any REAL vasodilator supps?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Hello my old nemesis lol. How can you say arginine does not induce vasodilation? Vasodilation via arginine is pretty much the only reason we have eNOS. I would agree that many preparations of arginine would upset your stomach by the time it was beneficial, but it will induce vasodilation.
    Ok, context here. Supplemental, oral arginine in reasonable doses does not induce vasodilation. Obviously one of arginine's primary roles in the body is to serve as a NO precursor, but again: context. Anyway, I won't continue this debate, because you and I could go on forever about this, and it's been done before . How's your research coming along?

    Quote Originally Posted by grngoloco View Post
    I'm always up for real discussions ... these sites frustrate me when people say someone is wrong without backing it up
    It's because I have backed it up in countless threads on various boards. The information is out there, and many of the texts are free and do not require a subscription.


  2. The upset stomach can be avoided by gradually increasing dosage up to 20g a day
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  3. As with any supplement,,, it won't work if you don't take enough,,,, or if not taken in the proper synergistic balance with other nutrients....which is why multiple sources of info need to be cross referenced

  4. Go to google scholar,,, it is free and has a larger majority of actual research articles minus the commercialization of marketing

  5. I understand that and I'm pro-arginine to the point that I agree there are other options that work too, but don't think it is fair to say that arginine does not induce vasodilation at all. The problem, in my opinion, is that many products don't do it correctly and you get GI problems.

    Cooper is the real deal though and he will back it up. In the future though, could you please at least summarize the studies that you are using? Nobody has the time to click on every site you post up.

    Quote Originally Posted by grngoloco View Post
    I'm always up for real discussions ... these sites frustrate me when people say someone is wrong without backing it up
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com
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  6. Indeed and I was just saying hi Things are going well. Doing more downstream stuff after NO activates sGC. PDE inhibitors and that fun stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Ok, context here. Supplemental, oral arginine in reasonable doses does not induce vasodilation. Obviously one of arginine's primary roles in the body is to serve as a NO precursor, but again: context. Anyway, I won't continue this debate, because you and I could go on forever about this, and it's been done before . How's your research coming along?



    It's because I have backed it up in countless threads on various boards. The information is out there, and many of the texts are free and do not require a subscription.
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Indeed and I was just saying hi Things are going well. Doing more downstream stuff after NO activates sGC. PDE inhibitors and that fun stuff.
    Awesome my friend, and glad to see you're with PES. Definitely let me know when the research is available online, I'd love to see what you've been working on

  8. Cool deal..... will do.... I do love to debate and always look for more info,,, and will absolutely admit when it turns out I am wrong.... two major reasons arginine doesn't work for people is, like cooper said, it has poor absorption requiring high dosages and two,,, it needs to be taken alone on an empty stomach so it doesn't need to compete for receptors ..... anyway guys,,, I'm off to the gym...... I'd love to pick your brains about aas,,, they're new to me and right now I'm doing test cyp and adex with hcg and injectable b12 in the mail on it's way ......

  9. Fyi, my arginine supplementation is as follows:
    20g arginine powder
    10g ornithine powder
    5g lcar
    5g creatine
    1 single pack pedialyte powder
    Mixed with water and drank on an empty stomach first thing in the morning ...
    I wait 30 minutes then drink a protein shake and eat breakfast

  10. Who here has used HemaVol?


    It is hands down the highest praised pump/vasodilator.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  11. Quote Originally Posted by monstermash View Post

    I think he was just kidding but if not, i wouldn't do mix viagra w/ CN either. Sounds like a brew for a massive headache, fainting spell or in fl3x's case FACE EXPLOSION.
    ..Yes and possibly death due to an unsafe drop in blood pressure. The commercials even warn you about not taking nitrates with viagra. very dangerous.

    And besides most guys under the age of 70 don't have prescriptions for V or C anyway so not sure how this would be beneficial to most.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Who here has used HemaVol?


    It is hands down the highest praised pump/vasodilator.
    My lemons dropped!!!
    Hybrid Performance Nutrition
    GetHybrid.net
    U.S. ARMY MP(CID)

  13. out of curiosity, how do you dose your arginine? i know you said 20g, but do you do 2 servings of 10, 4 of 5, etc?

    thanks!

