Nabisco's Unnatural Transformation (PP/Epi/Form TD STACK)

[Nabisco]

I'm gonna try to tough out the whole ****s thing for a while. Since I just ordered from NP :rant: . But if my body can't handle it, then Gut Health it is. I'm going to try to eat a little less clean, just to try to pack on the pounds. Add in a lot more red meat, maybe some less than perfect carbs and increase my veggie intake, which is never where it should be. That, combined with less volume should do the trick I hope.

 

[thebigt]

I'm gonna try to tough out the whole ****s thing for a while. Since I just ordered from NP :rant: . But if my body can't handle it, then Gut Health it is. I'm going to try to eat a little less clean, just to try to pack on the pounds. Add in a lot more red meat, maybe some less than perfect carbs and increase my veggie intake, which is never where it should be. That, combined with less volume should do the trick I hope.

i am going to tell you the same thing i told celc. the form will keep you lean. if you have to add carbs to keep your cals up go for it.:squat:

 

[PumpingIron]

I have read up on the DC Training program and it seems reasonable. I've just never tried to develop a plan based off of it. If anyone would be willing to offer some help/advice on gearing a good DC program to gain some solid mass, Im all ears.:blink:

Beelzebub and Ubiquitous both have semi-DC logs going over in the training forum.

I'm about to start a true DC program next week...heres my plan:

2 On, 1 Off
2-4 warmup sets, 1 Working Set: Rest-Pause(3) to failure
Day 1a
Incline Smith Press
BB Military Press
CG Smith Bench Press
Cable Pulldowns
Deadlift to Shrug

Day 2a
Flat DB Press
Smith Military Press (Behind Head)
Dips
Wide Grip Pullups
T-Bar Rows

Day 3a
Decline Smith Press
DB Military Press
Skullcrushers
Rev. Grip Pulldowns
BB Rows

Day 1b
Preacher Curls
Reverse Preachers Curls
Leg Press Calves
Seated Leg Curls
Leg Press

Day 2b
BB Curls
Shrugs
Smith Standing Calf Raises
SLDL
Squat

Day 3b
Alt. DB Curls
BB Wrist Curls
Seated Calf Raises
Sumo Leg Press
Smith Machine Hack Squat

The only alterations I've made is that I really wanted some added direct trap work, so I added a shrug movement to deads on day 1a and replaced a wrist exercise with shrugs on day 2b.

 

[Nabisco]

I think my biggest issue is the rest-pause idea. From what I read you're just reracking the weight and just taking 12-15 deep breaths and then banging out the next couple, and then repeating again to get the (3) rest-pause sets in your 1 working set. Its definitely a different style of training that I'm interested in trying out. And I take it the idea is to go 100% intensity on your one working set on each of the exercises during your workout, right? So for each exercise, you're getting 2-4 warmup sets, then your one working set thats a (3) rest-pause set. You don't see a problem with a 2 on, 1off, 2on, 2 off rotation?

 

[Nabisco]

I'm in the process of putting together a DC-style training regiment. Here are my few main problems.

1) Only calf workout I can get at the gym is standing machine calf raises. The seated calf machine is a broken piece of sh1t from 1920. Any suggestions?

2) My broke ass gym doesn't have a leg press. I've never been in a gym that doesn't have a leg press until this one, but there it is. Takes a lot of strong leg movements out of the picture.

So I need to find some extra calf exercises and some extra leg exercises past the squats, sldls, leg ext, leg curls that I already do.

 

[prld2gr8ns]

Barbell calf raises, dumbell calf raises, incline dumbell calf raises(good stretch... just balance yourself on the end of a platform of some sort, go all the way down past parallel and back to the top at full flex and hold for 3secs or so). Vary the foot stance to isolate certain parts of the calf, i.e toes pointed in for outer, toes pointed out for inner.

Try some step ups, dumbell lunges, and 1 legged squats and leg extensions for some variety.

 

[PumpingIron]

You're gym doesn't have a smith machine?

 

[DefTek]

Metroba I see PI beat me to the punch - a google search will also pull up several more DC articles -- specifically the folks over at IntenseMuscle.com have a DOGG POUND spot on their forum that stays pretty active - good reading.

