When the boss is away.......(CONTEST)

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xjsynx said:
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:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny:
 
bitterplacebo said:
Yeah, bad programming can happen anywhere. With the system stability and uptime, though, I'm going to have to say windows sure does require a lot of attention.
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I dunno, I've been doing this an awful long time, and factoring in everything - ease of use, ease of hiring skilled staff, ease of training new staff, replacement of hardware, ease of installation + initial configuration, tools available, etc I'd rather (and do) deal with windows in a multi-billion dollar environment.
 
EasyEJL said:
Not really. Its just easy to say that, another one of the platitudes with little real data to back it up. Bad programming happens on *nix based systems as well, firefox had more security patches this year for critical security holes than IE did.
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I'm not comparing firefox to IE, I'm comparing *nix to windows. You can leave SCO out of the equation.

The deal with *nix based programmers is they tend not to be entry level noobs left to their own crazy undisciplined programming styles. The deal is that when you're not vendor locked by platform, processor, or even OS, you can choose the OS/Software solution that best fits, allowing you to get away from the 1 pony update express. I run FreeBSD for security applications/appliances, Solaris for web app servers, and linux for back end database / file servers / network servers. I use windows to support and manage windows desktops, and run antivirus apps.

But seriously, if you'd seen all the lousy windows apps and worthless lock/crash non-sense on windows servers and their ilk you'd be sour'd too.

The ONLY time windows works well is in a very close nit, single app environment where 1 windows server does 1 task, and it's isolated from any other combinations of loads.

Windows servers tend to perform very badly when straddled with 10-20 applications/services, while a *nix box of the same hardware configuration hums along without breaking a sweat.

The only performance characteristics where microsoft excells are on complete MS stack optimized loads of SQL/IIS/.NET and you're comparing it to some lousy POS PHP app. (PHP sucks btw).

C# is 'easier' to use, and for web apps much more straight forward, but that doesn't make it a 'better' language because of the vendor reliability crap you have to deal with, not to mention the licensing costs of running windows servers.
 
EasyEJL said:
I dunno, I've been doing this an awful long time, and factoring in everything - ease of use, ease of hiring skilled staff, ease of training new staff, replacement of hardware, ease of installation + initial configuration, tools available, etc I'd rather (and do) deal with windows in a multi-billion dollar environment.
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yeah, that's the good thing as it seems to have an easier learning curve and large audience
 
EasyEJL said:
I dunno, I've been doing this an awful long time, and factoring in everything - ease of use, ease of hiring skilled staff, ease of training new staff, replacement of hardware, ease of installation + initial configuration, tools available, etc I'd rather (and do) deal with windows in a multi-billion dollar environment.
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Dude have you ever replaced a sun box? Yank the disks, yank the smart card, move it one down the rack to the next one, viola, hardware replaced.

Ease of installation: I guess you haven't installed linux in a looong time. 10-15 minutes to a full fledged server / workstation with office apps and all updates in 25. Try that without a slipstreamed windows disk with the latest patches, and still you can't get all the apps installed without some huge management amalgamation software.

As for tools available, you don't need the fine grained app level control when file permissions and selinux work especially well. No execute permission? Well you can't run that!
 
SatireWolf said:
I think the learning curve / cheap labor is the only real benefit. When windows nubz are a dime a dozen, it's pretty darned easy to find an installation monkey.
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I'm speaking for server apps here. I'm not contesting windows/linux on the desktop, there's no contest usability wise. Until OpenOffice rivals MSOffice for ease of use (it's almost there), expandability (visual basic script in excell is ubiquitous in accounting and elsewhere), and overall performance (it's still slow on windows), we'll be stuck with MS.

The ultimate measure of the desktop OS is the office package. Some day soon, MS is going to be sweating blood...
 
