any REAL vasodilator supps?

[grngoloco]

i guess just going the hemavol route would be my best bet to cover all bases.... however, it says not to use more than 4 times a week, am i wrong in assuming i may miss my 2nd target goal of lower bp (through vasodilation) as i would probably need something that i can take everyday?

i just figure if it does help with vasodilation and improve circulation, it wouldnt be in my system long enough to keep these effects if im having to take it every other day. am i wrong in this? (i realize there may not be a definite answer to this as most people probably dont experiment with it for its blood pressure lowering abilities, haha)

Seriously,,, I take argininernithine in a 2:1 ratio for my blood pressure and IT WORKS!! try it yourself,,, if it doesn't work it won't cost you near as much as most other supplements people are talking about

 

[madds87]

Is this enzyme just ridiculously fast and efficient at the conversion of arginine to ornothine and urea relative to eNOS?

I feel like you've proposed a mechanism that contains multiple reactions, but jumped over the details regarding relative rates (e.g. selectivities).

I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the subject, this post simply does not present enough information to support you're claim. I am mainly interested in simply in scientific information being presented in a scientific manner.

10000 posts!? U gota be kidding me lol

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

Seriously,,, I take argininernithine in a 2:1 ratio for my blood pressure and IT WORKS!! try it yourself,,, if it doesn't work it won't cost you near as much as most other supplements people are talking about

I was taking double dose arginine along with whatever was in my preworkouts, doing this for about a week, then one day I had the squirts seriously all day. At least 5 times a day. After doing some research I decided to stop arginine, and about a week later I was "normal" again. Arginine was the only thing removed.
Your body can be poisoned with too much basically. It can reach "toxic levels" and symptoms such as mine are a possibility.

 

[rms80]

Arginine and AAKG increase muscle blood volume, not vasodilation. Pump =/= vasodilation...same applies for other ingredients on your list.

Not sure I agree with you- yes, pump does not equal vasodilation, but all of the ingredients listed have some effect on vasodilation/vasorelaxation in human and/or animal studies. Some may have caveats such as oral availability issues, but from a physiological standpoint all of the ingredients have at least some documented evidence of contributing to vasodilation. Some of the ingredients listed may be better than others at acheiving the goal, but this was a general list of compounds that I have seen published studies on- I would be more than glad to go through the list in terms of what I consider to be most effective based on what I have seen and documenable proof- and a lot of what you guys have discussed raises some interesting points....arginine would be one of my last choices for vasodilation (if my life depended on it), along with olive leaf extract and pycogenol, with PDE5 inhibitors and nitrates being at the top of the list

 

[VaughnTrue]

i guess just going the hemavol route would be my best bet to cover all bases.... however, it says not to use more than 4 times a week, am i wrong in assuming i may miss my 2nd target goal of lower bp (through vasodilation) as i would probably need something that i can take everyday?

i just figure if it does help with vasodilation and improve circulation, it wouldnt be in my system long enough to keep these effects if im having to take it every other day. am i wrong in this? (i realize there may not be a definite answer to this as most people probably dont experiment with it for its blood pressure lowering abilities, haha)

HemaVol can be taken daily if desired.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Not sure I agree with you- yes, pump does not equal vasodilation, but all of the ingredients listed have some effect on vasodilation/vasorelaxation in human and/or animal studies. Some may have caveats such as oral availability issues, but from a physiological standpoint all of the ingredients have at least some documented evidence of contributing to vasodilation. Some of the ingredients listed may be better than others at acheiving the goal, but this was a general list of compounds that I have seen published studies on- I would be more than glad to go through the list in terms of what I consider to be most effective based on what I have seen and documenable proof- and a lot of what you guys have discussed raises some interesting points....arginine would be one of my last choices for vasodilation (if my life depended on it), along with olive leaf extract and pycogenol, with PDE5 inhibitors and nitrates being at the top of the list

As I said in my previous posts, we are talking about oral, supplemental L-arginine in reasonable doses, not endogenous or intravenous. Anyway, I'll let Vaughn take over as I grow weary of the arginine debates.