Nabisco if you are feeling you need more leg work (no leg press machine) then try a pre-exhaustion 10-15min plyo routine - nothing too taxing but just enough to get the burn going. Everytime I have done this before I do squats my legs feel like they are gonna explode.

Plyometrics (jump training) is def an ass kicker !!!!! Again anything to shock the system to get it going is a good thing.

Keep the log rolling :thumbsup:

 

[DefTek]

PI I forgot to ask -- your W/O goes 1a-1b-off and so on? I really like this routine and think I will use it for my last 6-7weeks I have on the EVO stack - changed just a few things to fit the equipment I have available but other than that it looks to be a fresh change.

All :box: PumpingIron heh



Now back to our regularly scheduled log...

 

[metroba]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PumpingIron again.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Deftek again.

 

[PumpingIron]

PI I forgot to ask -- your W/O goes 1a-1b-off and so on?

1a, 1b, off, 2a, 2b, off, 3a, 3b, off, repeat.

 

[metroba]

1a, 1b, off, 2a, 2b, off, 3a, 3b, off, repeat.

How many weeks at a time are you doing this?

 

[PumpingIron]

How many weeks at a time are you doing this?

Atleast 6 months. One of the cool concepts in DC training is that once you reach a plateau for a certain exercise you are supposed to swap it out for another targeting the same muscle group and so on...so potential for growth and strength will always be there.

Now, I'm not trying to be an expert here, I'm pretty just parrotting a lot Dante's posts and articles.

 

[metroba]

Atleast 6 months. One of the cool concepts in DC training is that once you reach a plateau for a certain exercise you are supposed to swap it out for another targeting the same muscle group and so on...so potential for growth and strength will always be there.

Now, I'm not trying to be an expert here, I'm pretty just parrotting a lot Dante's posts and articles.

thanks. Im going to look more into this. Im very intersted.

 

[PumpingIron]

look into beelzebub's version too...good stuff.


...sorry Nabisco, for the hijack.

 

[Nabisco]

Not a problem guys, any discussion is welcome. I'm very interested in DC style training myself, so you guys have all been a big help.

And PumpingIron, my gym has one smith machine (bb on a track, right?). Just no ordinary leg press machines.

I've got a little story to share real quick. The gym I belong to in really a "Welness Center", i.e. an old person's gym run by the hospital. I signed up there because the Gold's here closed (and stole $200 worth of my membership money the pricks!), because I wanted to be able to focus without a bunch of huge loud hardcore juicers yelling during each of their sets. So I'm one of the larger guys at my gym (sad as Im not even 190), but there is this one guy and his "crew" that I run into every now and then if I hit the gym earlier than normal. He's late 30's, but he's probably 230ish and c0ck diesel. So are most of his buddies, I'd say they're all 200+. Well they were doing chest and so was I. They were using the 90lb DBs for incline press, and I asked them when they were going to be done with them so I could use them. And the dude just looks me up and down like he didn't believe me, and told me a few sets. I said cool, no big deal I'll just get in another light set for warmup until you're done. Now mind you they are doing like 2 inch reps because they're all doing weight that they can't handle for a full range of motion. So this c0ck diesel mother ****er gets smart with me and says "Well if you can get 90s why dont you just man up and use the 95s". So of course, the beast within roars to life, I looked up at him and said sure. Picked up the 95s, walked over to the bench sat down, laid down and pounded out 6 unassisted with a full range of motion, I mean DBs down to touching my chest rull squeeze. Then dropped the weights and sat back up. He just sat there with his mouth open wondering how the hell some scrawny white kid could hit that weight. I've always wanted to shut up those cocky punks, but I've never been strong enough. Well thank you Phera.

By the way, that c0ck diesel mother ****er I was telling you about in that story. Is the personal trainer at my gym. Yet he isn't telling his boys to use good form? I wouldn't want to use him as my trainer.

