Anyone ever suffered serious liver damage?

[kBrown]

I just got my blood results back from a month ago. Ast - 46 (1-35) and alt - 72 (30-65) is this something to worry about?

That isn't too bad. Do yourself a favor...
Lay off the harsh supps. Don't touch alcohol and get some liver support

Your values aren't so high I would freak out... But they are obv higher than they should be.

 

[kBrown]

Been off for 48 hours now and running TUDCA at 750mg/day. Symptoms have subsided and appetite has returned. Not taking any chances though, Doc appt on Wed morning for bloods - ealiest I can get in. I'll post labs when they come through.

O
Hope all goes well
Please post labs
Stay healthy !

 

[AaronJP1]

I just got my blood results back from a month ago. Ast - 46 (1-35) and alt - 72 (30-65) is this something to worry about?

What were u taking for a PH and what support sup?

 

[EasyEJL]

I just got my blood results back from a month ago. Ast - 46 (1-35) and alt - 72 (30-65) is this something to worry about?

most doctors would let you still use prescription meds that cause liver issues at those #s. hopefully that was on or just after an oral cycle though, if its not then it could be a health issue.

 

[Mafesto31]

What were u taking for a PH and what support sup?

Ran androhard in Dec-Jan w no support. This test was march 21st. I have a few (sometimes too many) beers 1 night a week on average. Diet is clean and I drink a lot of water. I was planning on starting a test/dbol cycle soon but...

 

[AaronJP1]

Ran androhard in Dec-Jan w no support. This test was march 21st. I have a few (sometimes too many) beers 1 night a week on average. Diet is clean and I drink a lot of water. I was planning on starting a test/dbol cycle soon but...

Don't think AndroHard would do that to your liver.

 

[jpg0923]

@MikeG313 were you cycling superdrol when that happened to you?

 

[aceroni]

my buddy only ran nolvadex xt for his pct... is that not enough? he didnt seem to have that bad of suppression, but then again, he did lose some gains.. but THEN AGAIN, its hard to tell cause he got so retartedly bloated on the mdrol, he had to become unbloated after.

 

[evodrag]

Dam, Maybe I wont run some super dmz this summer... Ill just add tren ace instead. Although I dont think its great for the liver either

 

[mikeg313]

@MikeG313 were you cycling superdrol when that happened to you?

Yes I was. It was my second and last sd cycle. The first one went well so six months later I ran the second and that happened. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you're not.

 

[GodofWine]

Is there any shred of evidence that liver supps (besides tudca) do anything at all...i mean I've never seen a liver blood panel look "good" after a methyl cycle. I'm thinking that the only way to be"safe" is use of tudca or dropping doses back down to sane dosing patterns that many have seem to abandoned "cause I got liv 52 bro, it's ayruvedic, and studied"

 

[BadSeed]

Yes I was. It was my second and last sd cycle. The first one went well so six months later I ran the second and that happened. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you're not.

Thats crazy that it was the same compound. I ran Ultra stacked w Trenazone a few months back and had ZERO issues. Best cycle ever, This time, Ultra solo does me in. Go figure.

 

[B5150]

Is there any shred of evidence that liver supps (besides tudca) do anything at all...i mean I've never seen a liver blood panel look "good" after a methyl cycle. I'm thinking that the only way to be"safe" is use of tudca or dropping doses back down to sane dosing patterns that many have seem to abandoned "cause I got liv 52 bro, it's ayruvedic, and studied"

They do exist.

Up to 50mg/d with only 800mg NAC and 600mg ALA.

You should pay more concern to lipids IMHO.

 

[JudoJosh]

You should pay more concern to lipids IMHO.

I am going to have a thread on this up shortly.. not sure how much of an increased risk actually come from androgen use despite the changes in lipid profiles. Seems to be fairly unclear what these changes truly represent

 

[murk01]

Yes I was. It was my second and last sd cycle. The first one went well so six months later I ran the second and that happened. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you're not.

