Unanswered Which compounds have the least andro sides?

PHOTOSnFIBERS

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So just a preface, I just turned 41 last week. Have never used anything stronger than sarms which i tried a couple times in the last half a year or so. Im on TRT as of this week. My doc has me on a fairly high dose of 300mg/week T cyp, over the next few months i will see if i get any sides from it. I don't have any definitive plan to use anything else but i also never say never.

I was just curious if there were any, which compounds offer the least sides like gyno, water retention, ect? Even water retention wouldn't be all that bad as once i stop it would go away, but more permanent things like gyno (without surgery anyway) i definitely don't want, and im already dealing with that possibility with Test, so the last thing i would do is add another source.

I believe im asking what has the best/lowest androgenic ratio? I think that's the correct term.
 
Bigmatt57

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I would recommend Epistane, definitely stronger than most sarms. And you definitely won’t to worry about any estrogen problems. Adds some nice muscle on you while really drying you out.
 
Bigmatt57

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I would recommend Epistane, definitely stronger than most sarms. And you definitely won’t to worry about any estrogen problems. Adds some nice muscle on you while really drying you out.
 
Old Witch

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I would recommend Epistane, definitely stronger than most sarms. And you definitely won’t to worry about any estrogen problems. Adds some nice muscle on you while really drying you out.
Yeah, you’ll go bald instead. Could grow a sick beard to make up for it though.
 

bradleyt1

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So just a preface, I just turned 41 last week. Have never used anything stronger than sarms which i tried a couple times in the last half a year or so. Im on TRT as of this week. My doc has me on a fairly high dose of 300mg/week T cyp, over the next few months i will see if i get any sides from it. I don't have any definitive plan to use anything else but i also never say never.

I was just curious if there were any, which compounds offer the least sides like gyno, water retention, ect? Even water retention wouldn't be all that bad as once i stop it would go away, but more permanent things like gyno (without surgery anyway) i definitely don't want, and im already dealing with that possibility with Test, so the last thing i would do is add another source.

I believe im asking what has the best/lowest androgenic ratio? I think that's the correct term.
Damn bro your doc just started you off at 300mg per week of cypionate? That’s a fairly high dose. Curious what was his reasoning for starting their? Most likely your levels are gonna be way over and he will probably cut you down which sucks. Unless you shoot less prior to your labs
 

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Damn bro your doc just started you off at 300mg per week of cypionate? That’s a fairly high dose. Curious what was his reasoning for starting their? Most likely your levels are gonna be way over and he will probably cut you down which sucks. Unless you shoot less prior to your labs
Damn bro your doc just started you off at 300mg per week of cypionate? That’s a fairly high dose. Curious what was his reasoning for starting their? Most likely your levels are gonna be way over and he will probably cut you down which sucks. Unless you shoot less prior to your labs
Well all my numbers were super low so im guessing even the slightest dose will fully shut me down, or at least hes assuming so.

I will get bloods after 4 or 5 mo so maybe he just wanted to get me feeling some pep for now and adjust it as i go.

And i will see how i feel in 3 mo. If im doing great and want to stay on 300 i will half dose the last 2 weeks or so. But if my next bloods show real danger i will keep it lowered on my own so, not worth dyin over.

With all that sait i think my clinic is just a very liberal bunch who want people to have freedom to do their own thing. I
 
Old Witch

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Any dose would suppress you anyway. That’s how it works. Suppression has nothing to do with why 300mg cyp a week is never trt dosage for anyone ever.

But I’m guessing, now that I see your doc has bloods set for 4 or 5 months, you’re getting a free blast, and he’s going to rein it in after about 4 months.
 

bradleyt1

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Well all my numbers were super low so im guessing even the slightest dose will fully shut me down, or at least hes assuming so.

I will get bloods after 4 or 5 mo so maybe he just wanted to get me feeling some pep for now and adjust it as i go.

And i will see how i feel in 3 mo. If im doing great and want to stay on 300 i will half dose the last 2 weeks or so. But if my next bloods show real danger i will keep it lowered on my own so, not worth dyin over.