 

[PumpingIron]

most trainers are douchebags...one at my gym trains this cute girl and made her run so long on a treadmill after shed been complaining for a long time, that she ended up with 3 stress fractures..

as far as the smith machine goes, hack squats are cool, and for calves, get a box and do some good calf raises with different foot positioning.

also...you can do db or bb lunges

 

[nycste]

most trainers are douchebags...one at my gym trains this cute girl and made her run so long on a treadmill after shed been complaining for a long time, that she ended up with 3 stress fractures..

as far as the smith machine goes, hack squats are cool, and for calves, get a box and do some good calf raises with different foot positioning.

also...you can do db or bb lunges

wow lets beat him up and steal the girl heck she cant run away from us haha

 

[PumpingIron]

wow lets beat him up and steal the girl heck she cant run away from us haha

She's a nice girl, her bf is actually a nat. bber.

Thats not to say I wouldn't "beat that punani up" as piston pump would put it...but probably only if she intiated it.

 

[Nabisco]

Day 16​

Skipped out on my workout today. Will hit shoulders/arms tomorrow. I loaded up calorie-wise today. I'm working out a 4 day/week DC style regiment to start next week, once Im completely on the Epistane based off of PumpingIron's setup. I'm just going to keep pounding the calories...and I've made the decision to steer away from the completely clean calories and just make sure I hit 4000/day. Now don't get me wrong...Im not eating trash food, Im just not limiting myself to chicken, turkey, and fish anymore. Im adding some leaner ground beef, a lot more peanut butter, and such. I want the size and weight that come with being on cycle.

Overall, feeling good and solid so far moving into my third week of cycle. Strength gains have been pretty outstanding even though not up to what I was hoping for. Libido is still all there, as I will prove to a lucky lady that Im taking out later this week. Mood is ALL over the place...one minute Im pissed the next minute Im happy, although things have been all over the place in the past couple of weeks in my life too. I'll keep an eye on it.

Other than that, joints are healing up nicely with the Incarnate, although I'm nearly out. Once that runs out I'll sub in USPs Super Cissus Rx.

The Poseidon has really kept me good an hydrated as well as really kept my skin VERY clear and VERY hydrated. My skin never dries out under the Form TD due to the Poseidon, and I find that I don't need to apply moisturizer as much as I used to because I do tend to get dry skin showering twice a day. :thumbsup:

So far so good. I'll keep you guys updated and appreciate all the help so far.

 

[Nabisco]

Day 17​

Dosed 30mg PP, 10mg Epi, 80mg Form TD today. Strength is still there, finishing out this week on my current plan, switching to DC style next week. I'll post the new workout plan next week.

Workout​

Rotator Cuff Exercise to warm up. Stayed light on shoulders to test out how the joint was feeling.

Seated Smith Machine Military Press
65x10, 85x10, 105x10

Lat Raises
30x12, 35x8, 40x8

BB Curls
95x10, 95x8, 105x6

Seated DB Curls
30x15, 35x10, 40x7

Skull Crushers (stayed light due to elbow tendons feeling a little tight)
65x15, 65x12, 65x10

One arm cable pushdowns
60x12, 65x10, 70x8

Leg Raises
15, 15, 12

Workout went well, felt strong the entire time. Endurance is sticking with me.

Mood: Normal
Energy: Fine even though I didnt get a ton of sleep
Endurance: Great, all through workouts
Libido: Still going strong
Strength: Solid
Joints: Getting a little dry, but will up fish oil and add super cissus when order gets here
Weight: 185.5 :smite:

Alright, so far no sides during this cycle. However, eating nearly 4000 calories a day and I have gained maybe 2.5lbs in 2.5 weeks. :wtf: Explain that **** to me. I'm also a little grouchy because Nutra took 4 days to process my order...highly unusual, one of the products I ordered must have been out or something. Go figure. My strength is sky rocketing but my weight is stationary and Im not leaning out I can tell you that. So help me figure out whats going on here.

 

[PumpingIron]

The grouchiness is a sign of things to come my friend.

I saw my best gains in week 3 and 4 of PP, so be patient and keep those cals high.

 

[metroba]

What do you mean by lat raises?

 

[PumpingIron]

lateral raises, most likely.

