Wife Has COVID-19

THOR 70

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Depends on where you live (urban or rural). One thing is for certain: The Pfizer vaccine is better than getting actual covid, which is a strong possibility for both her and the baby. Yes, the covid spike proteins formed by the vaccine have some minute potential to cause injury, but the same spike proteins are present in 100s of times the potency in the event of an actual infection, on top of the infection itself.

A decision not to vax is very hard to justify with a disease this contagious. My aunt and uncle decided not to vax. My uncle died because of it. Suffocated in front of us while on 100% oxygen. He died half from Covid and half from anti-vax hysteria.

There's no reason for the paranoia over such a simple mechanism: the strip of rna that encodes the spike protein encased in a chemical shell - the rna is eliminated as soon as it is used, and the single batch of spike proteins that result are cleared in 2 days.
Your post if full of illogical and false statements. Mostly:
1. It’s unknown and very individual how one will fair from both the vaccine and/or covid long and short term.

2. You uncle did not die because of his decision to not vax. He died of covid. He very well could have been one of the thousands who are having very bad reactions or death from the vaccine.


That being said, I’m sorry for your loss.
 

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Your post if full of illogical and false statements. Mostly:
1. It’s unknown and very individual how one will fair from both the vaccine and/or covid long and short term.

2. You uncle did not die because of his decision to not vax. He died of covid. He very well could have been one of the thousands who are having very bad reactions or death from the vaccine.


That being said, I’m sorry for your loss.
You missed the point. The only harm vector with the Pfizer vaccine is the spike proteins, which is orders of magnitude more severe in the event of covid. So suffice it to say that someone who exhibits adverse effects after getting the shot would necessarily react far worse to actual covid.

There is 1 confirmed death from the Pfizer shot. It's safer than Tylenol. People who quote death stats don't realize that those numbers are baseline for the time window and population sample being analyzed.
 

jorelldye

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Your post if full of illogical and false statements. Mostly:
1. It’s unknown and very individual how one will fair from both the vaccine and/or covid long and short term.

2. You uncle did not die because of his decision to not vax. He died of covid. He very well could have been one of the thousands who are having very bad reactions or death from the vaccine.


That being said, I’m sorry for your loss.
Thank you for your respect and condolences, regardless
 
Kronic

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You missed the point. The only harm vector with the Pfizer vaccine is the spike proteins, which is orders of magnitude more severe in the event of covid. So suffice it to say that someone who exhibits adverse effects after getting the shot would necessarily react far worse to actual covid.

There is 1 confirmed death from the Pfizer shot. It's safer than Tylenol. People who quote death stats don't realize that those numbers are baseline for the time window and population sample being analyzed.
they literally have myocarditis in the official Pfizer vaccine fact sheet from 2019. how could something with known myocarditis and blood clot issues only have one death associated? I'm sorry but that doesnt make a lot of sense.


Tell the vaccination provider about all of your medical conditions, including if
you:
• have any allergies
• have had myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) or pericarditis
(inflammation of the lining outside the heart)
• have a fever
• have a bleeding disorder or are on a blood thinner
• are immunocompromised or are on a medicine that affects your immune system
• are pregnant or plan to become pregnant
• are breastfeeding
• have received another COVID-19 vaccine
• have ever fainted in association with an injection
 
THOR 70

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You missed the point. The only harm vector with the Pfizer vaccine is the spike proteins, which is orders of magnitude more severe in the event of covid. So suffice it to say that someone who exhibits adverse effects after getting the shot would necessarily react far worse to actual covid.

There is 1 confirmed death from the Pfizer shot. It's safer than Tylenol. People who quote death stats don't realize that those numbers are baseline for the time window and population sample being analyzed.
No offense, but I still don’t feel you have made any valid points for me to miss. You have made some intriguing statements, but they are overshadowed with statements that are impossible to support.

You say with confidence that the spike proteins have no harm, but there is zero long term studies supporting your ability to say that as fact. I understand that you think your understanding of the MOA is sufficient to make this claim, but it’s irresponsible.

“ROBERT Malone, the doctor who invented mRNA vaccine technology, has warned the vaccines are “very dangerous” because of an unforeseen cytotoxic (toxic to cells) effect of the spike proteins encoded by the vaccines.”


Lastly, you sound a bit disconnected or over zealous when you say 1 person as died from the Pfizer vaccine. Maybe “confirmed” is what you’re hanging your hat on, and you’re disregarding anyone who died months after getting the vaccine? Please do explain...
 

jorelldye

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they literally have myocarditis in the official Pfizer vaccine fact sheet from 2019. how could something with known myocarditis and blood clot issues only have one death associated? I'm sorry but that doesnt make a lot of sense.


Tell the vaccination provider about all of your medical conditions, including if
you:
• have any allergies
• have had myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) or pericarditis
(inflammation of the lining outside the heart)
• have a fever
• have a bleeding disorder or are on a blood thinner
• are immunocompromised or are on a medicine that affects your immune system
• are pregnant or plan to become pregnant
• are breastfeeding
• have received another COVID-19 vaccine
• have ever fainted in association with an injection
One confirmed death, yes, and unironically it was indeed heart inflammation. But if someone will suffer from myocarditis after getting the vaccine, imagine the severity had they been infected with actual covid...

The point is not that the spike proteins resulting from the vaccine are harmless. It's that they are far less potent in the blood after a vaccine than in the case of an infection.

In a similar example the MMR vaccine causes encephalitis in a few recipients, just like measles proper, just at a drastically lower rate.

You can list off any maladies you want re: the pfizer vaccine, and they are vastly worse with actual covid, especially and most obviously, deaths.
 
Kronic

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One confirmed death, yes, and unironically it was indeed heart inflammation. But if someone will suffer from myocarditis after getting the vaccine, imagine the severity had they been infected with actual covid...

The point is not that the spike proteins resulting from the vaccine are harmless. It's that they are far less potent in the blood after a vaccine than in the case of an infection.

In a similar example the MMR vaccine causes encephalitis in a few recipients, just like measles proper, just at a drastically lower rate.

You can list off any maladies you want re: the pfizer vaccine, and they are vastly worse with actual covid, especially and most obviously, deaths.
my grandpa had sudden heart issues after getting moderna'd. guess noone will care unless he dies and we have irrefutable evidence that the vaccine shortend his life.

this is all a bunch of crap. the vaccine was intended to stay in the deltoid but in some cases it's traveling into organs and the immune response in these cases is attacking the organs
 

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my grandpa had sudden heart issues after getting moderna'd. guess noone will care unless he dies and we have irrefutable evidence that the vaccine shortend his life.

this is all a bunch of crap. the vaccine was intended to stay in the deltoid but in some cases it's traveling into organs and the immune response in these cases is attacking the organs
Who told you that it was to remain in the deltoid? The rna remains in the deltoid. The spike proteins will travel everywhere. But yes I am glad that he has been vaxxed should the real beast come along, and a megadose of the same spike proteins with it.

