any REAL vasodilator supps?
- 01-26-2012, 05:31 PM
- 01-26-2012, 05:38 PM
This is quite common with compounds to be honest. Look at something like Beta Alanine and Carnosine. Which is best to take to increase Carnosine levels? Beta Alanine. Carnosine on its own barely(if at all) raises plasma Carnosine levels, however Beta Alanine does it quite effectively.
Arginine works in a similar fashion in that simply eating more arginine does NOT increase arginine levels in our body. The arginine that is digested orally is broken down into smaller subfractions from there(one of which is agmatine sulfate, however at a low rate)...
In this above image, you'll see that the "arginase enzyme" is responsible for this "phenomenon".
So at the end of the day, if you want to use arginine to boost NO, I'm sorry but you'll have to inject it...and even then most studies showing an increase in true NO from injected arginine come about with 30g+ IV doses.
- 01-26-2012, 05:43 PM
Didn't mean to turn this into a quiz. The answer is in the figure you just posted. Arginine doesn't stay in "your belly". It makes it into the blood and the muscles, but arginase works faster than eNOS. That's why pharm companies are looking to inhibit arginase. It's not a matter of no arginine. Just simply two enzymes competing for the same substrate.***PES Representative***
01-26-2012, 05:46 PM
01-26-2012, 06:59 PM
J Nutrigenet Nutrigenomics. 2011;4(2):90-8. Epub 2011 May 28.
To give or not to give? Lessons from the arginine paradox.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Milan, Milan, Italy. fsdioguardi @ gmail.com
Arginine is one of the 20 amino acids (AA) found in proteins and synthesized by human cells. However, arginine is also the substrate for a series of reactions leading to the synthesis of other AA and is an obligatory substrate for two enzymes with diverging actions, arginases and nitric oxide synthases (NOS), giving origin to urea and NO, respectively. NO is a very potent vasodilator when produced by endothelial NOS (eNOS). The 'arginine paradox' is the fact that, despite intracellular physiological concentration of arginine being several hundred micromoles per liter, far exceeding the ∼5 μM K(M) of eNOS, the acute provision of exogenous arginine still increases NO production. Clinically, an additional paradox is that the largest controlled study on chronic oral arginine supplementation in patients after myocardial infarction had to be interrupted for excess mortality in treated patients. Expression and activity of arginases, which produce urea and divert arginine from NOS, are positively related to exogenous arginine supplementation. Therefore, the more arginine is introduced, the more it is destroyed, eventually leading to impaired NO production. In this review, conditions influencing the low arginine concentrations found in plasma will be reviewed, revising the paradigm that simple replenishment of what is lacking will always produce beneficial consequences.
Biochem J. 1998 Nov 15;336 ( Pt 1):1-17.
Arginine metabolism: nitric oxide and beyond.
Wu G, Morris SM Jr.
Departments of Animal Science, Medical Physiology, and Veterinary Anatomy and Public Health, and Faculty of Nutrition, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843, USA. firstname.lastname@example.org
Arginine is one of the most versatile amino acids in animal cells, serving as a precursor for the synthesis not only of proteins but also of nitric oxide, urea, polyamines, proline, glutamate, creatine and agmatine. Of the enzymes that catalyse rate-controlling steps in arginine synthesis and catabolism, argininosuccinate synthase, the two arginase isoenzymes, the three nitric oxide synthase isoenzymes and arginine decarboxylase have been recognized in recent years as key factors in regulating newly identified aspects of arginine metabolism. In particular, changes in the activities of argininosuccinate synthase, the arginases, the inducible isoenzyme of nitric oxide synthase and also cationic amino acid transporters play major roles in determining the metabolic fates of arginine in health and disease, and recent studies have identified complex patterns of interaction among these enzymes. There is growing interest in the potential roles of the arginase isoenzymes as regulators of the synthesis of nitric oxide, polyamines, proline and glutamate. Physiological roles and relationships between the pathways of arginine synthesis and catabolism in vivo are complex and difficult to analyse, owing to compartmentalized expression of various enzymes at both organ (e.g. liver, small intestine and kidney) and subcellular (cytosol and mitochondria) levels, as well as to changes in expression during development and in response to diet, hormones and cytokines. The ongoing development of new cell lines and animal models using cDNA clones and genes for key arginine metabolic enzymes will provide new approaches more clearly elucidating the physiological roles of these enzymes.
01-26-2012, 07:02 PM
01-26-2012, 07:03 PM
01-26-2012, 07:26 PM
I'm not going to waste my time reading a full study when the abstract doesn't mention ANYTHING about what I asked you to post up.
Let me know when you're ready for a DISCUSSION, and not a childhood playground fight.
01-26-2012, 08:11 PM
So like....what should the OP take to boost nitric oxide levels? I'm sure it was mentioned in here somewhere. I hate reading though.
01-26-2012, 08:46 PM
Ingredients that ACTUALLY increase NO:
(so...basically everything HemaVol includes except GPLC)
Oh, and Arginine when you inject it.
