Running Serm inverse to ADT??

[DR.D]

Dr D. Can this protocol for PCT be used for a short 3, 4 or even 8 week oral cycle (SD, PP, HD)? Or would it be too much? :blink:

Yeah, in general it's probably a bit too much for short (like 1 month) oral only cycles.

 

[THA GONZ]

It's a controversial topic, but I say avoid it. Use RXT, letro or raloxifene for on-cycle gyno prevention, and save Nolva strictly for gyno abortion should it develop. If you use a SERM during the cycle, it definitely reduces it's test recovering ability during PCT. At least 4 wks is required between SERM uses before you can successfully rechallenge in my experience, 6-8 wks is better still. There also seems to exist a cross tolerance phenomena with Nolva and Clomid in this regard.

Thanks for the info DR.D!!

 

[Gordyr]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I really wish I had seen it before beginning my PCT.

I ran Superdrol for 3 weeks at 10/20/20. I made gains of 13 lb's with only a little extra bodyfat. Now for PCT I had at my disposal both Rebound XT and Nolvadex.

On the recommendation of a few others I took only the Nolvadex for PCT. I did a 3 week PCT of 40/40/20 and yesterday was my last day. Overall I feel pretty nicely recovered however my sex drive is not completely recovered. It's there, just nowhere near as strong as it normally is.

Should I continue with Nolva for another week at 20mg per day? Or do you think I would get any benefit from using the Rebound XT I have lying around. As I said I wish I had seen this thread earlier and ran Rebound XT inverse with the Nolva. I don't have access to any HCG so I was just wondering what you guru's would recommend I do with the products I have at my disposal. Or should I just leave it as it is and let my sex drive get back to normal on its own.

Thanks guys!

 

[ABiLiTY]

Dr. D

In 4 weeks ill be comming off my cycle consisting of

1test weeks 1-10
test prop 1-3, 11-14
test E 1-10
tren 5-12
hcg 11-14

I was going to follow ur pct guidlines outlined in this thread. Using:

Lx, ACT,ATD, Nolva, Clomid, Fenu, dhea. I'll also be using zma, powerful, camp, and cissus

What changes in this pct would u make if you had gyno symptoms?

Ive had a lump since about the first week. I have no puffyness, sensitivity, or itching. I've been running nolva throughout my cycle in the upwards of 100mg's.

Ive heard of others having similar symtoms that have gone away once they got off test. hopfully i'm in the same boat.

I was thinking of just running the standard nolva 40,40,20,20 along with clomid for 4 weeks, with everything else about the same as you have outlined.

 

[DR.D]

... Should I continue with Nolva for another week at 20mg per day? Or do you think I would get any benefit from using the Rebound XT I have lying around. As I said I wish I had seen this thread earlier and ran Rebound XT inverse with the Nolva. I don't have access to any HCG so I was just wondering what you guru's would recommend I do with the products I have at my disposal. Or should I just leave it as it is and let my sex drive get back to normal on its own.

Thanks guys!

If you only did SD for 3 wks and never exceeded 20mg, plus you have 3wks of 20-40mg Nolva under your belt for PCT, you should be fine to just taper now with RXT. 25mg for another wk or two if you just wanna play it safe, but it is unlikely to regenerate your libido at this point.

Some people complain about loss of libido while on SD cycles and/or while using RXT for PCTs. I haven't have a prob with either yet, but Nolva is notorious for this. I try to avoid it at all costs (for other reasons too) and stick with Clomid.

The PCT I recommended earlier was really just a generic guideline for a longer, more serious shutdown that you likely experienced with your cycle. You could have probably gotten away with a few weeks of Clomid @ 100mg or a month of "natural" therapy (fenugreek/DHEA). Remember though, I have experimented so much over the years, but at my own risk. Overkill is always better than underkill when in doubt about PCT.

Honestly, if I were you at this point, I'd add 100-200mg DHEA/d for another wk or two and see if that helps. ActivaTe is also very effective for libido restoration if you don't have any hCG. ACT does it's magic without elevating estrogen too (like hCG will) so it's a better choice for you IMO now that you are not on a SERM or AI. High daily doses of a Maca/HGW stack or even solo high potency Ginseng extract can be effective too from my experience.

