Why aren't there more single nitrate products?

[Est1995]

Does anyone know how much beet root extract it takes to obtain a dose worthy amount of nitrates? If price is the problem I still don't see why bulk beet root, food grade sodium nitrate, or potassium nitrate isn't feasible (if were after the nitrates for ourselves and not the discussion of TL)

 

[mr.cooper69]

Does anyone know how much beet root extract it takes to obtain a dose worthy amount of nitrates? If price is the problem I still don't see why bulk beet root, food grade sodium nitrate, or potassium nitrate isn't feasible (if were after the nitrates for ourselves and not the discussion of TL)

Not feasible with beet root extract.

 

[Admin]

You're missing the point. Before TL introduced nitrates, there was no solution for increasing NO in people effectively for performances of pumps and exercise enhancement. They changed the game, and they deserve credit for it.

They are patenting nitrates for performance enhancement, not toothpaste use. Utility is still intellectual property.

Not to mention the time and investment in getting it patented.

Innovation isn't just finding new products...but finding new niches as well. From a business perspective, its downright smart. Interested to see if others follow.

 

[Nyrin]

Does anyone know how much beet root extract it takes to obtain a dose worthy amount of nitrates? If price is the problem I still don't see why bulk beet root, food grade sodium nitrate, or potassium nitrate isn't feasible (if were after the nitrates for ourselves and not the discussion of TL)

Beet root is typically unstandardized, which makes it a total crap shoot to guess how much real nitrate content you're getting.

You can absolutely still use food-grade NaNO3 or KNO3 (e.g. the kind used for curing meat) if you're inclined to. It tends to be rather expensive when you look for the food-grade stuff, though; and using "stump remover" or other fertilizer-grade products is definitely ill-advised.

 

[Est1995]

Beet root is typically unstandardized, which makes it a total crap shoot to guess how much real nitrate content you're getting.

You can absolutely still use food-grade NaNO3 or KNO3 (e.g. the kind used for curing meat) if you're inclined to. It tends to be rather expensive when you look for the food-grade stuff, though; and using "stump remover" or other fertilizer-grade products is definitely ill-advised.

Interesting. Assuming were after nitrate and not nitrite what about something like this?

(There was a link here which took you to a site selling 8 ounces of 99.6% pure sodium nitrate for 14.99 but apparently I do not have enough posts to link it)

Works out to 224 grams for 14.99. Seems realitively inexpensive considering that would last you upwards of 4 months if you dosed 2 grams per day.

 

[kisaj]

Good conversation all, I've learned more about the topic of nitrates than I had anticipated.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

iForce Potassium Nitrate is my go-to.

Yeah, like I mentioned, it is my go to.

What have you guys found to be your sweet spot dosing the purple caps?

 

[hvactech]

What have you guys found to be your sweet spot dosing the purple caps?

4 caps preworkout

 

[kisaj]

2-3 caps. I tried 4, but I got weak towards the end of sets and just a little light headed. Nitrates are awesome, but I need to find the balance more so than others.

I have a cuff and have experienced an almost 20pt drop in systolic 60-90 min post.

 

[Jiigzz]

2-3 caps. I tried 4, but I got weak towards the end of sets and just a little light headed. Nitrates are awesome, but I need to find the balance more so than others.

I have a cuff and have experienced an almost 20pt drop in systolic 60-90 min post.

Wow that's scary low

 

[kisaj]

It's relative as I have always rode in the mid-high 120s. Being on TRT, I keep very close track of BP, RBC, and heartbeat. So post workout, a 20 pt drop will only bring me into the mid-high 130s.

 

[Rushie]

Vit C has nothing to do with it

And I mean, as long as you did not in any context ever advertise it as going with an amino acid, either directly in your labels,marketing, or indirectly via your forum sales reps, etc... sure

Or if you want to sell an effective ingredient, you just pay the guy to license it...

How is this any different than literally every single other patented ingredient out there that people buy from the provider?

I still can't comprehend why you and the others would be so happy to rat out those using nitrates to Kramer, though (and doing it behind the backs of those you rat out). That whole Thermolife thread is full of POS back-stabbing moves like that by you and the others. It makes me sick just reading it.

 

[kisaj]

Huh? Is that really happening?

 

[thebigt]

Not to mention the time and investment in getting it patented.

Innovation isn't just finding new products...but finding new niches as well. From a business perspective, its downright smart. Interested to see if others follow.

unfortunately smart from a business perspective usually spells higher prices for consumers, at least this has been my experience!!!

