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Which is sort of comical since that was the sole purpose of this anyway...its why ACORN lobbied for such revisions and a crackdown on redlining in the 90's. Subprime didn't become a dirty word until 2007.

Why anyone would include such a statement as proof of anything is asinine. It shows a complete lack of understanding of lending/borrows regulations in the last 15 years.

using a statement like this:

"Subprime loans are three times more likely in low income neighborhoods than in high-income neighborhoods. Subprime loans are five times more likely in black neighborhoods than in white neighborhoods. Homeowners in high-income black areas are twice as likely as homeowners in low-income white areas to have subprime loans."


....leads me to believe you or the person who wrote that didn't know why sub prime (or the revisions in the mid 90's) was created in the first place.

The mere fact they describe all subprime as having higher interest rates is inaccurate. Subprime initially was below prime...hence the name. Chris Dodd got a subprime loan from Countrywide. It didn't' have a higher interest rate. It didn't reset. It didn't have higher fee's. It was a "sweetheart" deal...below prime.

A quote from the link that may clear things up for you since you are apparently confused about the nature of subprime loans:

"A subprime loan is characterized by higher interest rates (sometimes with a low “teaser” introductory rate that then gets adjusted upward1.), high fees and points, pre-payment penalties, balloon payments, and broker solicitation."



1. At least 300 basis points higher than the relevant Treasury yield for a comparable maturity. (See Ira Goldstein (The Reinvestment Fund) and Dan Urevick-Ackelsberg, “Subprime Lending, Mortgage Foreclosures and Race: How Far Have We Come and How Far Have We to Go?” Paper commissioned for the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity at the Ohio State University for its National Convening on Subprime Lending, Foreclosure and Race, October 2-3, 2008.)

“Risky Borrowers or Risky Mortgages? Disaggregating Effects Using Propensity Score Models” Working Paper October 2008. Accessed at
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A quote from the link that may clear things up for you since you are apparently confused about the nature of subprime loans:

"A subprime loan is characterized by higher interest rates (sometimes with a low “teaser” introductory rate that then gets adjusted upward1.), high fees and points, pre-payment penalties, balloon payments, and broker solicitation."



1. At least 300 basis points higher than the relevant Treasury yield for a comparable maturity. (See Ira Goldstein (The Reinvestment Fund) and Dan Urevick-Ackelsberg, “Subprime Lending, Mortgage Foreclosures and Race: How Far Have We Come and How Far Have We to Go?” Paper commissioned for the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity at the Ohio State University for its National Convening on Subprime Lending, Foreclosure and Race, October 2-3, 2008.)

“Risky Borrowers or Risky Mortgages? Disaggregating Effects Using Propensity Score Models” Working Paper October 2008. Accessed at
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yes, and that 300 basis points is based on risks. From your own study, which you and they quote as there still being bias at same credit score

"Lenders say they charge more because African-Americans and Latinos on average have shakier credit histories, which makes lending to them riskier. "

a 650 credit score with minimal history vs a 650 credit score with more history are not the same thing.
 
A quote from the link that may clear things up for you since you are apparently confused about the nature of subprime loans:


I beleive you are the one confused as a subprime loan does not have a universal definition. The basic standard today is a loan for anyone with a FICO score under 640. ARMS, NODOC, NINJA loans, etc...were lumped into subprime into the late 90's as the definition was changed. Originally the term was used for any loan below prime. Chris Dodd, Chairman of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs got a subprime loan from Countrywide several years ago. You think it reset, had high fees and prepayment penalites? No.

"The term subprime has become all too familiar as a result of the current credit crisis, which is attributed in part to the proliferation of subprime loans—loans made on unfavourable terms to borrowers unable to qualify for conventional loans. While researching the term, OED editors were surprised to discover an earlier financial sense, with quite the opposite meaning. The familiar current sense is attested only from 1993, but as early as 1976, subprime was being used to describe an especially desirable type of loan, one which charged less than the prime rate of interest and was offered only to the most reliable commercial borrowers. That meaning is now rare, and in the new sense which has replaced it, it is not the interest rate of the loan which is "less than prime", but the rating of the borrowers themselves."

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I suggest you get your economic information from a source other than a race and ethnicity paper. If the paper is going back to the CRA in 1977 then they should at least get their definitions correct as it was these BELOW prime loans that banks were lending that fueled criticism in the 80's and early 90's for redlining...which also led to financial reform and easing standards.
 
