why do people love komodo katana so much?
- Thread starter redman24
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Hockeyaus33
Active member
Agreed. I was also not impressed with the profile..
redman24
Banned
why, for cumulative benefits of amentoflavone? i use 120mg amento preworkout, 2 grams cop, several grams of carnitines, maybe some agmatine, if i used citrulline i would use 4 grams or 8 grams of the malate form, as for stims, i do not like cholinergic Stimulation very much.
i think a stimulant Profile should consider dopamine, norepinephrine, Serotonin and also Endorphins equally. that's why i also prefer dlpa over tyrosine.
for me there is simply no interest in the product as i can make my own according to the dosages and effects that i want.
i think a stimulant Profile should consider dopamine, norepinephrine, Serotonin and also Endorphins equally. that's why i also prefer dlpa over tyrosine.
for me there is simply no interest in the product as i can make my own according to the dosages and effects that i want.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Same here. Choline is making itself into several products recently, which otherwise would probably be my favorite if not for the choline. I've not tried DLPA preworkout though, only tyrosine.
bdcc
Legend
The thing with pre workouts is making a product that covers all bases yet doesn't cost more than the consumer wishes to pay.
For example, if you look at pre workouts you usually find one of two products;
- Stimulant based pre workout
- Non stimulant
The majority of stimulant based pre workouts are almost entirely free of ergogenic ingredients. They are stimulants thrown in a tub and nothing else.
On the other hand you have non stimulant products which can afford higher doses of other ergogens because the cost isn't split.
For me, Katana is one of very few pre workouts that bridge the gap. If you look at other non stimulants on the market you will find that 30 servings worth of 2g L-Citrulline, 1g AgmaPure and 2g Hydra-Vask is very strong on it's own, once you factor in the additional cost of ingredients like amentoflavone, Cognizin and tyrosine it easily surpasses the huge majority of other products on the market.
Honestly, the cost of formulating this will be very, very high.
There are very few products I would purchase with my own money, this would be one of the few pre workouts from other companies I would buy.
For example, if you look at pre workouts you usually find one of two products;
- Stimulant based pre workout
- Non stimulant
The majority of stimulant based pre workouts are almost entirely free of ergogenic ingredients. They are stimulants thrown in a tub and nothing else.
On the other hand you have non stimulant products which can afford higher doses of other ergogens because the cost isn't split.
For me, Katana is one of very few pre workouts that bridge the gap. If you look at other non stimulants on the market you will find that 30 servings worth of 2g L-Citrulline, 1g AgmaPure and 2g Hydra-Vask is very strong on it's own, once you factor in the additional cost of ingredients like amentoflavone, Cognizin and tyrosine it easily surpasses the huge majority of other products on the market.
Honestly, the cost of formulating this will be very, very high.
There are very few products I would purchase with my own money, this would be one of the few pre workouts from other companies I would buy.
Quads_of_Stee
Well-known member
Katana uses all licensed ingredients which cost more than the nonbrand ones
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
No offense but you should probably try it before you start a thread bashing it....
Geoforce
Well-known member
Pretty much this.
Amentoflavone I don't really think a whole lot of as an ingredient so it being "under-dosed" doesn't really matter to me. Also simply because a different product has more of something in it than a product doesn't mean something is under-dosed. I wouldn't call 2g of citrulline under-dosed either. That's in the ball park of many pre-workouts out there. Again someone should hesitate to call something under-dosed simply because you can find more of it somewhere else. It's crazily cheap so if someone wanted to add more it would not be difficult or costly. You throw in all the licensed products and the idea that it is some type of rip-off is laughable.
I've ran multiple tubs of Katana, it is one of my favorite pre's out there. I haven't seen many people who have actually used the product say bad things about it so I would suggest giving it a go before dismissing it. Focus on it is incredible.
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
This is a good response, its a bit different calling out a product that uses bunk ingredients like AAKG or whatever. I have really enjoyed Katana and have always had great workouts on it. You need to consider the profile as a whole rather than the doses of individual ingredients. Because some not being dosed clinically, they are all for the most part proven effective ingredients (most part).