 

[De__eB]

I still can't comprehend why you and the others would be so happy to rat out those using nitrates to Kramer, though (and doing it behind the backs of those you rat out). That whole Thermolife thread is full of POS back-stabbing moves like that by you and the others. It makes me sick just reading it.

I don't like shady business practices.

A company willing to illegally source someone else's patented ingredients, is extremely likely to also be willing to cut corners in other areas.

Companies that cut corners and break the law put companies that try to adhere to the law at a competitive disadvantage.

They also bring government scrutiny to the industry, causing even more regulatory headaches for companies that are trying to do things right.

 

[Rushie]

I don't like shady business practices.

A company willing to illegally source someone else's patented ingredients, is extremely likely to also be willing to cut corners in other areas.

Companies that cut corners and break the law put companies that try to adhere to the law at a competitive disadvantage.

They also bring government scrutiny to the industry, causing even more regulatory headaches for companies that are trying to do things right.

I can understand that. I cannot understand however how you can banter with posters/reps on one forum and then go and rat the companies they rep for on another + stand complicitly by as others PM Kramer personal details of some of those reps so that he can (potentially) sue them personally. I mean that is just a POS move right there. Not to mention kissing a** of that psycho Kramer in the first place which is just wrong on so many levels.

Sorry, but I call it how I see it. And I have yet to see anyone who is happy naming names and companies to Kramer saying something to reps of those companies "face to face" about how wrong it is what they are doing in using nitrates.

 

[thebigt]

You're missing the point. Before TL introduced nitrates, there was no solution for increasing NO in people effectively for performances of pumps and exercise enhancement. They changed the game, and they deserve credit for it.

They are patenting nitrates for performance enhancement, not toothpaste use. Utility is still intellectual property.

coop you were around back then...judgementday southpaw milas and me were all gungho for aps mesomorph and creatine nitrate back in 2010 the same time as TL came out with c-bol!!! hell i even joined bb.com just to try to convince those knuckleheads that nitrate was better than mono....you were also on board with nitrate back then!!! thermolife was not exclusive in promoting creatine nitrate!!!!

 

[De__eB]

coop you were around back then...judgementday southpaw milas and me were all gungho for aps mesomorph and creatine nitrate back in 2010 the same time as TL came out with c-bol!!! hell i even joined bb.com just to try to convince those knuckleheads that nitrate was better than mono....you were also on board with nitrate back then!!! thermolife was not exclusive in promoting creatine nitrate!!!!

Patent was filed in 2007.

 

[thebigt]

Patent was filed in 2007.

lol....if i had known that i never would have pushed it so hard!!!!

this is just another example of how consumers will always get shafted by the law...corporate and private lawyers representing private interests are smarter than government lawyers representing the people, imo.

 

[Jiigzz]

I can understand that. I cannot understand however how you can banter with posters/reps on one forum and then go and rat the companies they rep for on another + stand complicitly by as others PM Kramer personal details of some of those reps so that he can (potentially) sue them personally. I mean that is just a POS move right there. Not to mention kissing a** of that psycho Kramer in the first place which is just wrong on so many levels.

Sorry, but I call it how I see it. And I have yet to see anyone who is happy naming names and companies to Kramer saying something to reps of those companies "face to face" about how wrong it is what they are doing in using nitrates.

New account is suspicious

 

[Piston Honda]

Invalid Link Removed

 

[jamesm11]

lol....if i had known that i never would have pushed it so hard!!!!

this is just another example of how consumers will always get shafted by the law...corporate and private lawyers representing private interests are smarter than government lawyers representing the people, imo.

That makes no sense. If people cannot profit off their innovations then you stifle inventions in general. You seem to always complain about the government or corporate conspiracies.

 

[hewhoisripped]

Haven't read everything but... Someone has a patent on KNO3? As in the 5 atom ionic compound?

 

[hewhoisripped]

I think someone mentioned it but food grade KNO3 can be had for dirt cheap. As in it may be cheaper than 'organic dirt'.

 

[fightbackhxc]

I don't like shady business practices.

A company willing to illegally source someone else's patented ingredients, is extremely likely to also be willing to cut corners in other areas.

Companies that cut corners and break the law put companies that try to adhere to the law at a competitive disadvantage.

They also bring government scrutiny to the industry, causing even more regulatory headaches for companies that are trying to do things right.

You can't argue with that. People get so upset at the FDA wanting to regulate the industry but at the same time multiple companies are giving them every reason to.

 

[thebigt]

That makes no sense. If people cannot profit off their innovations then you stifle inventions in general. You seem to always complain about the government or corporate conspiracies.

there is a lot to complain about!!!

google government conspiracies that are true!!!