Sorry to hear about the injuries and I pray he recovers fully. I'm thankful he's still alive and that your family can have more years with him (God willing).

If Ro for the Delta virus is 2.3, we will all be exposed.
 
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Kronic

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Who told you that it was to remain in the deltoid? The rna remains in the deltoid. The spike proteins will travel everywhere. But yes I am glad that he has been vaxxed should the real beast come along, and a megadose of the same spike proteins with it.

If Ro for the Delta virus is 2.3, we will all be exposed.
what else could explain organ failure from a vaccine that is supposedly tricking your body into producing an auto immune response.

-no live virus-

don't forget auto immune disorders is on the list for things to tell your doctor.

this vaccine is crazy man. it's developed quite similar to software. there could be a bug.

we are in the beta test stages now woo!
 
Dustin07

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Depends on where you live (urban or rural). One thing is for certain: The Pfizer vaccine is better than getting actual covid, which is a strong possibility for both her and the baby. Yes, the covid spike proteins formed by the vaccine have some minute potential to cause injury, but the same spike proteins are present in 100s of times the potency in the event of an actual infection, on top of the infection itself.

A decision not to vax is very hard to justify with a disease this contagious. My aunt and uncle decided not to vax. My uncle died because of it. Suffocated in front of us while on 100% oxygen. He died half from Covid and half from anti-vax hysteria.

There's no reason for the paranoia over such a simple mechanism: the strip of rna that encodes the spike protein encased in a chemical shell - the rna is eliminated as soon as it is used, and the single batch of spike proteins that result are cleared in 2 days.
There is absolutely no way for you or anyone else to know that the vax is better for a pregnant woman than getting covid.

Have you had COVID? I have. I'd prefer my wife had that again than a vax. At this point we have two years of covid data and five months of vax data.

COVID is involuntary, the vax is voluntary. I'd rather take my chances facing the world's unknowns than signing up for voluntary risks.

Yup people have died from covid. As well as a million other things. Each of those deaths are tragic. Doesn't change my opinion. Last I checked we all die in the end.
 

jorelldye

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There is absolutely no way for you or anyone else to know that the vax is better for a pregnant woman than getting covid.

Have you had COVID? I have. I'd prefer my wife had that again than a vax. At this point we have two years of covid data and five months of vax data.

COVID is involuntary, the vax is voluntary. I'd rather take my chances facing the world's unknowns than signing up for voluntary risks.

Yup people have died from covid. As well as a million other things. Each of those deaths are tragic. Doesn't change my opinion. Last I checked we all die in the end.
I'd probably agree with you if I didn't understand the vaccine, which I do; or if I had a worldview that branded large swaths of the scientific community as liars, which I don't.

There's no model for how it would even be possible for the Pfizer vaccine to be worse than covid. Find a vector other than the spike proteins to justify the theory.

With the J&J vaccine you have the adenovirus to add another variable (which has its own spike proteins and causes your body to react to two perceived infections.

Ironically, people on the fence favor J&J because it's older technology, even though an adenovirus is obviously more dangerous than the chemical shell used with mRNA.
 

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what else could explain organ failure from a vaccine that is supposedly tricking your body into producing an auto immune response.

-no live virus-

don't forget auto immune disorders is on the list for things to tell your doctor.

this vaccine is crazy man. it's developed quite similar to software. there could be a bug.

we are in the beta test stages now woo!
I don't personally suspect RNA printed using CRISPR to be any more dangerous than RNA harvested from wild viruses. The purpose of employing mRNA is that you can create vaccines at an incredibly fast pace, given that you don't need to use wild viruses to harvest RNA or for transport. Just print the RNA in the lab and encase it in a chemical shell and repeat.

It's an anti-pandemic weapon. We'll be grateful for it when a pandemic comes along with the fatality rate of SARS 1.
 
poison

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Depends on where you live (urban or rural). One thing is for certain: The Pfizer vaccine is better than getting actual covid, which is a strong possibility for both her and the baby. Yes, the covid spike proteins formed by the vaccine have some minute potential to cause injury, but the same spike proteins are present in 100s of times the potency in the event of an actual infection, on top of the infection itself.

A decision not to vax is very hard to justify with a disease this contagious. My aunt and uncle decided not to vax. My uncle died because of it. Suffocated in front of us while on 100% oxygen. He died half from Covid and half from anti-vax hysteria.

There's no reason for the paranoia over such a simple mechanism: the strip of rna that encodes the spike protein encased in a chemical shell - the rna is eliminated as soon as it is used, and the single batch of spike proteins that result are cleared in 2 days.
Nope, last paragraph is wrong.


- The spike is not only localized, it's systemic.

- 'We hypothesize that the cellular immune responses triggered by T-cell activation, which would occur days after the vaccination, lead to direct killing of cells presenting spike protein, and an additional release of spike into the blood stream [9]'

- the vaccine contains peg https://www.science.org/news/2020/12/suspicions-grow-nanoparticles-pfizer-s-covid-19-vaccine-trigger-rare-allergic-reactions

- the vaccines adjuvants, and they have literally no idea where they go, or what they do. They do cross the blood/brain barrier, though, so that's fun.

Cliffs: your confidence is overstated.
 

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Nope, last paragraph is wrong.


- The spike is not only localized, it's systemic.

- 'We hypothesize that the cellular immune responses triggered by T-cell activation, which would occur days after the vaccination, lead to direct killing of cells presenting spike protein, and an additional release of spike into the blood stream [9]'

- the vaccine contains peg https://www.science.org/news/2020/12/suspicions-grow-nanoparticles-pfizer-s-covid-19-vaccine-trigger-rare-allergic-reactions

- the vaccines adjuvants, and they have literally no idea where they go, or what they do. They do cross the blood/brain barrier, though, so that's fun.

Cliffs: your confidence is overstated.
It's a real head scratcher when someone compares a disease that is killing Americans faster than World War 2 to a vaccine with rare but statistically nonzero allergic (or autoimmune) reactions to adjuvants, and then, with a fist of defiance raised against reason, declares a preference for the former.

Vaccine adjuvants are not biocidal free radicals that will cause brain or organ damage on their own, and those who are allergic are few. This is no different from the mmr debate, but obviously vaxxing all of our our children for measles has yielded a far better outcome than letting measles run its course. The data is in on that debate and it seems fit to extrapolate from an example like that when reasoning about this new vaccine.

