The Ecdysterone Thread

[LG Sciences]

The only way I have ever had Ecdysterone work is using it topically. It is pretty easy to make into a topical, since it disolves into alcohol quite readily. That being said, topicals are not mainstream, so what were my experiences?

I first started taking Ecdy when I head about it in 1999 by Dr. Duarte. I found some 10mg capsules being sold and NOTHING...

Then I saw Kilosports was selling the powder BINGO I thought and bought some. Took 500mg per day and NOTHING...

I took 1200mg per day when we started making Product X Dermasize and NOTHING. Topically was really the only way I ever got any results and I think they are pretty good. I had a friend filter some and inject it and quite honestly, he said it seemed to work for him, but the half life of ecdysterone is questionable.

So, why then do we keep seeing the same **** repackaged over and over when we know it doesn't work? Why do ecdysterone based supplements KEEP resurfacing. If someone could at least explain the improvement over the prior generations, I might be interested...that never happens. So, what are you experiences?

 

[AtomSmasher]

Ive taken a couple ecdy products including bulk. I really cant say i noticed anything from them. The last time, which was about a year ago, i took it was for 8 weeks and still nothing. Im done with ecdysterone I dont see a reason to try any new product with it in it as a main ingredient

 

[LG Sciences]

I don't disagree with you. Topically it works, but it isn't a huge mass builder for sure, more of a finishing product on top of your prohormone product.

 

[Mixelflick]

I don't disagree with you. Topically it works, but it isn't a huge mass builder for sure, more of a finishing product on top of your prohormone product.

Hello again LG

The improvement over prior generations is primarily related to ecdysterone source. Rhaponticum Carthamoides is the reference standard if you will, with the bulk of human research. RC was in fact, the original compound the Soviet Ekdisten drug was derived from.

Prior generation Ecdy's were derived from the much cheaper Suma, Pfaffia Paniculata (Suma, different name) or cyanotis vaga. 20-hydroxyecdysterone was what they were looking for and I share your opinion it is worthless orally, works well transdermally. There have been 400+ other ecdysterones identified. The ones I feel work well orally are cyasterone, ponasterone, turkesterone to name a few. They are all included in RC extract and appear in precise ratios together referred to as "levsins" in the research.

They keep reappearing because the consumer feels something over time, albeit nothing dramatic like PH. Given the mode of action is likely incorporation into the cell membrane a la fish oil, this isn't surprising. For many of us, they work well and greatly reduce DOMS, add that extra rep and up total workload capacity during the workout. If you get a good RC extract, dose it hard and pick up some urinary testing strips for protein excretion, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I think you did a nice job with dermasize, for what it's worth. It's hard to overcome "bro-telligence" though on BB.com when everyone tries to compares it to Superdrol.

 

[ReaperX]

For what it is worth, the benefits that I have experienced do not outweigh the cost for a quality extraction of ecdy.

 

[tilerbreaker]

Well I'm no expert and haven't really read all that much about ecdys, but it just so happens that yesterday I was reading a big review about them and two things stood out to me. First, ecdysterones (and I'm generalizing here about all ecdys...there may be exceptions to what I'm saying) have big bulky groups at C17 that would prevent them from acting on androgen receptors. Therefore, any effects seen have to be coming from some other mechanism, which isn't really known to date. The second thing is that ectdys are hydrophilic, which means they readily dissolve in water, which is the opposite from most steroids (which are hydrophobic and dissolve in oil or some organic solvent). What this means practically is that ecdys will not be able to pass through cell membranes in the same way that steroids do. Therefore, if they are going to have effects, they will have to act through receptors on the surface of cells or will have to be actively transported to the inside of cells. I don't know if either of these mechanisms have been found or proven, but perhaps this is the direction of future research.

Anyway, just some ideas for thoughts or discussion...

 

[LG Sciences]

Hello again LG

The improvement over prior generations is primarily related to ecdysterone source. Rhaponticum Carthamoides is the reference standard if you will, with the bulk of human research. RC was in fact, the original compound the Soviet Ekdisten drug was derived from.

Prior generation Ecdy's were derived from the much cheaper Suma, Pfaffia Paniculata (Suma, different name) or cyanotis vaga. 20-hydroxyecdysterone was what they were looking for and I share your opinion it is worthless orally, works well transdermally. There have been 400+ other ecdysterones identified. The ones I feel work well orally are cyasterone, ponasterone, turkesterone to name a few. They are all included in RC extract and appear in precise ratios together referred to as "levsins" in the research.

