Neoborn's Formestane / EForm FAQ...
- Thread starter neoborn
- Start date
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Eform is 4oz, thus it's 120ml of carrier. It contains 3gr of Form, so 3000mg/120ml = 25mg/ml.
metroba
Legend
Thank you for clearing that up.
beallio
Member
Thanks for clearing that up. If the calculations are correct then, i squirt of e-form is .8ml.
DR.D
Well-known member
Well there are plenty of fellas here that give great advice and have valid opinions, but thanks for saying so.
I don't believe it's that inherently suppressive, just the opposite actually, perhaps due to it's combined aromatase and 5a-reductase inhibiting properties? BUT, at extremely high doses I think there is probably a point of inflection where it would be.
beallio
Member
Well there are plenty of fellas here that give great advice and have valid opinions, but thanks for saying so.
I don't believe it's that inherently suppressive, just the opposite actually, perhaps due to it's combined aromatase and 5a-reductase inhibiting properties? BUT, at extremely high doses I think there is probably a point of inflection where it would be.
In your opinion what would this high dose be?
celc5
Well-known member
So doc, tell me if I'm misunderstanding...
Feel free to push the dosage ON cycle for increased anabolic effect. Reason being, you are already prepared to combat anything suppressive in post cycle.
If you're bridging into post cycle, or running strictly post cycle, keep your dosages moderate/reasonable. That way, you'll still have AI effect without further suppression.
Comments Dr.Formestane? :lol:
To beallio, I'd say stock up and then just try it out. I personally find that ramping the dosage every other day has worked for me to assess tolerance. The more experienced you are with ph/ps/aas, the trend seems to go above the 200mg/day. Less experienced like me, I'll stay around 140mg/day next time if using strictly on cycle and I'll be loving every second of it :head:
Feel free to push the dosage ON cycle for increased anabolic effect. Reason being, you are already prepared to combat anything suppressive in post cycle.
If you're bridging into post cycle, or running strictly post cycle, keep your dosages moderate/reasonable. That way, you'll still have AI effect without further suppression.
Comments Dr.Formestane? :lol:
To beallio, I'd say stock up and then just try it out. I personally find that ramping the dosage every other day has worked for me to assess tolerance. The more experienced you are with ph/ps/aas, the trend seems to go above the 200mg/day. Less experienced like me, I'll stay around 140mg/day next time if using strictly on cycle and I'll be loving every second of it :head:
DR.D
Well-known member
I don't know, I've never gotten silly with it, but if approximately 15% of it converts to 4-OH-T, and that metabolite is roughly 25% as androgenic as T itself, and you absorb maybe 20% of an oral dose intact, it would require at least a gram a day before suppression was even a consideration I'd guess. I have never employed it like that at high doses so I'm just not sure.
DR.D
Well-known member
beallio
Member
Currently I'm pulsing with epi, so every other day is 120mg in the morn and another 120mg at night. To be honest I don't know if I really notice anything. I don't know if this is due to the pulse, epi, some combination thereof, or another factor I haven't taken into consideration.
I really don't get the rush that most experience either. Sometimes I get it on my chest, but hardly ever on the back of my knees (which is typically pretty sensitive for me). I believe there to be a slight tightening effect in the chest, but nothing too pronounced as of yet. BTW, I've been on this now for approx. a week. Too soon for it too kick in?
Maybe it's the fact I'm currently around 265...any ideas, suggestions, input?
datBtrue
Well-known member
Formestane increases the potency & may decrease the side-effects of Nolva
A study published in the Journal DRUG METABOLISM AND DISPOSITION, Vol. 27, Issue 3, 389-394, March 1999, indicates that Formestane increases the potency & may decrease the side-effects of Nolva (possibly eliminate the toxicity?).
Full Study at: Invalid Link Removed
A study published in the Journal DRUG METABOLISM AND DISPOSITION, Vol. 27, Issue 3, 389-394, March 1999, indicates that Formestane increases the potency & may decrease the side-effects of Nolva (possibly eliminate the toxicity?).