See Kursgesagt's YouTube video on the mmr vaccine debate if you'd like a heap of research condensed into a palatable overview that a layman can digest. Of course we're facing a novel virus, but the moral calculus is pretty much the same.

Because the patients who suffer allergic reactions to the vaccine will be different from the patients who would potentially have died or have been injured by a covid infection, the moral dilemma is a trolley problem. Do you let the trolley run over 700,000 Americans? Or do you pull the lever and have it run over the ankles of a few thousand other Americans? No one wants to pull the lever in a trolley problem because they then assume responsibility for the outcome, whereas without intervening, they feel they are not at fault for the outcome. This is fallacious, because the very fact that the respondent is within reach of the lever as the trolley barrels forward presents them with moral responsibility for the outcome. The trolley won't stop, and each of us is at the lever, so we must optimize the result.
 
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Ricky10

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Well, if it comes down to it, I suppose I’ll just be taking weekly free tests at the pharmacy.

Or what’s the worst case? They fine me $14,000 annually? I have spent far more than that on my health. I would spend that to retain it.

Okay, take the money. Biden isn’t getting re-elected and fines like that will get overturned eventually. In the meantime, I could always look for a job with a smaller company if it made more financial sense longterm.

I mean it’s all absolute craziness and I don’t think people are going to stand for it, plain and simple. I will not be coerced or rushed into making lasting medical decisions against my will.

Right now all the evidence points to folks who have already had COVID and recovered stand to gain little but risk from taking the vaccine.
Apparently it’s up to a $14,000 fine by OSHA per violation for companies. Whatever that means...

I find it odd that there seems to be no mention of timelines. Also, the mandates are anticipated to affect roughly 100 million Americans. I’m guessing that a large percentage of those 100 million people are already vaccinated, thus missing the apparent goal of reaching the 80 million people who are vaccine eligible but have refused thus far. It’s kind of a piss in the wind approach and rather reckless. Which of course has proven to be status quo for this administration.

Who is responsible for paying for the weekly tests? Does it go through private insurance, the employer, or the government? The requirement of weekly tests upon continued vaccine refusal are certainly partially intended to break down the unvaccinated. At the same time, the huge downside to identifying asymptomatic employees is that the CDC then tests for potential outbreaks and those people will be pulled out of work at a time when there is a huge worker shortage to begin with.

It will be VERY interesting to see how things play out. But I think things are about to go from really bad to worse on many levels. Which of course is a also status quo for this administration.
 

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Apparently it’s up to a $14,000 fine by OSHA per violation for companies. Whatever that means...

I find it odd that there seems to be no mention of timelines. Also, the mandates are anticipated to affect roughly 100 million Americans. I’m guessing that a large percentage of those 100 million people are already vaccinated, thus missing the apparent goal of reaching the 80 million people who are vaccine eligible but have refused thus far. It’s kind of a piss in the wind approach and rather reckless. Which of course has proven to be status quo for this administration.

Who is responsible for paying for the weekly tests? Does it go through private insurance, the employer, or the government? The requirement of weekly tests upon continued vaccine refusal are certainly partially intended to break down the unvaccinated. At the same time, the huge downside to identifying asymptomatic employees is that the CDC then tests for potential outbreaks and those people will be pulled out of work at a time when there is a huge worker shortage to begin with.

It will be VERY interesting to see how things play out. But I think things are about to go from really bad to worse on many levels. Which of course is a also status quo for this administration.
Federal/state mandates violate body autonomy, and there is plenty of precedent in tangent legal topics for the courts to justify overturning them, ie abortion, which has been the subject of memes that argue this very point. I'm not sure how much of a slippery slope it will be if we let them usurp our rights in this way, although I'm not one to mill about in the side of the internet that is obsessed with apocalyptic religious prophecy regarding branding of the body. Pandemic logic, much like wartime logic, brings alot of compromise with respect to rights we take for granted. When in war, the feds have the right to conscript your children and drag them from your home. That's quite a leap from the mandates and lockdowns in this pandemic, which has proved to be more deadly than ww2 for Americans. The circumstances should somewhat quell our suspicion toward our political leaders. And we don't see opportunistic senators bringing constitution-defying legislation to the floor like they did in the wake of 9/11 (ie Patriot Act) - and that's what I'd look for before assuming malevolence.
 
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Kronic

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It's a real head scratcher when someone compares a disease that is killing Americans faster than World War 2 to a vaccine with rare but statistically nonzero allergic (or autoimmune) reactions to adjuvants, and then, with a fist of defiance raised against reason, declares a preference for the former.

Vaccine adjuvants are not biocidal free radicals that will cause brain or organ damage on their own, and those who are allergic are few. This is no different from the mmr debate, but obviously vaxxing all of our our children for measles has yielded a far better outcome than letting measles run its course. The data is in on that debate and it seems fit to extrapolate from an example like that when reasoning about this new vaccine.

See Kursgesagt's YouTube video on the mmr vaccine debate if you'd like a heap of research condensed into a palatable overview that a layman can digest. Of course we're facing a novel virus, but the moral calculus is pretty much the same.

Because the patients who suffer allergic reactions to the vaccine will be different from the patients who would potentially have died or have been injured by a covid infection, the moral dilemma is a trolley problem. Do you let the trolley run over 700,000 Americans? Or do you pull the lever and have it run over the ankles of a few thousand other Americans? No one wants to pull the lever in a trolley problem because they then assume responsibility for the outcome, whereas without intervening, they feel they are not at fault for the outcome. This is fallacious, because the very fact that the respondent is within reach of the lever as the trolley barrels forward presents them with moral responsibility for the outcome. The trolley won't stop, and each of us is at the lever, so we must optimize the result.
the problem is not only the side effects, but also does it work on the current mutations.

the percentage chance of being hospitalized or dying to covid are low even while unvaccinated. I still don't understand how an effective vaccine can take a 90% survival rate virus and not make that basically 100%. we are talking about still having a real chance of DYING to the thing you are "vaccinated" against. we have dead virus vaccines for deady **** like polio that are more effective and last longer
 
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the problem is not only the side effects, but also does it work on the current mutations.

the percentage chance of being hospitalized or dying to covid are low even while unvaccinated. I still don't understand how an effective vaccine can take a 90% survival rate virus and not make that basically 100%. we are talking about still having a real chance of DYING to the thing you are "vaccinated" against. we have dead virus vaccines for deady **** like polio that are more effective and last longer
I can’t remember the name of the doctor, but he predicted this wave of variants. He thought the vaccine technology was great, but he said it was too specific, and the possible exposure to the virus once vaccinated was so high that the vaccine itself would cause variants through the natural evolutionary response a virus would have.
 