 

[metroba]

lateral raises, most likely.

haha. man i feel stupid.

 

[Nabisco]

We all have those once in a while metroba :thumbsup:

I really think I was hardcore overtraining. I was researching symptoms and such, and although I was never sore, due to being on PP, I had finally started to lose my appetite, I was getting short tempered, and losing my drive. I think by taking today off, getting a good solid leg workout in tomorrow, then starting back up Monday with a DC style workout I'll get back on track. Im sad that my PP will be gone by sunday, but Im pretty stoked to be completely on Epistane for another couple of weeks.

 

[metroba]

We all have those once in a while metroba :thumbsup:

I really think I was hardcore overtraining. I was researching symptoms and such, and although I was never sore, due to being on PP, I had finally started to lose my appetite, I was getting short tempered, and losing my drive. I think by taking today off, getting a good solid leg workout in tomorrow, then starting back up Monday with a DC style workout I'll get back on track. Im sad that my PP will be gone by sunday, but Im pretty stoked to be completely on Epistane for another couple of weeks.

good plan.

 

[acshadow]

do you need the Form on PP or is there another reason you are using it?

 

[prld2gr8ns]

It's not detrimental but helps control estrogen levels fairly well with the PP.

 

[Nabisco]

I was using the Form TD for a couple reasons.

1) Like prld2gr8ns said, I wanted to try to lean out the gains from PP and

2) Because i thought that my "chest fat" may have been gyno, and Form TD has been known to significantly reduce gyno (or so some of the members here have experienced)

Sadly it wasn't gyno, my body just deposits fat on my chest at around 12-13% bf. This is to genetics :FUfinger:

 

[prld2gr8ns]

In that case when you go on a cut those will go bye, bye. A much better situation really.

 

[PumpingIron]

Dont sweat it...I'm probably around 9% and I still hold water under my nipples...it's just genetics. I honestly think it would take a sub 7% body fat to lose it.

 

[Nabisco]

Genetics can be depressing sometimes can't they?

:nutkick:

 

[PumpingIron]

Genetics can be depressing sometimes can't they?

:nutkick:

You know it.

"Genetics, that's why God made Steroids"

 

[Nabisco]

Day 21​

Quick update. Last few days have been tough, keep getting called in to work. Haven't hit the gym since wednesday, and lethargy has kicked my ass lately. Worst part of it all is that I had to lower protein down below 250g/day and make an emergency order to NP for some Gut Health. My inside were torn up, not in a good way...in a painful to sh1t way. Since I dropped protein down my bowels have started to return to normal. I'll ramp back up once I get some Gut Health.

Hopefully **** will be back to normal this week and I'll get a chance to hit the gym mon, tues, thurs, friday.

Will give more info tomorrow, as Im on the run again today. Got called in to work again...so much for having a weekend.

 

[Link24]

Hey Nabisco, I have the same chest fat problem as you and i found that once i limited dairy to my diet it seemed to reduce it. So maybe you should try cutting the cottage cheese and milk adding some casein. Its just my opinion though

 

[prld2gr8ns]

Day 21​

Quick update. Last few days have been tough, keep getting called in to work. Haven't hit the gym since wednesday, and lethargy has kicked my ass lately. Worst part of it all is that I had to lower protein down below 250g/day and make an emergency order to NP for some Gut Health. My inside were torn up, not in a good way...in a painful to sh1t way. Since I dropped protein down my bowels have started to return to normal. I'll ramp back up once I get some Gut Health.

Hopefully **** will be back to normal this week and I'll get a chance to hit the gym mon, tues, thurs, friday.

Will give more info tomorrow, as Im on the run again today. Got called in to work again...so much for having a weekend.

Dam sorry to hear about all that man... hope things start picking back up for the better this week.

 

[metroba]

Were all rootn for ya Nabisco.:thumbsup:

 

[Nabisco]

Day 22​

Thanks for the support gents. Body is back to normal today, I'm going to slowly up calories again until Gut Health arrives later this week. I am now currently running 10mg PP (just getting rid of those extra couple of pills) and 30mg Epi. I think I'll continue to run 30mg Epi until in runs out so about 4 weeks. My Incarnate has also ran out, and will be substituted with USPs Super Cissus Rx to continue with joint support. Most important thing is Im back on track, and fired up to get some kick ass results in the month of cycle I have left.

