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any REAL vasodilator supps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post

    Citrulline Malate doesn't have "better absorption", its actually able to increase Arginine levels...but Arginine cant!
    Can you please explain this? How is arginine not able to increase arginine levels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Can you please explain this? How is arginine not able to increase arginine levels?
    Orally ingested arginine does not increase blood plasma arginine levels.

    This is quite common with compounds to be honest. Look at something like Beta Alanine and Carnosine. Which is best to take to increase Carnosine levels? Beta Alanine. Carnosine on its own barely(if at all) raises plasma Carnosine levels, however Beta Alanine does it quite effectively.


    Arginine works in a similar fashion in that simply eating more arginine does NOT increase arginine levels in our body. The arginine that is digested orally is broken down into smaller subfractions from there(one of which is agmatine sulfate, however at a low rate)...





    In this above image, you'll see that the "arginase enzyme" is responsible for this "phenomenon".


    So at the end of the day, if you want to use arginine to boost NO, I'm sorry but you'll have to inject it...and even then most studies showing an increase in true NO from injected arginine come about with 30g+ IV doses.
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    Didn't mean to turn this into a quiz. The answer is in the figure you just posted. Arginine doesn't stay in "your belly". It makes it into the blood and the muscles, but arginase works faster than eNOS. That's why pharm companies are looking to inhibit arginase. It's not a matter of no arginine. Just simply two enzymes competing for the same substrate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Didn't mean to turn this into a quiz. The answer is in the figure you just posted. Arginine doesn't stay in "your belly". It makes it into the blood and the muscles, but arginase works faster than eNOS. That's why pharm companies are looking to inhibit arginase. It's not a matter of no arginine. Just simply two enzymes competing for the same substrate.
    Please find me one study that shows orally ingested Arginine raises NO in healthy individuals.
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    J Nutrigenet Nutrigenomics.
    2011;4(2):90-8. Epub 2011 May 28.

    To give or not to give? Lessons from the arginine paradox.

    Dioguardi FS.
    Source

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Milan, Milan, Italy. fsdioguardi @ gmail.com

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the 20 amino acids (AA) found in proteins and synthesized by human cells. However, arginine is also the substrate for a series of reactions leading to the synthesis of other AA and is an obligatory substrate for two enzymes with diverging actions, arginases and nitric oxide synthases (NOS), giving origin to urea and NO, respectively. NO is a very potent vasodilator when produced by endothelial NOS (eNOS). The 'arginine paradox' is the fact that, despite intracellular physiological concentration of arginine being several hundred micromoles per liter, far exceeding the ∼5 μM K(M) of eNOS, the acute provision of exogenous arginine still increases NO production. Clinically, an additional paradox is that the largest controlled study on chronic oral arginine supplementation in patients after myocardial infarction had to be interrupted for excess mortality in treated patients. Expression and activity of arginases, which produce urea and divert arginine from NOS, are positively related to exogenous arginine supplementation. Therefore, the more arginine is introduced, the more it is destroyed, eventually leading to impaired NO production. In this review, conditions influencing the low arginine concentrations found in plasma will be reviewed, revising the paradigm that simple replenishment of what is lacking will always produce beneficial consequences.


    Biochem J. 1998 Nov 15;336 ( Pt 1):1-17.
    Arginine metabolism: nitric oxide and beyond.

    Wu G, Morris SM Jr.
    Source

    Departments of Animal Science, Medical Physiology, and Veterinary Anatomy and Public Health, and Faculty of Nutrition, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843, USA. g-wu@tamu.edu

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the most versatile amino acids in animal cells, serving as a precursor for the synthesis not only of proteins but also of nitric oxide, urea, polyamines, proline, glutamate, creatine and agmatine. Of the enzymes that catalyse rate-controlling steps in arginine synthesis and catabolism, argininosuccinate synthase, the two arginase isoenzymes, the three nitric oxide synthase isoenzymes and arginine decarboxylase have been recognized in recent years as key factors in regulating newly identified aspects of arginine metabolism. In particular, changes in the activities of argininosuccinate synthase, the arginases, the inducible isoenzyme of nitric oxide synthase and also cationic amino acid transporters play major roles in determining the metabolic fates of arginine in health and disease, and recent studies have identified complex patterns of interaction among these enzymes. There is growing interest in the potential roles of the arginase isoenzymes as regulators of the synthesis of nitric oxide, polyamines, proline and glutamate. Physiological roles and relationships between the pathways of arginine synthesis and catabolism in vivo are complex and difficult to analyse, owing to compartmentalized expression of various enzymes at both organ (e.g. liver, small intestine and kidney) and subcellular (cytosol and mitochondria) levels, as well as to changes in expression during development and in response to diet, hormones and cytokines. The ongoing development of new cell lines and animal models using cDNA clones and genes for key arginine metabolic enzymes will provide new approaches more clearly elucidating the physiological roles of these enzymes.