rob112

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Federal/state mandates violate body autonomy, and there is plenty of precedent in tangent legal topics for the courts to justify overturning them, ie abortion, which has been the subject of memes that argue this very point. I'm not sure how much of a slippery slope it will be if we let them usurp our rights in this way, although I'm not one to mill about in the side of the internet that is obsessed with apocalyptic religious prophecy regarding branding of the body. Pandemic logic, much like wartime logic, brings alot of compromise with respect to rights we take for granted. When in war, the feds have the right to conscript your children and drag them from your home. That's quite a leap from the mandates and lockdowns in this pandemic, which has proved to be more deadly than ww2 for Americans. The circumstances should somewhat quell our suspicion toward our political leaders. And we don't see opportunistic senators bringing constitution-defying legislation to the floor like they did in the wake of 9/11 (ie Patriot Act) - and that's what I'd look for before assuming malevolence.
Conscription is slavery, and the government just participated in the largest wealth transfer of my life. Plus it’s likely the government funded the lab that created the virus in the first place. Shutting down small businesses while making everyone go to the same place during a restricted time frame never had any chance of doing anything positive. Your suspicion of the government should be at a 10.

That doesn’t mean you can’t like the vaccine though.
 
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Apparently it’s up to a $14,000 fine by OSHA per violation for companies. Whatever that means...

I find it odd that there seems to be no mention of timelines. Also, the mandates are anticipated to affect roughly 100 million Americans. I’m guessing that a large percentage of those 100 million people are already vaccinated, thus missing the apparent goal of reaching the 80 million people who are vaccine eligible but have refused thus far. It’s kind of a piss in the wind approach and rather reckless. Which of course has proven to be status quo for this administration.

Who is responsible for paying for the weekly tests? Does it go through private insurance, the employer, or the government? The requirement of weekly tests upon continued vaccine refusal are certainly partially intended to break down the unvaccinated. At the same time, the huge downside to identifying asymptomatic employees is that the CDC then tests for potential outbreaks and those people will be pulled out of work at a time when there is a huge worker shortage to begin with.

It will be VERY interesting to see how things play out. But I think things are about to go from really bad to worse on many levels. Which of course is a also status quo for this administration.
Definitely agree with all points here. It just doesn’t seem well thought out at all; it smacks of knee-jerk deflection for approval as previously mentioned.

Who is going to be paying for the tests? Who is going to be investigating & enforcing this with every non-small business in America? How easy will it be to cheat the test requirements for businesses that don’t actually care about uncovering asymptomatic carriers & just want to avoid fines?

Federal/state mandates violate body autonomy, and there is plenty of precedent in tangent legal topics for the courts to justify overturning them, ie abortion, which has been the subject of memes that argue this very point. I'm not sure how much of a slippery slope it will be if we let them usurp our rights in this way, although I'm not one to mill about in the side of the internet that is obsessed with apocalyptic religious prophecy regarding branding of the body. Pandemic logic, much like wartime logic, brings alot of compromise with respect to rights we take for granted. When in war, the feds have the right to conscript your children and drag them from your home. That's quite a leap from the mandates and lockdowns in this pandemic, which has proved to be more deadly than ww2 for Americans. The circumstances should somewhat quell our suspicion toward our political leaders. And we don't see opportunistic senators bringing constitution-defying legislation to the floor like they did in the wake of 9/11 (ie Patriot Act) - and that's what I'd look for before assuming malevolence.
Yeah I just don’t see it panning out; I think it will be challenged by far too many folks.

I appreciate your contributions btw, as well as @poison’s. I am glad to absorb as many studies and even seemingly educated opinions/arguments as I can to better inform my own decisions. I think the majority of folks are too fast to latch onto any one source of information to give them their views, because that’s easier than trying to formulate their own.

Do you mind sharing your opinions on your concerns, or lack thereof, for unforeseen complications or issues arising years down the line from receiving this vaccine? I realize for someone who won’t be alive in 20-30 years likely or high-risk populations this is obviously moot (don’t worry about tomorrow when you need to focus on just surviving today), but in the context of someone healthy and younger who could have 30-50 years ahead of them & who has already recovered completely from COVID prior.
 
Kronic

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Definitely agree with all points here. It just doesn’t seem well thought out at all; it smacks of knee-jerk deflection for approval as previously mentioned.

Who is going to be paying for the tests? Who is going to be investigating & enforcing this with every non-small business in America? How easy will it be to cheat the test requirements for businesses that don’t actually care about uncovering asymptomatic carriers & just want to avoid fines?



Yeah I just don’t see it panning out; I think it will be challenged by far too many folks.

I appreciate your contributions btw, as well as @poison’s. I am glad to absorb as many studies and even seemingly educated opinions/arguments as I can to better inform my own decisions. I think the majority of folks are too fast to latch onto any one source of information to give them their views, because that’s easier than trying to formulate their own.

Do you mind sharing your opinions on your concerns, or lack thereof, for unforeseen complications or issues arising years down the line from receiving this vaccine? I realize for someone who won’t be alive in 20-30 years likely or high-risk populations this is obviously moot (don’t worry about tomorrow when you need to focus on just surviving today), but in the context of someone healthy and younger who could have 30-50 years ahead of them & who has already recovered completely from COVID prior.
my main long term concern is the effects on pregnancy. do I need to find an un vaccinated GF now?
 
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I just have a general question for people as I am just interested to hear responses. Why was it not really a big deal when healthcare workers in most states were/are required to get vaccinated without the option of weekly testing? I mean, of course there were a few protests here and there but it really didn’t amount to anything.

Now that many more people will likely be facing a similar situation in their life- yet with the options of weekly testing, it’s a big friggin deal. I’m not saying it isn’t a big deal, but why do we think other workers deserve to have more rights or freedoms than medical personnel?
 
Kronic

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I just have a general question for people as I am just interested to hear responses. Why was it not really a big deal when healthcare workers in most states were/are required to get vaccinated without the option of weekly testing? I mean, of course there were a few protests here and there but it really didn’t amount to anything.

Now that many more people will likely be facing a similar situation in their life- yet with the options of weekly testing, it’s a big friggin deal. I’m not saying it isn’t a big deal, but why do we think other workers deserve to have more rights or freedoms than medical personnel?
it was and is a big deal. the media just spinned it as a healthcare worker shortage and people quitting cuz "they couldn't take it anymore"

a lot of them just quit instead of getting the vaccine.

 
rob112

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I just have a general question for people as I am just interested to hear responses. Why was it not really a big deal when healthcare workers in most states were/are required to get vaccinated without the option of weekly testing? I mean, of course there were a few protests here and there but it really didn’t amount to anything.