With all that sait i think my clinic is just a very liberal bunch who want people to have freedom to do their own thing. I
What clinic do you use? Is it out of Florida?
 
Chados

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Superdrol, anavar, epistane, Tbol, primo, halodrol are some that are quite friendly with the androgenic sides
 
xR1pp3Rx

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I think you can add Hexadrol to that list as well.. its pretty damn mild.
 
Chados

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I think you can add Hexadrol to that list as well.. its pretty damn mild.

Isn't hexadrol almost useless though? Some sarms should even be stronger. Don't get me wrong, safety is amazing but if you go down that route you want your bang for the buck
 

Mathb33

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Stop it with that 300mg trt script already. You can tell us you’re just wanting to go 300mg weekly as a cruise.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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Isn't hexadrol almost useless though? Some sarms should even be stronger. Don't get me wrong, safety is amazing but if you go down that route you want your bang for the buck
as a rep for a company who sells this.. I can tell you, there is a lot of people out there who dont want that much bang to their buck.. its not for me really but you would be blown away by how many people ask about hex just because its so mild.
 
Chados

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as a rep for a company who sells this.. I can tell you, there is a lot of people out there who dont want that much bang to their buck.. its not for me really but you would be blown away by how many people ask about hex just because its so mild.

Didnt mean to drag you in to the fire lol. Yeah I guess it can be nice to kinda feel what a steroid does go you and as a first cycle I'm sure you can add some definition
 
xR1pp3Rx

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Didnt mean to drag you in to the fire lol. Yeah I guess it can be nice to kinda feel what a steroid does go you and as a first cycle I'm sure you can add some definition
lol no worries. we are ALL friends in iron, plus i got really thick skin.
 

PHOTOSnFIBERS

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Stop it with that 300mg trt script already. You can tell us you’re just wanting to go 300mg weekly as a cruise.
I set up an appointment with the clinic, showed up to talk with my doc, explained what my symptoms were, not knowing if it was actually due to low T. Came back a week later, got blood taken, returned 2 weeks later to hear results. My doc wrote me a script for 300mg/week.

You can impose your expectations all you want just because my doc doesn't dose like yours or the next guys, still doesn't invalidate my TRT. There's hardly a standard that isn't arbitrary so please don't pretend your line in the sand is better than the one my doc has.

Im just here discussing ideas and trying to do so in a cordial manner, if you can't be polite feel free to ignore the thread. Some of us actually want to discuss things we find useful or interesting.
 

PHOTOSnFIBERS

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lol no worries. we are ALL friends in iron, plus i got really thick skin.
LOL im going to have to adopt that skin too. Im also busy on a photography forum and it's pretty cut throat there, i thought maybe A/M would be different but nope. I guess there's always somebody who thinks they know you better than you.
 

jrock645

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LOL im going to have to adopt that skin too. Im also busy on a photography forum and it's pretty cut throat there, i thought maybe A/M would be different but nope. I guess there's always somebody who thinks they know you better than you.
People here are way easier to get along with than on many boards I’ve been on. By far.
 
Old Witch

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LOL im going to have to adopt that skin too. Im also busy on a photography forum and it's pretty cut throat there, i thought maybe A/M would be different but nope. I guess there's always somebody who thinks they know you better than you.
It’s not about knowing YOU. It’s about knowing the facts as they pertain to a situation in which you are a part. You are incidental in the equation. Barely a factor.
 

PHOTOSnFIBERS

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It’s not about knowing YOU. It’s about knowing the facts as they pertain to a situation in which you are a part. You are incidental in the equation. Barely a factor.
But everybody is a factor, because our bodies are all different. Right? Not everybody reacts the same to a dose or a compound or even a training stimulus. So in the context of the conversations i have been in, that should be relevant. You seem to consider yourself knowledgeable in the field of hormones and the human body, but you seem to also want to lump all of us into one group, as if we are all identical. We are not.