As a complete aside, I find it difficult to digest your points, Luther, because you seamlessly intersperse collected datum with original words. As a result, it is very difficult to ascertain what 'is you', so to speak, and what is the work of others. Less quotations and more original thought, please.

And again: this is meant in no way as an insult, but; rather, to give you a gentle prod in the right direction in regard to effectively communicating. It would seem most brush aside your most pertinent points as, ostensibly, they are not your points [...or even principle to that of...].
 
Interesting blog post:
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Things You Need To Understand #7

"That which does not affect you, you often do not see or understand

In other words, if you are White, 99% of the time Racism doesn’t affect you. Therefore, you may not see nor understand Racism when it happens.

Prsumptuous bullshit. Whites are as much the victims of prejudice and racism as anyone. This statement alone verifies it. How is it possible for whites to not understand racism, yet perfectly possible for a black person to speak on the experience of whites with authority? Blacks are just as unqualified to talk about the 'white experience' as whites are the 'black experience'.

In short, that's called a bullshit double standard, Luther.

If you are a Man, 99% of the time Sexism doesn’t affect you. Therefore, you may not grok Sexist behavior when it occurs nor will you always see Sexism when it is plain to others.

Kind of like when women run around the office shooting their mouths off about men being 'pigs' and detailing their mentrual cycles in the open office, whereas guys run the risk of being fired if they tell a perfectly harmless joke or say a perfectly harmless thing that gets taken the wrong way by some over sensitive femi nazi prowling the halls of the office, pecking after reasons to be offended like a hen in the barnyard after seeds?

Again, bullshit presumptuous double standard. Bullshit on such a level even you should be able to see it, Luther. "You don't know what it's like to be me, but I know exactly what it's like to be you..." It figures, this **** would have to come from a black woman... Two minority groups both niftily disconnected from reality and stuck in worshipping their own status as victim.

Therefore, the next time you feel yourself declaring something “not racist” or “not sexist” or “not offensive”, think about whether you feel that way because you’re not the one on the receiving end of racist, sexist, or offensive behavior/words/actions/images.

So instead of looking at things as objectively as possible we should mire ourselves in subjective bullshit, and from there comes truth. What a line of ****.

This is what it can be like sometimes, when trying to discuss the issue of white privilege with white people. Despite being an obvious institutionalized phenomenon to people of color and even some whites, white privilege is typically denied, and strongly, by most of us.

Please give an example of white privilege.

If one has reaped the benefits of those past injustices (to say nothing of ongoing discrimination in the present) by being elevated, politically, economically and socially above persons of color, for example — which whites as a group surely have been thanks to enslavement, Indian genocide and Jim Crow — then whether or not one did the deed becomes largely a matter of irrelevance.

"Person's of color" were elevated by those same past injustices. Unless of course without my knowledge blacks have been clamoring to get boated back to Africa with a proportionate number of them infected with the AIDS virus so they fit in, leaving their houses, cars, CD players, clothing, state funded educations, etc., all behind.

Of course, what is ultimately overlooked is that denial of one’s privilege itself manifests a form of privilege: namely, the privilege of being able to deny another person’s reality (a reality to which they speak regularly) and suffer no social consequence as a result."

This lady you're quoting talks out of her ass so much it's amazing she hasn't disappeared like your typical fart in the wind.
 
I beleive you are the one confused as a subprime loan does not have a universal definition. The basic standard today is a loan for anyone with a FICO score under 640. ARMS, NODOC, NINJA loans, etc...were lumped into subprime into the late 90's as the definition was changed. Originally the term was used for any loan below prime. Chris Dodd, Chairman of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs got a subprime loan from Countrywide several years ago. You think it reset, had high fees and prepayment penalites? No.

"The term subprime has become all too familiar as a result of the current credit crisis, which is attributed in part to the proliferation of subprime loans—loans made on unfavourable terms to borrowers unable to qualify for conventional loans. While researching the term, OED editors were surprised to discover an earlier financial sense, with quite the opposite meaning. The familiar current sense is attested only from 1993, but as early as 1976, subprime was being used to describe an especially desirable type of loan, one which charged less than the prime rate of interest and was offered only to the most reliable commercial borrowers. That meaning is now rare, and in the new sense which has replaced it, it is not the interest rate of the loan which is "less than prime", but the rating of the borrowers themselves."