  14. Quote Originally Posted by bill86
    out of curiosity, how do you dose your arginine? i know you said 20g, but do you do 2 servings of 10, 4 of 5, etc?

    thanks!
    I buy the bulk powder and do all 20g in one dose in the regimine I mentioned above ... can't remenber, ,, think it's @ two teaspoons

  15. Arginine does not increase NO...but does help produce pumps.


    Agmatine + Cit Malate + Norvaline + GMS + Alpha-GPC + Vitamin C + Rutacaerpine + Epimedium = win.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  16. I don't know how your body works, but every other animal on the planet produces NO from arginine through one of three enzymes (nNOS, eNOS, and iNOS).

    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Arginine does not increase NO...but does help produce pumps.


    Agmatine + Cit Malate + Norvaline + GMS + Alpha-GPC + Vitamin C + Rutacaerpine + Epimedium = win.
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I don't know how your body works, but every other animal on the planet produces NO from arginine through one of three enzymes (nNOS, eNOS, and iNOS).
    I don't know how your body works, however orally ingested Arginine does not make it to your blood stream where NO is actually created.

    This is why Citrulline Malate increased NO, in that it converts to Arginine in your blood...which then raises no.



    Arginine is a great NO booster if you're injecting it...are you injecting yours?
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  18. 1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
    Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
    No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.

    Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.


    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009 Aug;19(4):355-65.
    Bescós R, Gonzalez-Haro C, Pujol P, Drobnic F, Alonso E, Santolaria ML, Ruiz O, Esteve M, Galilea P.
    Effects of dietary L-arginine intake on cardiorespiratory and metabolic adaptation in athletes.

    To assess the effect of diet enrichment with L-arginine or supplementation at high doses on physiological adaptation during exercise, 9 athletes followed 3 different diets, each over 3 consecutive days, with a wash-out period of 4 d between training sessions: control diet (CD), 5.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine; Diet 1 (rich in L-arginine food), 9.0 +/- 1.1 g/d of L-arginine; and Diet 2 (the same as CD but including an oral supplement of 15 g/d), 20.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine. Plasma nitrate levels of each participant were determined on the day after each treatment. Participants performed a submaximal treadmill test (initial speed 10-11 km/hr, work increments 1 km/hr every 4 min until 85-90% VO2max, and passive recovery periods of 2 min). Oxygen uptake and heart rate were monitored throughout the test. Blood lactate concentration ([La-]b) was determined at the end of each stage. Repeated-measures ANOVA and paired Student's t tests were used to compare the various physiological parameters between diets. The level of significance was set at p < .05. [La-]b showed a significant effect at the 5-min time point between CD and Diet 2 (CD 3.0 +/- 0.5 mM, Diet 2 2.5 +/- 0.5 mM, p = .03), but this tendency was not found at higher exercise intensities. No significant differences were observed in any of the cardiorespiratory or plasma nitrate levels. In conclusion, dietary L-arginine intake on the days preceding the test does not improve physiological parameters during exercise.


    Circulation. 2007 Jul 10;116(2):188-95. Epub 2007 Jun 25.
    Wilson AM, Harada R, Nair N, Balasubramanian N, Cooke JP.
    L-arginine supplementation in peripheral arterial disease: no benefit and possible harm.

