Unanswered Which compounds have the least andro sides?

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Mathb33

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You are making him repeat himself... what he says is pretty damn clear and stop asking about evidence this makes no sense in this particular situation. Anybody decent here will tell you a doctor WILL NOT freaking have someone around 3000 when they are usually scared to put someone around optimal levels in the 1000-1100 , exactly from fear of what he just explained.
 
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PHOTOSnFIBERS

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Question for OP...are you getting your TRT from a “men’s clinic” or “TRT Clinic”? If so, that’s why your dose is so high! I made the mistake of taking the easy route with a local TRT clinic...it was far too easy. While I genuinely did need TRT, it was very apparent to me that it was a business first and a “worry about your health later” type of place. And it sounds like I’m not the only one.
Well to be honest im not sure i know the difference between the two. They don't treat just men, in fact they actually treat women with TrT as well, but obviously not in doses as high as mine. I guess that disqualifies them as a men's clinic? I will also say that my wife has worked in medical for over fifteen years, and my sister in law for 20, EVERY medical institution is a business first, at least from the top down.
 
Kratom267

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Well most treat women as well, mine also does all sorts of cosmetic crap for men and women. What’s the name of the place? If it has a title or name, then it’s a clinic. Not a doctors office.
 
Kratom267

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Not harping on OP at all, just saying, be careful...might be a good idea to get a second opinion on TRT dosage. But what he is saying is very true, a dosage for one guy might be perfect but might not be enough for another guy. Still...300 is up there. Might be a good idea to get your own blood work done if they don’t schedule it often enough, which is common with clinics (including my own)
 
RickyBlobby

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Question for OP...are you getting your TRT from a “men’s clinic” or “TRT Clinic”? If so, that’s why your dose is so high! I made the mistake of taking the easy route with a local TRT clinic...it was far too easy. While I genuinely did need TRT, it was very apparent to me that it was a business first and a “worry about your health later” type of place. And it sounds like I’m not the only one.
Yeah the first TRT clinic I went to wanted to put me on 300mg/ week plus HCG. I think it was like $5k a year or something ridiculous like that.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

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Yes you keep repeating yourself, a "medically accepted range". Accepted by who? Is there documentation of this or am i just supposed to take your word for it? What is this governing body who would go after a doctor? We have had many posts on this now, all saying the same thing, and when i ask for any kind of documentation, you simply repeat yourself.

If i didn't know better, i would think this is just made up. You seem to be so very sure of all this, so one would assume you have seen this all in writing. Right? Any kind of official statement by a governing body? Anything?
Do I also need to prove that the healthy range for hematocrit stops at 51%?

This is not a hard concept to process. This is on every fucking blood test under the sun in black and white. If they’re letting you above that range, they’re in hot water. Plain and simple. So they aren’t going to do that for long, enjoy it now while you can.

Try and do some reading on a website that isn’t just fluff.
 
Kratom267

Kratom267

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Yeah that’s what I’m talking about...best get your own blood work done!
 
Smont

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Any dose would suppress you anyway. That’s how it works. Suppression has nothing to do with why 300mg cyp a week is never trt dosage for anyone ever.

But I’m guessing, now that I see your doc has bloods set for 4 or 5 months, you’re getting a free blast, and he’s going to rein it in after about 4 months.
I'd take 150 a week and stock pile the rest
 
Old Witch

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Yeah the first TRT clinic I went to wanted to put me on 300mg/ week plus HCG. I think it was like $5k a year or something ridiculous like that.
Yeah but when you walk in with numbers way over the top they have to take it down... they know what they’re doing though, everyone saves it up. Nobody takes the full dose. It’s a wink and a nudge kind of situation.
 
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Yeah but when you walk in with numbers way over the top they have to take it down... they know what they’re doing though, everyone saves it up. Nobody takes the full dose. It’s a wink and a nudge kind of situation.
I think you are just painting with a wide brush man, you don't really know what EVERY clinic does just based on a few. For example, my clinic didn't give me a little vial, they gave me individual syringes pre-filled to the exact amount per dose, and gave me the needle tips and showed me how to attach them.

If they were making it easy for me to stockpile and such, why go through the trouble? I think you guys are reading way too far into it, and i prefer to refer to Occam's Razor. This clinic thinks people should be able to feel how they want to feel, a simple explanation. It's not like 300mg is a blast cycle, you guys say that yourself. It's not a GIANT dose, like some guy slamming a gram a week.

I think they give a higher dose barring two things, the patient says they want lower, which one of you guys might do, or if the bloods show danger. Aside from that, this is about people feeling good and getting in shape. Im 8 days in and i already feel a lot better.
 