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I suggest you get your economic information from a source other than a race and ethnicity paper. If the paper is going back to the CRA in 1977 then they should at least get their definitions correct as it was these BELOW prime loans that banks were lending that fueled criticism in the 80's and early 90's for redlining...which also led to financial reform and easing standards.


"New Deal legislation transformed the industry. The federal government facilitated a vast expansion of home ownership. Mortgages had loan terms of up to thirty years, making monthly payments more affordable; and the down payment shrank to 20% of the home value. The innovative development of federal insurance made lenders more likely to extend credit. However, this expansion of homeownership opportunity was limited largely to white families, through explicit criteria that encouraged all-white neighborhoods in suburban, new housing stock -- and devalued or refused to insure integrated, minority, or old housing stock neighborhoods."

john a. powell and Kathleen M. Graham, “Urban Fragmentation as a Barrier to Equal Opportunity.” Rights at Risk: Equality in an Age of Terrorism by the Citizens’ Commission On Civil Rights. Accessed at Invalid Link Removed

"These racially discriminatory federal guidelines were then absorbed into private market practices.

Refusing to extend credit to low-income communities of color became known as “redlining” due to the red lines drawn on property maps.

Although de jure racial segregation in lending is no longer legal, the patterns and practices of discrimination in housing markets have persisted into the 21st Century.

With little residential or commercial lending from mainstream
banking institutions for decades, isolated communities of color have suffered from high-cost credit institutions that have little competition: payday lenders,
rent-to-own, check cashing, and most recently, subprime home loans. Without competitive credit institutions, families lack information about options, making them prime targets for subprime lending.

In other words, “the old inequality helped made the new inequality possible."

For an overview of structural racism, see Menendian et. al., “A Report to the U.N. Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination on the occasion of its review of the Periodic Report of the United States of America.” (February 2008) Accessed at
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Most subprime loans are a home equity refinancing; only recently did subprime loans become available for first-time home purchases. Subprime loans typically have much higher delinquency and default rates than conventional loans.

Are we all offered the same choice of loans?

"No. In fact, the recent mortgage delivery system has been characterized as separate but unequal:

In most instances the new mortgage delivery system has expanded access to prime mortgages on favorable terms, yet all to often lower-income and minority communities are served by a distinctly different set of organizations offering a distinctively different mix of products.

This dual-delivery system is currently defined less by outright credit denial than by discriminatory terms. In 1999, HUD released a study by the Urban Institute that showed “persistent discrimination among minorities, not just in the rates in which they were rejected, but in the terms of their loans (price discrimination)."

William Apgar et. al. at the Joint Center for Housing Studies, Harvard University. “Credit, Capital and Communities: The Implications of the Changing Mortgage Banking Industry for Community Based Organizations.” March 9, 2004 Report. Accessed at
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"New Deal legislation transformed the industry. The federal government facilitated a vast expansion of home ownership. Mortgages had loan terms of up to thirty years, making monthly payments more affordable; and the down payment shrank to 20% of the home value. The innovative development of federal insurance made lenders more likely to extend credit. However, this expansion of homeownership opportunity was limited largely to white families, through explicit criteria that encouraged all-white neighborhoods in suburban, new housing stock -- and devalued or refused to insure integrated, minority, or old housing stock neighborhoods."

john a. powell and Kathleen M. Graham, “Urban Fragmentation as a Barrier to Equal Opportunity.” Rights at Risk: Equality in an Age of Terrorism by the Citizens’ Commission On Civil Rights. Accessed at Invalid Link Removed

"These racially discriminatory federal guidelines were then absorbed into private market practices.

Refusing to extend credit to low-income communities of color became known as “redlining” due to the red lines drawn on property maps.

Although de jure racial segregation in lending is no longer legal, the patterns and practices of discrimination in housing markets have persisted into the 21st Century.

With little residential or commercial lending from mainstream
banking institutions for decades, isolated communities of color have suffered from high-cost credit institutions that have little competition: payday lenders,
rent-to-own, check cashing, and most recently, subprime home loans. Without competitive credit institutions, families lack information about options, making them prime targets for subprime lending.