I however do prefer Conqu3r over Katana personally both due to profile but more so anecdotal experience on how the profile as a whole effects my performance. But both are still good.
Geoforce
Well-known member
I have never ran Conqu3r but it looks solid. It's definitely on my list to try, I've got a ton of pre-workouts to get through first. Looks like end of summer I can give it a whirl
redman24
Banned
Olympus labs conqu3r demigod costs a lot more than katana to make. the amount of amentoflavone is 5 times higher. then there is 2 grams cop, 1 gram agmatine, 6 grams citrulline malate, 1 gram alcar, tyrosine, alpha-gpc, huperzine and glycerol.
2 grams of citrulline is not an effective dosage and 20mg of amentoflavone isn't either.
i will not promote the product i have designed here now, as it is not sold in the us anyways but it sold several hundred Units in a few days without Marketing, just because People know me in europe and i used the most expensive high Quality ingredients. the cost of the raws is almosst the retail price of katana.
and it is 30 servings which are really true servings, as nobody will ever Need more stim than that. i could see myself trying something like katana at double the dose with some dlpa but no tyrosine, additional amentoflavone and chocamine for some serotonergic effect. yes, it does have that, despite the amounts of compounds in it being relatively low in dosage, but on a whole it is a great mood Elevator and together with dlpa makes you feel light, euphoric and pain free. dlpa is superior to tyrosine as it inhibits the Degradation of enkephalins, which leads to improved mood, Motivation and pain relief.
and to People who say i should try it. i do not Need to try it. i know how a product will feel based on dosage. that's why i don't Need to try a formulation i make before knowing how it will work. before i actually designed a range of products for a Company i just mixed a bunch of stuff amounting to 19 grams actives together and sent samples to People. i knew how the Reviews would be, as i know the compounds and how the interaction with neurotransmitters is, besides the effects of things like cop, tmg, amentoflavone and carnitines.
amentoflavone is an incredible ingredient. People tend to just dose it too low. 180-200mg will immediately improve strength significantly.
redman24
Banned
also what do People want with Focus? i don't like this tunnelvision Feeling. much prefer an awareness, which presupposes high Levels of Serotonine, noradrenaline and Endorphins.
also what in katana supposedly enhances Performance? the only Thing i like is agmatine but the whole pump Thing is pointless, i like it for different reasons, or actually the reason it gives pumps rather than the pumps other ingredients give.
if i look at this i would say that a combination of creatinol Phosphate and amentoflavone would give more strength and a Kombination of dlpa, chocamine and caffeine would give more euphoria, mood Elevation, awareness, pain relief and make weights feel easier, Kind of giving you a very light on your feet feel.
this is also the only Thing that makes me not say that conqu3r is the best preworkout in the world. it's the fact that it is too cholinergic for my liking. i have played around with alpha-gpc and it usually decreased the Quality of the stim effect in a formula.
also what in katana supposedly enhances Performance? the only Thing i like is agmatine but the whole pump Thing is pointless, i like it for different reasons, or actually the reason it gives pumps rather than the pumps other ingredients give.
if i look at this i would say that a combination of creatinol Phosphate and amentoflavone would give more strength and a Kombination of dlpa, chocamine and caffeine would give more euphoria, mood Elevation, awareness, pain relief and make weights feel easier, Kind of giving you a very light on your feet feel.
this is also the only Thing that makes me not say that conqu3r is the best preworkout in the world. it's the fact that it is too cholinergic for my liking. i have played around with alpha-gpc and it usually decreased the Quality of the stim effect in a formula.