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D

In 4 weeks ill be comming off my cycle consisting of

1test weeks 1-10
test prop 1-3, 11-14
test E 1-10
tren 5-12
hcg 11-14

I was going to follow ur pct guidlines outlined in this thread. Using:

Lx, ACT,ATD, Nolva, Clomid, Fenu, dhea. I'll also be using zma, powerful, camp, and cissus

What changes in this pct would u make if you had gyno symptoms?

Ive had a lump since about the first week. I have no puffyness, sensitivity, or itching. I've been running nolva throughout my cycle in the upwards of 100mg's.

Ive heard of others having similar symtoms that have gone away once they got off test. hopfully i'm in the same boat.

I was thinking of just running the standard nolva 40,40,20,20 along with clomid for 4 weeks, with everything else about the same as you have outlined.

I'd be very concerned about a SERM based PCT after you had been on Nolva (up to 100mg/d) for the prior 13-14 wks. I'd stop the Nolva cold turkey right now, because 4 wks is the minimum clean-out time in my experience before SERM can be rechallenged in PCT successfully. Start using letro (0.25mg/d) or better yet RXT (75mg/d) instead to hold the lump in check unlit then. If you have no pain or sensitivity, that's a great sign.

Also, just be careful with the cissus, but the outline wouldn't really change otherwise except I'd add 2 more wks in there somewhere. Probably another wk of higher dose Clomid up front (75-100mg/d) and another wk of low dose Nolva toward the end.

 

[skull]

Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.

ok Im trying to understand this new way of PCT but have some questions when you talk about E suppression is it writen in stone that ATD doesnt suppress?The SERM I understand [its keeping you from gyno while your body recoveres]I can see using ATD while on cycle [itchy nips]Maybe for a short time while on pct[after a severe and long cycle]But whats the deal with down ramping nolva while upramping ATD? at the end of pct is that going to set up a big chance of getting gyno?For me PP or MTRN 4 weeks will be as far as I go and serm will cover that?Not to change the sub but I ended up buying UHOTTER and tried a stand alone 3weeker and started feeling lousy [low back, mild headake,and blote]think Ill do better will RXT?:blink:

 

[ABiLiTY]

Appreciate it Dr D.

why should i worry about cissus?

 

[DR.D]

ok Im trying to understand this new way of PCT but have some questions when you talk about E suppression is it writen in stone that ATD doesnt suppress?The SERM I understand [its keeping you from gyno while your body recoveres]I can see using ATD while on cycle [itchy nips]Maybe for a short time while on pct[after a severe and long cycle]But whats the deal with down ramping nolva while upramping ATD? at the end of pct is that going to set up a big chance of getting gyno?For me PP or MTRN 4 weeks will be as far as I go and serm will cover that?Not to change the sub but I ended up buying UHOTTER and tried a stand alone 3weeker and started feeling lousy [low back, mild headake,and blote]think Ill do better will RXT?:blink:

An AI is rather pointless on PCT, especially while a SERM is being used. Testosterone levels are necessarily low, or else PCT would not be required in the first place. If test levels are that low, then what's the need for an AI, since estrogen conversion would be proportionally very low most likely? However, RXT is an exceptional AI because it seems to elevate test levels regardless of it's effect on estrogen, so it is not directly suppressive at all. If anything, it's a good PCT option, even solo, because it not only reduces estrogen but seems to elevate test by another additional, mechanism. It shows a clear advantage is effectiveness and speed of action related to gyno treatment too (whether on cycle or PCT), at similar doses to Nolva. Plus RXT acts as a mild, central anti-androgen, so it's exceptionally well suited for fast LH recovery during PCT, even more so that SERMs, and may explain it's additional test raising effects.

A big reason to down-ramp Nolva and start elevating RXT at the end of PCT is to discourage any chance of SERM induced estrogen rebound that may promote gyno. People don't get gyno from the RXT, it's probably from not going long enough with the SERM (like 3-4 wks only, instead of 4-8 wks like I usually recommend). As PCT goes on, test levels continue to climb. That means more estrogen being formed, but SERM intake is decreasing, so can you see how elevated estrogen self-limits the effectiveness of a SERM long term? An AI early in the PCT is not necessarily required, but it's use later in the cycle is a good idea in most cases. It's good in low doses up front too if aromatizable compounds were used on cycle or if hCG were being used toward the end. It just helps smooth out the cycle and improve speed and efficiency of recovery, whether is really "needed" or not.