Old Witch

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But it is a blast. 300mg is a blast. Not a great one. But it is definitely not a cruise unless you’re HUGE.

Are you huge?
 
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Well most treat women as well, mine also does all sorts of cosmetic crap for men and women. What’s the name of the place? If it has a title or name, then it’s a clinic. Not a doctors office.
No offense to you but i won't mention the name. Some guys here have already accused my doc of unethical practice, so not too tough to see how that might turn out. I've never criticized anybody in my life for juicing to the gills, it's their choice, but i get the feeling some people here don't share my opinion. They think everybody should follow the same protocol.
 
RickyBlobby

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Witch is right though. If your blood is repeatedly too thick, and they don’t make adjustments and you die from a cardiovascular incident.... they could get sued.
 
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Do I also need to prove that the healthy range for hematocrit stops at 51%?

This is not a hard concept to process. This is on every fucking blood test under the sun in black and white. If they’re letting you above that range, they’re in hot water. Plain and simple. So they aren’t going to do that for long, enjoy it now while you can.

Try and do some reading on a website that isn’t just fluff.
There are some guys in the public eye that have obviously done tons of juice, and even talk about it, and plenty of them are in their 60s or 70s and no health issues to speak of. They did a heck of a lot more than 300mg/w. Other than my hormones being low, my blood results were all good save a slightly elevated cholesterol, most likely due to the LGD.

My family is healthy with no history of cancer, heart disease, nothing. Hell im 41 and don't even wear glasses. Im one of those guys who never watched my diet but was always healthy. But thank you for answering my question, inadvertently. There is no official numbers for TRT, you are just trying to impose your standard on everybody else.

Why you are trying to is another question. Just a good samaritan worried about some stranger on TRT?
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

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No offense to you but i won't mention the name. Some guys here have already accused my doc of unethical practice, so not too tough to see how that might turn out. I've never criticized anybody in my life for juicing to the gills, it's their choice, but i get the feeling some people here don't share my opinion. They think everybody should follow the same protocol.
Dude if anybody recommends juicing to the gills, it’s me. Ask anyone here.

That being said, you’re not a professional mass monster with years of experience. 300mg a week is a blast for you, period.
 
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PHOTOSnFIBERS

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But it is a blast. 300mg is a blast. Not a great one. But it is definitely not a cruise unless you’re HUGE.

Are you huge?
For somebody with 34 TT, even 100mg/w is a blast by your standards. I don't define anything with moving goalposts. And it's odd you would do something like that with TRT, which you insist should be administered so ethically. So you are willing to redefine the definition of my TRT dose based on my size, which you don't actually know.

This is comedy.
 
Old Witch

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There are some guys in the public eye that have obviously done tons of juice, and even talk about it, and plenty of them are in their 60s or 70s and no health issues to speak of. They did a heck of a lot more than 300mg/w. Other than my hormones being low, my blood results were all good save a slightly elevated cholesterol, most likely due to the LGD.

My family is healthy with no history of cancer, heart disease, nothing. Hell im 41 and don't even wear glasses. Im one of those guys who never watched my diet but was always healthy. But thank you for answering my question, inadvertently. There is no official numbers for TRT, you are just trying to impose your standard on everybody else.

Why you are trying to is another question. Just a good samaritan worried about some stranger on TRT?
Ok so this tells me, and anyone else, exactly what we need to know. You are completely uninformed. You do not know how to use steroids. It is not about one protocol. It is about proper use vs. abuse. Jumping on 300mg without expecting ever to lower that dose is completely insane.

This is a harm reduction forum. Gather from that what you will.
 
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PHOTOSnFIBERS

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Witch is right though. If your blood is repeatedly too thick, and they don’t make adjustments and you die from a cardiovascular incident.... they could get sued.
When i brought my bloods home on paper, my wife was itching to take a look at them as she knows how to read a blood chart (she does it every day for a career). My H/H was actually low, which im sure my doc also realized. This goes back to the idea that not everybody reacts to the same dose of hormones in the same way.

My hunch is, based on my talks with my wife and my doctor, my body is already below the markers that tend to get dangerous when guys go on TRT, and if im on a relatively high dose, my markers will be on a good place. It's not like im one of those guys who already has blood pressure through the roof and then gets on TRT and only makes it worse.
 
Old Witch

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For somebody with 34 TT, even 100mg/w is a blast by your standards. I don't define anything with moving goalposts. And it's odd you would do something like that with TRT, which you insist should be administered so ethically. So you are willing to redefine the definition of my TRT dose based on my size, which you don't actually know.