Fuk. I'm gearing up for a suprdrol cycle. U hear so many mixed reveiws about this...kinda makes me think about backing down and staying natty. I remember when u posted about ur heart attack hope all is good now g
Stress is #1 killing. Above all else

 

[AaronJP1]

TUDCA

 

[mikeg313]

Fuk. I'm gearing up for a suprdrol cycle. U hear so many mixed reveiws about this...kinda makes me think about backing down and staying natty. I remember when u posted about ur heart attack hope all is good now g
Stress is #1 killing. Above all else

Doing better now. I'm not a fan of orals but if I didn't have that experience then I'd most likely still run them. Just be careful as you can and take all the precautions. Risks are there but so are rewards. It's just luck sometimes what ya get but I'd say the odds are in your favor just not %100

 

[jbryand101b]

No, never suffered serious liver damage. I'm not a dumbass.

 

[B5150]

I am going to have a thread on this up shortly.. not sure how much of an increased risk actually come from androgen use despite the changes in lipid profiles. Seems to be fairly unclear what these changes truly represent

IMHO any adverse liver function that may take place in some will do so with Tylenol, Rx, alcohol, excercise and a host of other variables, that for the verty most part, once the substance is removed, usually return to healthy baseline values rather rapidly. The liver is quite resilient in that capacilty. Using precautionary protective anti-oxidant supplements tends to be effective as those liver values clearly display.

On the otherhand the precautionary measures taken by most tend not to be as protective to lipids. In regard to lipids I would be more concerned because there can tend to be a greater delay in return to healthy normal range of lipid values, if at all, in some users. IMHO lipids produce greater risk to overall health.

 

[SPS]

I'm not a dumbass.

Not sure if srs? Haha just kidding, but I am sure you have looked into the matter do you have any other thoughts on oral aas and liver damage?

 

[SuperPro]

Can someone explain to me about lipids? Or link me, also don't know what TUDCA is, I'm about to start first cycle (helladrol) which is supposed to be mild but I do have concerns about liver damage. Also though I rarely drink alcohol anymore, maybe one or two drinks every month or two.

 

[AaronJP1]

Can someone explain to me about lipids? Or link me, also don't know what TUDCA is, I'm about to start first cycle (helladrol) which is supposed to be mild but I do have concerns about liver damage. Also though I rarely drink alcohol anymore, maybe one or two drinks every month or two.

There's some threads around this board on TUDCA.

 

[SuperPro]

There's some threads around this board on TUDCA.

Yeah I'm going through some but so far only finding stuff about how to dose it or how it compares to other things.

 

[AaronJP1]

Maybe someone can chime in for me, but all I'm running is my cycle and TUDCA, & baby chewable aspirin, I actually put a hold on Organ Shield (which has NAC, Milk Thistle) cause I think I was getting more head aches from Organ Shield.

So TUDCA is effective enough by itself correct?

 

[EasyEJL]

Can someone explain to me about lipids? Or link me, also don't know what TUDCA is, I'm about to start first cycle (helladrol) which is supposed to be mild but I do have concerns about liver damage. Also though I rarely drink alcohol anymore, maybe one or two drinks every month or two.

lipids is cholesterol levels. Most orals drop your hdl significantly while raising your LDL. long term leads to arterial stiffening, plaque, etc

 

[JudoJosh]

IMHO any adverse liver function that may take place in some will do so with Tylenol, Rx, alcohol, excercise and a host of other variables, that for the verty most part, once the substance is removed, usually return to healthy baseline values rather rapidly. The liver is quite resilient in that capacilty. Using precautionary protective anti-oxidant supplements tends to be effective as those liver values clearly display.

I agree completely but overall I think the hepatotoxicity from oral steroids have been exaggerated as simply using AST/ALT ratios (which is what most use to gauge) can be misleading

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/199435-anabolic-steroid-induced.html

On the otherhand the precautionary measures taken by most tend not to be as protective to lipids. In regard to lipids I would be more concerned because there can tend to be a greater delay in return to healthy normal range of lipid values, if at all, in some users. IMHO lipids produce greater risk to overall health.

There is no doubt that androgens have a significant effect on our lipids however these androgen induced declines in HDL does not automatically have to be assumed to be proatherogenic but instead may be the result of accelerated reverse cholesterol transport and not necessarily equal an increased CVD risk.

Androgens increase the activity of hepatic triglyceride lipase (HTGL) (PMID:4033402) and it is believed that HTGL activity is pretty protective against CVD risk (PMID:7853704) which then ask the question, does the reduced amount of HDL particles one experiences as a result from androgen use actually lead to an increased CVD risk considering the protective activity of some of the HDL fractions are not reduced?