Sure people have used SERM solo for decades with great success, but RXT can be very useful into PCT. I at least don't think RXT is detrimental or the cause of recent cases of latent gyno being reported.

What is the active ingredient in UHOTTER? I must know before I can equate or compare it's effectiveness to RXT.

 

[DR.D]

Appreciate it Dr D.

why should i worry about cissus?

Sure thing man.

I havn't tried cissus, but close, trusted friends of mine have expressed concern to me that it seems to have adverse effects on pre-existing gyno when used even at normal doses. Just be careful is all I'm saying, until I know any better.

 

[jmh80]

I think the active in UHer is 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta-1,4,6-etioallocholtriene

 

[jmh80]

Here are all the ingrediants:
ALRI Proprietary blend includes: Avena Sativa Extract 20:1, Agaricus bisporus extract., 6-acetoxy-3-hydroxy-17-keto-etioallocholane, 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene, Condensed Agaricus bisporus extract.
135mg

 

[DR.D]

Here are all the ingrediants:
ALRI Proprietary blend includes: Avena Sativa Extract 20:1, Agaricus bisporus extract., 6-acetoxy-3-hydroxy-17-keto-etioallocholane, 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene, Condensed Agaricus bisporus extract.
135mg

So basically a 17-aa ATD derivative with some added, exotic herbals. I haven't heard any feedback on it's benefits as an anti-e, but I hear it's mostly used as an anti-cort. One person I've talked to that has run blood on it claimed his liver enzymes were not elevated by it's use at suggested doses, but I can't find any pre-existing info on this compound anywhere and can't find the quantity of the main active from the label info, so I can't honestly say one way or another on this product.

 

[Gordyr]

If you only did SD for 3 wks and never exceeded 20mg, plus you have 3wks of 20-40mg Nolva under your belt for PCT, you should be fine to just taper now with RXT. 25mg for another wk or two if you just wanna play it safe, but it is unlikely to regenerate your libido at this point.

Some people complain about loss of libido while on SD cycles and/or while using RXT for PCTs. I haven't have a prob with either yet, but Nolva is notorious for this. I try to avoid it at all costs (for other reasons too) and stick with Clomid.

The PCT I recommended earlier was really just a generic guideline for a longer, more serious shutdown that you likely experienced with your cycle. You could have probably gotten away with a few weeks of Clomid @ 100mg or a month of "natural" therapy (fenugreek/DHEA). Remember though, I have experimented so much over the years, but at my own risk. Overkill is always better than underkill when in doubt about PCT.

Honestly, if I were you at this point, I'd add 100-200mg DHEA/d for another wk or two and see if that helps. ActivaTe is also very effective for libido restoration if you don't have any hCG. ACT does it's magic without elevating estrogen too (like hCG will) so it's a better choice for you IMO now that you are not on a SERM or AI. High daily doses of a Maca/HGW stack or even solo high potency Ginseng extract can be effective too from my experience.

Thanks for the thorough advice Dr. D. It's very much appreciated.

 

[DR.D]

Thanks for the thorough advice Dr. D. It's very much appreciated.

Not a prob my man. I just hope it helps. I know how libido issues suck! I've gotten pretty good at avoiding them, but it still usually happens to some extent toward the end of a long cycle no matter what.

 

[ABiLiTY]

thanx Dr D.

hmm... i was using cissus in the first 4 weeks when this lump developed.

 

[DR.D]

thanx Dr D.

hmm... i was using cissus in the first 4 weeks when this lump developed.

Anytime friend.

I've been too scared to try it! I believe the feedback I got and haven't even bothered to study the chemicals in it yet. If they are estrogenic, it may explain why they are so effective for connective tissue repair.

 

[Lithuanian Bear]

Are the Products (Clomid) you get at research -ology legit? When I enlarge the picture's it states not for human consumption it also states research only?:wtf:

 

[Lithuanian Bear]

thanx Dr D.

hmm... i was using cissus in the first 4 weeks when this lump developed.