If i am wrong and we are all identical, please correct me, and point us to the appropriate documentation...
 
Old Witch

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But everybody is a factor, because our bodies are all different. Right? Not everybody reacts the same to a dose or a compound or even a training stimulus. So in the context of the conversations i have been in, that should be relevant. You seem to consider yourself knowledgeable in the field of hormones and the human body, but you seem to also want to lump all of us into one group, as if we are all identical. We are not.

If i am wrong and we are all identical, please correct me, and point us to the appropriate documentation...

You’re mistaking minor nuances for overall effects. It is true there is not one dose that guarantees a certain hormone level. However there are ranges of dosages which are guaranteed for all men to be above or far and away beyond normal hormone levels. Having hormone levels which are far above the upper level is considered to be a health hazard and only an unethical physician would prescribe such a dose and maintain those levels.

Slightly above the high marker, is questionably ethical, but so far allowable, 300mg a week will get ANYONE far beyond that. It would be considered quite unethical to maintain that dosage.
 
Old Witch

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And don’t get me wrong, higher dosed cruising does have its place... when you’re 265+lbs at 10%BF or less trying to keep it that way.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Probably would be worth it in the long term to let your doc know you were on SARMs a the time of your bloods and had used it in the months prior, with 1.5 months off in between with no PCT.

To really understand how your HPTA is functioning you need to be off everything for at least 5 elimination half lifes of each compound and then get bloods done. No need to get mad for me posting this, at the end of the day its your long term health in the balance not mine.
 

NGtrains

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Superdrol, anavar, epistane, Tbol, primo, halodrol are some that are quite friendly with the androgenic sides
Are these ran the same as a SARM would be? Running my first cycle of SARMs now and just doing my research for the future
 
RickyBlobby

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bro you need to realize this world is full of assholes and not let **** get to you. Especially on the internet, if not you are gonna stay offended.
 
Old Witch

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Are these ran the same as a SARM would be? Running my first cycle of SARMs now and just doing my research for the future
Sort of, each one has its own effective dosage range and cycle length limits.

Primo can be run as long as any other injectable, even the oral version. AED: 300-900mg+/wk inj.

Anavar can be used for up to three months consecutively at median doses, 40-50mg. 100mg is a six week all-effective dose.

Hdrol and Tbol can be used for about two months. AED: Hdrol 100mg, Tbol 50mg

Superdrol, epistane, ought to be run for six weeks or less. AED: Superdrol 20mg, epistane 45mg

The effect onset for almost all of these as orals is less than one week. And they will be stronger effects than any sarm.
 
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Old Witch

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For the record, an all-effective dose (AED) is a dosage which is guaranteed to provide at least a minimal effect for 100% of users.

Contrast that with Sarms LGD whose AED is 20mg and Ostarine whose AED is 30-40mg, onset of effect is six weeks and run time is around 12 weeks.
 
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NGtrains

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For the record, an all-effective dose (AED) is a dosage which is guaranteed to provide at least a minimal effect for 100% of users.

Contrast that with Sarms LGD whose AED is 20mg and Ostarine whose AED is 30-40mg, onset of effect is six weeks and run time is around 12 weeks.
Thanks for all the information. Been following your recomp thread as well
 

NGtrains

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Sort of, each one has its own effective dosage range and cycle length limits.

Primo can be run as long as any other injectable, even the oral version. AED: 300-900mg+/wk inj.

Anavar can be used for up to three months consecutively at median doses, 40-50mg. 100mg is a six week all-effective dose.

Hdrol and Tbol can be used for about two months. AED: Hdrol 100mg, Tbol 50mg

Superdrol, epistane, ought to be run for six weeks or less. AED: Superdrol 20mg, epistane 45mg

The effect onset for almost all of these as orals is less than one week. And they will be stronger effects than any sarm.
How would PCT differ from a cycle of SARMs?
 
Old Witch

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How would PCT differ from a cycle of SARMs?
Well...