Here is the new DC style program that I've put together, and by "I've put together" I mean stolen blatently from PumpingIron (Thanks PI). I've changed a few of the exercises to suit myself and my gym's limitations.

I'll update tonight with a weigh-in and my workout.

2 On, 1 Off, 2 On, 2 Off
2-4 warmup sets, 1 Working Set: Rest-Pause(3) to failure
Day 1a
Incline Smith Press
BB Military Press
CG Smith Bench Press
Cable Pulldowns
Deadlifts

Day 2a
Flat DB Press
Smith Military Press (Behind Head)
Cable Pushdowns
Wide Grip Pullups
T-Bar Rows

Day 3a
Decline Smith Press
DB Military Press
Skullcrushers
Rev. Grip Pulldowns
BB Rows

Day 1b
Concentration Curls
Reverse Preachers Curls
Machine Standing Calf Raises
Lying Leg Curls
Squats

Day 2b
BB Curls
Shrugs
Smith Machine Calf Raises (toes out)
SLDL
Leg Extensions

Day 3b
Alt. DB Curls
BB Wrist Curls
Smith machine Calf Raises (toes in)
Good Mornings
Smith Machine Hack Squat

 

[PumpingIron]

I'm gettin started with this today too...best of luck.

Everythin I know about DC is from Ubi, Beelze and Dante's writings.

 

[nycste]

Day 22​

Thanks for the support gents. Body is back to normal today, I'm going to slowly up calories again until Gut Health arrives later this week. I am now currently running 10mg PP (just getting rid of those extra couple of pills) and 30mg Epi. I think I'll continue to run 30mg Epi until in runs out so about 4 weeks. My Incarnate has also ran out, and will be substituted with USPs Super Cissus Rx to continue with joint support. Most important thing is Im back on track, and fired up to get some kick ass results in the month of cycle I have left.

Here is the new DC style program that I've put together, and by "I've put together" I mean stolen blatently from PumpingIron (Thanks PI). I've changed a few of the exercises to suit myself and my gym's limitations.

I'll update tonight with a weigh-in and my workout.

2 On, 1 Off, 2 On, 2 Off
2-4 warmup sets, 1 Working Set: Rest-Pause(3) to failure
Day 1a
Incline Smith Press
BB Military Press
CG Smith Bench Press
Cable Pulldowns
Deadlifts

Day 2a
Flat DB Press
Smith Military Press (Behind Head)
Cable Pushdowns
Wide Grip Pullups
T-Bar Rows

Day 3a
Decline Smith Press
DB Military Press
Skullcrushers
Rev. Grip Pulldowns
BB Rows

Day 1b
Concentration Curls
Reverse Preachers Curls
Machine Standing Calf Raises
Lying Leg Curls
Squats

Day 2b
BB Curls
Shrugs
Smith Machine Calf Raises (toes out)
SLDL
Leg Extensions

Day 3b
Alt. DB Curls
BB Wrist Curls
Smith machine Calf Raises (toes in)
Good Mornings
Smith Machine Hack Squat

sounds good might be going this route soon too

 

[thebigt]

sounds good might be going this route soon too

thanks for the libido check, that avatar is killer.:food:

 

[thebigt]

nabisco, im curious are you still doing the formestane? if you are have you noticed anything yet?btw glad your back on track.:thumbsup:

 

[prld2gr8ns]

I think your going to like the tut style nabisco. Good to see you getting back on track.

 

[JZ7757]

Be patient man, weeks 3-4 are the best as long as you have your cals up, particularly carbs. Dont let the lathargy get to you and stop you from attaining your goals. Every cycle has its ups and downs, sometimes they are a little bigger than most.

PP def shouldnt be shutting down your appetite, it sounds like what i recently went through with just too much food, too fast that the body jsut starts to reject it.