    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Please find me one study that shows orally ingested Arginine raises NO in healthy individuals.
    Do you want the pdfs too or are we only posting abstracts back and forth? Both reviews are full of studies in healthy humans and animals. If you want the math then look at any of Castillo's papers on dietary arginine. He has a few decades of them. And now I could ask you for studies on dietary arginine and "proof" that it doesn't raise NO. All that will prove though is that I can find two conflicting studies on just about anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post

    J Nutrigenet Nutrigenomics.
    2011;4(2):90-8. Epub 2011 May 28.

    To give or not to give? Lessons from the arginine paradox.

    Dioguardi FS.
    Source

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Milan, Milan, Italy. fsdioguardi @ gmail.com

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the 20 amino acids (AA) found in proteins and synthesized by human cells. However, arginine is also the substrate for a series of reactions leading to the synthesis of other AA and is an obligatory substrate for two enzymes with diverging actions, arginases and nitric oxide synthases (NOS), giving origin to urea and NO, respectively. NO is a very potent vasodilator when produced by endothelial NOS (eNOS). The 'arginine paradox' is the fact that, despite intracellular physiological concentration of arginine being several hundred micromoles per liter, far exceeding the ∼5 μM K(M) of eNOS, the acute provision of exogenous arginine still increases NO production. Clinically, an additional paradox is that the largest controlled study on chronic oral arginine supplementation in patients after myocardial infarction had to be interrupted for excess mortality in treated patients. Expression and activity of arginases, which produce urea and divert arginine from NOS, are positively related to exogenous arginine supplementation. Therefore, the more arginine is introduced, the more it is destroyed, eventually leading to impaired NO production. In this review, conditions influencing the low arginine concentrations found in plasma will be reviewed, revising the paradigm that simple replenishment of what is lacking will always produce beneficial consequences.


    Biochem J. 1998 Nov 15;336 ( Pt 1):1-17.
    Arginine metabolism: nitric oxide and beyond.

    Wu G, Morris SM Jr.
    Source

    Departments of Animal Science, Medical Physiology, and Veterinary Anatomy and Public Health, and Faculty of Nutrition, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843, USA. g-wu@tamu.edu

    Abstract

    Arginine is one of the most versatile amino acids in animal cells, serving as a precursor for the synthesis not only of proteins but also of nitric oxide, urea, polyamines, proline, glutamate, creatine and agmatine. Of the enzymes that catalyse rate-controlling steps in arginine synthesis and catabolism, argininosuccinate synthase, the two arginase isoenzymes, the three nitric oxide synthase isoenzymes and arginine decarboxylase have been recognized in recent years as key factors in regulating newly identified aspects of arginine metabolism. In particular, changes in the activities of argininosuccinate synthase, the arginases, the inducible isoenzyme of nitric oxide synthase and also cationic amino acid transporters play major roles in determining the metabolic fates of arginine in health and disease, and recent studies have identified complex patterns of interaction among these enzymes. There is growing interest in the potential roles of the arginase isoenzymes as regulators of the synthesis of nitric oxide, polyamines, proline and glutamate. Physiological roles and relationships between the pathways of arginine synthesis and catabolism in vivo are complex and difficult to analyse, owing to compartmentalized expression of various enzymes at both organ (e.g. liver, small intestine and kidney) and subcellular (cytosol and mitochondria) levels, as well as to changes in expression during development and in response to diet, hormones and cytokines. The ongoing development of new cell lines and animal models using cDNA clones and genes for key arginine metabolic enzymes will provide new approaches more clearly elucidating the physiological roles of these enzymes.