MidwestBeast
Legend
I used a couple samples of Katana and enjoyed it
redman24
Banned
i know many People stack supps, also in a preworkout context. using a preworkout but adding another product or pump, then this and that and suddenly it amounts to 4 products. but i doubt People would pay the same amount of Money for one Container containing all of that. i think that is the reason most preworkouts use lower than idealf dosages, because it Needs to be affordable to the customer.
they cannot tell me that they would not be able to make it more effective by using more and higher dosed ingredients.
that's why my product line works with very small Profit margins, and i would still prefer to use more ingredients, but the cost of raws makes up about half the cost of the product and it is around 50 Dollars or 55, which is high but not unseen in europe. if i was allowed to do what i want, the cost would probably go up to three times that, but in order to buy those ingredients yourself you would have to pay at least 300 Dollars.
i still don't get this market. People would never pay 5 Dollars for the perfect preworkout per serving, but nobody has Problems spending it on fast Food, coffee, booze, cigarettes etc...why?
wouldn't someone aiming to get the best results also want the best products?
they cannot tell me that they would not be able to make it more effective by using more and higher dosed ingredients.
that's why my product line works with very small Profit margins, and i would still prefer to use more ingredients, but the cost of raws makes up about half the cost of the product and it is around 50 Dollars or 55, which is high but not unseen in europe. if i was allowed to do what i want, the cost would probably go up to three times that, but in order to buy those ingredients yourself you would have to pay at least 300 Dollars.
i still don't get this market. People would never pay 5 Dollars for the perfect preworkout per serving, but nobody has Problems spending it on fast Food, coffee, booze, cigarettes etc...why?
wouldn't someone aiming to get the best results also want the best products?
Quads_of_Stee
Well-known member
uh maybe OTHER people actually look for things? Congrats, you don't. Please don't bash the product because it doesn't have what YOU are looking for it in it. that's why there is so many pre's on the market, because have you considered that different people want different things? Also have you even used Katana, because you clearly stated you havent. Let me guess, you could have looked at craze and known what it would've done (i am not saying katana is spiked) but please get off of your damn pedestal
Geoforce
Well-known member
What exactly are you basing this on? You do realize a licensed ingredient like cognizin is pretty damn expensive right? Have you compared each raw personally and taken into account the multiple licensed ingredients? Or are you just talking out your behind with no knowledge of what it costs to make a pre-workout? I'll just go ahead and assume the latter because I highly doubt Komodo and Olympus both sent you all the information on the ingredients they bought and the cost they got it for. This would allow you to make an accurate comparison of the cost instead of just saying something costs more because it has more ingredients. Bottom line you don't have a clue what Katana or Conqu3r costs.
Again what exactly is the purpose of your thread? To spout off an opinion on a product you have no intention of using and to dismiss people's comments who have used the product because you don't need to run something to know how it feels? Give me a break. This isn't your blog. You said you designed a pre-workout? Why don't you use it instead of going around bashing companies for no reason?
You have no intention to run Katana but thought it would be necessary to start a thread about it and ignore what anyone said in it. Thanks for wasting everyone's time.
Adobo
Member
You are quite incorrect. Katana and Conqu3r are manufactuered at the same place and I know the costs of each. Do you know that the total Cognizin brand citicoline in Katana costs more than lots of popular preworkouts that other users love?
There are different preworkouts for users looking for different things. Sorry that Katana doesn't offer what you are looking for. I'm glad you like Conqu3r because the makers of Katana have a great relationship with Olympus Labs and their main storefront.
redman24
Banned
i know craze contained a drug before its release as the promised effects did not match with the ingredients. after first usage i realized there was a strongly serotonergic drug in it. there is no pedestal, i just have more knowledge on neurochemistry than most. it is not about what you want but what an ingredient combination will do and i can tell by looking at which neurotransmitters are affected to what degree.so i don't nee to use it in order to know what it feels like. i could also tell which neurotransmitters would be most beneficially increased for someone if they told me about their personality type etc.
i understand skepticism as People here don't know me, but in europe, especially Germany they do and that alone just sold my preworkout 150 times in just one store over the Weekend as preorders. also there was no Advertising, just my Reputation. sorry i am not embarassed to say what my talents are.
i couldn't fix a car engine or build a bamboo hut, but i have a certain feel for These things that others don't.
redman24
Banned
i also have good contact with Olympus labs and as far as i know alpha-gpc is more expensive than cdp-choline.
the purpose of the thread? i don't understand why People do not care about underdosed ingredients. it is basically caffeine, cdp-choline and agmatine.
the rest is either underdosed or some new Kind of Hype, what's with the glycerol lately? as if agmapure doesn't give enough of a pump.