The Aromatase Inactivator 4-Hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OH-A) Inhibits Tamoxifen Metabolism by Rat Hepatic Cytochrome P-450 3A: Potential for Drug-Drug Interaction of Tamoxifen and 4-OH-A in Combined Anti-Breast Cancer Therapy
Shangara S. Dehal, Angela M. H. Brodie, and David Kupfer
Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Toxicology, University of Massachusetts Medical Center, Worcester, Massachusetts (S.S.D., D.K.) and Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, University of Maryland at Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland (A.M.H.B).
Abstract
Tamoxifen (tam), an anti-breast cancer agent, is metabolized into tam-N-oxide by the hepatic flavin-containing monooxygenase and into N-desmethyl- and 4-hydroxy-tam by cytochrome P-450s (CYPs). Additionally, tam is metabolically activated by hepatic CYP3A, forming a reactive intermediate that binds covalently to proteins. Tam and 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OH-A) are currently used to treat breast cancer, and it has been contemplated that 4-OH-A be given concurrently with tam to contravene potential tumor resistance to tam. Because alterations in tam metabolism may influence its therapeutic efficacy, the effect of 4-OH-A on tam metabolism was examined. Incubation of tam with liver microsomes from phenobarbital-treated rats, in the presence of 4-OH-A (10-100 µM), resulted in marked inhibition of tam-N-demethylation and tam covalent binding and in decreased tam-N-oxide accumulation; however, there was no inhibition of the formation of 4-hydroxy-tam and of 3,4-dihydroxytamoxifen. These findings indicate that 4-OH-A inhibits CYP3A, but not P-450(s) that catalyze tam 4-hydroxylation. The diminished tam-N-oxide accumulation could be due to decreased N-oxide formation and/or due to increased N-oxide reduction. Incubation of tam-N-oxide with liver microsomes containing heat-inactivated flavin-containing monooxygenase demonstrated that 4-OH-A increases the accumulation of tam, possibly by diminishing its P-450-mediated metabolism. Kinetic studies indicate that 4-OH-A is a competitive inhibitor of CYP3A, but not a time-dependent inactivator. Consequently, the concurrent treatment of tam and 4-OH-A may result in increased tam half-life and thus could potentiate the therapeutic efficacy of tam and diminish the potential side effects of tam by inhibiting its covalent binding to proteins and possibly to DNA.
Shangara S. Dehal, Angela M. H. Brodie, and David Kupfer
Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Toxicology, University of Massachusetts Medical Center, Worcester, Massachusetts (S.S.D., D.K.) and Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, University of Maryland at Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland (A.M.H.B).
Abstract
Tamoxifen (tam), an anti-breast cancer agent, is metabolized into tam-N-oxide by the hepatic flavin-containing monooxygenase and into N-desmethyl- and 4-hydroxy-tam by cytochrome P-450s (CYPs). Additionally, tam is metabolically activated by hepatic CYP3A, forming a reactive intermediate that binds covalently to proteins. Tam and 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OH-A) are currently used to treat breast cancer, and it has been contemplated that 4-OH-A be given concurrently with tam to contravene potential tumor resistance to tam. Because alterations in tam metabolism may influence its therapeutic efficacy, the effect of 4-OH-A on tam metabolism was examined. Incubation of tam with liver microsomes from phenobarbital-treated rats, in the presence of 4-OH-A (10-100 µM), resulted in marked inhibition of tam-N-demethylation and tam covalent binding and in decreased tam-N-oxide accumulation; however, there was no inhibition of the formation of 4-hydroxy-tam and of 3,4-dihydroxytamoxifen. These findings indicate that 4-OH-A inhibits CYP3A, but not P-450(s) that catalyze tam 4-hydroxylation. The diminished tam-N-oxide accumulation could be due to decreased N-oxide formation and/or due to increased N-oxide reduction. Incubation of tam-N-oxide with liver microsomes containing heat-inactivated flavin-containing monooxygenase demonstrated that 4-OH-A increases the accumulation of tam, possibly by diminishing its P-450-mediated metabolism. Kinetic studies indicate that 4-OH-A is a competitive inhibitor of CYP3A, but not a time-dependent inactivator. Consequently, the concurrent treatment of tam and 4-OH-A may result in increased tam half-life and thus could potentiate the therapeutic efficacy of tam and diminish the potential side effects of tam by inhibiting its covalent binding to proteins and possibly to DNA.