They keep reappearing because the consumer feels something over time, albeit nothing dramatic like PH. Given the mode of action is likely incorporation into the cell membrane a la fish oil, this isn't surprising. For many of us, they work well and greatly reduce DOMS, add that extra rep and up total workload capacity during the workout. If you get a good RC extract, dose it hard and pick up some urinary testing strips for protein excretion, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I think you did a nice job with dermasize, for what it's worth. It's hard to overcome "bro-telligence" though on BB.com when everyone tries to compares it to Superdrol.

Hey my man! Good to see you. Yeah, Dermasize would do well against any product out on the market today. It just didn't compare to SuperD or M1Test. Plus, you had Pat Arnold do a hatchet job on it and our reputation. Interestingly enough users reported 4-6lbs with one bottle of Dermasize and it still has many fans.

We disagree about the oral versions and where they come from. I don't think the RC extract is any better orally than the Suma or any others, but that is my oppinion and I could of course be wrong.

That brings me to a serious point. NO ONE IS ALWAYS RIGHT...not me, certainly not that louse Pat Arnold...no one. We can all learn from each other and we have a lot to offer.

Methyl 1-D and the Androsterone derivitives all came to me and Seth from a question from a layperson He said "can't you put a 17aMethyl on DHEA?" No, but you can do a lot of other things like change the function, attach esters and change the structure, which was the basis of our patent.

 

[slow-mun]

Is Seth Roberts still doing most of the designing for you? Just wondering, b/c he's been behind some great things.

 

[icanrace]

I am a fan of E-bol personally..........

 

[Distilled Water]

I posted this before I was a rep for the record but I used Dermasize during a PCT back in the day and I thought it was solid. I kept all the weight I put on during cycle and strength contnued to climb...

Cycle was Masterdrol and M1P cycle (18lbs!!)

PCT was Low dose Nolva, Formadrol, Trib, ZMA and Dermasize

 

[Mixelflick]

Hey my man! Good to see you. Yeah, Dermasize would do well against any product out on the market today. It just didn't compare to SuperD or M1Test. Plus, you had Pat Arnold do a hatchet job on it and our reputation. Interestingly enough users reported 4-6lbs with one bottle of Dermasize and it still has many fans.

We disagree about the oral versions and where they come from. I don't think the RC extract is any better orally than the Suma or any others, but that is my oppinion and I could of course be wrong.

That brings me to a serious point. NO ONE IS ALWAYS RIGHT...not me, certainly not that louse Pat Arnold...no one. We can all learn from each other and we have a lot to offer.

Methyl 1-D and the Androsterone derivitives all came to me and Seth from a question from a layperson He said "can't you put a 17aMethyl on DHEA?" No, but you can do a lot of other things like change the function, attach esters and change the structure, which was the basis of our patent.

Nice to see you here too. It sure beats BB.com and bro-telligence.

Ah, transdermal ecdy. Yours truly once ran 2g/day with "rose scented" dmso cream. Covered the entire body. Lost a lot of friends but recovered damn quickly from my workouts.

 

[LG Sciences]

Is Seth Roberts still doing most of the designing for you? Just wondering, b/c he's been behind some great things.

No, we are still friends, but he is working on other projects.

 

[jjohn]

I have to say that I tried about 7 different products in that dept. and the only one that did something was e-bol. But it is probably not even the ecdy that had the effects...

 

[bioman]

I get a small boost in endurance and recovery from ecdy products as well as a minor increase in N retention/muscle fullness. Nice effects but it doesn't justify the price for me most of the time. If I go on a big hiking spree, then I stock up on it.

I'd be curious to see how the trans version pans out.

 

[LG Sciences]

I think the topical would be a finishing product for people that want to really boost their stack of a methyl PH or a real steroid cycle.

I do believe it has protein synthisis properties. Most certainly the Russians injected it. The papers quoted never discussed how they dosed it...

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Both Mixelflick and Ron Kramer have turned me back on to ecdys.

Truth be told, Mixel is right about tha additional nitrogen retention properties. I've tried it.This response is much more apparent in a calorie deficit where as you can extend amino concentrations around an additional two hours, otherwise in a surplus I agree with most that you are probably just wasting money. I tend to think tha harder you diet, tha more adventagous.