This is comedy.

The goalposts don’t move. A blast is a blast. This is why you’re incidental. It doesn’t matter what your numbers are. You’re a beginner. Period.
 
Old Witch

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The goalpost for trt is to get you into optimal physiological levels of T.

Optimal is considered top end, 900-1000 (specialty clinics might use 1200)

Above that is medically (by all entities in authority on the subject from the surgeon general to WADA) considered supraphysiological. A blast.

With me so far? Good.

The all effective dose range (remember that word from before?) to get that level is 50-200mg/wk and 100% of men will fall into that range for their proper trt dosage.

If you are consistently at a blast, you will hurt yourself, it does not matter if you are huge or not, veteran or not. The guys who are constantly on, are not always blasting, and only between competitions do they cruise high, they ALL come down to normal levels for their breaks, and the ones who b&c and aren’t on trt take BREAKS coming off entirely.


You have much to learn grasshopper.
 
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PHOTOSnFIBERS

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The goalpost for trt is to get you into optimal physiological levels of T.

Optimal is considered top end, 900-1000 (specialty clinics might use 1200)

Above that is medically (by all entities in authority on the subject from the surgeon general to WADA) considered supraphysiological. A blast.

With me so far? Good.

The all effective dose range (remember that word from before?) to get that level is 50-200mg/wk and 100% of men will fall into that range for their proper trt dosage.

If you are consistently at a blast, you will hurt yourself, it does not matter if you are huge or not, veteran or not. The guys who are constantly on, are not always blasting, and only between competitions do they cruise high, they ALL come down to normal levels for their breaks, and the ones who b&c and aren’t on trt take BREAKS coming off entirely.


You have much to learn grasshopper.
Ok so now i get it, you think a "beginner" should be listening to you because you know more. Well like i said, i think my doc knows more than you. It's pretty simple.
 
Old Witch

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Ok so now i get it, you think a "beginner" should be listening to you because you know more. Well like i said, i think my doc knows more than you. It's pretty simple.
No, I think a beginner should not take 300mg and call it a cruise. A beginners first blast/cycle should be 250mg in my eyes.

There are growth levels for every relative dosage range, skipping upward in doses early on is a good way to miss out on easy gains.

It’s that simple if you want.
 
Old Witch

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If you’re going to use the damn **** then you need to fucking learn how to use it or you’re going to kill yourself with it, and not even look good.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

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And yeah, to answer your question, 1-T Cyp.

Least sides for the most effects. No gyno, no bloat, very little acne, no shedding. More anabolic than Deca, less anabolic than tren.
 
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If you’re going to use the damn **** then you need to fucking learn how to use it or you’re going to kill yourself with it, and not even look good.
OK so let me get this straight. 300mg would be a cruse for a HUGE guy, and that's ok, it won't "kill" them. But bc you think im a beginner and i have never used juice, that same dose is magically bad for my health? Those goalposts must be very light for such a Yuge guy ike you.

Just FYI im not a beginner with lifting, just with exogenous hormones. And from what i have read, the longer you do roids the more likely they are to cause you health problems. So by that logic, 300mg/w would be less risky for me then a "huge" guy who's been juicing for a decade, regardless how much muscle we each carry.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

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OK so let me get this straight. 300mg would be a cruse for a HUGE guy, and that's ok, it won't "kill" them. But bc you think im a beginner and i have never used juice, that same dose is magically bad for my health? Those goalposts must be very light for such a Yuge guy ike you.

Just FYI im not a beginner with lifting, just with exogenous hormones. And from what i have read, the longer you do roids the more likely they are to cause you health problems. So by that logic, 300mg/w would be less risky for me then a "huge" guy who's been juicing for a decade, regardless how much muscle we each carry.
No it will kill them. They’re trying to stay huge. And yes, even more risky. You have to do regular health maintenance. I am not sure you are even understanding what that would be.

As a beginner to hormones, this is a blast. I’m not sure I’m getting through to you. How long you’ve been lifting has never been the issue. You are still a beginner. We’re talking about steroids.
 
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jrock645

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OP, seriously the only thing anyone around here cares about is safety. Theres no judgmental bs of asking about current lifts, training split etc and arbitrarily trying to tell someone not to take steroids based on that. Safety is paramount. The advice may not be what you wanna hear but id advise against being so dismissive. Nobody here has an agenda.
 
Old Witch

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Anyone who is a beginner to steroids ought to watch the Anabolic Doc channel on YouTube for a dose of reality before they go trying to become Superman. You can’t just walk around with supraphysiological levels of test 24/7/365 and get away with it scot free. You absolutely will have health problems, and actually relatively soon.