Wait a minute you noticed a lump? don't scare me like that I have been using cissus for 5 weeks ? Please elaborate! also Dr.D it is supposed to be anabolic for some (not me) so how can it be estrogenic and anabolic I am confused almost as much as the above post of mine. :wtf:
One thing is for sure nothing ever healed my tendons and joints as good as cissus!!

 

[DR.D]

Are the Products (Clomid) you get at research -ology legit? When I enlarge the picture's it states not for human consumption it also states research only?:wtf:

I've lab tested many of them, like CNW and IBE brands, and they are pure quality. Nevertheless, they are not "suitable for human use" without a doctors Rx. They are sold only for research use.

 

[DR.D]

Wait a minute you noticed a lump? don't scare me like that I have been using cissus for 5 weeks ? Please elaborate! also Dr.D it is supposed to be anabolic for some (not me) so how can it be estrogenic and anabolic I am confused almost as much as the above post of mine. :wtf:
One thing is for sure nothing ever healed my tendons and joints as good as cissus!!

Estrogens are very anabolic in connective tissue (bones, cart, tendons, skin, etc..) I wish someone would send me some info or a link or better yet a break down of the active constituents in an average cissus preparation, because I don't know what the hormonal principals are in it and don't really have time to research it right now. I've just heard it's "tits in a bottle" by some of the guys I talk to that have tried it. Most people say like you though, that it is good for joints. Just be careful and keep the doses as low as possible if gyno is a prob.

 

[YonkersCBR954]

Dr. D ive heard of people using RXT for 6wkSD cycles but the last 1-2 weeks starting the RXT at high of 100mg-75mg before PCT ...and then while on PCT at 75-50 and tappering down from there along with fenugreek and 6oxo but increasing the dosage of the Fenu and 6oxo till the end of PCT....what do you think of using a PCT similar to this for a 6 wk cycle? and also adding in activaTe too ...

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D ive heard of people using RXT for 6wkSD cycles but the last 1-2 weeks starting the RXT at high of 100mg-75mg before PCT ...and then while on PCT at 75-50 and tappering down from there along with fenugreek and 6oxo but increasing the dosage of the Fenu and 6oxo till the end of PCT....what do you think of using a PCT similar to this for a 6 wk cycle? and also adding in activaTe too ...

Yeah, I like that idea. I've had good results at avoiding suppression while using RXT on cycle, so I can see starting it a few wks early at higher doses. Also, ramping up the fen is a must for sure. I just don't know about adding 6-oxo though. I'd think it would mostly be wasted because the higher binding affinity of RXT would compete and win for the aromatase enzyme. What may work better is to just replace the RXT with 6-oxo at some point later in the PCT.

 

[YonkersCBR954]

Yeah, I like that idea. I've had good results at avoiding suppression while using RXT on cycle, so I can see starting it a few wks early at higher doses. Also, ramping up the fen is a must for sure. I just don't know about adding 6-oxo though. I'd think it would mostly be wasted because the higher binding affinity of RXT would compete and win for the aromatase enzyme. What may work better is to just replace the RXT with 6-oxo at some point later in the PCT.

i see ...so what about the last 2 weeks using the 6oxo or could i just get away with just not using it at all? ...how would i go about adding in activaTe in with a pct like this ...

 

[DR.D]

i see ...so what about the last 2 weeks using the 6oxo or could i just get away with just not using it at all? ...how would i go about adding in activaTe in with a pct like this ...

Either way would be fine. It would be interesting to see what the 6-oxo addition would yield, or you could just finish off with the RXT. The ActivaTe could be added a few wks before or after PCT is initiated. 6wks total is my current suggestion for ACT though.

 

[YonkersCBR954]

Either way would be fine. It would be interesting to see what the 6-oxo addition would yield, or you could just finish off with the RXT. The ActivaTe could be added a few wks before or after PCT is initiated. 6wks total is my current suggestion for ACT though.

cool thanks for the info ...i think im going to do it with the 6-oxo and add in the acticaTe also ...im going to order everything this week and ill post on how everything goes ...