Now that many more people will likely be facing a similar situation in their life- yet with the options of weekly testing, it’s a big friggin deal. I’m not saying it isn’t a big deal, but why do we think other workers deserve to have more rights or freedoms than medical personnel?
I believe it’s hard to mobilize people who are individual liberty types. We just want to be left alone. Meanwhile leftists are collectivists and will get together at the drop of a hat and even get violent.

Obviously generalizing for conversation sake. Something I’ve been thinking about lately.
 
Renew1

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I just have a general question for people as I am just interested to hear responses. Why was it not really a big deal when healthcare workers in most states were/are required to get vaccinated without the option of weekly testing? I mean, of course there were a few protests here and there but it really didn’t amount to anything.

Now that many more people will likely be facing a similar situation in their life- yet with the options of weekly testing, it’s a big friggin deal. I’m not saying it isn’t a big deal, but why do we think other workers deserve to have more rights or freedoms than medical personnel?
I can totally understand how someone being in that group could form that wrong view (of others).
But you're wrong (taken as a whole).

I was upset that Anyone was required to take a vaccine that they really didn't want to receive.
But honestly ... A lot of healthcare workers kinda publicly said .... Hey, we're healthcare workers, we're used to this kind of thing, we're not surprised by it.
(I actually thought you were one of those people).

As far as the recent unlawful action ..... It also upsets me (even though I don't fall into that group) a Lot.
More so because of the scope of it (everyone couldn't quit, and go to work in a place that doesn't fall under the requirement, because there aren't that many places/jobs).

... And let's not forget that the Commander in Chief Publicly stated that he Would Not Do This.

He's a LIAR.
 
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poison

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It's a real head scratcher when someone compares a disease that is killing Americans faster than World War 2 to a vaccine with rare but statistically nonzero allergic (or autoimmune) reactions to adjuvants, and then, with a fist of defiance raised against reason, declares a preference for the former.
So much wrong with this:

- we know pcr testing at 40 cycles is bullshit intended to inflate numbers.

- we know many non-covid hospital admissions and deaths were not from covid, but with covid.

- you know what else kills at a faster rate than www2? Smoking, cancer, obesity, car accidents, etc.

- we don't know what effects nano-particle adjuvants have on anything, long term. Peg is nasty stuff.

- we don't know how rare side effects are, because not only are VAERS reports being ignored, they're being actively supressed by the media and investigative journalists.

Vaccine adjuvants are not biocidal free radicals that will cause brain or organ damage on their own, and those who are allergic are few. This is no different from the mmr debate, but obviously vaxxing all of our our children for measles has yielded a far better outcome than letting measles run its course. The data is in on that debate and it seems fit to extrapolate from an example like that when reasoning about this new vaccine.

See Kursgesagt's YouTube video on the mmr vaccine debate if you'd like a heap of research condensed into a palatable overview that a layman can digest. Of course we're facing a novel virus, but the moral calculus is pretty much the same.

Because the patients who suffer allergic reactions to the vaccine will be different from the patients who would potentially have died or have been injured by a covid infection, the moral dilemma is a trolley problem. Do you let the trolley run over 700,000 Americans? Or do you pull the lever and have it run over the ankles of a few thousand other Americans? No one wants to pull the lever in a trolley problem because they then assume responsibility for the outcome, whereas without intervening, they feel they are not at fault for the outcome. This is fallacious, because the very fact that the respondent is within reach of the lever as the trolley barrels forward presents them with moral responsibility for the outcome. The trolley won't stop, and each of us is at the lever, so we must optimize the result.
No, it's not a trolly problem. Risk of covid is not spread evenly amongst the population, and acting like everyone needs to vax and assume vax risks because their risk from covid is the same across all groups is unscientific bullshit.

At risk people should vax. Those not at risk probably shouldnt assume the risk from the vax, when they have less risk from covid. Nuance is key.
 
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I just have a general question for people as I am just interested to hear responses. Why was it not really a big deal when healthcare workers in most states were/are required to get vaccinated without the option of weekly testing? I mean, of course there were a few protests here and there but it really didn’t amount to anything.

Now that many more people will likely be facing a similar situation in their life- yet with the options of weekly testing, it’s a big friggin deal. I’m not saying it isn’t a big deal, but why do we think other workers deserve to have more rights or freedoms than medical personnel?
To say it didn’t upset me would be a lie; it very much did. But I think it’s one of those things where if it doesn’t affect people personally, they don’t know what they can do. I mean I don’t even know what I would have done in your shoes for sure?

So between it being more normal for that industry, some folks glad for the opportunity to try to get some protection, and people generally not knowing what they can do, you didn’t see much organized resistance.
 
Ricky10

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I can totally understand how someone being in that group could form that wrong view (of others).
But you're wrong (taken as a whole).

I was upset that Anyone was required to take a vaccine that they really didn't want to receive.
But honestly ... A lot of healthcare workers kinda publicly said .... Hey, we're healthcare workers, we're used to this kind of thing, we're not surprised by it.
(I actually thought you were one of those people).

As far as the recent unlawful action ..... It also upsets me (even though I don't fall into that group) a Lot.
More so because of the scope of it (everyone couldn't quit, and go to work in a place that doesn't fall under the requirement, because there aren't that many places/jobs).

... And let's not forget that the Commander in Chief Publicly stated that he Would Not Do This.

He's a LIAR.
I probably was one of this people, and it’s very true that we have increasingly been at the mercy of our employers. While it didn’t affect me personally, I definitely empathized with a few of my coworkers that did not want a vax. It was just a few years ago that we had the option of getting the influenza vaccine. If we opted out, we just had to wear a surgical mask within 6ft of any patient. Since we have all been having to wear masks and more for quite some time now, they knew many more people would opt out. So that became mandated.…which is more than a little f*cked up in itself.

Also, it has been said that this year‘s influenza vaccine will be much more of a piss in the wind than usual. Given that last year the flu was relatively nonexistent, researchers had very little data to go by in predicting what will be circulating this season. Of course they still say it’s VERY important to get it :ROFLMAO:

Yes, he is indeed a liar!
To say it didn’t upset me would be a lie; it very much did. But I think it’s one of those things where if it doesn’t affect people personally, they don’t know what they can do. I mean I don’t even know what I would have done in your shoes for sure?