01-26-2012, 08:51 PM
01-26-2012, 10:00 PM
01-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Ok.... silly question.... what if I mix arginine powder into a hot oil to sterilize it, could I safely inject it??? May sound dumb,,, but why not ask the question
01-26-2012, 10:26 PM
I'm already injecting test, hcg, and b-12..... why not arginine? Lol
01-26-2012, 10:28 PM
i guess just going the hemavol route would be my best bet to cover all bases.... however, it says not to use more than 4 times a week, am i wrong in assuming i may miss my 2nd target goal of lower bp (through vasodilation) as i would probably need something that i can take everyday?
i just figure if it does help with vasodilation and improve circulation, it wouldnt be in my system long enough to keep these effects if im having to take it every other day. am i wrong in this? (i realize there may not be a definite answer to this as most people probably dont experiment with it for its blood pressure lowering abilities, haha)
01-26-2012, 10:31 PM
01-26-2012, 10:44 PM
Wat doses on all?Originally Posted by VaughnTrue
01-26-2012, 10:47 PM
Hahaha flex I loled on that one..... But totally agree. And wish I would just get the answer lolOriginally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM
01-26-2012, 10:50 PM
No.......... it is possible through chemistry..... But you dont have the supllies or the knowledge.... Sry.... No offense.... Just take insulinOriginally Posted by grngoloco
01-26-2012, 11:06 PM
Is this enzyme just ridiculously fast and efficient at the conversion of arginine to ornothine and urea relative to eNOS?
I feel like you've proposed a mechanism that contains multiple reactions, but jumped over the details regarding relative rates (e.g. selectivities).
I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the subject, this post simply does not present enough information to support you're claim. I am mainly interested in simply in scientific information being presented in a scientific manner.
Athletic Xtreme Rep
Ask me about the Athletic Xtreme Product Line
01-26-2012, 11:43 PM
Seriously,,, I take argininernithine in a 2:1 ratio for my blood pressure and IT WORKS!! try it yourself,,, if it doesn't work it won't cost you near as much as most other supplements people are talking aboutOriginally Posted by bill86
01-27-2012, 01:37 AM
10000 posts!? U gota be kidding me lolOriginally Posted by thesinner
01-27-2012, 08:27 AM
I was taking double dose arginine along with whatever was in my preworkouts, doing this for about a week, then one day I had the squirts seriously all day. At least 5 times a day. After doing some research I decided to stop arginine, and about a week later I was "normal" again. Arginine was the only thing removed.Originally Posted by grngoloco
Your body can be poisoned with too much basically. It can reach "toxic levels" and symptoms such as mine are a possibility.
01-27-2012, 09:28 AM
Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
01-27-2012, 09:55 AM
01-27-2012, 10:33 AM
01-27-2012, 10:54 AM
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
01-27-2012, 10:58 AM
What I am saying is that the production of nitric oxide does not occur in our stomachs, and by the time arginine is digested/absorbed, it is no longer arginine...therefor it will not increase NO.
Again, compare this to Beta Alanaine & Carnosine...which would YOU take to boost Carnosine levels?
Yes, I forgot about Nitrates.
01-27-2012, 11:00 AM
Why would I read an entire paper if the abstract doesn't begin to touch on the specific topic on hand?
I can post a tone of abstracts and full studies all day long, yet it doesn't mean they'll have anything to do with the conversation.
01-27-2012, 11:03 AM
I guess I'll throw away my Hema Vol and just take bulk AAKG.
On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...
01-27-2012, 11:23 AM
You can get the squirts from vitamin c... that doesn't equate with being "poisoned" it just means you weren't used to it,,, you have to raise your dosage gradually ..... also it should be taken alone,, it competes for receptors and any that passes through without being absorbed adds to the squirtsOriginally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM
01-27-2012, 11:34 AM
01-27-2012, 11:43 AM
01-27-2012, 11:44 AM
01-27-2012, 11:47 AM
Lol..... it's @ two teaspoons mixed with a glass of water and some pedialyte powder..... considering the average serious body builder takes 20+ pills a day.... that's nothing!!Originally Posted by rms80
01-27-2012, 01:46 PM
Was doing AAKG for many years at fairly high dosage (10 grams) but pumps wouldn't last long.... maybe a couple of hours at most then the pumps went away.
For me the best NO boosters are Agmatine, GPLC, and Creatine Nitrate. You can get the bulk agmatine from Muscle Feast. Was using Primordial's GPLC for a long time (which was great) but now they've discontinued it You can PrimaForce which is good but not as good of a value.
For a great combo product you can do APS's Nitrozine which has GPLC and Agmatine... sick pumps all day.
01-27-2012, 02:19 PM
Athletic Xtreme Team REPhttp://www.AthleticX.net/
AXHOLE BY NATURE
01-27-2012, 04:22 PM
01-27-2012, 04:30 PM
01-27-2012, 04:54 PM
I've personally compared Agmatine, Citulline Malate, and GLPC together with a Nitrate (Yoked) and, although both worked extremely well, the nitrate worked slightly better for me. But Agmatine and Yoked together-- Ha!
The cool thing about these supps is they not only make you look more pumped, but they dramatically increase energy and cardio abilities. I'm old and I can get 15.5 - 16 mets out of my cycling ablities when I go all out for 30 minutes. Ten mets is good shape for a 45 year old, and higher is better. And these supps do make a big difference.
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