 

[JudoJosh]

You have to actually read the papers. I know this is hard to understand, but abstracts are just summaries.

This is true

Relying on abstracts alone can be quite deceiving and misleading. Its hard to come to a conclusion based off just the abstract without reviewing all the data in the entire paper.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Is this enzyme just ridiculously fast and efficient at the conversion of arginine to ornothine and urea relative to eNOS?

I feel like you've proposed a mechanism that contains multiple reactions, but jumped over the details regarding relative rates (e.g. selectivities).

I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the subject, this post simply does not present enough information to support you're claim. I am mainly interested in simply in scientific information being presented in a scientific manner.

I always enjoy discussing topics with people, its when the attitudes/attacks start surfacing that make it unbearable. I have no issue continuing this with you since you're obviously looking for the real info/truth, and not a fight(at least I hope not haha).


What I am saying is that the production of nitric oxide does not occur in our stomachs, and by the time arginine is digested/absorbed, it is no longer arginine...therefor it will not increase NO.

Again, compare this to Beta Alanaine & Carnosine...which would YOU take to boost Carnosine levels?

Wat doses on all?

Check out the formula here:

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/iforce-nutrition/hemavol-32-servings.html?sel=4121

+ nitrates
- GPLC (damn bias)

Yes, I forgot about Nitrates.

 

[VaughnTrue]

This is true

Relying on abstracts alone can be quite deceiving and misleading. Its hard to come to a conclusion based off just the abstract without reviewing all the data in the entire paper.

Which is why I requested him to post 1 study that showed healthy humans increasing their NO through the use of oral arginine.


Why would I read an entire paper if the abstract doesn't begin to touch on the specific topic on hand?


I can post a tone of abstracts and full studies all day long, yet it doesn't mean they'll have anything to do with the conversation.

 

[DkGreek]

I guess I'll throw away my Hema Vol and just take bulk AAKG.

 

[grngoloco]

I was taking double dose arginine along with whatever was in my preworkouts, doing this for about a week, then one day I had the squirts seriously all day. At least 5 times a day. After doing some research I decided to stop arginine, and about a week later I was "normal" again. Arginine was the only thing removed.
Your body can be poisoned with too much basically. It can reach "toxic levels" and symptoms such as mine are a possibility.

You can get the squirts from vitamin c... that doesn't equate with being "poisoned" it just means you weren't used to it,,, you have to raise your dosage gradually ..... also it should be taken alone,, it competes for receptors and any that passes through without being absorbed adds to the squirts

 

[VaughnTrue]

I guess I'll throw away my Hema Vol and just take bulk AAKG.

i c wut u did thar.

 

[rms80]

As I said in my previous posts, we are talking about oral, supplemental L-arginine in reasonable doses, not endogenous or intravenous. Anyway, I'll let Vaughn take over as I grow weary of the arginine debates.

There are definitely better alternatives out there for the task at hand.....having to take 20 grams of ANY amino acid at once to elicit some sort of response is not my idea of a fun afternoon....

 

[JonRubio]

Agmatine and citrulline malate. Buckets, bro.

:rofl:

 

[grngoloco]

There are definitely better alternatives out there for the task at hand.....having to take 20 grams of ANY amino acid at once to elicit some sort of response is not my idea of a fun afternoon....

Lol..... it's @ two teaspoons mixed with a glass of water and some pedialyte powder..... considering the average serious body builder takes 20+ pills a day.... that's nothing!!

 

[fastneutron]

Was doing AAKG for many years at fairly high dosage (10 grams) but pumps wouldn't last long.... maybe a couple of hours at most then the pumps went away.

For me the best NO boosters are Agmatine, GPLC, and Creatine Nitrate. You can get the bulk agmatine from Muscle Feast. Was using Primordial's GPLC for a long time (which was great) but now they've discontinued it You can PrimaForce which is good but not as good of a value.

For a great combo product you can do APS's Nitrozine which has GPLC and Agmatine... sick pumps all day.

 

[flightposite]

Nitrates
Gplc
Agmatine

My picks

 

[GTB]

I agree with the agmatine statement I love that stuff

I have had good results with the SNS caps.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I have had good results with the SNS caps.