Mixel, just and FYI... One cap of E-Bol with every meal has worked well. Remember however, at present I'm only weighing in just over 160 lbs. I may try 2 caps 4x a day next go-round and mark changes.

 

[Mixelflick]

Both Mixelflick and Ron Kramer have turned me back on to ecdys.

Truth be told, Mixel is right about tha additional nitrogen retention properties. I've tried it.This response is much more apparent in a calorie deficit where as you can extend amino concentrations around an additional two hours, otherwise in a surplus I agree with most that you are probably just wasting money. I tend to think tha harder you diet, tha more adventagous.

Mixel, just and FYI... One cap of E-Bol with every meal has worked well. Remember however, at present I'm only weighing in just over 160 lbs. I may try 2 caps 4x a day next go-round and mark changes.

Hey, nice to hear from you Toadster. Glad the ecdy is working out for you. And thanks for taking nitrogen retention measurements. At least you know for certain now it's money wells spent on a cut..

 

[LG Sciences]

Interesting. A lot of people seem to think it works. I have to say I have tried a lot of ecdy products and dermasize was the only one I have ever felt worked (not pimping my own product, just being honest). Could be a bunch of factors and possibly the extract isn't as good as the total herb. Seems to be the case with Cumin/Curcumin...LEF just brought out a new Curcumin blend that is the whole complex and suposedly have 4X the blood levels.

 

[sethroberts]

Is Seth Roberts still doing most of the designing for you? Just wondering, b/c he's been behind some great things.

Thanks - I am available for weddings and barmitzvahs.

 

[slow-mun]

Thanks - I am available for weddings and barmitzvahs.

Welcome back:wave:

 

[thesinner]

Pro's:
-Issues with half-life and absorption have always been an issue with ecdy.

Con's:
-It's kind of a bulky steroid, about 25% larger than the majority of steroids used in transdermals are under 300 amu, while 20-hydroxy-betaecdysone is 480 amu.
-It lowers cholesterol in a bad way, thereby (in theory) limiting the body's ability to produce androgens due to lack of substrate.
-Lastly, we have the issue with getting a pure enough preparation to be applied transdermally at an effective dose, for a cost low enough to justify the results.

As a recovery aid, endurance enhancer, and for helping increase vascularity, I like ecdysterones. Personally, some bulk mixed with piperine always did the trick for me. As so many have attempted and failed, ecdy isn't exactly something to be used as an anabolic; however, I would be somewhat interested to see what it can do if stacked with actual steroids. Since it does increase nitrogen retention and it does lower cholesterol, an androgen receptor agonist (i.e. AAS) might be interesting to stack, since AAS increase cholesterol.

 

[liftbig74]

Do you guys think Omnibolic is any good?
You can check it out at www.omnibolic.com

 

[LG Sciences]

I wouldn't be concerned about point #2...I think dermally ecdysterone is great stacked with other PH's which is why I brought it out.

 

[thesinner]

I wouldn't be concerned about point #2...I think dermally ecdysterone is great stacked with other PH's which is why I brought it out.

Yeah, con #2 can be overlooked when combined with an AR agonist.

 

[scoooter]

Do you guys think Omnibolic is any good?
You can check it out at www.omnibolic.com

This is an oral product. Wouldn't say its any better, or worse, never tried this brand. It takes 5 pills per dose which can be a hassel, and costly. The actual amount (75mg) could be on the low side. That company flooded AM fourms with ad's for their stuff to a point near obnoxious. Their threads seemed to have disappeared and haven't heard much about them on AM. Saw them also posting like crazy on other Health fourms. Same story...they seemed to have busted into the supplement scean with a vengance. Again, they are one of many providing ECDY.

 

[pushinweightw]

I will agree with the poster who said ecdy works best when cutting. The only time I have has success with it is during a cutting phase(preserving muscle that is). As far as bulking with it never had success.

 

[ZIMM]

The only way I have ever had Ecdysterone work is using it topically. It is pretty easy to make into a topical, since it disolves into alcohol quite readily. That being said, topicals are not mainstream, so what were my experiences?

I first started taking Ecdy when I head about it in 1999 by Dr. Duarte. I found some 10mg capsules being sold and NOTHING...

