IBE is in TROUBLE!!!!!!!

[whitedevil74]

the problem is that neither of these companies manufacture this product in house, both IBE and RPN are sourcing this compound from a supplier in China and then putting there own label on it. It is like they are ordering protein from TrueProtein and then labeling it themselves. I do not know if they are getting it from the same source or not, but if they are, that bodes ill for both companies. Additionally this will never see a courtroom as it would only draw too much unwanted attention on both of these companies that are operating in a very gray area of the law. Juries are not well disposed to people who violate federal drug loopholes.

 

[bioman]

Whatever the case may be, I REALLY want to know what is in Havoc if it's not pure.

Y'all can fight back and forth about who came out with the compound for EPI/HAVOC all you want but in the end, it's a stupid argument.

The compound was out there and in use in Japan for many years. Bringing it to the US market is no major innovation..just clever marketing and paying attention to what works and what doesn't. So pledge your loyalties to your favorite company and make up a bunch of BS about the ones you don't...it doesn't f'in matter. What SHOULD matter is that the products are what they say they are.

I personally like IBE and I also like RPN just fine. If they want to go at it with each other, that's their business but what I find sadly amusing is that so many people are willing to take sides based on what they read on the internet. Do you all need to feel like you're a part of something sooooo bad that you'll make this fight your fight? Even though you really have no idea what's really going on behind the scenes?




That's actually pretty pathetic. Go out and lift some weights.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Right on Bioman.

 

[whitedevil74]

Whatever the case may be, I REALLY want to know what is in Havoc if it's not pure.

Y'all can fight back and forth about who came out with the compound for EPI/HAVOC all you want but in the end, it's a stupid argument.

The compound was out there and in use in Japan for many years. Bringing it to the US market is no major innovation..just clever marketing and paying attention to what works and what doesn't. So pledge your loyalties to your favorite company and make up a bunch of BS about the ones you don't...it doesn't f'in matter. What SHOULD matter is that the products are what they say they are.

I personally like IBE and I also like RPN just fine. If they want to go at it with each other, that's their business but what I find sadly amusing is that so many people are willing to take sides based on what they read on the internet. Do you all need to feel like you're a part of something sooooo bad that you'll make this fight your fight? Even though you really have no idea what's really going on behind the scenes?




That's actually pretty pathetic. Go out and lift some weights.

Excellent post, I am wondering if I should ask for a refund on the bottle of Havoc I just ordered and hold off my cycle until these questions are satisfactorily resolved.

 

[supersoldier]

I agree with Bioman completely. I don't know if you were talking to me at all, but it bothers me that people repeatedly spit out that Epi is a Havoc ripoff/clone as pure fact. Dr.D sent me a sample almost two years ago to alpha test, w/ bloodwork.

 

[supersoldier]

It's also interesting that two weeks ago, everyone had doubts about epi and blind faith in Havoc. Now the tables have turned...

I don't think anybody should be asking for refunds or having too much doubts about either product, as all there is right now is pure speculation. There are numerous logs that clearly prove that they both work (for our purposes).

 

[bioman]

I wasn't ranting at any one person in particular, SS.

And I agree, both products are proving themselves just fine. IF there are purity issues, let's wait and see what they are before speculating up some more cyber gossip.

 

[bkprice]

The main reason this has not died yet is RPN is not made any attempt to explain or even defend its product. It really is puzzles me because when others attack Epi, IBE brought out the big guns and did everything they could to defend there product. I would have thought that RPN would have been all over this, yet they seem to have went underground.

 

[agpetz]

Although I don't agree with the way IBE went about this, the consumer should know if Havoc is not what it is supposed to be. The funny thing is, MM (1fast400) posting the e-mail on bb.com caused more of a fuss than the actual e-mail going out. Is there anyway to get any kind of assurance we are getting what we pay for?

 

[supersoldier]

The main reason this has not died yet is RPN is not made any attempt to explain or even defend its product.

That's part of it. IMO a bigger part of it is that Mike is a huge douche. The part about Lake/IBE sending out the email didn't really help much either. <----I still love you guys though...

 

[Beebs]

This is the **** that keeps me away from these designers. Half the time you don't even know what you're putting into your body, but the foolish thing is that everyone always wants to try the new, hot PH. Screw it all, I'd rather take something that has 50+ years of research behind it.