A nice long cycle of injectable primo solo or stacked with a proper test base is going to leave you pretty well shut down, so the pct for that would be a proper six weeks of nolva and clomid, a little hcg to kick it off probably, etc.

Anavar solo at 50mg for up to three months.,, yeah there’s a lot of debate depending on who you talk to about pct for this, Doc Rand McClane says a young guy should bounce right back upon cessation of the drug, a lot of pros say the same thing... others don’t.

Around here the usual four weeks of nolva 40/20/20/10 would probably be recommended for just about any of the oral only cycles.
 

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You’re mistaking minor nuances for overall effects. It is true there is not one dose that guarantees a certain hormone level. However there are ranges of dosages which are guaranteed for all men to be above or far and away beyond normal hormone levels. Having hormone levels which are far above the upper level is considered to be a health hazard and only an unethical physician would prescribe such a dose and maintain those levels.

Slightly above the high marker, is questionably ethical, but so far allowable, 300mg a week will get ANYONE far beyond that. It would be considered quite unethical to maintain that dosage.
Well at least you got it out there, the crux of your posts are you don't like my Doc. You think he's unethical bc he doesn't does the way you think he should. And, nothing is guaranteed, people differ with how much SHBG they have and how much they aromatize. If both of those happen to be high, vs somebody else who happens to have both low, there can be a drastic difference in free T with the same dose.

So i guess you also think the Docs of pro BB are unethical? If somebody is getting T for their cruise or base, and they are that big, surely the Doc knows what they are up to and still gives them "TrT". I welcome the opinions even if i don't agree with them, but like i said before, i'll take the opinions of my Doc rather than some random guy on a forum.

A/M should offer a warning to new posters that the ethics police is patrolling here.
 

PHOTOSnFIBERS

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Are these ran the same as a SARM would be? Running my first cycle of SARMs now and just doing my research for the future
Unfortunately i didn't get bloods before my sarms to know FOR SURE, but there's a lot of people out there with blood work done with them. The prevailing wisdom i have heard is sarms are far less supressive than real gear, although it depends on the dose. Some people have some real shutdown by running super high doses, i personally didn't but that info is out there too.
 
hairygrandpa

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T-bol.
 
Old Witch

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Well at least you got it out there, the crux of your posts are you don't like my Doc. You think he's unethical bc he doesn't does the way you think he should. And, nothing is guaranteed, people differ with how much SHBG they have and how much they aromatize. If both of those happen to be high, vs somebody else who happens to have both low, there can be a drastic difference in free T with the same dose.

So i guess you also think the Docs of pro BB are unethical? If somebody is getting T for their cruise or base, and they are that big, surely the Doc knows what they are up to and still gives them "TrT". I welcome the opinions even if i don't agree with them, but like i said before, i'll take the opinions of my Doc rather than some random guy on a forum.

A/M should offer a warning to new posters that the ethics police is patrolling here.
Not at all, actually, I rather think that you are simply uninformed, lying to us, and have a world of crap ahead of you.
 
hairygrandpa

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Its an awesome compound. Slow and steady gains but very few sides -if any.
 

muchstronger2

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So just a preface, I just turned 41 last week. Have never used anything stronger than sarms which i tried a couple times in the last half a year or so. Im on TRT as of this week. My doc has me on a fairly high dose of 300mg/week T cyp, over the next few months i will see if i get any sides from it. I don't have any definitive plan to use anything else but i also never say never.

I was just curious if there were any, which compounds offer the least sides like gyno, water retention, ect? Even water retention wouldn't be all that bad as once i stop it would go away, but more permanent things like gyno (without surgery anyway) i definitely don't want, and im already dealing with that possibility with Test, so the last thing i would do is add another source.

I believe im asking what has the best/lowest androgenic ratio? I think that's the correct term.
You asked which compounds has the least androgenic sides, and you go on to list gyno and water retention as what you want to avoid.

These sides are not signs of androgenicity.

Androgen sides: head hair loss, hair growth, deepening of the voice, thickening of sperm, libido increase.