Then I saw Kilosports was selling the powder BINGO I thought and bought some. Took 500mg per day and NOTHING...

I took 1200mg per day when we started making Product X Dermasize and NOTHING. Topically was really the only way I ever got any results and I think they are pretty good. I had a friend filter some and inject it and quite honestly, he said it seemed to work for him, but the half life of ecdysterone is questionable.

So, why then do we keep seeing the same **** repackaged over and over when we know it doesn't work? Why do ecdysterone based supplements KEEP resurfacing. If someone could at least explain the improvement over the prior generations, I might be interested...that never happens. So, what are you experiences?

How can it work transdermally when the mw is 480?
Are you using a different form that has a lower mw?



methoxy's mw is under 300 so maybe all the results are coming from the methoxy?


personally I have always gained 5 lbs and looked harder and more vascular from any ecedy product I have used since my first time using syntrax ecedy in 2001.I Always lose the 5 lbs after I go off, so I would guess its nitrogen retention ect...

My dose was always 1 gram a day spread out..

 

[Mixelflick]

I will agree with the poster who said ecdy works best when cutting. The only time I have has success with it is during a cutting phase(preserving muscle that is). As far as bulking with it never had success.

This feedback is quite common and I think I know why.

High quality ecdy is known to stimulate cGMP. If you study the conditions normally associated with cGMP sans ecdy, you see that it usually involves a caloric surplus, super-stocking of energy substrates etc.

On the other hand, cAMP is associated with dieting, depleted substrate levels etc. In truth, cAMP works hand in glove to potentiate cGMP and vice versa. What does all this tell us?

I speculate that once cGMP is activated on a bulk the addition of ecdy confers minimal additional benefit. The flip side of that coin is that cAMP can be used to potentiate ecdy's upside.

I think I have worked out the timing of that transition window. Running different ecdy's for different time durations though (to find the optimal use protocol), is proving to be time consuming.

 

[LG Sciences]

You can get things through dermally that are bigger than 300, that is what the PE's are for...

 

[Distilled Water]

You can get things through dermally that are bigger than 300, that is what the PE's are for...

Just make a sterile version.....A "pain free oral solution" if you will

 

[aj power]

This stuff is apparently band in Australia which made me think it would be a goer. When I ordered it over the net it came in no problem. However when I finally got it I found I had no result at all for me. I was using oral at recommended doses.

 

[Vipersg123]

has anyone ever tried making a sublingual form of ecdy? Not sure if it would work better or worse or at all, but its just a thought.

In my own experience I have tried Anagen, proanabol, and e-bol... I got results from e-bol and possibly anagen, but that could have been placebo and just normal results. All in all I won't try another ecdy product unless its something new and innovative which could possibly cause it to have some more profound effect

 

[LatSpread]

In my experience Dermasize was better than E-Bol, but no ecdy product Ive used to date have I been a repeat customer of.

 

[LG Sciences]

We could possibly try a sublingual... I will look into it. Seth turned me on to this killer sublingual delivery enhancer that is expensive ($1000 a kilo) but should work really well.

 

[madchemist]

We could possibly try a sublingual... I will look into it. Seth turned me on to this killer sublingual delivery enhancer that is expensive ($1000 a kilo) but should work really well.

Cyclodextrin?

 

[thesinner]

HPBC has gotten so expensive over the years. It sucks. I hate you supply/demand correlation.

 

[russianstar]

Hey guys seeming as im russian, and know a few guys who competed in the 80s and 90s i asked them about Ecdysterone, they are pretty sure that it helps when injected into individual muscles, the nitrogen retention, and something else wich i need to translate, causes quite good muscle and strength gains in specific muscles where it is injected.
Im asking around for the formula they used, how they did it etc, as soon as i know for sure il post it here.

 

[LG Sciences]

My friend injected it and got good results.

Also, the 300 MW issue is really just a guideline, there is certainly room to get larger things through with PE's.

 

[tswprez]

anyone use LA muscle norateen heavyweight II ???

 

[LG Sciences]

Cyclodextrin is expensive, but this stuff is $1000 a kilo cyclodextrin is only $90

 

[michael75]

I read that with Ecdysterone it takes 5mg per kg of body weight to be effective,i took 600mg a day,prior to this i had no experience with any other products and i did find that over a couple of months i did make some real gains.

Strength and stamina was the most prominent feature of this compound.For me this did work.