.
i know People get easily bothered by me stating These things, i am okay with it. building a Reputation takes time. after researching supplements for nearly 10.000 hours and being on Forums for 5 years in Germany People now will buy anything i make, as they know i have tried all ingredients and combinations, spent thousands, probably more like ten thousand on supplements and now i can tell by a formula what it will do and feel like without having any idea previously who made it or what it is intended to do.
i also over and over think: why did they do that? it doesn't make sense. why use amento at that dose? why does everyone use tyrosine? dlpa gives a much better feel due to its Opioid similar activity.better mood, more pain relief, less Problems with possible dopaminergic anxiety post workout when included in a stimulant formula.
so does katana give large strength gains along with strong Stimulation which is central rather than peripheral, makes you want to crush the weights, eliminate pain, cause euphoria, yet a sense of calm and happiness?
i would assume it gives a strong pump and Focus, which is actually a narrowing of your field of awareness. who would want to narrow there perception?
now don't compare it to amphetamines or Ritalin and say they give Focus and it is great for whatever...that is not Focus, that is improved perception. Focus is narrowed perception.
the purpose of the thread? i don't understand why People do not care about underdosed ingredients. it is basically caffeine, cdp-choline and agmatine.
the rest is either underdosed or some new Kind of Hype, what's with the glycerol lately? as if agmapure doesn't give enough of a pump.
.
i know People get easily bothered by me stating These things, i am okay with it. building a Reputation takes time. after researching supplements for nearly 10.000 hours and being on Forums for 5 years in Germany People now will buy anything i make, as they know i have tried all ingredients and combinations, spent thousands, probably more like ten thousand on supplements and now i can tell by a formula what it will do and feel like without having any idea previously who made it or what it is intended to do.
i also over and over think: why did they do that? it doesn't make sense. why use amento at that dose? why does everyone use tyrosine? dlpa gives a much better feel due to its Opioid similar activity.better mood, more pain relief, less Problems with possible dopaminergic anxiety post workout when included in a stimulant formula.
so does katana give large strength gains along with strong Stimulation which is central rather than peripheral, makes you want to crush the weights, eliminate pain, cause euphoria, yet a sense of calm and happiness?
i would assume it gives a strong pump and Focus, which is actually a narrowing of your field of awareness. who would want to narrow there perception?
now don't compare it to amphetamines or Ritalin and say they give Focus and it is great for whatever...that is not Focus, that is improved perception. Focus is narrowed perception.
redman24
Banned
btw, pes enhanced contains cdp-choline too. everyone i know including me thought of it as very mediocre. this is the eu Version without yohimbine.
now i could start going on about that one, but why don't companies just admit that they cannot dose all ingredients to perfect Levels due to cost or lack of sales so higher Profit margins required?
if you make a product that costs 50% ist retail Price in raws you will not make much of a Profit on one unit, but if it is better than the rest the amount of sales will make up for it.
sorry, it is just that i see all These pwos and Keep thinking, why did they do this and that etc...could have been done so much better.
and please do not tell me that Companies work with such high raw material cost. most cost about 3-5 Dollars to produce i would assume. conquer certainly more, i can't tell as it is the US market and i am not from there but i am sure it is the most expensive pwo to produce on the market currently.
and if not, why would someone sacrifice the potential of massive strength gains for one ingredient, in case that the cognizin really costs more than a few Dollars?
now i could start going on about that one, but why don't companies just admit that they cannot dose all ingredients to perfect Levels due to cost or lack of sales so higher Profit margins required?
if you make a product that costs 50% ist retail Price in raws you will not make much of a Profit on one unit, but if it is better than the rest the amount of sales will make up for it.
sorry, it is just that i see all These pwos and Keep thinking, why did they do this and that etc...could have been done so much better.
and please do not tell me that Companies work with such high raw material cost. most cost about 3-5 Dollars to produce i would assume. conquer certainly more, i can't tell as it is the US market and i am not from there but i am sure it is the most expensive pwo to produce on the market currently.
and if not, why would someone sacrifice the potential of massive strength gains for one ingredient, in case that the cognizin really costs more than a few Dollars?
