Short cycles, some thoughts

[jminis]

I think that is more than okay. However, realize that jminis's cycle is using hormones bases. I believe that this is an important element; test suspension and/or bold suspension

Exactly although as I've said before longer ester can be used I think short or no esters are the way to go to take full advantage of the cycle.

Size you got a pm bro.

 

[lifted]

Jminis, you mind posting your whole cycle and everything that you ran and if you did anything out of the ordinary for PCT? Also, did you do two injects ED? If so, what times, etc? Did you start a new training routine or stick with the one you were currently doing? All this info would be good to know. Thanks bud....

 

[jminis]

As soon as things get settled with me (in the middle of a move) I will start a thread about my cycle, by that time I will be two weeks into PCT. I will tell you guys this now, I ended up about 18-19lbs and an increase of about 1.5-2%bf Later fellas, J

:thumbsup: for Jergo, LOL and btw no sticks, I felt like taking a break for the summer from pins as I was really feeling like a human pin cushion from the winter. I ran this one transdermal although the next one probably will be run and made into a supsension for more accurated dosing.

 

[lifted]

:thumbsup: for Jergo, LOL and btw no sticks, I felt like taking a break for the summer from pins as I was really feeling like a human pin cushion from the winter. I ran this one transdermal although the next one probably will be run and made into a supsension for more accurated dosing.

Haha, cool man.....that's kick ass. I think I'm gonna have to buy that book now, LOL...it has me yearning for some more reading....

 

[b-boy]

As soon as things get settled with me (in the middle of a move) I will start a thread about my cycle, by that time I will be two weeks into PCT. I will tell you guys this now, I ended up about 18-19lbs and an increase of about 1.5-2%bf Later fellas, J

please do bro, i am also following ALR's proticols, i just ended a long precontest cycle so i am doing slin and dnp right now, and will follow with the other proticols, start the thread so we can compare. I cant wait to start my cycle.... you notice in most of the sample max androgen phases given that they are loooong esters, he uses **** like theramex (spell check) and cypionate, and so forth, i will try and contruct my clycle using test enanth. and EQ, and maybe an oral up front, but not exceeding my daily mg threshold... following the intermediate cycle! please keep us updated on your progress, i will be following you closely bro. thanks..... b-boy

 

[wolvie]

I am also thinking of doing my first cycle with Tren 50mg/day and d-bol 30mg/day
for 2 weeks and 4-8 weeks off.
What kind of gains I can expect from this ?
Diet - 400 gm of protein , 200 gm of carb , 50-100 gm Fat from EFA.
PCT would be - Nolva 40mg/day + clomid 50mg/day for 4 weeks+ Milk Thristle.
I have done a 4 week Nordiol, 4 AD cycle in the past and right now on igf1 ( 19th day ).

Wt - 168
Ht - 5'9

 

[bobthebuilder]

originally posted by Iron Addict:

"OK, anyone that frequents SOME of the bodybuilding forums these days see these types of posts all the time. Especially on the boards that have a younger readership and are heavily involved in pro-hormone use. These younger guys that are all caught-up in their 2-4 week cycles are all over the boards these days posting their cycle logs and raving about their 10-30 lb gains in just a few short weeks. While the more experienced gear and PH users are sitting back and chuckling at their often-misplaced enthusiasm.

Let’s stand back, do a little math and discuss what is REALLY happening in their bodies, and dispel some of these Johnny come lately HUGE gain stories.

We will make some assumptions using our hypothetical user Johnny. Johnny, after perusing the boards he sees others tales of HUGE gains using pro-hormone X (it could and also is “real� steroid X) and decides to take the plunge. He weighs 175 after a couple of year’s of haphazard and mostly unsuccessful training. Johnny is fairly young and has an average metabolism of about 3,500 kcals a day before gear use (most gear/PH’s RAISE metabolism somewhat) and this number is important to know because if Johnny doesn’t gain even one once in the next three weeks he will still require about 73,500 kcals. Now if Johnny is to gain the 25 lbs of muscle (or muscle and some fat) he will need to consume another 87,500 kcals for a total of 161,000 calories.