    BACKGROUND: L-arginine is the precursor of endothelium-derived nitric oxide, an endogenous vasodilator. L-arginine supplementation improves vascular reactivity and functional capacity in peripheral arterial disease (PAD) in small, short-term studies. We aimed to determine the effects of long-term administration of L-arginine on vascular reactivity and functional capacity in patients with PAD. METHODS AND RESULTS: The Nitric Oxide in Peripheral Arterial Insufficiency (NO-PAIN) study was a randomized clinical trial of oral L-arginine (3 g/d) versus placebo for 6 months in 133 subjects with intermittent claudication due to PAD in a single-center setting. The primary end point was the change at 6 months in the absolute claudication distance as assessed by the Skinner-Gardner treadmill protocol. L-arginine supplementation significantly increased plasma L-arginine levels. However, measures of nitric oxide availability (including flow-mediated vasodilation, vascular compliance, plasma and urinary nitrogen oxides, and plasma citrulline formation) were reduced or not improved compared with placebo. Although absolute claudication distance improved in both L-arginine- and placebo-treated patients, the improvement in the L-arginine-treated group was significantly less than that in the placebo group (28.3% versus 11.5%; P=0.024). CONCLUSIONS: In patients with PAD, long-term administration of L-arginine does not increase nitric oxide synthesis or improve vascular reactivity. Furthermore, the expected placebo effect observed in studies of functional capacity was attenuated in the L-arginine-treated group. As opposed to its short-term administration, long-term administration of L-arginine is not useful in patients with intermittent claudication and PAD.


    I agree that Arginine is the precursor to NO...however it's not when it's in your belly.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  19. That is not what you said the first time. Just trying to keep comments honest and accurate. All of these other supps are ways of getting arginine to convert to NO, so to make a general statement that "Arginine does not increase NO" is not correct when arginine is the common denominator. Neither is saying that orally ingested arginine does not make it into the blood stream. You're suggesting that none at all does when citrulline mallate simply has better bioavailability.

    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    I don't know how your body works, however orally ingested Arginine does not make it to your blood stream where NO is actually created.

    This is why Citrulline Malate increased NO, in that it converts to Arginine in your blood...which then raises no.



    Arginine is a great NO booster if you're injecting it...are you injecting yours?
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    That is not what you said the first time. Just trying to keep comments honest and accurate. All of these other supps are ways of getting arginine to convert to NO, so to make a general statement that "Arginine does not increase NO" is not correct when arginine is the common denominator. Neither is saying that orally ingested arginine does not make it into the blood stream. You're suggesting that none at all does when citrulline mallate simply has better bioavailability.
    No...the way you read something and the way I wrote it are two different things.


    This thread is talking about dietary supplements(thus things that must be ingested orally). If Arginine comes up in the conversation, it is already assumed people are referring to it as a supplement than can boost NO through oral supplementation.

    We both know this to not be the case.

    Citrulline Malate doesn't have "better absorption", its actually able to increase Arginine levels...but Arginine cant!
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  21. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post

    Citrulline Malate doesn't have "better absorption", its actually able to increase Arginine levels...but Arginine cant!
    Can you please explain this? How is arginine not able to increase arginine levels?
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Can you please explain this? How is arginine not able to increase arginine levels?
    Orally ingested arginine does not increase blood plasma arginine levels.

    This is quite common with compounds to be honest. Look at something like Beta Alanine and Carnosine. Which is best to take to increase Carnosine levels? Beta Alanine. Carnosine on its own barely(if at all) raises plasma Carnosine levels, however Beta Alanine does it quite effectively.


    Arginine works in a similar fashion in that simply eating more arginine does NOT increase arginine levels in our body. The arginine that is digested orally is broken down into smaller subfractions from there(one of which is agmatine sulfate, however at a low rate)...





    In this above image, you'll see that the "arginase enzyme" is responsible for this "phenomenon".


    So at the end of the day, if you want to use arginine to boost NO, I'm sorry but you'll have to inject it...and even then most studies showing an increase in true NO from injected arginine come about with 30g+ IV doses.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  23. Didn't mean to turn this into a quiz. The answer is in the figure you just posted. Arginine doesn't stay in "your belly". It makes it into the blood and the muscles, but arginase works faster than eNOS. That's why pharm companies are looking to inhibit arginase. It's not a matter of no arginine. Just simply two enzymes competing for the same substrate.
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Didn't mean to turn this into a quiz. The answer is in the figure you just posted. Arginine doesn't stay in "your belly". It makes it into the blood and the muscles, but arginase works faster than eNOS. That's why pharm companies are looking to inhibit arginase. It's not a matter of no arginine. Just simply two enzymes competing for the same substrate.
    Please find me one study that shows orally ingested Arginine raises NO in healthy individuals.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager


  25. J Nutrigenet Nutrigenomics.
    2011;4(2):90-8. Epub 2011 May 28.

    To give or not to give? Lessons from the arginine paradox.