He doesn’t know everything, or get it 100% right, because he isn’t one of us actually using it, he can only go off what he’s told. Just like any other doctor. He is just one of the few very knowledgeable ones.
 
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PHOTOSnFIBERS

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OP, seriously the only thing anyone around here cares about is safety. Theres no judgmental bs of asking about current lifts, training split etc and arbitrarily trying to tell someone not to take steroids based on that. Safety is paramount. The advice may not be what you wanna hear but id advise against being so dismissive. Nobody here has an agenda.
Ok so let me get a few things straight for the record. If 300mg/w is a fairly standard cruse for a pro BB, then you guys also think they are risking their life on their cruse and would recommend they lower the dose if health were the only issue? What's healthy for a human body doesn't change based on how much muscle they have, if anything a long time user is more at risk than i, just from the time factor.

I guess what my POV is, im willing to take a certain amount of risk. Not a 2g blast per week risk, but 300mg when the normal high dose is 200mg? Yea, a 50% increase isn't what i call crazy. If by chance my bloods in a few months show really bad numbers then i will lower the dose, real simple. Im simply saying other than that, im perfectly fine having a TT level of 1500.
 
Old Witch

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Ok so let me get a few things straight for the record. If 300mg/w is a fairly standard cruse for a pro BB, then you guys also think they are risking their life on their cruse and would recommend they lower the dose if health were the only issue? What's healthy for a human body doesn't change based on how much muscle they have, if anything a long time user is more at risk than i, just from the time factor.

I guess what my POV is, im willing to take a certain amount of risk. Not a 2g blast per week risk, but 300mg when the normal high dose is 200mg? Yea, a 50% increase isn't what i call crazy. If by chance my bloods in a few months show really bad numbers then i will lower the dose, real simple. Im simply saying other than that, im perfectly fine having a TT level of 1500.
It wouldn’t be a fairly standard cruise. It would be something to bridge between two contests timed fairly closely. It would be considered a risk. But necessary at their elite professional level. There is money involved so health is not the priority.

The standard cruise is a standard trt dose, usually a higher one, but still not over 1200ng/dL


Taking a gram a week for a couple months then coming down to 150mg a week for most of the year is far and away healthier than taking a 300mg/wk dose for life.

On 300mg a week you will likely be giving blood a couple times a year, BP will go up to hypertensive levels after awhile, that will need medication, heart issues will begin to arise, left ventricular hypertrophy will onset, lipid values will need constant monitoring... it would be a pain in the ass, and for what? The dose stops being effective to grow after a few months. Staying high for zero reason whatsoever, getting sides for nothing. And since you only got the one growth period from it, there’s not a lot of extra muscle mass to keep making it necessary to use such a high dose, nor is it a professional priority.
 
RickyBlobby

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My cruise is 100mg/ week. That puts my TT at 1000 ng/dL in a trough. 200mg and I have 24/7 muscle fullness and shed fat like crazy. 300mg is basically a full cycle for me.

Also, at 100mg my H&H is almost out of range. So at 300mg I guarantee my risk of a heart attack is way higher than I feel comfortable with.
 
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OP you need to stop blindly trusting your doctor when everyone else is telling you he is a hack. You don't want to listen to knowledgeable guys who have been doing this for decades? That's your loss, but at the very least go get a second opinion from a real doctor (not a trt clinic).
 
Old Witch

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OP you need to stop blindly trusting your doctor when everyone else is telling you he is a hack. You don't want to listen to knowledgeable guys who have been doing this for decades? That's your loss, but at the very least go get a second opinion from a real doctor (not a trt clinic).
It’s not even a question of that, it’s a question of there being a proper use for supraphysiological dosages of test, and being on that high all year without any intention of changing the dosage at any point is fucking stupid. For anyone. Pro or not, big, small, whatever.

It just isn’t how to use steroids. Just isn’t. Is not.
 
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OP you need to stop blindly trusting your doctor when everyone else is telling you he is a hack. You don't want to listen to knowledgeable guys who have been doing this for decades? That's your loss, but at the very least go get a second opinion from a real doctor (not a trt clinic).
Ok so lets use Ricky as an example. he says...

My cruise is 100mg/ week. That puts my TT at 1000 ng/dL in a trough. 200mg and I have 24/7 muscle fullness and shed fat like crazy. 300mg is basically a full cycle for me. Also, at 100mg my H&H is almost out of range. So at 300mg I guarantee my risk of a heart attack is way higher than I feel comfortable with.
So this is a good one. So, are you telling me that every person who naturally has a 1000ng/dl has high H/H? While that natural level of TT is rare, there are people out there with it. I don't believe every one of them has terrible vitals. That tells me the reaction to any particular hormone level is greatly genetic and subjective.