    Do you want the pdfs too or are we only posting abstracts back and forth? Both reviews are full of studies in healthy humans and animals. If you want the math then look at any of Castillo's papers on dietary arginine. He has a few decades of them. And now I could ask you for studies on dietary arginine and "proof" that it doesn't raise NO. All that will prove though is that I can find two conflicting studies on just about anything.

    um...not one of those abstracts you posted shows healthy individuals increasing NO through oral arginine administration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    um...not one of those abstracts you posted shows healthy individuals increasing NO through oral arginine administration.
    You have to actually read the papers. I know this is hard to understand, but abstracts are just summaries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    You have to actually read the papers. I know this is hard to understand, but abstracts are just summaries.
    You know...it's funny. I thought we were here having a discussion, however you apparently just have to be a dick to seem cool.



    I'm not going to waste my time reading a full study when the abstract doesn't mention ANYTHING about what I asked you to post up.



    Let me know when you're ready for a DISCUSSION, and not a childhood playground fight.
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    So like....what should the OP take to boost nitric oxide levels? I'm sure it was mentioned in here somewhere. I hate reading though.
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    Ingredients that ACTUALLY increase NO:

    Agmatine sulfate
    Citrulline Malate
    GPLC
    Norvaline
    Epimedium
    (so...basically everything HemaVol includes except GPLC)



    Oh, and Arginine when you inject it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Ingredients that ACTUALLY increase NO:

    Agmatine sulfate
    Citrulline Malate
    GPLC
    Norvaline
    Epimedium
    (so...basically everything HemaVol includes except GPLC)



    Oh, and Arginine when you inject it.
    + nitrates
    - GPLC (damn bias)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    + nitrates
    - GPLC (damn bias)
    I really want to argue with Muscleology about including AAKG in their new "ground-breaking" pre.

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    Ok.... silly question.... what if I mix arginine powder into a hot oil to sterilize it, could I safely inject it??? May sound dumb,,, but why not ask the question
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    I'm already injecting test, hcg, and b-12..... why not arginine? Lol
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    i guess just going the hemavol route would be my best bet to cover all bases.... however, it says not to use more than 4 times a week, am i wrong in assuming i may miss my 2nd target goal of lower bp (through vasodilation) as i would probably need something that i can take everyday?

    i just figure if it does help with vasodilation and improve circulation, it wouldnt be in my system long enough to keep these effects if im having to take it every other day. am i wrong in this? (i realize there may not be a definite answer to this as most people probably dont experiment with it for its blood pressure lowering abilities, haha)
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    Quote Originally Posted by grngoloco View Post
    I'm already injecting test, hcg, and b-12..... why not arginine? Lol
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue
    Arginine does not increase NO...but does help produce pumps.

    Agmatine + Cit Malate + Norvaline + GMS + Alpha-GPC + Vitamin C + Rutacaerpine + Epimedium = win.
    Wat doses on all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM
    So like....what should the OP take to boost nitric oxide levels? I'm sure it was mentioned in here somewhere. I hate reading though.
    Hahaha flex I loled on that one..... But totally agree. And wish I would just get the answer lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by grngoloco
    Ok.... silly question.... what if I mix arginine powder into a hot oil to sterilize it, could I safely inject it??? May sound dumb,,, but why not ask the question
    No.......... it is possible through chemistry..... But you dont have the supllies or the knowledge.... Sry.... No offense.... Just take insulin
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    Is this enzyme just ridiculously fast and efficient at the conversion of arginine to ornothine and urea relative to eNOS?

    I feel like you've proposed a mechanism that contains multiple reactions, but jumped over the details regarding relative rates (e.g. selectivities).

    I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the subject, this post simply does not present enough information to support you're claim. I am mainly interested in simply in scientific information being presented in a scientific manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Orally ingested arginine does not increase blood plasma arginine levels.

    This is quite common with compounds to be honest. Look at something like Beta Alanine and Carnosine. Which is best to take to increase Carnosine levels? Beta Alanine. Carnosine on its own barely(if at all) raises plasma Carnosine levels, however Beta Alanine does it quite effectively.


    Arginine works in a similar fashion in that simply eating more arginine does NOT increase arginine levels in our body. The arginine that is digested orally is broken down into smaller subfractions from there(one of which is agmatine sulfate, however at a low rate)...





    In this above image, you'll see that the "arginase enzyme" is responsible for this "phenomenon".