 

[paul56778]

How does potassium nitrate stack with glycerol, agmatine and COP and CM

 

[money0351]

How does potassium nitrate stack with glycerol, agmatine and COP and CM

if you were going to get all of those products why not just pick up some high volume?
2 grams of arginine nitrate
Hydromax
A gram of Agmatine
4 grams of L citrulline
And a bunch of other goodies...
Imo, the pumps are unmatched

 

[paul56778]

Most of them ingredients are in Conqu3r which i have and am stacking with V1tality was just wondering if i buy some IF Potassium Nitrate it would further benefit along with ARA and PA

 

[kisaj]

PN would benefit any other product, IMO.

 

[paul56778]

whats a good dose to add with Conq3uer

 

[money0351]

Most of them ingredients are in Conqu3r which i have and am stacking with V1tality was just wondering if i buy some IF Potassium Nitrate it would further benefit along with ARA and PA

the pumps would be pretty gnarly with KNO3 and ArA

 

[frankz2]

Most of them ingredients are in Conqu3r which i have and am stacking with V1tality was just wondering if i buy some IF Potassium Nitrate it would further benefit along with ARA and PA

Will you be able to effectively get through your workout with all that? Lord knows I would struggle.

 

[Est1995]

I think someone mentioned it but food grade KNO3 can be had for dirt cheap. As in it may be cheaper than 'organic dirt'.

So basically its safe to consume "food grade" potassium nitrate? (KNO3) About to run out of High Volume and need a nitrate replacement lolol. All i want to know is if i buy the food grade potassium nitrate and throw a gram in my pre workout will i explode? :dunno:

 

[Nyrin]

So basically its safe to consume "food grade" potassium nitrate? (KNO3) About to run out of High Volume and need a nitrate replacement lolol. All i want to know is if i buy the food grade potassium nitrate and throw a gram in my pre workout will i explode? :dunno:

Food-grade potassium nitrate is used as a preservative/curing agent for actual food, so yes -- it'll be as safe as those prepared foods (e.g. jerky) are. Combining with a reducing agent like vitamin C is always advisable to limit nitrosamine formation (this is why nitrate products almost always have vitamin C in them; vitamin C is the reference reducing agent).

 

[TheIronAsylum]

what do nitrates even do

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Cardio protective, circulatory enhancing, "Pump" (Nitric Oxide). I eat Beets like they're going out of style

 

[bdcc]

I completely understand the patent model.

Keep in mind we have brought a few ingredients to market as a small company and have had some of them copied within weeks/months of us putting a lot of time and money into research and development.

So, we research something, release it and then another company comes along and uses money to market it rather than having to spend it on research.

I like companies who try and stay on top of innovation and am happy to pay a little more to support it.

 

[thebigt]

in 2012 the supplement industry brought in a staggering 32 billion dollars, i think they are getting all the support they need...

 

[bdcc]

Total revenue doesn't say anything about distribution though.

Let's play out a hypothetical:

Company A pays $100k in R&D to bring a new ingredient to market.

Company B see A selling it and put it in their product without any testing whatsoever.

Without the cost of R&D it is possible company B can sell it cheaper.

If the copycats are the ones making all the sales the original innovators go out of business.

A patent helps protect innovation.

 

[Jiigzz]

Total revenue doesn't say anything about distribution though.

Let's play out a hypothetical:

Company A pays $100k in R&D to bring a new ingredient to market.

Company B see A selling it and put it in their product without any testing whatsoever.

Without the cost of R&D it is possible company B can sell it cheaper.

If the copycats are the ones making all the sales the original innovators go out of business.

A patent helps protect innovation.

Agreed.

Its like the whole prop blend thing - im all for it as it protects peoples investments in R&D. Hardly any supplement users are actually aware of what they are using so the argument that its for deceptive purposes, is IMO, flawed.

A patent is both protective and ensures quality for the end user if licensed.

I never understand why patents are looked down on considering you can protect almost anything with it. Technology, code etc etc.

Apple invested money in a particular function, samsung copied and was sued (and vice versa) - it protects the company from misuse and concept stealing.

 

[thebigt]

Total revenue doesn't say anything about distribution though.

Let's play out a hypothetical:

Company A pays $100k in R&D to bring a new ingredient to market.

Company B see A selling it and put it in their product without any testing whatsoever.

Without the cost of R&D it is possible company B can sell it cheaper.

If the copycats are the ones making all the sales the original innovators go out of business.