Full Study at: Invalid Link Removed
Leggo my Ego
Well-known member
Very interesting:think:
skywalker89
New member
Epistane and Formestane stack question
rem
rem
neoborn
Well-known member
LOL great post. I am sure you will be remembered by people for this ....and when you need help
, but I know what you mean. I enjoy getting D's input on stuff.Much Love,
Neoborn
neoborn
Well-known member
I believe that Epistane and Form would be wonderful. Dr.D did mention this before over at IBE in Dutchmans post in the Epistane section. I am sure a dose from 100 - 240mg a day would be fine. I like it balls to the walls but that's just me.
Much Love,
Neoborn
celc5
Well-known member
If you haven't run any cycles, I recommend running formestane solo with some staple supplements such as creatine, etc etc. Ramp the dosage up and then taper off.
You'll find your "sweet spot" so to speak during this solo run. Check out Dutchman's thread on the IBE site where DR.D explains formestane strategies IN DEPTH.
Once you have your feel for form dosages, you can run it on cycle, bridged into post cycle and used as your AI, or strictly as your AI in post cycle.
celc5
Well-known member
HE11 YA!!! throw it in the mix right now!
thebigt
Legend
you have'nt been paying attention. formestane is very versatile and can be used in lots of combinations or solo. i had great results using e-form/activate. but it is also exceptional combined with steriods or ph's.
james1
Banned
yea but i just turned 18 should i be messing with my estrogen levels already?
celc5
Well-known member
u know the answer to that... formestane has a prohormone component as well.
james1
Banned
yea, thanks if it werent for this whole college thing i wouldnt be rushing to put on muscle, its just alot of pressure
DR.D
Well-known member
You just can't rush it friend. I still wasn't able to really put on muscle till about 22, just after college. I am convinced that years of training and age play a major role, muscle memory as it is commonly called. Just keep working hard and eating well, it'll pay off in time.
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Grab a sauce pan, fill it up to where the water comes about halfway up the glass bottle of form. Heat to a soft boil(medium to medium/high heat dial), and place bottle in the sauce pan. Let sit for 5-10min and then shake the mixture up, then placing bottle back into the pan, turn the heat down to a soft simmer(medium/low heat) and let sit for an additional 30-40min(possible an hour) shaking every 10min or so. Should get it all into solution if the carrier isn't saturated(and since it's eform I wouldn't think that's the case).:thumbsup:
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
How right you are my friend. I've been in the game since my teens, and only the past year or so have gotten to where I make some quality gains with the same tweaks in my nutrition.
skywalker89
New member
Form dose, higher mg at night
rem
rem
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Cortisol peaks most in the morning shortly after wakeup call(about 30min-1hr), and after extrenous excersise of course. As for the estrogen, I belieave that once aromatase is deactivate it stays deactivated for quit some time so the higher dosage in the evening wouldn't really make that much of a difference.
DR.D
Well-known member
Great info P! You are an excellent resource here (and elsewhere) and have been ever since I can remember.
Also, cortisol peaks again in the early afternoon. If you've ever had a cold with fever, you've probably noticed this before. You feel like crap when you wake up in the morning sick, but you tough it out and go to work anyway. You start feeling much better during the day. The fever soon breaks and you're glad you decided to go to work, this isn't so bad! Then after lunch (~ 3pm) the fever returns hard and you realize you're not as well as you'd hoped. That's your afternoon cortisol surge making itself very obvious under those conditions. It's almost as high as the morning surge.