Hard not to feel awesome on Agmatine!

 

[tuberman]

I've personally compared Agmatine, Citulline Malate, and GLPC together with a Nitrate (Yoked) and, although both worked extremely well, the nitrate worked slightly better for me. But Agmatine and Yoked together-- Ha!

The cool thing about these supps is they not only make you look more pumped, but they dramatically increase energy and cardio abilities. I'm old and I can get 15.5 - 16 mets out of my cycling ablities when I go all out for 30 minutes. Ten mets is good shape for a 45 year old, and higher is better. And these supps do make a big difference.

 

[grngoloco]

I've been using arginine for 15 years as a precursor for gh release ..... I am new to body building and have a dumb question,,,,, I've read that getting "pump" serves no real purpose other than boosting the ego.....is there any truth to this,,, and if not, what physiological benefit does the "pump" serve?

 

[th3futur3]

If there's any IF'ers out there...hemavol is a god send working out fasted. I almost am thinking about cutting out stims altogether and just taking 10 grams bcaas/1-2 scoops hemavol pre workout for now on. It's great!

 

[th3futur3]

I've been using arginine for 15 years as a precursor for gh release ..... I am new to body building and have a dumb question,,,,, I've read that getting "pump" serves no real purpose other than boosting the ego.....is there any truth to this,,, and if not, what physiological benefit does the "pump" serve?

Google Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. There is many benefits to the pump...is it the end all end all thing to strive for? I would say no. I think progressive overload is something that should be focused on...but varying your rep ranges, aka getting a pump, has it's place. Try doing a widowmaker set (20 reps) at the end of each bodypart and engorge that muscle with blood...then extreme stretch for 60-90 seconds. Try it for a month then tell me if that part grew...

 

[mattrag]

If there's any IF'ers out there...hemavol is a god send working out fasted. I almost am thinking about cutting out stims altogether and just taking 10 grams bcaas/1-2 scoops hemavol pre workout for now on. It's great!

I agree! Hemavol is awesome!

 

[AaronJP1]

Ingredients that ACTUALLY increase NO:

Agmatine sulfate
Citrulline Malate
GPLC
Norvaline
Epimedium
(so...basically everything HemaVol includes except GPLC)

Oh, and Arginine when you inject it.

I'm going to be trying a sample packet of the MuscleTech NanoStim... We will c how good it is...

Not to mention for PWO I ate about 100g of carbs and 2 hours before that another 80g of carbs and about 4!!! recompadrol!!!!


We will see what happens :13:

 

[StackedCop]

I've been using arginine for 15 years as a precursor for gh release ..... I am new to body building and have a dumb question,,,,, I've read that getting "pump" serves no real purpose other than boosting the ego.....is there any truth to this,,, and if not, what physiological benefit does the "pump" serve?

I used to think the same thing about pumps... Now I wish I started focusing on "pumps" a lot sooner. My joints probably wouldn't hurt so much either.

 

[AaronJP1]

I used to think the same thing about pumps... Now I wish I started focusing on "pumps" a lot sooner. My joints probably wouldn't hurt so much either.

Explain?

Blood/Nutrients into muscle correct?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Explain?

Blood/Nutrients into muscle correct?

No. Nutrients are delivered just fine to muscles, regardless of the state of your blood vessels. The increase in bloodflow does boost vasoregulatory function, however, which results in true NO boosters serving as ergogenic aids.

 

[AaronJP1]

No. Nutrients are delivered just fine to muscles, regardless of the state of your blood vessels. The increase in bloodflow does boost vasoregulatory function, however, which results in true NO boosters serving as ergogenic aids.

Thx

 

[thesinner]

If there's any IF'ers out there...hemavol is a god send working out fasted. I almost am thinking about cutting out stims altogether and just taking 10 grams bcaas/1-2 scoops hemavol pre workout for now on. It's great!

Aren't most stimulants vasoconstrictors anyway? I don't understand the connection you are trying to make with this?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Aren't most stimulants vasoconstrictors anyway? I don't understand the connection you are trying to make with this?