Geoforce
Well-known member
According to google searches Alpha is cheaper than Cognizin. Adobo who has a much better idea than you ever will of the costs of Katana and Conqu3r has already weighed in and told you you are incorrect. You keep ignoring points and going on and on about how much you know.
You're continuing to ask questions about the effects of Katana even though people have told you and you don't have any plan to ever run it.
Again this isn't your blog.
redman24
Banned
weird, in europe katana sells very badly. how come it is so popular here? i get a Feeling that People have a Kind of Scene and are friends with each other, and being on Forums etc. you get to do your Marketing etc. without that it doesn't sell...
the amount of cdp choline in katana costs about 3-4 Dollars. unless the cognizine is 5 times as expensive, for which one could have used the difference for 2-3 real ergogenic ingredients. hm...
the amount of cdp choline in katana costs about 3-4 Dollars. unless the cognizine is 5 times as expensive, for which one could have used the difference for 2-3 real ergogenic ingredients. hm...
Geoforce
Well-known member
Cognizine is much more expensive. It's a licensed ingredient. I'm glad they went with licensed ingredients. Yes they could have gone with more ingredients, but more ingredients doesn't always mean better.
Katana has extremely good feedback. From people who have actually ran the product. It has a lot of repeat buyers. Repeat buyers because they enjoyed the workouts from it.
I'm smelling a jealous competitor here and the stench is coming from redman.
Quads_of_Stee
Well-known member
redman you say you don't think you are on a pedestal yet you belittle others for not about a certain field. Same could be said about you and many other fields but no one is bashing you for not knowing stuff. So yes, you are a great example of "better than you" attitude towards anything relating to supps. As Geoforce and myself have mentioned LICENSED ingredients, read LICENSED, cost more. They are not just generic versions. in your last post you clearly stated you don't know what the cognizine costs, which is a licensed ingredient. I am out of here because it's clear that you think you are far superior to everyone and that your product is the best, therefore refuse to accept any other viewpoints.
redman24
Banned
i don't care about Money, i gave companies ideas for formulas for free. my first preworkout sold 150 Units in one Weekend in one shop during presale. my products are not in the american market and katana is not a competitor to my product in Germany, so where would the jealousy be?
i made the products to give People the best they can get, not for Money. thats why i get an extremely small Profit per unit. but the amount that will be sold will give me a good wage to live on and that is all i care about.
i say when products are good. Omega burn24 is a great product, hard to beat. sns inhibit-e is a great formula at a great Price.
as for effectivity the best preworkout so far before mine was nutraclipses alphadrive for feel and f5 is good for strength gains.
secretabridge helped me heal some acute injuries in days.
besides that, especially in the preworkout category, i see mostly crap. other categories are different. there are a few good nutrient paritioners for example and also a few decent fatburners.
my favourite pre before the dmaa ban was maximize intense. craze didn't hold a candle to it for me. too serotonergic without much other effects so no drive or strength gains. my current formula outperforms craze and it is probably on par with a few others in the Performance department, but those others have "secret ingredients". you know what i mean. mine is healthier though and will improve many aspects of health as opposed to stuff that makes you Train like mad for 2 hours and then not sleep all night.
i am not jealous at all. when i saw conquer i wrote to ray and said thanks for making such a nice product in such a Money greedy industry. i only think you should have used less cholinergics. as it turns out many People feel it doesn't provide them with a kick and makes them drowsy but the non stims are the best i have seen.
it is actually almost equal to a formula i once made for fun, only mine had added forms of carnitine, ubiquinol, chocamine, dlpa, tmg and Grape seed extract. no glycerol though or any cholinergics.
Feedback was rep increases from 6-12 in one workout, strength increases by 40 Pounds, Feeling like Walking on clouds etc.
unfortunately it would be too expensive to produce.