    So at the end of the day, if you want to use arginine to boost NO, I'm sorry but you'll have to inject it...and even then most studies showing an increase in true NO from injected arginine come about with 30g+ IV doses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86
    i guess just going the hemavol route would be my best bet to cover all bases.... however, it says not to use more than 4 times a week, am i wrong in assuming i may miss my 2nd target goal of lower bp (through vasodilation) as i would probably need something that i can take everyday?

    i just figure if it does help with vasodilation and improve circulation, it wouldnt be in my system long enough to keep these effects if im having to take it every other day. am i wrong in this? (i realize there may not be a definite answer to this as most people probably dont experiment with it for its blood pressure lowering abilities, haha)
    Seriously,,, I take argininernithine in a 2:1 ratio for my blood pressure and IT WORKS!! try it yourself,,, if it doesn't work it won't cost you near as much as most other supplements people are talking about
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner
    Is this enzyme just ridiculously fast and efficient at the conversion of arginine to ornothine and urea relative to eNOS?

    I feel like you've proposed a mechanism that contains multiple reactions, but jumped over the details regarding relative rates (e.g. selectivities).

    I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the subject, this post simply does not present enough information to support you're claim. I am mainly interested in simply in scientific information being presented in a scientific manner.
    10000 posts!? U gota be kidding me lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by grngoloco

    Seriously,,, I take argininernithine in a 2:1 ratio for my blood pressure and IT WORKS!! try it yourself,,, if it doesn't work it won't cost you near as much as most other supplements people are talking about
    I was taking double dose arginine along with whatever was in my preworkouts, doing this for about a week, then one day I had the squirts seriously all day. At least 5 times a day. After doing some research I decided to stop arginine, and about a week later I was "normal" again. Arginine was the only thing removed.
    Your body can be poisoned with too much basically. It can reach "toxic levels" and symptoms such as mine are a possibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Arginine and AAKG increase muscle blood volume, not vasodilation. Pump =/= vasodilation...same applies for other ingredients on your list.
    Not sure I agree with you- yes, pump does not equal vasodilation, but all of the ingredients listed have some effect on vasodilation/vasorelaxation in human and/or animal studies. Some may have caveats such as oral availability issues, but from a physiological standpoint all of the ingredients have at least some documented evidence of contributing to vasodilation. Some of the ingredients listed may be better than others at acheiving the goal, but this was a general list of compounds that I have seen published studies on- I would be more than glad to go through the list in terms of what I consider to be most effective based on what I have seen and documenable proof- and a lot of what you guys have discussed raises some interesting points....arginine would be one of my last choices for vasodilation (if my life depended on it), along with olive leaf extract and pycogenol, with PDE5 inhibitors and nitrates being at the top of the list
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i guess just going the hemavol route would be my best bet to cover all bases.... however, it says not to use more than 4 times a week, am i wrong in assuming i may miss my 2nd target goal of lower bp (through vasodilation) as i would probably need something that i can take everyday?

    i just figure if it does help with vasodilation and improve circulation, it wouldnt be in my system long enough to keep these effects if im having to take it every other day. am i wrong in this? (i realize there may not be a definite answer to this as most people probably dont experiment with it for its blood pressure lowering abilities, haha)
    HemaVol can be taken daily if desired.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Not sure I agree with you- yes, pump does not equal vasodilation, but all of the ingredients listed have some effect on vasodilation/vasorelaxation in human and/or animal studies. Some may have caveats such as oral availability issues, but from a physiological standpoint all of the ingredients have at least some documented evidence of contributing to vasodilation. Some of the ingredients listed may be better than others at acheiving the goal, but this was a general list of compounds that I have seen published studies on- I would be more than glad to go through the list in terms of what I consider to be most effective based on what I have seen and documenable proof- and a lot of what you guys have discussed raises some interesting points....arginine would be one of my last choices for vasodilation (if my life depended on it), along with olive leaf extract and pycogenol, with PDE5 inhibitors and nitrates being at the top of the list
    As I said in my previous posts, we are talking about oral, supplemental L-arginine in reasonable doses, not endogenous or intravenous. Anyway, I'll let Vaughn take over as I grow weary of the arginine debates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    You have to actually read the papers. I know this is hard to understand, but abstracts are just summaries.
    This is true

    Relying on abstracts alone can be quite deceiving and misleading. Its hard to come to a conclusion based off just the abstract without reviewing all the data in the entire paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Is this enzyme just ridiculously fast and efficient at the conversion of arginine to ornothine and urea relative to eNOS?