Instead of waiting for Gut health, go pick up some acidiphilous (should be available locally at a vitimin store). 40-50 mgs a day was a BIG help and i noticed the appetite rebound right away. Also try eating smaller meals.

 

[Nabisco]

I appreciate all the advice guys. I had my first DC style workout last night and I really liked it. I mean I LOVED it. I could really focus my intensity into that one working set. I wasn't spending 1.5 hours in the gym loading weight on and off the racks. I weighed in again yesterday 185lbs and not moving. I'm hoping that this new style of training is really going to help me explode past the 190 mark in the next four weeks.

I've been talking to one of the AX reps from their forum and I might have a little something extra to add to my cycle here soon. A little surprise for your gents if it comes through. :thumbsup:

Here was the workout yesterday...

Smith Machine Incline Press
4 warmup sets
Working Set: 145x12x10x8 (way too light...I hadn't realized how much stronger I've gotten)

Seated Military Press
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 105x8x5x3 (Not bad since my shoulder has just gotten to healing up...will increase weight next time)

Smith Machine CG Bench
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 135x8x5x3 (light again, but was really trying to focus on controlled reps...will def increase next time)

Pulldowns
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 160x8x5x3 (Had to go fairly light here, felt like I slightly tweaked my lower trap on one of the warmup sets. The belt slid over and caught up, so when I powered the bar down it caught and nearly yanked me out of my seat. ****ty piece of equipment)

Deadlifts
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 275x8x5x3 :head: (Never done that many reps before with this weight so I was pumped)

I finished up by crushing some abdominals and using DC's technique to help shoulder's repair (hold a broomstick in front of you and come up over your head and as far back as possible for 50 reps. Only got 25, but its a start)

I also tried the extreme stretching for my chest with 80lb dbs after the chest portion of my workout and WOW. I couldn't hold them longer than 20 seconds before the burn beat me and I dropped them. I'm going to work up to the whole hold for 60 sec deal. Also did the extreme stretching for shoulders, slowly will work the rest into the regiment.

By the way gents, good news. 300 comes out on DVD today and I'm picking it up after work. If that movie isn't motivation, nothing is.:duel:

 

[Nabisco]

thebigt: I went back last week when I was feeling like absolute trash and tried to find which supplement I thought was causing the worst sides. And although I hadn't really reported it here in my log I had felt the loss of appetite, crazy a$$ bowel movements (no pun intended), building as the first few weeks of the cycle got underway. Only two things were being ramped up, the Pheraplex and the Form TD. I've used the PP before and not had these sides, so I pointed the finger at the Form TD. So I stopped the form td and the sides have subsided, but I also dropped my protein intake.

So here is the deal, I'm not pointing the finger at the Form TD because I can't say one way or the other whether it was the cause or not. Perhaps I just reacted to the PP differently this time since it was higher dosages. But I wasn't seeing any results from the Form TD, no leaning out, no loss of fat, nothing that I could visibly see or measure in the three weeks I used it. So for me perhaps Im a non-responder or perhaps I just didn't go high enough on the dosages. Perhaps I'll work it back in towards the end of cycle and see what happens.

 

[thebigt]

thanks for the honest report. it was only a matter of time i guess until someone didnt respond to formestane. sorry about your luck, formestane has been good to me.:thumbsup:

 

[Nabisco]

Day 23​

Quick update

Workout​

Concentration Curls
3 warmup sets
Working Set: 35x8x5x3 (too light...needs to go up)

Reverse Preacher Curls
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 65x8x5x3 (definitely heavy enough)

Machine Calf Raises
3 warmup sets
Working Set: 400x8x5x3 (PR for me, also maxed out the machine)

Lying Leg Curls
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 125x8x5x3 (this is a weak point for me)

Squats
2 warmup sets
Working Set: 225x8x5x3 (felt like I sprinted a mile after this set)

Did some oblique work and more of DC's high rep shoulder stretches. Overall good workout...I've really got to focus on getting balls to the wall intense. Loving the DC style of lifting so far. We'll see what the results say in a few weeks.

SHUT UP AND :squat: !

 

[PumpingIron]

Nabisco, whats your rep scheme like? 2/3?