 

[jaydollars]

I agree completely but overall I think the hepatotoxicity from oral steroids have been exaggerated as simply using AST/ALT ratios (which is what most use to gauge) can be misleading

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/199435-anabolic-steroid-induced.html

There is no doubt that androgens have a significant effect on our lipids however these androgen induced declines in HDL does not automatically have to be assumed to be proatherogenic but instead may be the result of accelerated reverse cholesterol transport and not necessarily equal an increased CVD risk.

Androgens increase the activity of hepatic triglyceride lipase (HTGL) (PMID:4033402) and it is believed that HTGL activity is pretty protective against CVD risk (PMID:7853704) which then ask the question, does the reduced amount of HDL particles one experiences as a result from androgen use actually lead to an increased CVD risk considering the protective activity of some of the HDL fractions are not reduced?

I need to know what this means in laymans terms, am I too concerned with HDL reduction

 

[JudoJosh]

I need to know what this means in laymans terms, am I too concerned with HDL reduction

No you arent, the take away wasnt to suggest that we should make light of HDL reductions as they are definitely negatively correlated with CVD and HDL does have a protective effect, rather that the implication this androgen induced reduction has isnt as clear as it seems.

 

[jbryand101b]

but I am sure you have looked into the matter do you have any other thoughts on oral aas and liver damage?

I have looked into it.

I think a lot of factors will come into play here, with the biggest one being genetics.

people dont generally tend to live healthy lifestyles, then they want to go and use steroids, add in genetic factors, and you could have a problem.

I dont really have any other thoughts on the subject.

 

[jaydollars]

Any ideas on how to keep HDL up while on cycle?

 

[EasyEJL]

Any ideas on how to keep HDL up while on cycle?

fish oil helps, looks like ursolic acid helps too.

 

[AaronJP1]

Maybe someone can chime in for me, but all I'm running is my cycle and TUDCA, & baby chewable aspirin, I actually put a hold on Organ Shield (which has NAC, Milk Thistle) cause I think I was getting more head aches from Organ Shield.

So TUDCA is effective enough by itself correct?

Bump for response....

 

[SuperPro]

I guess one way to think about it would be comparing it to drinking liquor. Some people drink stupid high amounts of liquor, some people take stupid amounts of oral AAS/PH. If someone drinks liquor till they black out each day for 8 weeks then I'd be willing to wager they have an increased risk of liver damage over your average Joe. Same thing with methyls, your risk is going to increase the higher the dose and length.

That being said I've probably read as many threads advocating for the safety of oral AAS/PH lately as I have threads saying that they are extremely bad for you. I'm not saying there is no degree of risk, but I think that it's probably lower than some people believe. Just look at the number of people taking oral AAS/PH compared to the number who have had liver problems. I know a few users in RL who have had no problems as of yet, and I know there are a few or more on these boards as well.

 

[jiggero]

with a stupid stripper that used to date a buddy. She was hot as **** but horrible in bed and called me daddy oh daddy the whole time. I remember thinking this sucks and had to think about fuking my gf to bust a nut.

A hot sexy stripper f.ucks you, calling you daddy oh daddy.
I feel your pain.That must've been horrible for you.

 

[jaydollars]

Bump for response....

I have seen only limited blood work on TUDCA, but it keeps liver enzymes way down, never saw anything as effective

 

[AaronJP1]

I have seen only limited blood work on TUDCA, but it keeps liver enzymes way down, never saw anything as effective

Thx.

 

[vidapreta]

A hot sexy stripper f.ucks you, calling you daddy oh daddy.
I feel your pain.That must've been horrible for you.

Lmfao

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[B5150]

I guess one way to think about it would be comparing it to drinking liquor. Some people drink stupid high amounts of liquor, some people take stupid amounts of oral AAS/PH. If someone drinks liquor till they black out each day for 8 weeks then I'd be willing to wager they have an increased risk of liver damage over your average Joe. Same thing with methyls, your risk is going to increase the higher the dose and length.

That being said I've probably read as many threads advocating for the safety of oral AAS/PH lately as I have threads saying that they are extremely bad for you. I'm not saying there is no degree of risk, but I think that it's probably lower than some people believe. Just look at the number of people taking oral AAS/PH compared to the number who have had liver problems. I know a few users in RL who have had no problems as of yet, and I know there are a few or more on these boards as well.

That is because everything your read on the internet is true!

 

[SuperPro]

That is because everything your read on the internet is true!