He may have heart risks at 300mg, that's not necessarily true for everybody else. I will see when my next bloods are drawn and go from there. Some people are naturally already at risk without any exogenous hormones, some are the opposite.
 
Smont

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But it is a blast. 300mg is a blast. Not a great one. But it is definitely not a cruise unless you’re HUGE.

Are you huge?
It can definitely be a cruise dose. It's not trt dose. A cruise is what you use to maintain your gains, trt is trt.
 
Smont

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And 300 is not trt for 99% of ppl. I know ppl on 200mg who are far above the normal range.
 
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I'd take 150 a week and stock pile the rest
Finally some one beat me to it! Everyone complaining about the dosage should be greatful. So you always have enough on hand to blast a bit. You want to buy black market.. your playing with your life..
 
RickyBlobby

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Ok so lets use Ricky as an example. he says...


So this is a good one. So, are you telling me that every person who naturally has a 1000ng/dl has high H/H? While that natural level of TT is rare, there are people out there with it. I don't believe every one of them has terrible vitals. That tells me the reaction to any particular hormone level is greatly genetic and subjective.

He may have heart risks at 300mg, that's not necessarily true for everybody else. I will see when my next bloods are drawn and go from there. Some people are naturally already at risk without any exogenous hormones, some are the opposite.
You’re assuming you are gonna be in the 10% group you are creating. But odds are you are going to be like the 90% who will run into problems at this dose
 
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It can definitely be a cruise dose. It's not trt dose. A cruise is what you use to maintain your gains, trt is trt.
I think trying to define a number with these words is silly. People range from zero naturally (hypogonadal) to who knows, maybe 2000, naturally, maybe more, without exogenous T. There are freaks out there who produce way more than the average person, and some who produce way less.

There is bound to be as much variation in our genetic responses to differing hormone levels as well. There are people who would grow tits if they spent 6mo at 1000ng/dl, and i have heard pro BB say they took typical pro BB gear (2-3g) and never needed an AI. When i had my bloods done i was low on TT, free T, estr, DHT, and DHEA. We will see what 300mg does to me. I have heard guys at my local sarms store say then needed an AI for LGD alone, i had no estr sides at all stacking LGD, YK11 and Rad140.

Making blanket statements with anything relatively moderat is stupid. My next bloods may show some scary markers and if they do, i will alter my dose. But they may show everything healthy and if so, im gonna enjoy the same dose im on now, regardless what other people call it, TRT, blast, cruise, it's meaningless.
 
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You’re assuming you are gonna be in the 10% group you are creating. But odds are you are going to be like the 90% who will run into problems at this dose
Well im not betting my house on it, but if that's the case, then im ok with a higher dose than most people. As i mentioned above, i tried a tripple sarm stack in the last year and had no sides at all, while other people i know who buy from the same store, had to use an AI for less than i took.

There is a range to this, we are not all exactly the same, i just find it odd that people are making blanket statements and it's the "new guy" who's begging for reason. I believe im less prone to negative sides, if im not then ok, but why be pessimistic about it? I think some people just don't like the idea of somebody getting away with a "cruse" dose because they can't.
 
Smont

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Nothing you said is revelant to my comment. All I was saying is a cruise and trt are 2 different things. Stop rambling
 
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And 300 is not trt for 99% of ppl. I know ppl on 200mg who are far above the normal range.
What is normal for one guy isn't normal for another. If somebody takes 300mg/w and their body doesn't react poorly, it means their body doesn't see it as abnormal, at least not enough to crash and burn for it.
 
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Nothing you said is revelant to my comment. All I was saying is a cruise and trt are 2 different things. Stop rambling
LOL captain obvious. But no you don't get to define those words for the rest of the world. Explanation rejected.
 
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jrock645

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LOL captain obvious. But no you don't get to define those words for the rest of the world. Explanation rejected.

I guess im lost on why youre here posting and asking for input if youre going to arbitrarily reject anything that doesnt confirm your own beliefs.
 
NoAddedHmones

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What is normal for one guy isn't normal for another. If somebody takes 300mg/w and their body doesn't react poorly, it means their body doesn't see it as abnormal, at least not enough to crash and burn for it.
Well the whole point of the physiological range is to capture these differences in people to give a min and max range. What is so hard in understanding about that?
 

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