 

[Basso]

I suggest it this way to incorporate into the above PCT scheme:

wk-1: ACT half dose
wk1: ACT full dose, fen 3 caps
wk2: ACT full dose, fen 4 caps
wk3: ACT full dose, fen 5 caps
wk4: ACT full dose, fen 6 caps
wk5: ACT full dose
wk6: ACT half dose

ACT definitely helps refresh the end of a stale cycle. I once started it 2 wks before PCT and that worked well too. I have used it 8 wks straight, but the pumps and libido effects died after 7 wks for me. Don't milk it too long, unless it's still working for you. In that case, go ahead and stay on it if you want. Some have told me it has worked past 2 months for them, I wish it had for me. For me, 6-7 wks seemed like a perfect rotation time, then 3-4 wks off before starting again.

With the fenugreek, it only works for 3-4 wks at a time and must be ramped every wk, then you must break for at least 2 wks to restore benefits. You can cycle fen 4on/2off or 3on/1off forever. I use Nature's Way or NOW caps (500-650mg/cap). I always include fen in PCT and from now on ACT too. ACT makes it so easy to keep gaining during PCT and the usual sides from the SERM are not evident. Try it and you will be a believer!

Thanks Dr D I've been trying to find out more about ActivaTE and you've answered most of my questions, I think I'm goin' give it a whirl in my PCT.

 

[mmorpheuss]

Hey DR.D....just curious as to how the recent availability of Toremifene changes things??

Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.

 

[DR.D]

Hey DR.D....just curious as to how the recent availability of Toremifene changes things??

This is my general suggestion for a Toremifene PCT protocol:
For simple, 4wk oral only cycles,

wk1: 60-120mg/d
wk2: 30-60mg/d
wk3: 30mg/d
wk4: 30mg/d

But for long 5-12wk cycles with multiple, layered anabolics,

wk1: 120mg/d
wk2: 90-120mg/d
wk3: 60-90mg/d
wk4: 30-60mg/d
wk5: 30mg/d
wk6: 30mg/d
wk7: (30mg only if needed)
wk8: (30mg only if needed)

No other SERM is needed. Nolva can be subbed in for toremifene at wk 3-5 (just like with the Clomid example) for the sake of economy on long PCTs, but they should probably not be stacked simultaneously. Doses depend on your response really. I always did best starting at a full 120mg. I never took doses higher than that because it was not necessary.

 

[POTR33]

This is my general suggestion for a Toremifene PCT protocol:
For simple, 4wk oral only cycles,

wk1: 60-120mg/d
wk2: 30-60mg/d
wk3: 30mg/d
wk4: 30mg/d

With this protocol, would you run it inverse to ATD (as you stated to do with the other SERM's). Or is the toremifene good enough standalone.

 

[Wanker527]

With this protocol, would you run it inverse to ATD (as you stated to do with the other SERM's). Or is the toremifene good enough standalone.

My question also, as I'm just finishing a 12 week test/4 week superdrol cycle.

I can't believe I'm actually excited to see how my upcoming PCT goes

 

[Wanker527]

Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.

also, those doses on the Lean Xtreme seem off considering each cap is 50mg, and your scheme is in 25mg increments. also the bottle recommends a maximum of 6 caps a day (2 caps/3 times daily = 300mg), so your recommendation seems awfully low.

am i missing something?

 

[DR.D]

also, those doses on the Lean Xtreme seem off considering each cap is 50mg, and your scheme is in 25mg increments. also the bottle recommends a maximum of 6 caps a day (2 caps/3 times daily = 300mg), so your recommendation seems awfully low.

am i missing something?

The doses are low that I suggested. The minimum. 50mg increments are more compatible with the caps available. You can do much higher doses than that too, but I always try to give the most economical advice. I'll even buy empty gel caps and cut my own caps in half if I can! Still, you can't go wrong with 150,100,50. Through I know some who do much higher doses with no ill effects, just for the added fat loss that massive doses deliver. For an anti-catabolic effect in PCT, the lower doses are fine I think. If taking the caps on an empty stomach or with no fat or emulsifiers, the higher doses are strongly suggested because of lower absorption. Also, you can take around 6caps/day if dieting or on stims because cortisol will be elevated in such cases.

 

[DR.D]

With this protocol, would you run it inverse to ATD (as you stated to do with the other SERM's). Or is the toremifene good enough standalone.