So between it being more normal for that industry, some folks glad for the opportunity to try to get some protection, and people generally not knowing what they can do, you didn’t see much organized resistance.
I really didn’t have much hesitation when the vaccine rolled out for us. It just wasn’t something that really bothered me. The China virus was much more concerning for me than a new vaccine. All vaccines are new at some point as well as new technology...haha! That’s just me though, and it definitely did offer some piece of mind, and at the time, we thought it was the beginning of life returning to normal, and it was. Then the Delta variant changed the game 😡
 
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Apparently it’s up to a $14,000 fine by OSHA per violation for companies. Whatever that means...

I find it odd that there seems to be no mention of timelines. Also, the mandates are anticipated to affect roughly 100 million Americans. I’m guessing that a large percentage of those 100 million people are already vaccinated, thus missing the apparent goal of reaching the 80 million people who are vaccine eligible but have refused thus far. It’s kind of a piss in the wind approach and rather reckless. Which of course has proven to be status quo for this administration.

Who is responsible for paying for the weekly tests? Does it go through private insurance, the employer, or the government? The requirement of weekly tests upon continued vaccine refusal are certainly partially intended to break down the unvaccinated. At the same time, the huge downside to identifying asymptomatic employees is that the CDC then tests for potential outbreaks and those people will be pulled out of work at a time when there is a huge worker shortage to begin with.

It will be VERY interesting to see how things play out. But I think things are about to go from really bad to worse on many levels. Which of course is a also status quo for this administration.
it was obvious to me that the timing of biden coming out with this new mandate was clearly intended to deflect from the disaster the withdrawal from afghanistan became.

a lot of vets like me will never forget those fallen marines--TRUE HERO'S.
 
poison

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Because it's 9/11, I'd like to make the connect from 9.11.01 to today. That day is one that will live with a very few select other days, in infamy. What has been done in the name of 9/11 is unthinkable.

Covid is not a day, it's an event over many days, but it too will live in infamy, along with 9/11 and other horrific days. What is being done in the name of safety and security is unthinkable, just like actions after 9/11. This is just another step away from freedom and toward subjugation, and we are not inky allowing it to happen, many are cheering it.

RIP to the 3000 fallen Americans, thousands of dead troops, millions of dead iraqis and afghanis, and our freedom.
 
rob112

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Because it's 9/11, I'd like to make the connect from 9.11.01 to today. That day is one that will live with a very few select other days, in infamy. What has been done in the name of 9/11 is unthinkable.

Covid is not a day, it's an event over many days, but it too will live in infamy, along with 9/11 and other horrific days. What is being done in the name of safety and security is unthinkable, just like actions after 9/11. This is just another step away from freedom and toward subjugation, and we are not inky allowing it to happen, many are cheering it.

RIP to the 3000 fallen Americans, thousands of dead troops, millions of dead iraqis and afghanis, and our freedom.
“And this is how democracy dies…to thunderous applause”
 
thebigt

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Because it's 9/11, I'd like to make the connect from 9.11.01 to today. That day is one that will live with a very few select other days, in infamy. What has been done in the name of 9/11 is unthinkable.

Covid is not a day, it's an event over many days, but it too will live in infamy, along with 9/11 and other horrific days. What is being done in the name of safety and security is unthinkable, just like actions after 9/11. This is just another step away from freedom and toward subjugation, and we are not inky allowing it to happen, many are cheering it.

RIP to the 3000 fallen Americans, thousands of dead troops, millions of dead iraqis and afghanis, and our freedom.
i have added august 27, 2021 to list of dates to remember...
 
THOR 70

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I just have a general question for people as I am just interested to hear responses. Why was it not really a big deal when healthcare workers in most states were/are required to get vaccinated without the option of weekly testing? I mean, of course there were a few protests here and there but it really didn’t amount to anything.

Now that many more people will likely be facing a similar situation in their life- yet with the options of weekly testing, it’s a big friggin deal. I’m not saying it isn’t a big deal, but why do we think other workers deserve to have more rights or freedoms than medical personnel?
I honestly think the lack of outcry is to blame on the medical sector itself. I personally think one of the biggest think tank/echo chambers is medicine. Waaaaay too much ego and nobody wants to go against the flow cause any view that is against the narrative is “quackery naturopathic bullshit” or something along those lines. So majority just fall in line.

I just saw an interview where the very pro vaccine hosts were saying that the AMA survey shows 96% of doctors are vaccinated, therefore the general population should follow suit cause doctors are able to read data better than the average layperson. I simply think it’s because they have the most to lose ($350k minimum salary), have massive loans, and don’t want to go against their peers.

Lastly, most healthcare workers are tired and have been conditioned by mandatory flu shots.

My perspective is from my career that I somewhat regularly interact with physicians and my sister is an ICU nurse on a covid unit.

I actually don’t blame doctors for this. They are spread too thin and aren’t given the time or space to exercise their genius. As I’m sure you know, they are paid on production and they just crank through patients to satisfy the pressure they are under. Whether it’s RVU’s for a system, or trying to keep the lights on in their dwindling private practice. Medicine is failing and it’s because it’s too focused on $$$ vs the well being of our fellow man. Staff and patients both suffer. I’ll get off my soapbox, but this is related to my career so I sort of get fired up.
 
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THOR 70

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So much wrong with this:

- we know pcr testing at 40 cycles is bullshit intended to inflate numbers.

- we know many non-covid hospital admissions and deaths were not from covid, but with covid.

- you know what else kills at a faster rate than www2? Smoking, cancer, obesity, car accidents, etc.

- we don't know what effects nano-particle adjuvants have on anything, long term. Peg is nasty stuff.

- we don't know how rare side effects are, because not only are VAERS reports being ignored, they're being actively supressed by the media and investigative journalists.



No, it's not a trolly problem. Risk of covid is not spread evenly amongst the population, and acting like everyone needs to vax and assume vax risks because their risk from covid is the same across all groups is unscientific bullshit.

At risk people should vax. Those not at risk probably shouldnt assume the risk from the vax, when they have less risk from covid. Nuance is key.
Mic fukin drop!!! Well said
 
thebigt

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I honestly think the lack of outcry is to blame on the medical sector itself. I personally think one of the biggest think tank/echo chambers is medicine. Waaaaay too much ego and nobody wants to go against the flow cause any view that is against the narrative is “quackery naturopathic bullshit” or something along those lines. So majority just fall in line.

I just saw an interview where the very pro vaccine hosts were saying that the AMA survey shows 96% of doctors are vaccinated, therefore the general population should follow suit cause doctors are able to read data better than the average layperson. I simply think it’s because they have the most to lose ($350k minimum salary), have massive loans, and don’t want to go against their peers.

Lastly, most healthcare workers are tired and have been conditioned by mandatory flu shots.

My perspective is from my career that I somewhat regularly interact with physicians and my sister is an ICU nurse on a covid unit.