 

[size]

Whatever the case may be, I REALLY want to know what is in Havoc if it's not pure...both products are proving themselves just fine.

Knowing the content is important. For an individual that may be tested, the effectiveness of the product may not be as important as the "legality" of it.

 

[grantr]

whats important is that the consumer knows what they are taking and that the trust between consumer and company is not broken by false claims..this is why its hard to believe a company would make something that is not what they say it is because if that got out to the public, they basically dug themselves a hole.

 

[CHAPS]

Maybe i'm talkin out of my ass here but i've heard nothing but positive reviews about Havoc and IBE's Epistane, why the hell should i care if it's 2 compounds instead of one if i'm getting awesome results without sides?

Yes it would be just HORRIBLE if they slipped me some var, lol

 

[yeahright]

whats important is that the consumer knows what they are taking and that the trust between consumer and company is not broken by false claims..this is why its hard to believe a company would make something that is not what they say it is because if that got out to the public, they basically dug themselves a hole.

Most companies won't deliberately do this. There are some fly-by-night outfits that don't care but IBE is solid and RPN (though new) seems solid.

There is a long supply chain from China to the USA. Lots of things can go wrong (machine jams, middleman decides to skim some off and replaces a product with filler, something doesn't quite work right in a fermentation tank so the yield is lower than expected, blah blah blah). Things can go wrong through no deliberate decision of anyone.

What matters is how companies respond when problems are identified. Some companies step right up, offer refunds or exchange products. Other companies obfuscate, delay or close up shop.

In this case, there is NO EVIDENCE that we've seen that there is any problem with either Epistane or Havoc. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.......but this series of events is unfortunate for everyone. No good can come from it.

 

[jomi822]

what i would really like to see is a test of both Havoc and Epistane conducted by both companies respectively.

In other words, have both companies test both products and throw up the numbers (testing of same batch of both products of course).

If the numbers simply dont line up, then we know someone is lying.

 

[Sonicology]

The main reason this has not died yet is RPN is not made any attempt to explain or even defend its product. It really is puzzles me because when others attack Epi, IBE brought out the big guns and did everything they could to defend there product. I would have thought that RPN would have been all over this, yet they seem to have went underground.

Dsades only word on this has been to say that he will let his attorney handle the case, which in my opinion is the correct way to act. If he were to get in a mud-slinging contest with IBE it would only further hurt the reputations of both parties, which we have had more than enough of in recent weeks.

 

[Beau]

So, to summarize - no one has any opinions on this, right?

:fool2:

 

[grantr]

Do you really think IBE is that stupid? No laws have been broken....there is truth behind the email verified by a 3rd party lab. Test results will be posted tonight and chain of custody will be following a few days after that. This was supposed to be handled in private, but MM somehow got ahold of this email and put it out in open forum. What about the tests on Epi? Everyone was able to say that there was something wrong with Epi without showing one result. We set out to prove otherwise and found out much more than we were expecting.
I must say in all board history, this has to be the biggest conflict amongst companies seen. I think at the end of the day all 3 products will be damaged and you can all thank BK and MM for that one.

so to summarize this, if someone was taking any of the three products, they should discontinue?

 

[99sscamaroma]

so to summarize this, if someone was taking any of the three products, they should discontinue?

Imw ith you, thats what Im most concerned about right now. If either product isnt a strong as originally demmed then im ok with that as long as it still produces some good results. But if it is something toxic/dangerous to the body then thats a whole different issue. I have a bottle of havoc waiting for me but id like to see someone clarify what the issue is...

 

[T-Bone]

This should have been kept a private matter for the two opposing companies to work out at their own discretion.

 

[ShapeUP]

I say you just rename it havistandionozololvar.

J/k, I'm :fool2:

 

[hill5673]

Yes, this was supposed to be held in a private manner and was not broadcasted as has been inferred by MM. 5 individuals were emailed by a rep, period. MM is the one actually responsible for broadcasting etc....and he has openly admitted having a vendetta for dsade.
There is nothing toxic/harmful to worry about, it is a matter of figuring out what else is in the compound. The statement of damage to all 3 products is that with all this open drama and antics occurring between the affiliated companies is going to cause the consumers to lose faith in the compound. All IBE is trying to do now is a matter of due deligence in 3rd party testing our product after what was found with the Havoc testing. There is no slander or false statements and was not malicious intent to those parties that were emailed. If we were given respect in privacy for the PA testing of both compounds and if individuals such as BK with vested interest would not have pushed the issue, we never would have followed through with 3rd party testing Havoc.

