

I would adjust the TRT goals to:

Total T at midpoint or top third of range for your age group. Over 300 is a MINIMUM requirement.

Free T at least 50% of range but not above range

e2 below 30 but if higher, guide yourself by wood quality and overall well being. Consider DIM first to control, else there are some prescription meds that do this very well at a very low dose (.25g twice a week)

CBC in normal ranges across the board
Lipids in check

Shots vs Gel is still highly contentious. Some folks either don't absorb the gel well, or absorb it less over time. However there is an 8 times greater chance (clinically documented) of contracting polycemethia using the shots. If you have even mild sleep apnea, gel is safer.

Consider joining the yahoo group hypogonadism2 for some pretty good support. There are folks with up to 15 years of experience in using, and all types. Gel, Creams, Cypro, Pellets, patches...
 
klaatu62 said:
I would adjust the TRT goals to:

Total T at midpoint or top third of range for your age group. Over 300 is a MINIMUM requirement.

Free T at least 50% of range but not above range

e2 below 30 but if higher, guide yourself by wood quality and overall well being. Consider DIM first to control, else there are some prescription meds that do this very well at a very low dose (.25g twice a week)

CBC in normal ranges across the board
Lipids in check

Shots vs Gel is still highly contentious. Some folks either don't absorb the gel well, or absorb it less over time. However there is an 8 times greater chance (clinically documented) of contracting polycemethia using the shots. If you have even mild sleep apnea, gel is safer.

Consider joining the yahoo group hypogonadism2 for some pretty good support. There are folks with up to 15 years of experience in using, and all types. Gel, Creams, Cypro, Pellets, patches...
Click to expand...
Age is not a factor for someone already on TRT.
.
.
 
JanSz said:
Age is not a factor for someone already on TRT.
.
.
Click to expand...

If you say so, but having spent 10 years designing and implementing medical lab systems, I can tell you that lab T level normals shift with age.

Being on TRT for a while now, I would also consider that above 300 is not quite the goal I would shoot for. My rates changed from 221 to 758. My age group range was something like 450 to 850. In my case I would consider anything over 550 to be good.

The goal of TRT is to get NORMAL, (or as close as you can to it) not just make the grade. It is also to balance all of the various components of the endocrine system. And this balance shifts with age.

Maybe the question is are you doing this for primary Hypo, Secondary Hypo, Training purposes, or for anti aging? These may well change what you see as your goals.
 
klaatu62 said:
If you say so, but having spent 10 years designing and implementing medical lab systems, I can tell you that lab T level normals shift with age.

Being on TRT for a while now, I would also consider that above 300 is not quite the goal I would shoot for. My rates changed from 221 to 758. My age group range was something like 450 to 850. In my case I would consider anything over 550 to be good.

The goal of TRT is to get NORMAL, (or as close as you can to it) not just make the grade. It is also to balance all of the various components of the endocrine system. And this balance shifts with age.

Maybe the question is are you doing this for primary Hypo, Secondary Hypo, Training purposes, or for anti aging? These may well change what you see as your goals.
Click to expand...

You must have mis-read what I posted.
I posted:
FreeT~300 using chart

Others may consider this a rather high level.
-------------------------------
TotalTestosterone level that would be required to achieve
FreeT~300 using chart
depends heavily on individual's SHBG and somewhat on Albumin levels.
------------------------------
The chart I am refering to is shown on my post #41
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-2.html

Calculator can also be used, but may present opportunity for mistake due to varying units.
 
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