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
Edit
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
redman24
Banned
costs about as much as the amount of sensoril i used going by calculation of products on the market. yet i used another ingredient costing around the same and many many more, None of them cheap.
as i said, i know nothing about a lot of stuff and i have no Problem admitting it. People do not understand that intelligent People only talk of things they understand. thats why you will never see me "lose" an Argument, as i stay away from Topics i don't understand. i also only use licensed ingredients where possible, yet i still use the other ingredients in clinical dosages. i was asked if we could reduce one ingredient to save Money and i said no. if they would do it anyways i would probably stop working with them, meaning i lose my potentially high enough income to live the life of my dreams in india, where i could buy a house with the Money.
i just don't understand why he could not use 4 grams of citrulline and 80mg of amentoflavone. an aquaintance gets amentoflavone per gram for 1.20 Dollars. so an extra 2 Dollars. and citrulline malate costs nothing, you can get it in the netherlands for 8-9 Dollars per 300 grams, which equals 150grams of l-citrulline. an extra 60 grams would have cost him probably another 2 Dollars or so at his supplier. i doubt he pays more than the end customer in a store.
as i said, i know nothing about a lot of stuff and i have no Problem admitting it. People do not understand that intelligent People only talk of things they understand. thats why you will never see me "lose" an Argument, as i stay away from Topics i don't understand. i also only use licensed ingredients where possible, yet i still use the other ingredients in clinical dosages. i was asked if we could reduce one ingredient to save Money and i said no. if they would do it anyways i would probably stop working with them, meaning i lose my potentially high enough income to live the life of my dreams in india, where i could buy a house with the Money.
i just don't understand why he could not use 4 grams of citrulline and 80mg of amentoflavone. an aquaintance gets amentoflavone per gram for 1.20 Dollars. so an extra 2 Dollars. and citrulline malate costs nothing, you can get it in the netherlands for 8-9 Dollars per 300 grams, which equals 150grams of l-citrulline. an extra 60 grams would have cost him probably another 2 Dollars or so at his supplier. i doubt he pays more than the end customer in a store.
redman24
Banned
licensed ingredients will cost Germans the same as anyone else. actually the products have to be shipped to the UK and then to Germany. custom taxes, shipping fees etc. as most stuff from the uk is made in the us and then finally lands in Germany. so the cost is even much higher in the end.
Geoforce
Well-known member
Lol. We really appreciate you gracing us with your presence. So the purpose of the thread was for you to point out that you had no idea how much licensed ingredients cost and aren't very good at comparing how much it costs for some companies to make pre-workouts? Sweet. And you have no desire to run a product that you felt like starting a thread about? Double sweet. And you will tell us what products are good because you say when they are good.
Abso-freaking-lutely!
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
Post "your" pwo formula so i can **** on it even if its decent.
Geoforce
Well-known member
You don't understand the costs involved in pre-workouts and don't understand the difference in cost between licensed and non-licensed ingredients. You falsely thought that Katana must cost 5X as much as Conq3er because you saw one product had more ingredients then the other therefore it must cost much more.
I thought you stayed away from topics you didn't understand?
Hockeyaus33
Active member
Strong first post
Geoforce
Well-known member
redman will tell you when your time has been wasted!
This thread has some high level ownage at least.
mr.cooper69
Legend
Why are you guys arguing with the board's resident expert?
Geoforce
Well-known member
Considering the vast amount of misinformation in this thread I think both posts went a long ways towards teaching people about a product. Nothing wrong with someone defending themselves against slander and clearing up falsehoods.
carbohydrate
New member
Soo what ingredients do you use pre redman? im genuinely curious, id like to give them a go because I also enjoy the same feels you describe.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Redman = Deutschbag
true, until you want to be an ******* to me...then you get the boot. a little courtesy goes a long way...he had none.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Weird, in Europe, David Hasselhoff sells millions of records. How come he isn't so popular here?
Blasphemy...night rider was awesome...when I was 12.
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