About aromatase, test levels peak in the early morn well before 6am with most guys, so anywhere from then to several hours after then is when subsequent estrogen formation would spike. This is mainly the justification why traditional SERMs are taken at night, because they reach peak blood levels about 5 hrs after ingestion. That's just about right to correspond with your AM estrogen peak and when you'd need the most coverage. With an AI, the effect is protracted like P said so it's not as crucial. A morning dose might actually make more since than an evening dose with all pharmakinetics considered, or it might not really matter too much either way.
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Good info on the afternoon surge. Now I know why my sick days are always like a slippery slope.
skywalker89
New member
rem
celc5
Well-known member
That seems to be "stock" conclusion sentence to every single discussion that I've been reading lately :lol:
Really? :think:
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
If your still getting granules in the carrier it might already be over-saturated(how many grams did you put in). Try adding in more carrier if you have any, or throwing in a marble ball, heat, and shakeitlikeapolaroid picture.
Eyedropper method is better for accuracy anyways if you have to go that route.:thumbsup:
beallio
Member
It's E-form. First bottle was fine - not one problem. Second bottle, not so much.
I believe it's just settling on the bottom. Is this a common occurance for most?
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Then that's 3grams per 4oz(should go into solution). The settling is pretty common if not heated and mixed properly. Try placing the contents in a glass jar and heating it on a hot plate or a pan fill to about half the height of the glass. This should allow you to get it superheated and dissolve all the contents without worry of melting the eform bottle.
skywalker89
New member
rem
beallio
Member
I tried the heating solution, looked like it was working at first, but once cooled down it returned to its previous state. What's the minimum amount of time for the solution to mix?
Leggo my Ego
Well-known member
nevermind
DR.D
Well-known member
Tell me about it Celc! It seems the future just isn't as clear these days (or maybe there's just too many lawyers. lol)
Seriously though, there are many mysteries and sometimes it's hard to say exactly how or why something works. Luckily, it's usually not necessary to know all the hows and why for it to still work! As long as you can find an optimal system of use, that's what gets results and minimizes sides.
We can still ponder the mysteries of the universe in our spare time, of course, when we aren't at the gym.
celc5
Well-known member
Tell me about it Celc! It seems the future just isn't as clear these days (or maybe there's just too many lawyers. lol)
Seriously though, there are many mysteries and sometimes it's hard to say exactly how or why something works. Luckily, it's usually not necessary to know all the hows and why for it to still work! As long as you can find an optimal system of use, that's what gets results and minimizes sides.
We can still ponder the mysteries of the universe in our spare time, of course, when we aren't at the gym.
Absolutely agree. On occasion, I feel like I go in circles. The issue tends to be that I make things much more complicated than they need to be.
I believe you understood my intention doc... but just to be sure for those who didn't catch the whole convo, I was making light of my own confusion and it was in no way a shot Dr.D's response :cheers:
datBtrue
Well-known member
No...the DermaBolics line of transdermals is not sold by Nutraplanet.
DR.D
Well-known member
Of course I did my friend, it made me chuckle too! Nonetheless, PLEASE feel free to admonish when necessary. It's always appreciated on this end as long as it's sincere.
Just like you, I ask way too many questions and constantly seek truth, so it's all good in the end.
Al Shades
Member
Will it ever be?
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Sounds like your talking about the phase seperation that the carrier undergoes. When settled it gets a clear seperation betweem the lipophilic and hydrophilic components of the carrier, with the hormone contained in the lipophilic portion(bottom). If that's the case then your good, just get an eye/baby dropper and dose away. As long it's not feeling like your rubbing a bowl of grits on your chest it's fine.:thumbsup:
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
Seeing as how its a competing supplement stores in-house product, I would have to say no.