So it’s not really clear what your goal is in the end
 
Old Witch

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LOL im lying? About what?
Having a particularly unethical doctor. I’m not the one who decides what is and isn’t medically ethical. Test levels above 1500 (and especially above 1900) in trough will absolutely get him sued if you happen to unexpectedly die. If your next of kin or insurance provider is smart, that is.

Either this is all you, which is fine but you need to understand what you’re actually doing so you can get the most bang out of it while also not ending your life within the decade... Or you’re misunderstanding what the doc’s intentions are. If that’s the case, you’re getting a nice free blast before he reins in the level later, as I said before. A lot of doctors do that, just not ever this high. Ever. Not even professionals. So that’s why I question it.

What an actual HRT specialist would actually do for a (likely retiring) pro bodybuilder is give 250mg a week and 50-100mg Deca Durabolin. Possibly anavar as well. What they wouldn’t do is go above those dosages. For legal reasons. Ethics are a legal issue, not my opinion.

It would be up to the patient to take a lower dose, save the extra up for a blast, or else purchase for a blast from an UGL.
 

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You asked which compounds has the least androgenic sides, and you go on to list gyno and water retention as what you want to avoid.

These sides are not signs of androgenicity.

Androgen sides: head hair loss, hair growth, deepening of the voice, thickening of sperm, libido increase.

So it’s not really clear what your goal is in the end
Yes i could have been more clear, i was just throwing stuff out randomly. Although in my defense, if you google the phrase "androgenic side effects", the following list is the first thing on my screen.

  • weight gain.
  • mild acne.
  • mood changes and increased aggression.
  • male pattern baldness.
  • breast development.
  • problems with urine flow (older men).
But im not going to put weight on Google as you seem to be more in line with my understanding. I will generalize it to "sides", be it andro or estro based ones.
 

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Having a particularly unethical doctor. I’m not the one who decides what is and isn’t medically ethical. Test levels above 1500 (and especially above 1900) in trough will absolutely get him sued if you happen to unexpectedly die. If your next of kin or insurance provider is smart, that is.

Either this is all you, which is fine but you need to understand what you’re actually doing so you can get the most bang out of it while also not ending your life within the decade... Or you’re misunderstanding what the doc’s intentions are. If that’s the case, you’re getting a nice free blast before he reins in the level later, as I said before. A lot of doctors do that, just not ever this high. Ever. Not even professionals. So that’s why I question it.

What an actual HRT specialist would actually do for a (likely retiring) pro bodybuilder is give 250mg a week and 50-100mg Deca Durabolin. Possibly anavar as well. What they wouldn’t do is go above those dosages. For legal reasons. Ethics are a legal issue, not my opinion.

It would be up to the patient to take a lower dose, save the extra up for a blast, or else purchase for a blast from an UGL.
Well i don't see how that can be a lie if i actually believe my POV. I think maybe there's a cultural barrier here, if in a less common form of that word. Im not familiar with the AAS culture at all, im not familiar with this forum, and im not familiar with a typical doc's involvement in this stuff.

But i think that's a two way street. In a way it gives me a better non-bias perspective. Maybe my doc knows something you don't, he does afterall have access to all my blood info, as well as my dexa scan and my past med records. Either way, i don't see what he's doing as unethical. If i had a problem with that dose and was worried, i would let him know, or just inject half the dose and throw the rest out.

But this should be an easy conversation if you are right. There must be something written, some law, some established medical standard, for that 250mg or less dose. If not, you are simply stating that some arbitrary number is the ethical limit and we are chasing our tail here.

I don't really care what most docs do, popularity doesn't prove it's right. If there's medical info or peer reviewed info proving a 300mg dose is unethical, simply point me to it. I have to assume there isn't or you would have shared it already. And i understand what you are saying, that my doc should know better even if i don't. My point though is i haven't seen enough evidence to convince me 300mg is dangerous, and i've spent many hours over the last month researching doses.