In other words, “the old inequality helped made the new inequality possible."

For an overview of structural racism, see Menendian et. al., “A Report to the U.N. Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination on the occasion of its review of the Periodic Report of the United States of America.” (February 2008) Accessed at
Invalid Link Removed

Most subprime loans are a home equity refinancing; only recently did subprime loans become available for first-time home purchases. Subprime loans typically have much higher delinquency and default rates than conventional loans.

Are we all offered the same choice of loans?

"No. In fact, the recent mortgage delivery system has been characterized as separate but unequal:

In most instances the new mortgage delivery system has expanded access to prime mortgages on favorable terms, yet all to often lower-income and minority communities are served by a distinctly different set of organizations offering a distinctively different mix of products.

This dual-delivery system is currently defined less by outright credit denial than by discriminatory terms. In 1999, HUD released a study by the Urban Institute that showed “persistent discrimination among minorities, not just in the rates in which they were rejected, but in the terms of their loans (price discrimination)."

William Apgar et. al. at the Joint Center for Housing Studies, Harvard University. “Credit, Capital and Communities: The Implications of the Changing Mortgage Banking Industry for Community Based Organizations.” March 9, 2004 Report. Accessed at
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In case you missed this the first time....You don't' have to keep copy and pasting the same pdf over and over with the same incomplete history. I know you are learning as you go along Luther so its not a crime to admit you don't know the complete history of lending/borrowing in the last 20-30 years.

I suggest you get your economic information from a source other than a race and ethnicity paper. If the paper is going back to the CRA in 1977 then they should at least get their definitions correct as it was these BELOW prime loans that banks were lending that fueled criticism in the 80's and early 90's for redlining...which also led to financial reform and easing standards.
 
It is all explained here: Invalid Link Removed

This is like the fourth time you posted that piece of **** essay, and it's still a piece of ****. I asked for an example, not 9 pages of meandering pseudo-theosophical bullshit from some idiot womyn's studies major.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

So can anyone. And so what?

2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

This is a funcion of money, not race.

3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

Isn't assuming all white people will be antagonistic toward new black neighbors prejudiced and racist? Of course perhaps those white neighbors who are antagonistic act so because they have seen what happened to other neighborhoods as they got more 'diverse'. The underlying assumption here is that all nonwhites are babes in the woods, wandering, and trying to put down wholesome roots and then the get blindsided by the KKK who delivers them a welcome cake in the shape of a flaming cross. This is the assumption, and it's bullshit. Perhaps those whites who demonstrate antagonism do so for a reason. Such reasons being: gee, before all this diversity moved in, my kids could leave their bikes on the lawn and not worry about them being stolen; gee, before all this diversity moved in, there were few if any gang related crimes in this neighborhood and a lower crime rate in general; or gee, before all this diversity moved in the houses they occupied were well kept with mowed lawns and decent landscaping, and now they are rotted out hell holes with the front door knocked off the hinges and open at all hours and thirty or so mattresses laid out in the back yard, plainly visible from neighboring houses's elevated decks, with Christ knows how many people of Christ knows what character sleeping on them.

There is always supposed to be a give and take. I don't know a single black person, or white or hispanic or anyone for that matter, who moved into my old neighborhood who was given a problem so long as they maintained their damn house, yard, and their kids behaved like everyone else's. Those who brought **** with them got **** on, no two ways about it. Of course one of the other underlying assumptions in these racism is everywhere rants is that there is nothing in white anglo saxon culture worth preserving or cleaving to. It's only every other culture that deserves respect and preservation, even if that culture is based on crap.

4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

I get harrassed all the time at a bookstore I shop at regularly. What's her point? What's more, when I leave the store there's invariably some black kid outside doing high pressure sales of snickers bars or some **** to support this or that cause, in blatant violation of the non solicitation rules the property owners set up. When I enquired as to why these kids were always out there and why I never saw anything for boys and girls clubs or cub scouts or what not, I get told by the manager that almost all solicitation is denied and that these kids were in fact denied, but showed up anyway and threatened to call racism on anyone who complained. These kids literally flock around you as you walk to your car waving candy bars in your face.

So I guess #4 is a problem that goes both ways, unless of course like many obdsessive victicrats one assumes that they are the only person to ever have sufferred a slight or inconvenience.