    I feel like you've proposed a mechanism that contains multiple reactions, but jumped over the details regarding relative rates (e.g. selectivities).

    I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the subject, this post simply does not present enough information to support you're claim. I am mainly interested in simply in scientific information being presented in a scientific manner.
    I always enjoy discussing topics with people, its when the attitudes/attacks start surfacing that make it unbearable. I have no issue continuing this with you since you're obviously looking for the real info/truth, and not a fight(at least I hope not haha).


    What I am saying is that the production of nitric oxide does not occur in our stomachs, and by the time arginine is digested/absorbed, it is no longer arginine...therefor it will not increase NO.

    Again, compare this to Beta Alanaine & Carnosine...which would YOU take to boost Carnosine levels?





    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Wat doses on all?
    Check out the formula here:

    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/i....html?sel=4121

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    + nitrates
    - GPLC (damn bias)

    Yes, I forgot about Nitrates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    This is true

    Relying on abstracts alone can be quite deceiving and misleading. Its hard to come to a conclusion based off just the abstract without reviewing all the data in the entire paper.
    Which is why I requested him to post 1 study that showed healthy humans increasing their NO through the use of oral arginine.


    Why would I read an entire paper if the abstract doesn't begin to touch on the specific topic on hand?


    I can post a tone of abstracts and full studies all day long, yet it doesn't mean they'll have anything to do with the conversation.
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    I guess I'll throw away my Hema Vol and just take bulk AAKG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM

    I was taking double dose arginine along with whatever was in my preworkouts, doing this for about a week, then one day I had the squirts seriously all day. At least 5 times a day. After doing some research I decided to stop arginine, and about a week later I was "normal" again. Arginine was the only thing removed.
    Your body can be poisoned with too much basically. It can reach "toxic levels" and symptoms such as mine are a possibility.
    You can get the squirts from vitamin c... that doesn't equate with being "poisoned" it just means you weren't used to it,,, you have to raise your dosage gradually ..... also it should be taken alone,, it competes for receptors and any that passes through without being absorbed adds to the squirts
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkGreek View Post
    I guess I'll throw away my Hema Vol and just take bulk AAKG.
    i c wut u did thar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    As I said in my previous posts, we are talking about oral, supplemental L-arginine in reasonable doses, not endogenous or intravenous. Anyway, I'll let Vaughn take over as I grow weary of the arginine debates.
    There are definitely better alternatives out there for the task at hand.....having to take 20 grams of ANY amino acid at once to elicit some sort of response is not my idea of a fun afternoon....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkGreek View Post
    Agmatine and citrulline malate. Buckets, bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80

    There are definitely better alternatives out there for the task at hand.....having to take 20 grams of ANY amino acid at once to elicit some sort of response is not my idea of a fun afternoon....
    Lol..... it's @ two teaspoons mixed with a glass of water and some pedialyte powder..... considering the average serious body builder takes 20+ pills a day.... that's nothing!!
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    Was doing AAKG for many years at fairly high dosage (10 grams) but pumps wouldn't last long.... maybe a couple of hours at most then the pumps went away.

    For me the best NO boosters are Agmatine, GPLC, and Creatine Nitrate. You can get the bulk agmatine from Muscle Feast. Was using Primordial's GPLC for a long time (which was great) but now they've discontinued it You can PrimaForce which is good but not as good of a value.

    For a great combo product you can do APS's Nitrozine which has GPLC and Agmatine... sick pumps all day.
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    Nitrates
    Gplc
    Agmatine

    My picks
    Athletic Xtreme Team REP
    http://www.AthleticX.net/
    AXHOLE BY NATURE
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanman31 View Post
    I agree with the agmatine statement I love that stuff

    I have had good results with the SNS caps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTB View Post
    I have had good results with the SNS caps.
    Hard not to feel awesome on Agmatine!
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    I've personally compared Agmatine, Citulline Malate, and GLPC together with a Nitrate (Yoked) and, although both worked extremely well, the nitrate worked slightly better for me. But Agmatine and Yoked together-- Ha!

    The cool thing about these supps is they not only make you look more pumped, but they dramatically increase energy and cardio abilities. I'm old and I can get 15.5 - 16 mets out of my cycling ablities when I go all out for 30 minutes. Ten mets is good shape for a 45 year old, and higher is better. And these supps do make a big difference.
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