It's kinda like believing in Jesus, if there were "proof", there would be no discussion, we would all just believe.
 

muchstronger2

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Yes i could have been more clear, i was just throwing stuff out randomly. Although in my defense, if you google the phrase "androgenic side effects", the following list is the first thing on my screen.

  • weight gain.
  • mild acne.
  • mood changes and increased aggression.
  • male pattern baldness.
  • breast development.
  • problems with urine flow (older men).
But im not going to put weight on Google as you seem to be more in line with my understanding. I will generalize it to "sides", be it andro or estro based ones.
If Google could be blindly trusted with selecting the accurate and relevant information each time you need it, there wouldn’t be thousands of pages of forums discussing the intricacies of anabolics
 
Old Witch

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Well i don't see how that can be a lie if i actually believe my POV. I think maybe there's a cultural barrier here, if in a less common form of that word. Im not familiar with the AAS culture at all, im not familiar with this forum, and im not familiar with a typical doc's involvement in this stuff.

But i think that's a two way street. In a way it gives me a better non-bias perspective. Maybe my doc knows something you don't, he does afterall have access to all my blood info, as well as my dexa scan and my past med records. Either way, i don't see what he's doing as unethical. If i had a problem with that dose and was worried, i would let him know, or just inject half the dose and throw the rest out.

But this should be an easy conversation if you are right. There must be something written, some law, some established medical standard, for that 250mg or less dose. If not, you are simply stating that some arbitrary number is the ethical limit and we are chasing our tail here.

I don't really care what most docs do, popularity doesn't prove it's right. If there's medical info or peer reviewed info proving a 300mg dose is unethical, simply point me to it. I have to assume there isn't or you would have shared it already. And i understand what you are saying, that my doc should know better even if i don't. My point though is i haven't seen enough evidence to convince me 300mg is dangerous, and i've spent many hours over the last month researching doses.

It's kinda like believing in Jesus, if there were "proof", there would be no discussion, we would all just believe.

As I said before, the ethical implications lie around the basis of the actual serum testosterone level. There is a medically accepted safe range, considered normal. Top limit is 900-1200ng/dL. For a doctor to allow you to be at nearly double that in trough would be considered unethical by any legal body you could imagine.

For a doc to allow you to be 200-300 ng/dL above the limit (as specialty clinics might do) is playing with fire, but questionably ethical. He might not get into trouble doing that, or he might. And even then, you’re still supposed to tailor your own dose down for bloods and lie about it. Again, doubling that limit which is what 300mg a week is going to do... he can’t ethically let that go on forever. He absolutely must lower it. He could lose his practice, lose money, lots of issues.
 

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As I said before, the ethical implications lie around the basis of the actual serum testosterone level. There is a medically accepted safe range, considered normal. Top limit is 900-1200ng/dL. For a doctor to allow you to be at nearly double that in trough would be considered unethical by any legal body you could imagine.

For a doc to allow you to be 200-300 ng/dL above the limit (as specialty clinics might do) is playing with fire, but questionably ethical. He might not get into trouble doing that, or he might. And even then, you’re still supposed to tailor your own dose down for bloods and lie about it. Again, doubling that limit which is what 300mg a week is going to do... he can’t ethically let that go on forever. He absolutely must lower it. He could lose his practice, lose money, lots of issues.
Yes you keep repeating yourself, a "medically accepted range". Accepted by who? Is there documentation of this or am i just supposed to take your word for it? What is this governing body who would go after a doctor? We have had many posts on this now, all saying the same thing, and when i ask for any kind of documentation, you simply repeat yourself.

If i didn't know better, i would think this is just made up. You seem to be so very sure of all this, so one would assume you have seen this all in writing. Right? Any kind of official statement by a governing body? Anything?
 
Kratom267

Kratom267

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Question for OP...are you getting your TRT from a “men’s clinic” or “TRT Clinic”? If so, that’s why your dose is so high! I made the mistake of taking the easy route with a local TRT clinic...it was far too easy. While I genuinely did need TRT, it was very apparent to me that it was a business first and a “worry about your health later” type of place. And it sounds like I’m not the only one.
 

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