True dat homez

 

[T-Bone]

Still no proof that these so called support supplements can actually prevent damage to your liver caused by oral anabolic steroids. Just because someone has gone through a cycle with cycle support while taking a harsh oral steroid and their liver blood test results came out fine doesn't prove that the "cycle support" was/is the reason that the liver showed minimal damage or impact from the steroid. That same person may just react that way to that particular steroid. So even if he/she hadn't taken the cycle support product the results would have or could have been the same. The only way to prove it would be to have the same person take the same steroid without the cycle support. Still though there are so many variables that can effect your liver so it is almost impossible to prove.

 

[pyrobatt]

I thought I had liver damage.I actually had galstones due to nolva and running winny clone.Freaking cholesterol...I developed the signs of liver damage.Jaundice,dark urine,and pain in abdomen.I apperntly passed several in the ER and walked out with everything being fine.Weird.

 

[AaronJP1]

I thought I had liver damage.I actually had galstones due to nolva and running winny clone.Freaking cholesterol...I developed the signs of liver damage.Jaundice,dark urine,and pain in abdomen.I apperntly passed several in the ER and walked out with everything being fine.Weird.

What's considered dark urine?

 

[EasyEJL]

Still no proof that these so called support supplements can actually prevent damage to your liver caused by oral anabolic steroids. Just because someone has gone through a cycle with cycle support while taking a harsh oral steroid and their liver blood test results came out fine doesn't prove that the "cycle support" was/is the reason that the liver showed minimal damage or impact from the steroid. That same person may just react that way to that particular steroid. So even if he/she hadn't taken the cycle support product the results would have or could have been the same. The only way to prove it would be to have the same person take the same steroid without the cycle support. Still though there are so many variables that can effect your liver so it is almost impossible to prove.

absolutely true. At the same time, outside of some cases like yours, levels even up to 2x top of range are still fine and bounce back within weeks. People prescribed statins or other drugs that have liver impact are generally still prescribed them up to that level, but they get monitored monthly

 

[murk01]

Still no proof that these so called support supplements can actually prevent damage to your liver caused by oral anabolic steroids. Just because someone has gone through a cycle with cycle support while taking a harsh oral steroid and their liver blood test results came out fine doesn't prove that the "cycle support" was/is the reason that the liver showed minimal damage or impact from the steroid. That same person may just react that way to that particular steroid. So even if he/she hadn't taken the cycle support product the results would have or could have been the same. The only way to prove it would be to have the same person take the same steroid without the cycle support. Still though there are so many variables that can effect your liver so it is almost impossible to prove.

True. That's y u see some story of dudes using cycle supps. And still getting f-ed up sides. How much safer is pinning opposed to orals.

 

[BadSeed]

True. That's y u see some story of dudes using cycle supps. And still getting f-ed up sides. How much safer is pinning opposed to orals.

^This. Curious myself.

 

[vidapreta]

Much easier on the liver..generaly

 

[murk01]

I remember my cuz still had to use milk thistle with test

 

[EasyEJL]

I remember my cuz still had to use milk thistle with test

"had to"? Why? no point to that at all.

 

[murk01]

"had to"? Why? no point to that at all.

Really?.... I have no clue. That's what some one told him. So he did. This was a few years back. Who ever told him to use thistle didnt say anything about pct.

 

[BadSeed]

Alright, labs are in. Here we go. Keep in mind this was after 30 days of 20mg ed Ultradrol and Cycle Assist. Started Aegis Shield 3 days before cycle end and got these labs 4 days after cycle end. So 7 days on TUDCA. I listed mainly things that are outside range though I included Bilirubin and AST in case anyone was curious. Bolds are my data and ref ranges are included. No GGT test was included.

Bilirubin .5 0.2-1.2mg/dl
Alkaline Phosphate 32 40-115U/L
AST 35 10-40 U/L
ALT 4.93 .4-4.50 mIU/L

TSH 4.93 .40-4.50 mIU/L
RDW 15.5 11.0 - 15.0 %

Cholesterol Total 260 125-200mg/dl
HDL 13 > or = 40 mg/dl
LDL 222 <130 mg/dL
CHOL/HDLC RATIO 20.0 < = 5.0%

Estradiaol is 35. IGF, Dihydrotest, Free Test, and Progesterone still say pending. Should have them in a couple days.

Cholesterol is bad news. Liver values I don't know enough about to speak on them.