SatireWolf said:
Dude have you ever replaced a sun box? Yank the disks, yank the smart card, move it one down the rack to the next one, viola, hardware replaced.
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I have, and the problem was $45,000 for the box. I can afford to stand up 8 windows boxes for the same dollars, with better overall capacity and speed, and then having to reboot one out of a cluster isn't a big deal at all to apply a patch. Sun sucks :)
 
SatireWolf said:
I'm speaking for server apps here. I'm not contesting windows/linux on the desktop, there's no contest usability wise. Until OpenOffice rivals MSOffice for ease of use (it's almost there), expandability (visual basic script in excell is ubiquitous in accounting and elsewhere), and overall performance (it's still slow on windows), we'll be stuck with MS.

The ultimate measure of the desktop OS is the office package. Some day soon, MS is going to be sweating blood...
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Anyways, windows has it's place in the datacenter, I just don't find it especially useful for most application loads.

Unless your running an MS stack for some app your end users HAVE TO HAVE, I don't use it. But I'm also a Lotus Notes lover. Ever unloaded a machine gun on a running MS Exchange server and tried to get it back up and running without backups?

Example, bullets through all the boards in a running Notes server.

Yank data drives, insert in another linux/solaris server. Mount drives, copy the notes installation over (~10 min), rename the new box. Point notes to the old data partition, done. In less than 45 minutes you have a completely operational mail server again.

Can you do that with Exchange?
 
EasyEJL said:
I have, and the problem was $45,000 for the box. I can afford to stand up 8 windows boxes for the same dollars, with better overall capacity and speed, and then having to reboot one out of a cluster isn't a big deal at all to apply a patch. Sun sucks :)
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No no, their 'price' sucks, their hardware is beautiful....

If you can afford it, sun makes for the most rock solid, dependable, manageable data center in the world....

That said, for the same price I can stand up 14 CentOS/Fedora based boxes with the same dollars, and same hardware config as your windows boxes, and have better overall capacity and speed.
 
SatireWolf said:
No no, their 'price' sucks, their hardware is beautiful....

If you can afford it, sun makes for the most rock solid, dependable, manageable data center in the world....

That said, for the same price I can stand up 14 CentOS/Fedora based boxes with the same dollars, and same hardware config as your windows boxes, and have better overall capacity and speed.
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All that said, you CAN and people DO use windows in large data-centers and environments. And you CAN make it reliable with plenty of redundancy. It's just you pay MS for the privilege of ease of initial use and peon grade technicians for hire.

I'd rather spend my money on hardware, quality technicians, and give microsoft the :FUfinger:
 
SatireWolf said:
Anyways, windows has it's place in the datacenter, I just don't find it especially useful for most application loads.

Unless your running an MS stack for some app your end users HAVE TO HAVE, I don't use it. But I'm also a Lotus Notes lover. Ever unloaded a machine gun on a running MS Exchange server and tried to get it back up and running without backups?

Example, bullets through all the boards in a running Notes server.

Yank data drives, insert in another linux/solaris server. Mount drives, copy the notes installation over (~10 min), rename the new box. Point notes to the old data partition, done. In less than 45 minutes you have a completely operational mail server again.

Can you do that with Exchange?
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Basically yes :) although if your datacenter has frequent machine gun issues....

:numbered:

All of the environments i've worked in over the last 15 years have been mixed windows/xnix, and i've always found that it made better business sense to run things on the windows servers, when you take into account all of the details. Staffing really is a critical piece of it in the long term.
 
SatireWolf said:
All that said, you CAN and people DO use windows in large data-centers and environments. And you CAN make it reliable with plenty of redundancy. It's just you pay MS for the privilege of ease of initial use and peon grade technicians for hire.

I'd rather spend my money on hardware, quality technicians, and give microsoft the :FUfinger:
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Of which, those peons you'll need aplenty because something is always breaking in windows land.
 
SatireWolf said:
I'd rather spend my money on hardware, quality technicians, and give microsoft the :FUfinger:
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Have you ever looked at the microsoft partner program? if you become a microsoft certified partner (costs $1500/yr, have to have at least 50 partner point which would require 2 people certified in some MS disciplines, plus at least 3 appropriate customer references) and you get around $500,000 worth of microsoft software for corporate use free. It actually is very less expensive to run microsoft than unix, if you know the ins and outs of MS
 
EasyEJL said:
Basically yes :) although if your datacenter has frequent machine gun issues....