    Dioguardi FS.
    Source

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Milan, Milan, Italy. fsdioguardi @ gmail.com

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the 20 amino acids (AA) found in proteins and synthesized by human cells. However, arginine is also the substrate for a series of reactions leading to the synthesis of other AA and is an obligatory substrate for two enzymes with diverging actions, arginases and nitric oxide synthases (NOS), giving origin to urea and NO, respectively. NO is a very potent vasodilator when produced by endothelial NOS (eNOS). The 'arginine paradox' is the fact that, despite intracellular physiological concentration of arginine being several hundred micromoles per liter, far exceeding the ∼5 μM K(M) of eNOS, the acute provision of exogenous arginine still increases NO production. Clinically, an additional paradox is that the largest controlled study on chronic oral arginine supplementation in patients after myocardial infarction had to be interrupted for excess mortality in treated patients. Expression and activity of arginases, which produce urea and divert arginine from NOS, are positively related to exogenous arginine supplementation. Therefore, the more arginine is introduced, the more it is destroyed, eventually leading to impaired NO production. In this review, conditions influencing the low arginine concentrations found in plasma will be reviewed, revising the paradigm that simple replenishment of what is lacking will always produce beneficial consequences.


    Biochem J. 1998 Nov 15;336 ( Pt 1):1-17.
    Arginine metabolism: nitric oxide and beyond.

    Wu G, Morris SM Jr.
    Source

    Departments of Animal Science, Medical Physiology, and Veterinary Anatomy and Public Health, and Faculty of Nutrition, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843, USA. [email protected]

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the most versatile amino acids in animal cells, serving as a precursor for the synthesis not only of proteins but also of nitric oxide, urea, polyamines, proline, glutamate, creatine and agmatine. Of the enzymes that catalyse rate-controlling steps in arginine synthesis and catabolism, argininosuccinate synthase, the two arginase isoenzymes, the three nitric oxide synthase isoenzymes and arginine decarboxylase have been recognized in recent years as key factors in regulating newly identified aspects of arginine metabolism. In particular, changes in the activities of argininosuccinate synthase, the arginases, the inducible isoenzyme of nitric oxide synthase and also cationic amino acid transporters play major roles in determining the metabolic fates of arginine in health and disease, and recent studies have identified complex patterns of interaction among these enzymes. There is growing interest in the potential roles of the arginase isoenzymes as regulators of the synthesis of nitric oxide, polyamines, proline and glutamate. Physiological roles and relationships between the pathways of arginine synthesis and catabolism in vivo are complex and difficult to analyse, owing to compartmentalized expression of various enzymes at both organ (e.g. liver, small intestine and kidney) and subcellular (cytosol and mitochondria) levels, as well as to changes in expression during development and in response to diet, hormones and cytokines. The ongoing development of new cell lines and animal models using cDNA clones and genes for key arginine metabolic enzymes will provide new approaches more clearly elucidating the physiological roles of these enzymes.




    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Please find me one study that shows orally ingested Arginine raises NO in healthy individuals.
    Do you want the pdfs too or are we only posting abstracts back and forth? Both reviews are full of studies in healthy humans and animals. If you want the math then look at any of Castillo's papers on dietary arginine. He has a few decades of them. And now I could ask you for studies on dietary arginine and "proof" that it doesn't raise NO. All that will prove though is that I can find two conflicting studies on just about anything.
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post

    J Nutrigenet Nutrigenomics.
    2011;4(2):90-8. Epub 2011 May 28.

    To give or not to give? Lessons from the arginine paradox.