This means over the next three weeks to gain the 1.19 lbs each day, Johnny will be consuming 7,665 calories a day! REALLY?? Do you REALLY think this is doable for a 175 lb trainee? TRY IT AND TELL ME ABOUT THE REALITY OF IT! And the reality of the matter is the number given is a LOW number because it doesn’t take into account the metabolic cost of synthesizing new muscle tissue nor the increased metabolic rate that typically comes with gear use.

So where are these guys getting the numbers they are posting? Well I know for a fact that some of these numbers are coming strait out their ass because they are “bending the truth� to make themselves look better. I have seen some of these guys post about the 25 lbs they gained and kept, then 2 months later said they did it again, and then a month or two later once again—OK, I believe that--and also in the Easter bunny.

What is really happening? Well we know that most gear causes a HUGE increase in creatine synthesis, BAM-Johnny just added some scale weight. Nutrient loading goes way up too, each additional gram of glycogen in the muscle cell brings three grams of water along for the ride, BAM Johnny is thrilled! He just got “heavier�. Compound this with the fact that Johnny wanted to make the most out of the cycle so bumped his volume and frequency up a bunch and now he is even storing more nutrients!

And of course with the super-strong gear and pro-level training he is doing, well, he’s eating like never before. And BEFORE what he is eating makes it out the other end, he now has another 5-7 lbs of “stuff� in his digestive tract. And yes, he is adding some bodyfat, but he doesn’t really care because the scale keeps going UP!!!

We just accounted for a BIG chunk of Johnny’s so called huge gains. But how do we account for the strength increases he is seeing? Well the creatine loading sure helped some. Couple that with better recovery because he is finally actually getting enough protein. But does that explain the weights going up so fast? No it doesn’t, but the increased nerve excitability gear provides sure does. Yes, good gear/PH’s increase the ability of the neural network in your body to “fire�. You get faster, harder contractions when this occurs and as a result can lift much more weight.

Now before you tell me I’m just trying to rain on poor Johnny’s parade I will tell you that is not the case. All the things I just described are for the most part good, and yes, I KNOW Johnny also gained a REASONABLE amount of muscle. But it damn sure is nothing close to what Johnny will probably go online and report. A properly designed cycle can net you huge gains if done properly and backed up with good training and a proper diet and supplementation program. But these types of gains are not amassed in 2-4 weeks on low dose gear or PH’s. The REAL muscle gains are just starting in 2-3 weeks, not ending there!"

 

[lifted]

I am also thinking of doing my first cycle with Tren 50mg/day and d-bol 30mg/day
for 2 weeks and 4-8 weeks off.
What kind of gains I can expect from this ?
Diet - 400 gm of protein , 200 gm of carb , 50-100 gm Fat from EFA.
PCT would be - Nolva 40mg/day + clomid 50mg/day for 4 weeks+ Milk Thristle.
I have done a 4 week Nordiol, 4 AD cycle in the past and right now on igf1 ( 19th day ).

Wt - 168
Ht - 5'9

If you want me to be completely upfront with you, I think you should first forget about the AAS and concentrate on proper diet/training. 168lbs. is showing that you haven't been training that long yet, or you still don't have your diet/training up to par. AAS useage now will only dissapoint you....and I would hold off on the IGF to boot....

 

[ManBeast]

Yes.. 168 at 5'9" all you should need to get at least 10-15 more pounds easily is diet/training.

ManBeast

 

[wolvie]

I was 143 last year and now 168 . I was thinking of doing couple of 2 weeks cycles to reach my genetic max potential cause I am already 31 now and want to do it fast.
. Goal is around 200 lbs .
But I guess you guys are right . I am going to concentrate on diet and basic power training ( Bench, squat , deadlifts) and forget about AAS.
Thanks guys. :box:

 

[ManBeast]

25 pounds in a year is awesome work, especially if you kept your BF in check while doing that. Congrats and keep up the hard work.