How can you say "There is nothing toxic/harmful to worry about"
when you have to "figure out" what else is in the compound. If you don't know what it is how do you know it's not toxic?

I am especially concearned because I have been taking havoc for 3 weeks and NOW nobody knows what's in it...

 

[jomi822]

Well, I can only speak for Epi for sure in this case, but we did beta testing beginning months prior to release with multiple testers with bloodwork analysis as well as in-house testing.

but that was a different batch...correct?

 

[1Fast400]

There is no slander or false statements and was not malicious intent to those parties that were emailed.

Did you read the email you sent? Seriously?

What nobody seems to understand is that there is no possible way for you to say that you know for 100% what the compound is. That goes for any of the tests. It can only be a guess. I would love to know how you got two different results when two different companies used the same supplier for the material. Release those test results, watch them get tore apart.

Sadly, I can't continue this fight next week. I'll be taking a new ownership role in a company.

 

[grantr]

IBE said he was going to release the test results tonight, so we'll all have to wait and see

 

[ShapeUP]

Did you read the email you sent? Seriously?

What nobody seems to understand is that there is no possible way for you to say that you know for 100% what the compound is. That goes for any of the tests. It can only be a guess. I would love to know how you got two different results when two different companies used the same supplier for the material. Release those test results, watch them get tore apart.

Sadly, I can't continue this fight next week. I'll be taking a new ownership role in a company.

Right...convenience in all it's glory. :yawn:

 

[1Fast400]

Your avatar makes me laugh

 

[1Fast400]

You assume I meant Epistane as the other product. You sent your results out to everyone. I had 3 copies of it within 24 hours. The other two products you tested outside of yours share the same material supplier. So I would like to know how you came up with different tests?

Yes, I read PA's post, obviously you didn't. AM's board doesn't want to be trashed up with this stuff. If you want to discuss it, we'll go to bb.com, unless the mods say it's ok to do it here. I'd love to go down a list of questions for you and answer them one by one without you skipping them. You always seem to avoid certain things I point out.

 

[Jayhawkk]

MM,I thought you couldn't have any business ties due to your contract within this industry? Now you have to pull yourself out of this because of a newfound business which I would have to assume would be in the same line of ibe, rpn etc?

 

[1Fast400]

I am in the process of buying a company. It's to good of an offer. I've made it where it's non compete compliant with my buyout. With that I will be coming back to the industry. I can assure you, that on no level, is RPN/IBE in the same market place as this company.

 

[friction515]

Havoc came back with information showing it to be the product claimed on the side of the bottle.

Who posted this? Was it 1fast?

What nobody seems to understand is that there is no possible way for you to say that you know for 100% what the compound is. That goes for any of the tests. It can only be a guess.

Hmmm, thats odd. I think this might also be a quote from one fast? How weird?

 

[1Fast400]

Havoc came back with the correct MW of what the compound is, per PA's test. Epistane didn't. That is what started all this.

 

[friction515]

Well that is what a mass spec will state. Also with the GC/MS there would be no guess as to wether there was more than one chemical in the bottle. That is a fact There can only be a guess as to what exactly that chemical is. However if they had this tested by a reputable lab I'm sure there were other tests done as to identify said mystery 40% substance. With those tests there would be alot of searching that would be done to compare it to other known compounds in which case a chemist would be able to make an educated guess and say, the sompound seems as though it may be steroidal.

As stated many times though just because a compound has the correct molecular weight doesnt make it that compound.

 

[max silver]

Havoc came back with the correct MW of what the compound is, per PA's test. Epistane didn't. That is what started all this.

The way you flaunted PA's test results all over various message boards is what started this whole mess. I assume you derive great pleasure out of this kind of drama.

 

[1Fast400]

There is no doubt both products are steroidal. I've never said they don't work. I've just said that they weren't what was claimed on the bottle. IBE has admitted they've never done third party testing till now. Which means I have had a positive effect.