A patent helps protect innovation.

how many patents does pes have?

 

[thebigt]

Agreed.

Its like the whole prop blend thing - im all for it as it protects peoples investments in R&D. Hardly any supplement users are actually aware of what they are using so the argument that its for deceptive purposes, is IMO, flawed.

A patent is both protective and ensures quality for the end user if licensed.

I never understand why patents are looked down on considering you can protect almost anything with it. Technology, code etc etc.

Apple invested money in a particular function, samsung copied and was sued (and vice versa) - it protects the company from misuse and concept stealing.

how many patents does SNS have?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Im losing my patents...

 

[thebigt]

Total revenue doesn't say anything about distribution though.

Let's play out a hypothetical:

Company A pays $100k in R&D to bring a new ingredient to market.

Company B see A selling it and put it in their product without any testing whatsoever.

Without the cost of R&D it is possible company B can sell it cheaper.

If the copycats are the ones making all the sales the original innovators go out of business.

A patent helps protect innovation.

i have watched natty grow pes from a 1 product start-up company into a highly successfull and very innovative company. pes products are probably among the most copied products and still remain top sellers---even though others sell copycats for a cheaper price....all without the need for patents!!!

the very success of the company you represent shows how how the need for patents is over-rated, imo.

 

[Jiigzz]

how many patents does SNS have?

Im not sure how thays relevant but a patent protects a brands innovation. Yes PES has remained successful but this isnt always the case.

Think of apple, they bought in tablets, samsung copied and is now worth a lot more. Bebo/ myspace started social networking to a large degree, facebook came and perfected and shut them both down. While you cannot patent an idea, the code used to build the sites almost always is. Try building a new facebook using similar code and youll see what I mean.

Otherwise the company with the largest budget could just overthrow. PES has a smart business minded person behind it with good structures in place that accomodate growth (hiring regional managers, and the like will help move growth and distribute workloads) whereas a lot of the copycats do not.

Companies are always serving lawsuits (Google etc) because people try use their allogorithms)

 

[thebigt]

[QUOTE=Jiigzz;4881496 PES has a smart business minded person behind it with good structures in place that accomodate growth (hiring regional managers, and the like will help move growth and distribute workloads) whereas a lot of the copycats do not.

this is my point!!!

pes is the perfect example of why patents are not needed in the supplement industry!!!!

 

[jamesm11]

this is my point!!!

pes is the perfect example of why patents are not needed in the supplement industry!!!!

Or they haven't created anything novel that is worth spending the $10-15k to patent.

Patents aren't evil, they're part of the Constitution. It's necessary to protect innovation because it provides incentive to find the next useful invention. If companies couldn't protect something they spend millions or billions on then they wouldn't bother innovating.

 

[Spaniard]

I think a tad behind, last i checked, NOXygen, Condense and D-Pol are on the way out

I don't blame him, it's his intellectual property and companies are making millions off of it behind his back hoping he doesn't notice, instead of just going through him. No one wants to do what's right, they want the quick fix or money maker in this industry, or in life for that matter

Vit C has nothing to do with it

And I mean, as long as you did not in any context ever advertise it as going with an amino acid, either directly in your labels,marketing, or indirectly via your forum sales reps, etc... sure

Or if you want to sell an effective ingredient, you just pay the guy to license it...

How is this any different than literally every single other patented ingredient out there that people buy from the provider?

Lots of patent support in here.

Yes, he owns the patent BUT his minimums and his mighty hand of whom he shall impart the divine worthiness to rights are only feasible for larger companies and or their sister companies via the good ol backdoor method.

How is that fair? It turns it into a Farmers Market vs Wal Mart story. It keeps a sought after ingredient such as nitrates, in a major monopoly status for the larger companies like MP, USP etc etc.

Perhaps he should consider letting more companies license it and there wouldn't be people trying to "steal" his technology.

 

[Jiigzz]

Lots of patent support in here.

Yes, he owns the patent BUT his minimums and his mighty hand of whom he shall impart the divine worthiness to rights are only feasible for larger companies and or their sister companies via the good ol backdoor method.

How is that fair? It turns it into a Farmers Market vs Wal Mart story. It keeps a sought after ingredient such as nitrates, in a major monopoly status for the larger companies like MP, USP etc etc.

Perhaps he should consider letting more companies license it and there wouldn't be people trying to "steal" his technology.

Good points V.


He must be selective as PES did licence them but I also know other companies have tried and failed.

But yeah if he is unwilling to negotiate thats his issue, not that of the patent office. I support the principle of patents to protect innovation