Hemavol doesn't contain stimulants. And no, during exercise caffeine actually acts as a vasodilator [in skeletal muscle], along with a couple other noteworthy CNS stims.

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

Hemavol doesn't contain stimulants. And no, during exercise caffeine actually acts as a vasodilator [in skeletal muscle], along with a couple other noteworthy CNS stims.

What other noteworthy stims Coopz?

 

[madds87]

What other noteworthy stims Coopz?

What about hemavol and focus factor together? Sound crazy?

 

[MattPorter]

DO people not understand how important insulin is for "pumps"???

-Matt

 

[monstermash]

DO people not understand how important insulin is for "pumps"???

-Matt

Drop that knowledge bomb on AM Matt.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Drop that knowledge bomb on AM Matt.

He is quite correct. Heightened insulin levels = pump like whoa

 

[AaronJP1]

He is quite correct. Heightened insulin levels = pump like whoa

Eat red velvet cake before and after your work out?

 

[VaughnTrue]

Eat red velvet cake before and after your work out?

= winning upon winning.

 

[MattPorter]

If you are NOT suffering from insulin resistance and are NOT obese INSULIN will increase blood flow to skeletal muscle. The combination of insulin being spiked + exercising will increase blood flow, oxygen, and many other vital nutrients into muscle cells.

Leaner people are TYPICALLY more insulin sensitive and will respond well to an insulin spike pre-workout. Fatter people TYPICALLY are more insulin resistant and will NOT respond favorably to an insulin spike.

-
Matt

 

[EArch]

DO people not understand how important insulin is for "pumps"???

-Matt

I get the best pumps lifting about an hour to an hour and a half atfer a high complex carb meal and drinking a lotta water. works for me. maybe it has something to do with the insulin.

 

[poison]

Don't forget nitrates. They're what make Fierce, fierce.

 

[grngoloco]

Sodium nitrite is a powerful carcinogenic,, are the nitrates we're talking about dangerous as well???

 

[ScienceGuided]

Icariin + agmatine + sns Arginine E2 Matrix = honestly the sickest pump and most vascular I have ever been

 

[Bryanz47]

I think a good NO bolster is rpm and drive. Mix in some v02 ultra, and some purple wraath. Done

X2 for drive and rpm... great combo

 

[VaughnTrue]

Sodium nitrate is a powerful carcinogenic,, are the nitrates we're talking about dangerous as well???

really not carcinogenic when it isn't combined with processed/preserved meats...

http://www.livestrong.com/article/206868-the-effects-of-sodium-nitrite/

 

[grngoloco]

really not carcinogenic when it isn't combined with processed/preserved meats...

http://www.livestrong.com/article/206868-the-effects-of-sodium-nitrite/

The article said it combines with amines to become carcinogenic.... wondering about glutamine ..... it also said to take with c&e, which is something to keep in mind .... sure hate to end up with cancer due to want of a pump,,, lol

 

[thesinner]

^ wrong chemical. The concept is still the same, the reduction potential (and therefore activity) is greater.


The associated cation has an effect on the reactivity of the compound. In the case of supplements, it's attached to an amino acid, making it a weaker electrolyte. Sodium being a strong electrolyte leads to more free nitrates. THe nitrates break down and form free radicals and oxidize the crap out of everything. Most nitrates with a metal cation will discolor your skin as a result of the anion reacting with the cation, forming the metal oxide.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Simple antioxidants should solve it pretty quickly

 

[grngoloco]

Been looking at several articles on the subject,,, definitely not black and white with regards to whether nitrates are safe or not,,,, just goes to show, we definitely need to do our own research when deciding what to put in our bodies ..... I, for one, try to not take any chemical or supplement that doesn't have at least 10 years of research behind it.... most of what I take, I've been taking for over 20 years

 

[AaronJP1]

People ranted and raved over Nanostim, the company that makes it I'm not a huge fan of, but said hey I'll try it. Forked over my $30 and pumps are ok, it's like once u use something for a bit maybe the body becomes tolerant cuz I've used pump products before.

Vasotropin looks good but I don't always get a heavy carb mean in before my work out and white blood looks solid, something I def want to try... One good thing about nanostim is it does give u a great focus...