ManBeast

 

[size]

originally posted by Iron Addict:

"........These younger guys that are all caught-up in their 2-4 week cycles are all over the boards these days posting their cycle logs and raving about their 10-30 lb gains in just a few short weeks. While the more experienced gear and PH users are sitting back and chuckling at their often-misplaced enthusiasm. ............ A properly designed cycle can net you huge gains if done properly and backed up with good training and a proper diet and supplementation program. But these types of gains are not amassed in 2-4 weeks on low dose gear or PH’s. The REAL muscle gains are just starting in 2-3 weeks, not ending there!"

I believe that the point of short cycles is NOT to make huge gains. Rather, the objective is to make modest gains that would not be achieved naturally in the same period of time. Furthermore, using such a method leads to a healthier lifestyle.

Not everyone, myslef included, wants to look like a professional bodybuilder. Certainly, if serious mass is ones ultimate goal then longer cycles are a better choice. However, the longer cycle have more consequences that go along with it.

 

[KingMeso]

I believe that the point of short cycles is NOT to make huge gains. Rather, the objective is to make modest gains that would not be achieved naturally in the same period of time. Furthermore, using such a method leads to a healthier lifestyle.

Not everyone, myslef included, wants to look like a professional bodybuilder. Certainly, if serious mass is ones ultimate goal then longer cycles are a better choice. However, the longer cycle have more consequences that go along with it.

Exactly

 

[Chalk User]

So if someone used the Tren/Winny stack w/o the Test like the article was saying wouldn't they have a hard time getting their dick hard. All the things you hear about Tren being suppressive applys right away doesn't it. Or could you slip by with a Tren/Winny stack for 3 weeks w/o losing your hard-ons.

 

[size]

So if someone used the Tren/Winny stack w/o the Test like the article was saying wouldn't they have a hard time getting their dick hard. All the things you hear about Tren being suppressive applys right away doesn't it. Or could you slip by with a Tren/Winny stack for 3 weeks w/o losing your hard-ons.

There are numerous errors in the article I posted. Specifically, I think the cycle suggestions are poor. I believe that using test suspension or test prop is essential. I also believe that 4 or 5 weeks would be the ideal length.

 

[Chalk User]

Size, glad to hear that I'm not crazy in thinking that Tren should have Test even in a "short" cycle. I am not disagreeing with your choice of 4 to 5 weeks but what, in particular, makes you choose that amount of time. Hell, while I'm asking your opinion, what do you think about Tren A @ 75mgs/eod with Test Prop @ 125mgs/eod and oral Winstrol @ 50mgs/ed for a 4 week short cycle. What about those choices in a 2 weeker?

 

[Matthew D]

Only problem I would see would getting the test/tren levels up quickly. I know that I usually have to wait on tren about 2 weeks or so to start seeing anything even though I know that it is working..

 

[Chalk User]

So 2 weeks is out of the question. I wasn't that attached to the idea anyway. How about 4 weeks though? Any opinions?

 

[size]

I am not disagreeing with your choice of 4 to 5 weeks but what, in particular, makes you choose that amount of time.

I have no facts that indicate 4 or 5 weeks, but rather this is just an opinion of mine. Consequently, differing opinions is understandable. I believe that 4 or 5 weeks is adequate time to allow muscle/strength gains and still recover quickly while keeping health risks to a minimum.

Hell, while I'm asking your opinion, what do you think about Tren A @ 75mgs/eod with Test Prop @ 125mgs/eod and oral Winstrol @ 50mgs/ed for a 4 week short cycle. What about those choices in a 2 weeker?

4 weeks would be a better option in my opinion. Also, I think base compounds would be better option but your cycle should still yield positive gains. If you would change the test prop to test suspension at 75-100mg ed, you would probably see better results. Remember, when injecting 125mg of prop you are not actually getting 125mg of testosterone b/c you need to account for the ester weight. With base compounds, you get the amount injected. I am just not confident in the ability to make worth while gains in 2 weeks.