:numbered:

All of the environments i've worked in over the last 15 years have been mixed windows/xnix, and i've always found that it made better business sense to run things on the windows servers, when you take into account all of the details. Staffing really is a critical piece of it in the long term.
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Exchange takes a lot longer to recover than 45 minutes :) Have you ever tried an error recovery on a 2TB mail spool? The result of that gun incident...

But I've had the equivalent happen to Notes boxes before. Dell server, redundant PS bus goes up in smoke (some crazy short), taking out every vital piece of electronics short of the drives (thankfully the scsi bus was fused).

Popped the drives into the box next to it, fired up the notes cd, had a running mail server in 45 minutes, including the very large mail file rebuild (journaled database, didn't take but a few minutes).
 
and we'd better stop talking computer stuff, or we'll have even more people bored and not reading. Here, hows this for some adrenaline

Invalid Link Removed
 
SatireWolf said:
Exchange takes a lot longer to recover than 45 minutes :) Have you ever tried an error recovery on a 2TB mail spool? The result of that gun incident...

But I've had the equivalent happen to Notes boxes before. Dell server, redundant PS bus goes up in smoke (some crazy short), taking out every vital piece of electronics short of the drives (thankfully the scsi bus was fused).

Popped the drives into the box next to it, fired up the notes cd, had a running mail server in 45 minutes, including the very large mail file rebuild (journaled database, didn't take but a few minutes).
Click to expand...

If I get hired at this job I'm looking into, they're going to get a new machine for me to work on with terabyte storage to handle the large amounts of atmospheric data I'll be working on...new hardware always makes me excited...I love the way it smells when you first take it out of packaging...
 
EasyEJL said:
Have you ever looked at the microsoft partner program? if you become a microsoft certified partner (costs $1500/yr, have to have at least 50 partner point which would require 2 people certified in some MS disciplines, plus at least 3 appropriate customer references) and you get around $500,000 worth of microsoft software for corporate use free. It actually is very less expensive to run microsoft than unix, if you know the ins and outs of MS
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Yes, you think we actually pay full price for MS ware?

But you can't run a datacenter on the partner program.
 
bitterplacebo said:
If I get hired at this job I'm looking into, they're going to get a new machine for me to work on with terabyte storage to handle the large amounts of atmospheric data I'll be working on...new hardware always makes me excited...I love the way it smells when you first take it out of packaging...
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Ahhahaah... now that's true geek serum right there. When the smell of fresh electronics burning in gives you a woody!

You know they make 1TB drives now? Hitachi and Seagate. And 500GB disks are on the 1xx dollar range.
 
bitterplacebo said:
If I get hired at this job I'm looking into, they're going to get a new machine for me to work on with terabyte storage to handle the large amounts of atmospheric data I'll be working on...new hardware always makes me excited...I love the way it smells when you first take it out of packaging...
Click to expand...

Make sure they give you plenty of ram, 4GB+. 2GB is minimum.
 
SatireWolf said:
Ahhahaah... now that's true geek serum right there. When the smell of fresh electronics burning in gives you a woody!

You know they make 1TB drives now? Hitachi and Seagate. And 500GB disks are on the 1xx dollar range.
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HITACHI Deskstar 7K1000 HDS721010KLA330 (0A34915) 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

$379.99

but yeah the 500GB is not bad price at all
 
SatireWolf said:
Ahhahaah... now that's true geek serum right there. When the smell of fresh electronics burning in gives you a woody!

You know they make 1TB drives now? Hitachi and Seagate. And 500GB disks are on the 1xx dollar range.
Click to expand...

I'm waiting for christmas-ish to set up a 5-500gb raid 5 SATA array. I may actually do a linux box for it :) as an ISCSI target, just to make my life simpler as far as sharing the space.
 
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