IBE was actually doing well until they started emailing everyone

 

[1Fast400]

Actually Max, this deal got started WAY before I got involved. Maybe you don't care what is in what you take. If that is the case, I think you're in the minority

 

[friction515]

"There is no doubt both products are steroidal. I've never said they don't work. I've just said that they weren't what was claimed on the bottle. IBE has admitted they've never done third party testing till now. Which means I have had a positive effect.

IBE was actually doing well until they started emailing everyone" 1fast


No I mean both products that are supposedly in the havoc as stated in the email. The ones in the 60/40 ratio where 60% is said to be the right chemical and 40% is mystery as of now.

 

[Travis]

At this point Im thinking I will not buy either product....unfortunate.

An issue like this shouldnt be worked out in a public forum such as this board.

 

[1Fast400]

I hate to say it travis, but if it wasn't put in public (with the fear of negative press), nothing would ever happen.

 

[Bionic]

Nevermind.

 

[moklepaul]

IBE probably should have contacted RPN in private to try to deal with this. Ah well, far too late for that, it's at least good to know we're being kept in the loop now. I hope both products come back as being safe though...

 

[darius]

Looks like I will be switching to Hemaguno for the remainder of this cycle.

There product may cost $50, but you get an extra 2.5mg per tablet (oh yeah, tablets are nifty). Not to mention the package design looks pretty sweet. Oh yeah, and it's also in stock everywhere.

 

[poopypants]

Ok, so you posted this so you would get raped? I bet your mom wishes she made it to the clinic before it closed now. Dont worry though, with your IQ it wont be long before you blow dry your hair in the shower.

:toofunny: LOL reps on that!!!!!!!:toofunny:

edit: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bkprice again.

 

[poopypants]

Do you really think IBE is that stupid? No laws have been broken....there is truth behind the email verified by a 3rd party lab. Test results will be posted tonight and chain of custody will be following a few days after that. This was supposed to be handled in private, but MM somehow got ahold of this email and put it out in open forum. What about the tests on Epi? Everyone was able to say that there was something wrong with Epi without showing one result. We set out to prove otherwise and found out much more than we were expecting.
I must say in all board history, this has to be the biggest conflict amongst companies seen. I think at the end of the day all 3 products will be damaged and you can all thank BK and MM for that one.

:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: how ironic.....

 

[poopypants]

Well havoc came out first,so is it correct that they brought the product to the industry.Now ibe copied havoc,and tried to cash in on their market.They did this and are now trying to get rpn taken off the market.If ibe copied the exact same formula then nobody comes out on top..If ibe did copy the formula Why the F*ck would they send a message like that??? Maybe epistane is legit..and they do infact have a different compound...If so many people are reporting good results with the products then something really isn't making sence here...:think:

have you been around ???? havoc may have been released first but epi has been in the works for much longer.... and was being aplha tested... did havoc do so????

 

[darius]

I can almost bet you hemaguno will test out bad as well because there oxy did. all the same guy's are behind this company. they attacted us first but now we are gonna finish it.

I never said that I didn't like the product and you never accused me of that. My main problem is that Epistane/Havoc seems to be out of stock everywhere and while I'm popping 4 of these capsules a day, I'm gonna run out soon. I just want to prolong my cycle, thats all.

I could honestly care less whats in it despite that being the reason everyone else is wetting their pants. All I know is that my gyno is going away and I have put things into my body that were probably 500X worse than whatever Epi is. While it is still a concern of course, it is not my primary concern.

What do you mean when you say "we are gonna finish it"? Does that mean that you guys are going to come out with some more Epi soon with higher purity??

 

[Dwight Schrute]

AM's board doesn't want to be trashed up with this stuff. If you want to discuss it, we'll go to bb.com, unless the mods say it's ok to do it here.

As long as it doesn't get too nuts, I don't care.

I would suggest some people refrain from generalizing boards though. A select few don't represent the whole.

Back to the Soprano's for me.....

 

[jomi822]

the clown has spoken

IBE, will the results be posted in this thread or are posting it another.

And has RPN made any kind of response yet?

 

[bkprice]

They are still doing well, most, if not all the complainers never bought from them. Its sad that people are more concern more about business ethics then they are about truth in labeling. Its weird because some of your buddies posted stuff in a public chat room about what they said they found in Epi but when IBE sends a private email about what they found you cry foul. In my view telling thousand of customers that Epi is not legit, is unethical.