Yes. I would suggest a modified form of the original inverse protocol. Instead of 3 phases, just 2. Like this:

wk1: Tor 60-120mg/d, RXT 25mg
wk2: Tor 30-60mg/d, RXT 25mg
wk3: Tor 30mg/d, RXT 50mg
wk4: Tor 30mg/d, RXT 50mg

A less dramatic taper with a lower ending dose of RXT. You still get the benefits of increased LH output upfront, but don't risk the adverse libido effects at the end from 75mg of RXT. It should still be very effective. After the PCT, you could even trail off with 25-50mg of RXT indefinitely IMO.

 

[DR.D]

... I can't believe I'm actually excited to see how my upcoming PCT goes

Me too! Toremifene/RXT plus ACT, it's on now! It's really amazing how good the PCT options are these days. It's like the dream stack.

 

[RipdnTxs2]

Damn good info in this thread, I have been on Cissus for about 7 months and in the last 3 months or so I have been getting THO ( titty hard on ) alot for no apparent reason, I even asked my Doc. who said it may be the proscar, but I have been proscar for about 6 years, my joints are ALOT better since the addition of Cissus but I am on a S1+ cycle now and it is a little worse, I may reduce my Cissus and see if it helps, once again the info here is priceless........

 

[Wanker527]

The doses are low that I suggested. The minimum. 50mg increments are more compatible with the caps available. You can do much higher doses than that too, but I always try to give the most economical advice. I'll even buy empty gel caps and cut my own caps in half if I can! Still, you can't go wrong with 150,100,50. Through I know some who do much higher doses with no ill effects, just for the added fat loss that massive doses deliver. For an anti-catabolic effect in PCT, the lower doses are fine I think. If taking the caps on an empty stomach or with no fat or emulsifiers, the higher doses are strongly suggested because of lower absorption. Also, you can take around 6caps/day if dieting or on stims because cortisol will be elevated in such cases.

awesome! thanks Dr.D, your help is priceless

 

[mymilkexpired]

Great info in this thread, I'm learning a lot here. Thanks Dr. D

 

[Ronin13]

I apologize up front for the possible silly question... however.... what is the full product name of RXT?

I am about to start my 3 or 4 week SD cycle and would like to use the Toremifene/RXT plus ACT. I already have the Toremifene, just need the RXT and ACT.

Thanks.

Me too! Toremifene/RXT plus ACT, it's on now! It's really amazing how good the PCT options are these days. It's like the dream stack.

 

[mmorpheuss]

I apologize up front for the possible silly question... however.... what is the full product name of RXT?

I am about to start my 3 or 4 week SD cycle and would like to use the Toremifene/RXT plus ACT. I already have the Toremifene, just need the RXT and ACT.

Thanks.

Rebound XT by Designer Supplements.
Rebound Reloaded should be out soon though.

 

[Ronin13]

Thanks mmorpheuss!

Would you recommend waiting for the rebound reloaded?

 

[mmorpheuss]

I'm sure once those guys are finished tinkering with it- which I'm assuming they're doing, as I haven't been following that too closely- It will be well worth the wait.

 

[Ronin13]

I am sure you are right. Considering I have waited this long... what is another month or so????

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[BB12]

Yes. I would suggest a modified form of the original inverse protocol. Instead of 3 phases, just 2. Like this:

wk1: Tor 60-120mg/d, RXT 25mg
wk2: Tor 30-60mg/d, RXT 25mg
wk3: Tor 30mg/d, RXT 50mg
wk4: Tor 30mg/d, RXT 50mg

A less dramatic taper with a lower ending dose of RXT. You still get the benefits of increased LH output upfront, but don't risk the adverse libido effects at the end from 75mg of RXT. It should still be very effective. After the PCT, you could even trail off with 25-50mg of RXT indefinitely IMO.

so do you do 75,50,25 of RXT or 25,50? what's the best way.. I'm currently doing 75 (11 days),50 (11 days),,25 (6 days),

 

[kik0]

Paging Dr. D

5 days prior to cycle (supplement loading):
1000mg Milk Thistle
1200mg RYR
60mg CoQ10
3g Taurine

PCT supplement stack:
1000mg Milk Thistle
1200mg RYR
60mg CoQ10
1000mg Hawthorne
3g Taurine
325mg Saw Palmetto