I actually don’t blame doctors for this. They are spread too thin and aren’t given the time or space to exercise their genius. As I’m sure you know, they are paid on production and they just crank through patients to satisfy the pressure they are under. Whether it’s RVU’s for a system, or trying to keep the lights on in their dwindling private practice. Medicine is failing and it’s because it’s too focused on $$$ vs the well being of our fellow man. Staff and patients both suffer. I’ll get off my soapbox, but this is related to my career so I sort of get fired up.
i think the corporate insurance industry has done to medicine what the corporate music industry has done to music.
 
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Depends on where you live (urban or rural). One thing is for certain: The Pfizer vaccine is better than getting actual covid, which is a strong possibility for both her and the baby. Yes, the covid spike proteins formed by the vaccine have some minute potential to cause injury, but the same spike proteins are present in 100s of times the potency in the event of an actual infection, on top of the infection itself.

A decision not to vax is very hard to justify with a disease this contagious. My aunt and uncle decided not to vax. My uncle died because of it. Suffocated in front of us while on 100% oxygen. He died half from Covid and half from anti-vax hysteria.

There's no reason for the paranoia over such a simple mechanism: the strip of rna that encodes the spike protein encased in a chemical shell - the rna is eliminated as soon as it is used, and the single batch of spike proteins that result are cleared in 2 days.
You missed the point. The only harm vector with the Pfizer vaccine is the spike proteins, which is orders of magnitude more severe in the event of covid. So suffice it to say that someone who exhibits adverse effects after getting the shot would necessarily react far worse to actual covid.

There is 1 confirmed death from the Pfizer shot. It's safer than Tylenol. People who quote death stats don't realize that those numbers are baseline for the time window and population sample being analyzed.
I'd probably agree with you if I didn't understand the vaccine, which I do; or if I had a worldview that branded large swaths of the scientific community as liars, which I don't.

There's no model for how it would even be possible for the Pfizer vaccine to be worse than covid. Find a vector other than the spike proteins to justify the theory.

With the J&J vaccine you have the adenovirus to add another variable (which has its own spike proteins and causes your body to react to two perceived infections.

Ironically, people on the fence favor J&J because it's older technology, even though an adenovirus is obviously more dangerous than the chemical shell used with mRNA.
I am one of the guys on here who has "tried" to see the nuance and I am not saying you are 100% wrong. I agree that to a large extent, the bottom line is that I really doubt the vaccine is going to end up resulting in 600,000+ people dead in the next 18 months.

I agree that the vaccine is most likely considerably safer than contracting covid, and the chance of getting covid for almost everyone right now, is 100%. It's just a matter of time.

Having said that, it's a complete guess and I have no data to support that view and it is still reasonable to question the vax.

For one thing, the vax seems, to me, to be a lot less effective than projected at protecting against getting the virus, we really don't have enough data to reasonably know if it prevents deaths or to what rate precisely, and we don't have data to support the long term safety of the vaccine, but mRNA in particular.

You have a loose grasp of the vaccine, more so than a lot of people, but not complete. You ignore the dangers of mRNA and then gloss over exactly what the molecule it is encased in is. Let me ask you this, can you tell me exactly how you would cause an organism to experience a cytokine storm in a lab if you wanted to study it? I know of what seems to be a well-known way to reliably induce a cytokine storm - lipopolysaccharides. Not to mention mRNA itself has been shown to increase cytokines. A major cytokine in question is IL-6 and this combo WILL increase IL-6 without a doubt (which actually should make it more effective generally - a vax that doesn't do this would be pretty worthless).

Having said that, people who have autoimmune diseases, diabetes, and other issues with appropriately managing cytokines - are at risk and I believe this is being glossed over. It is not specific to the covid vax - it is any vax, but you have to also consider the questionable deployment of a platform that was 10-20 years in the making still. NO ONE thought mRNA vaccines were right around the corner here until Covid hit. They have some advantages but we lack the science to even know what to expect. When is the last time you tried ANYTHING new in your life and it went exactly as planned? Have you ever done your own housework or car work? Nothing new ever rolls out as planned and most of the time you don't even know what you should have expected until you get the experience.

Ironically, the people most at risk of dying from the vax are most at risk of dying from Covid...so it's not like I'm saying "don't vaccinate!" - but everyone acting like someone who has hesitation is stupid or part of the problem is really just being a bully with no intellectual ground to stand on. Meanwhile there are cases of people having actual issues with the vaccine in pubmed with the mainstream media not even reporting on it.

So, ultimately there is "only harm vector" is really the only one you know of, I just provided a second, and I'm not under the impression I know them all. Is that vector as bad as Covid? Unlikely...although it only takes one vector to cause serious, long-term consequences.

And maybe you are right that the adenovirus is more dangerous than lipopolysaccharides and mRNA - there is certainly the potential. But at least it's a known factor/danger.

I mean, the mere fact we now need booster shots is an admission that the mRNA platform failed - so let's inject more LPS and cause more cytokine increases. That's honestly very questionable IMO as well. If the mRNA platform worked as well as implied, the spike proteins would be inocculated against and we would be seeing immunity against all variants from it.

It is also foolish hubris to put so much unquestioned faith in a vaccine that was developed in 9 months. How many vaccines have we come up with in the last 100 years? We had 50+ attempts in the works, and we got the first 3 out and those just happened to be the best? We cannot do any better? Not saying it wasn't an unheard of success to get there - but it's still reasonable to expect there should be improvements and adjustments that we missed.

You made a risk assessment, I mostly agree with it in all actuality, I'm just trying to point out the nuance and avoid the extremes on both ends. Your decision to get or not get the vaccine is a complicated risk assessment and there is no clear cut answer IMO. I fall on the side of it being a good decision to get vaccinated, but I understand the hesitation of many.

Also, not trying to single you out. Just latched on because you kind of encapsulated some of the ideas in my mind that I think require more nuance and it may be more to do with my experience with others than what you are actually trying to say.
 
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SARS-CoV-2 mRNA Vaccination-Associated Myocarditis in Children Ages 12-17: A Stratified National Database Analysis

Results A total of 257 CAEs were identified. Rates per million following dose 2 among males were 162.2 (ages 12-15) and 94.0 (ages 16-17); among females, rates were 13.0 and 13.4 per million, respectively. For boys 12-15 without medical comorbidities receiving their second mRNA vaccination dose, the rate of CAE is 3.7 to 6.1 times higher than their 120-day COVID-19 hospitalization risk as of August 21, 2021 (7-day hospitalizations 1.5/100k population) and 2.6-4.3-fold higher at times of high weekly hospitalization risk (7-day hospitalizations 2.1/100k), such as during January 2021. For boys 16-17 without medical comorbidities, the rate of CAE is currently 2.1 to 3.5 times higher than their 120-day COVID-19 hospitalization risk, and 1.5 to 2.5 times higher at times of high weekly COVID-19 hospitalization.
Oh.
 