 

[bioman]

Excellent discussion thus far, though i haven't read all the postings in minutia.

Speaking solely from a PH perspective I have to agree on the short cycle concept. I've always been of the belief that shorter is better but now I have see/felt the effects of a 12 weeker and I can see exactly what Size and the Euro article he posted were driving at.

Even wth HCG, nolva and letro this has been a fairly tough recovery compared to the 2-6 weekers I've done. I've even used 7-keto and i can tell this has helped the cortisol situation a little, but it's taken 5 weeks to get me feeling like myself again. In that time I've lost a lot of size on my arms and gained it on my waist

On the shorter cycles I've been able to keep size, strength and positive body comp very easily.

I'll never go on that long again..ever.

 

[Chalk User]

Size, I've never used Test Suspension before. Are the shot less painful than the Prop. If so I'm sold on it. I do alot of box squats and having a painful fucking knot in my ass is not very helpful when it comes to that!Thanks for the tip on the ester weight. I always forget to figure that in. By the way, I wasn't trying to see if you had facts per se just get your opinion. So please don't think I was calling you out or anything. The short cycle thing is something I am going to do and I trying to get it all dialed in. Maybe we should start a new thread: "Chalk User: the short cycle experiment." and have everyone lend their collective ideas. I could then post a definative short cycle experience so everyone could quit speculating. Just a thought....
Signed,
The Lab Rat:blink:

 

[size]

By the way, I wasn't trying to see if you had facts per se just get your opinion. So please don't think I was calling you out or anything.

No offense at all. I was actually just trying to make it clear that I did NOT have facts. Instead, this is just an idea that is bouncing around and good for discussion.

 

[mulletman]

Man this post got me thinking, and I really hate that. Unfortunatly I already have a 12 week cycle of test e and equi on hand. would it still benefit me to do 2 six week cycles. or up the amount and do 2 five week cycles.

 

[ManBeast]

Test e and eq are not meant for short cycles.

ManBeast

 

[b-boy]

Test e and eq are not meant for short cycles.

ManBeast

if used in layered proticols then there just fine!!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[ManBeast]

Meh... layering, crusing. They are both staying on for very long times, not exactly the "short cycle, then recovery" concept though from what I've read.

ManBeast

 

[b-boy]

Meh... layering, crusing. They are both staying on for very long times, not exactly the "short cycle, then recovery" concept though from what I've read.

ManBeast

please explain! how is what L.Rea suggests "staying on" or "cruising", your confusing the **** out of me :think:

 

[ManBeast]

Maybe not L. Rea in this case... I have other issues with him (the claim in "building the perfect beast" that 4-oht helps recover HTPA function for one). But I don't see how an ester that stays in the system for so long can be well utilized in a short cycle. That's what confuses the **** outta me with regards to EQ and enan in a short cycle.

ManBeast

 

[jminis]

wow I'm glad to see this thread is still somewhat alive. Now that I'm back I will post my cycle and give an update as to how much of my gains I've kept, as of now my PCT is over and I've been off the nolva for over a week. I'll start the thread up a little later because I have to go learn about spinal stabilization. Later J

 

[theseus]

Any updates on this thread?
I like the idea of shorter cycles, especially the health aspects. During my last 10 week cycle my BP was up to 160 towards the end, and my doctor was not happy with me.
But a more productive post cycle seems to be the biggest benefit to me.

 

[Sticks]

wow I'm glad to see this thread is still somewhat alive. Now that I'm back I will post my cycle and give an update as to how much of my gains I've kept, as of now my PCT is over and I've been off the nolva for over a week. I'll start the thread up a little later because I have to go learn about spinal stabilization. Later J

How about an update?

 

[jminis]

How about an update?