NHA stack:
xfactor
fenotest
ax's PCT

other:
BCAA
ZMA (pre-Bed)
Vitamins


Wk1 SD 10mg + supp. stack
wk2 SD 20mg + supp. stack
wk3 SD 30mg + supp. stack

wk4 Nolva 40mg,3 fenugreek (600mgx3), + supp. stack
wk5 Nolva 40mg,4 fenugreek (600mgx4), + supp. stack
wk6 Nolva 20mg,5 fenugreek (600mgx5), + supp. stack + PCT 1caps, Xfactor ?dosage?, fenotest ?dosage?
wk7 Nolva 10mg,6 fenugreek (600mgx6), + supp. stack + PCT 2caps, Xfactor ?dosage?, fenotest ?dosage?
WK8 ------JUST NHA + SUPP. STACK----- supp. stack + PCT 3caps, xfactor ?dosage?, fenotest ?dosage?

Any suggestions/comments on this cycle?

Also does anyone know the proper dosages for the xfactor and fenotest for the weeks mentioned?

Thanks all for the great thread...I usually hang out at the BB.com and have been visiting AM for some time as well. I finally signed up the other day for the AM's board.

 

[BB12]

Re: Paging Dr. D

5 days prior to cycle (supplement loading):
1000mg Milk Thistle
1200mg RYR
60mg CoQ10
3g Taurine

PCT supplement stack:
1000mg Milk Thistle
1200mg RYR
60mg CoQ10
1000mg Hawthorne
3g Taurine
325mg Saw Palmetto

NHA stack:
xfactor
fenotest
ax's PCT

other:
BCAA
ZMA (pre-Bed)
Vitamins


Wk1 SD 10mg + supp. stack
wk2 SD 20mg + supp. stack
wk3 SD 30mg + supp. stack

wk4 Nolva 40mg,3 fenugreek (600mgx3), + supp. stack
wk5 Nolva 40mg,4 fenugreek (600mgx4), + supp. stack
wk6 Nolva 20mg,5 fenugreek (600mgx5), + supp. stack + PCT 1caps, Xfactor ?dosage?, fenotest ?dosage?
wk7 Nolva 10mg,6 fenugreek (600mgx6), + supp. stack + PCT 2caps, Xfactor ?dosage?, fenotest ?dosage?
WK8 ------JUST NHA + SUPP. STACK----- supp. stack + PCT 3caps, xfactor ?dosage?, fenotest ?dosage?

Any suggestions/comments on this cycle?

Also does anyone know the proper dosages for the xfactor and fenotest for the weeks mentioned?

Thanks all for the great thread...I usually hang out at the BB.com and have been visiting AM for some time as well. I finally signed up the other day for the AM's board.

I would had Celery seed from nutraplanet for your BP!

 

[BB12]

Re: Paging Dr. D

also, just buy Perfect Cycle by An Extreme.. has Milk This, NAC, and ALA.

 

[kik0]

Re: Paging Dr. D

also, just buy Perfect Cycle by An Extreme.. has Milk This, NAC, and ALA.

Is NAC and ALA something I can live without? Supps out the wazoo...with Celery Seed its over 10 supps total. I already did a cycle of SD without the Celery Seed, NAC, ALA but if you guys say its a must or VERY important then I will get some.

 

[BB12]

Re: Paging Dr. D

Is NAC and ALA something I can live without? Supps out the wazoo...with Celery Seed its over 10 supps total. I already did a cycle of SD without the Celery Seed, NAC, ALA but if you guys say its a must or VERY important then I will get some.

I'm the type to be better safe than sorry. Took me almost 8 months to buy SD. I love it.. only used 1/2 bottle and purchased another just to have it exp 2008. It up to you..

 

[solarize]

Not sure the extended version of tor acronym, but assuming a serm
Dont you think 50mg atd is high last week of cycle>

Yes. I would suggest a modified form of the original inverse protocol. Instead of 3 phases, just 2. Like this:

wk1: Tor 60-120mg/d, RXT 25mg
wk2: Tor 30-60mg/d, RXT 25mg
wk3: Tor 30mg/d, RXT 50mg
wk4: Tor 30mg/d, RXT 50mg

A less dramatic taper with a lower ending dose of RXT. You still get the benefits of increased LH output upfront, but don't risk the adverse libido effects at the end from 75mg of RXT. It should still be very effective. After the PCT, you could even trail off with 25-50mg of RXT indefinitely IMO.