    Dioguardi FS.
    Source

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Milan, Milan, Italy. fsdioguardi @ gmail.com

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the 20 amino acids (AA) found in proteins and synthesized by human cells. However, arginine is also the substrate for a series of reactions leading to the synthesis of other AA and is an obligatory substrate for two enzymes with diverging actions, arginases and nitric oxide synthases (NOS), giving origin to urea and NO, respectively. NO is a very potent vasodilator when produced by endothelial NOS (eNOS). The 'arginine paradox' is the fact that, despite intracellular physiological concentration of arginine being several hundred micromoles per liter, far exceeding the ∼5 μM K(M) of eNOS, the acute provision of exogenous arginine still increases NO production. Clinically, an additional paradox is that the largest controlled study on chronic oral arginine supplementation in patients after myocardial infarction had to be interrupted for excess mortality in treated patients. Expression and activity of arginases, which produce urea and divert arginine from NOS, are positively related to exogenous arginine supplementation. Therefore, the more arginine is introduced, the more it is destroyed, eventually leading to impaired NO production. In this review, conditions influencing the low arginine concentrations found in plasma will be reviewed, revising the paradigm that simple replenishment of what is lacking will always produce beneficial consequences.


    Biochem J. 1998 Nov 15;336 ( Pt 1):1-17.
    Arginine metabolism: nitric oxide and beyond.

    Wu G, Morris SM Jr.
    Source

    Departments of Animal Science, Medical Physiology, and Veterinary Anatomy and Public Health, and Faculty of Nutrition, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843, USA. [email protected]

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the most versatile amino acids in animal cells, serving as a precursor for the synthesis not only of proteins but also of nitric oxide, urea, polyamines, proline, glutamate, creatine and agmatine. Of the enzymes that catalyse rate-controlling steps in arginine synthesis and catabolism, argininosuccinate synthase, the two arginase isoenzymes, the three nitric oxide synthase isoenzymes and arginine decarboxylase have been recognized in recent years as key factors in regulating newly identified aspects of arginine metabolism. In particular, changes in the activities of argininosuccinate synthase, the arginases, the inducible isoenzyme of nitric oxide synthase and also cationic amino acid transporters play major roles in determining the metabolic fates of arginine in health and disease, and recent studies have identified complex patterns of interaction among these enzymes. There is growing interest in the potential roles of the arginase isoenzymes as regulators of the synthesis of nitric oxide, polyamines, proline and glutamate. Physiological roles and relationships between the pathways of arginine synthesis and catabolism in vivo are complex and difficult to analyse, owing to compartmentalized expression of various enzymes at both organ (e.g. liver, small intestine and kidney) and subcellular (cytosol and mitochondria) levels, as well as to changes in expression during development and in response to diet, hormones and cytokines. The ongoing development of new cell lines and animal models using cDNA clones and genes for key arginine metabolic enzymes will provide new approaches more clearly elucidating the physiological roles of these enzymes.






    Do you want the pdfs too or are we only posting abstracts back and forth? Both reviews are full of studies in healthy humans and animals. If you want the math then look at any of Castillo's papers on dietary arginine. He has a few decades of them. And now I could ask you for studies on dietary arginine and "proof" that it doesn't raise NO. All that will prove though is that I can find two conflicting studies on just about anything.

    um...not one of those abstracts you posted shows healthy individuals increasing NO through oral arginine administration.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  27. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    um...not one of those abstracts you posted shows healthy individuals increasing NO through oral arginine administration.
    You have to actually read the papers. I know this is hard to understand, but abstracts are just summaries.
    ***PES Representative***
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  28. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    You have to actually read the papers. I know this is hard to understand, but abstracts are just summaries.
    You know...it's funny. I thought we were here having a discussion, however you apparently just have to be a dick to seem cool.



    I'm not going to waste my time reading a full study when the abstract doesn't mention ANYTHING about what I asked you to post up.



    Let me know when you're ready for a DISCUSSION, and not a childhood playground fight.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  29. So like....what should the OP take to boost nitric oxide levels? I'm sure it was mentioned in here somewhere. I hate reading though.
    Use code "fl3x10" to get a free shirt with your purchase at Mind and Muscle

  30. Ingredients that ACTUALLY increase NO:

    Agmatine sulfate
    Citrulline Malate
    GPLC
    Norvaline
    Epimedium
    (so...basically everything HemaVol includes except GPLC)



    Oh, and Arginine when you inject it.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager
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