Check out this link for the cycle update.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19178

I actually just got done running the exact cycle again and I'm now almost 2 weeks into PCT. I'll post more about that later but for right now take a look at my last 40 days cycle and full results through PCT. later J

 

[blown_stang]

This is great stuff. I'm looking to do my first cycle this winter. Getting my hands on some eq, that's all I have just yet. Not sure if I can fit that into a short cycle though, off the top of my head. Need to do some more research.

 

[spongebob]

i have enjoyed reading the threads.very helpful and thought provoking for a newbie,thanks everyone that has contributed their thoughts.

 

[size]

This is great stuff. I'm looking to do my first cycle this winter. Getting my hands on some eq, that's all I have just yet. Not sure if I can fit that into a short cycle though, off the top of my head.

One could certainly use EQ in a short cycle but you would want to use boldenone base or prop.

 

[kojie]

One could certainly use EQ in a short cycle but you would want to use boldenone base or prop.

what wr your dosages of TNE, Bold base and winny?

--kojie

 

[size]

what wr your dosages of TNE, Bold base and winny?

I think you mean Jminis. His log is in the cycle section. The amount of any drug used will be dependent on a few factors.

 

[kojie]

I think you mean Jminis. His log is in the cycle section. The amount of any drug used will be dependent on a few factors.

oops sorry dude.. lolz

--kojie

 

[jminis]

oops sorry dude.. lolz

--kojie

My dosages changed every 8days or so.
TB started at approx 120mg/day and was cycled down to 50mg/day
Bold Base started at 100mg/day went up to 120mg/day and back down to approx 50mg/day
Winny started at 25mg/day and ended at 75mg/day.

 

[jminis]

BTW I updated my "Finally a look at my 40day cycle" log with my results from my second run along with some thoughts.

 

[kojie]

still pretty impressive for a short cycle dude...

this really has me thinking

 

[N4cer]

One could certainly use EQ in a short cycle but you would want to use boldenone base or prop.

As mine is. Bold Prop.
I'll post results.

 

[jminis]

n4cer keep us posted on the bold prop. Let us know when it starts kicking in and how's the pain?

 

[blown_stang]

One could certainly use EQ in a short cycle but you would want to use boldenone base or prop.

Where can I read more about the differences among base, prop, etc? I'm getting them mixed up...

 

[size]

Where can I read more about the differences among base, prop, etc? I'm getting them mixed up...

Read about esters. "Base" is simply the hormone without an ester attached.
These are estimates to account for ester weight.
suspension(base) : 100%
Propionate : 79%
Phenylpropionate : 66%
Isocaproate : 71%
enanthate : 69%
Cypionate : 67%
Undecanoate : 61%

 

[N4cer]

Day 2 of the bold prop. only 1/2cc (50mg) each day. Pretty sore, but no worse than a prop/tren mix. And I have a slight touch of prop flu today, but I haven't gotten enough rest, so that could be it as well.

 

[blown_stang]

Read about esters. "Base" is simply the hormone without an ester attached.
These are estimates to account for ester weight.
suspension(base) : 100%
Propionate : 79%
Phenylpropionate : 66%
Isocaproate : 71%
enanthate : 69%
Cypionate : 67%
Undecanoate : 61%

I see. So test enanth would be a bad choice for a 5wk cycle?

 

[size]

I see. So test enanth would be a bad choice for a 5wk cycle?

Yes. Test suspension or prop would be desired.

 

[blown_stang]

Read about esters. "Base" is simply the hormone without an ester attached.
These are estimates to account for ester weight.
suspension(base) : 100%
Propionate : 79%
Phenylpropionate : 66%
Isocaproate : 71%
enanthate : 69%
Cypionate : 67%
Undecanoate : 61%

OK, I'm having trouble telling if this is base, prop, etc. It's all in Spanish. Fort Dodge brand eq, 50mg/ml. :-/

 

[size]

Fort Dodge EQ has undecylenate ester. This is not ideal for a short cycle.