GreenMachineX

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Oh.
If I'm reading this right, the risk of myocarditis is higher than being hospitalized due to covid?
 
GreenMachineX

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I am one of the guys on here who has "tried" to see the nuance and I am not saying you are 100% wrong. I agree that to a large extent, the bottom line is that I really doubt the vaccine is going to end up resulting in 600,000+ people dead in the next 18 months.

I agree that the vaccine is most likely considerably safer than contracting covid, and the chance of getting covid for almost everyone right now, is 100%. It's just a matter of time.

Having said that, it's a complete guess and I have no data to support that view and it is still reasonable to question the vax.

For one thing, the vax seems, to me, to be a lot less effective than projected at protecting against getting the virus, we really don't have enough data to reasonably know if it prevents deaths or to what rate precisely, and we don't have data to support the long term safety of the vaccine, but mRNA in particular.

You have a loose grasp of the vaccine, more so than a lot of people, but not complete. You ignore the dangers of mRNA and then gloss over exactly what the molecule it is encased in is. Let me ask you this, can you tell me exactly how you would cause an organism to experience a cytokine storm in a lab if you wanted to study it? I know of what seems to be a well-known way to reliably induce a cytokine storm - lipopolysaccharides. Not to mention mRNA itself has been shown to increase cytokines. A major cytokine in question is IL-6 and this combo WILL increase IL-6 without a doubt (which actually should make it more effective generally - a vax that doesn't do this would be pretty worthless).

Having said that, people who have autoimmune diseases, diabetes, and other issues with appropriately managing cytokines - are at risk and I believe this is being glossed over. It is not specific to the covid vax - it is any vax, but you have to also consider the questionable deployment of a platform that was 10-20 years in the making still. NO ONE thought mRNA vaccines were right around the corner here until Covid hit. They have some advantages but we lack the science to even know what to expect. When is the last time you tried ANYTHING new in your life and it went exactly as planned? Have you ever done your own housework or car work? Nothing new ever rolls out as planned and most of the time you don't even know what you should have expected until you get the experience.

Ironically, the people most at risk of dying from the vax are most at risk of dying from Covid...so it's not like I'm saying "don't vaccinate!" - but everyone acting like someone who has hesitation is stupid or part of the problem is really just being a bully with no intellectual ground to stand on. Meanwhile there are cases of people having actual issues with the vaccine in pubmed with the mainstream media not even reporting on it.

So, ultimately there is "only harm vector" is really the only one you know of, I just provided a second, and I'm not under the impression I know them all. Is that vector as bad as Covid? Unlikely...although it only takes one vector to cause serious, long-term consequences.

And maybe you are right that the adenovirus is more dangerous than lipopolysaccharides and mRNA - there is certainly the potential. But at least it's a known factor/danger.

I mean, the mere fact we now need booster shots is an admission that the mRNA platform failed - so let's inject more LPS and cause more cytokine increases. That's honestly very questionable IMO as well. If the mRNA platform worked as well as implied, the spike proteins would be inocculated against and we would be seeing immunity against all variants from it.

It is also foolish hubris to put so much unquestioned faith in a vaccine that was developed in 9 months. How many vaccines have we come up with in the last 100 years? We had 50+ attempts in the works, and we got the first 3 out and those just happened to be the best? We cannot do any better? Not saying it wasn't an unheard of success to get there - but it's still reasonable to expect there should be improvements and adjustments that we missed.

You made a risk assessment, I mostly agree with it in all actuality, I'm just trying to point out the nuance and avoid the extremes on both ends. Your decision to get or not get the vaccine is a complicated risk assessment and there is no clear cut answer IMO. I fall on the side of it being a good decision to get vaccinated, but I understand the hesitation of many.

Also, not trying to single you out. Just latched on because you kind of encapsulated some of the ideas in my mind that I think require more nuance and it may be more to do with my experience with others than what you are actually trying to say.
Love this response. Particularly that our first 3 attempts at the vaccine are the best and no more needed. I'll echo myself again; I am not anti-vaxx, but this one (or 3) ain't right for me!
 
Renew1

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People assume that we are all for "us" or "them".
... And that's just not true.
I'm for all people. I want the best for everyone. ... And I definitely don't know all of the answers. But none of us do.
That's why I think it is wrong to try and force others to take a possibly harmful vaccine, when we really have very little facts, much less a strong grasp on the whole picture.

How sad would I feel if I pressured someone to take a vaccine, and they died as a result of it.

Also... How sad would I be if I pressured someone Not to take a vaccine, and they died as a result.

The answer is .... Equally Sad.
 
Hyde

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People assume that we are all for "us" or "them".
... And that's just not true.
I'm for all people. I want the best for everyone. ... And I definitely don't know all of the answers. But none of us do.
That's why I think it is wrong to try and force others to take a possibly harmful vaccine, when we really have very little facts, much less a strong grasp on the whole picture.

How sad would I feel if I pressured someone to take a vaccine, and they died as a result of it.

Also... How sad would I be if I pressured someone Not to take a vaccine, and they died as a result.

The answer is .... Equally Sad.
Well said
 
puccah8808

puccah8808

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People assume that we are all for "us" or "them".
... And that's just not true.
I'm for all people. I want the best for everyone. ... And I definitely don't know all of the answers. But none of us do.
That's why I think it is wrong to try and force others to take a possibly harmful vaccine, when we really have very little facts, much less a strong grasp on the whole picture.

How sad would I feel if I pressured someone to take a vaccine, and they died as a result of it.

Also... How sad would I be if I pressured someone Not to take a vaccine, and they died as a result.

The answer is .... Equally Sad.
My boss forced her husband to get the vaccine or they were going to get a divorce. 🤷🏻‍♀️

IMG_3780.JPG
 
GreenMachineX

GreenMachineX

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People assume that we are all for "us" or "them".
... And that's just not true.
I'm for all people. I want the best for everyone. ... And I definitely don't know all of the answers. But none of us do.
That's why I think it is wrong to try and force others to take a possibly harmful vaccine, when we really have very little facts, much less a strong grasp on the whole picture.

How sad would I feel if I pressured someone to take a vaccine, and they died as a result of it.

Also... How sad would I be if I pressured someone Not to take a vaccine, and they died as a result.

The answer is .... Equally Sad.
Right. It should be everyone's individual choice.
 

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