5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

I see people of all races represented in all media. You live in a predominantly white world, as such most people you see will be white. That is not racist, it's mathematics.

6. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

As before, this is not racism or privilege but historical fact. Should we lie and put some of the founding fathers in black face for the sake of your prescious self esteem? When I learned about Africa almost all the historical figures were black. Is that a bias against whites, or is it because most of the people in Africa are ****ing black?

7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

Even way back when, when I was in high school, we spent a whole ****ing year on 'afro american' studies. What's your point?

8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

Of course you can, because it's easy to publish white bashing 'literature'. It's much harder for a white person to publish something that says whites shouldn't be cowtowing to other races as if we owed everybody something.

9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

The hip hop, jazz, and international sections at the music stores I go to are pretty substantial, and together usually more so than the Rock & Roll section. So once more, your point?

Blah blah blah blah blah, it goes on like this for another twenty miles or so, blithering presumptuous nonsense that assumes the reason behind every slight or inconvenience in life, despite how universal they are, is racism. All the **** you post begs the question Luther, it doesn't answer it.
 
Man, you guys have been busy since I logged on last! I have been very entertained. And thanks for the responses Luther, again, I have a few follow up questions: And please dont answer questions with "Relevance ?"

lutherblsstt;1906472]As for your implied point of why they would want to come to the US in the first place I would answer that the government of the United States of America, if it does anything well, does a superb job in its advertising department. (What Goebbels called propaganda.)

What I was saying is that with all this racism, YOU would not want ANY people of color coming here....for their own sake of course.

But the Goebbels propaganda theory is intriguing.

Luther, why would the U.S. Government use propaganda to 'lure' people here?






Vtaper-If Hispanics had the same education level that the Asians reportedly have, would their average household income be the highest since they have the most people per household?

Lutherblsstt-Relevance?

The relevance is obvious. Were talking about racism and the many ways it affects minorities, in this case financialy. I was reacting to data YOU provided that suggests you can overcome racism(as in the case of income) by having a solid education. So I want to know if YOU think a different minority group could surpass Asians as having the highest household income. So lets try again, here is the original question:

If Hispanics had the same education level that the Asians reportedly have, would their average household income be the highest since they have the most people per household?

1. Yes
2. No



Lutherblsstt-Indeed, if one examines ethnic Koreans in Japan and the Burakumin there -- a minority treated much like the Dalits and other lower caste persons in India -- one finds the same kind of consistent underperformance relative to the dominant Japanese in terms of education and employment status.

Both are targets of discrimination, and although they are culturally and genetically indistinguishable from other Koreans or Japanese, they are consistently found at the bottom of Japanese society, and do worse than others in Japan and Korea. Not only does this debunk the notion of pan-Asian cultural superiority, it also suggests that a group's caste status influences group outcomes: much as with blacks in the U.S., whose position has been similar to the Burakumin and ethnic Koreans in Japan.

Hmmm. So your research finds that racism and class warfare are not unique to American or Anglo cultures.

Luther, If YOU ran THOSE nations, what would YOU do to increase equality among their residents?

OR:

Do you feel that Racism and Class Warfare are simply HUMAN conditions that affect EVERY race and ethnicity and therefore can never be totaly eliminated?
 
Man, you guys have been busy since I logged on last! I have been very entertained. And thanks for the responses Luther, again, I have a few follow up questions: And please dont answer questions with "Relevance ?"



What I was saying is that with all this racism, YOU would not want ANY people of color coming here....for their own sake of course.

But the Goebbels propaganda theory is intriguing.

Luther, why would the U.S. Government use propaganda to 'lure' people here?

Ever heard of cheap labor?







The relevance is obvious. Were talking about racism and the many ways it affects minorities, in this case financialy. I was reacting to data YOU provided that suggests you can overcome racism(as in the case of income) by having a solid education. So I want to know if YOU think a different minority group could surpass Asians as having the highest household income. So lets try again, here is the original question:

If Hispanics had the same education level that the Asians reportedly have, would their average household income be the highest since they have the most people per household?

1. Yes
2. No

The answer would have to involve pure speculation and would therefore be irrelevant to the topic.





Do you feel that Racism and Class Warfare are simply HUMAN conditions that affect EVERY race and ethnicity and therefore can never be totaly eliminated?[/B]

No time anymore to lead you by the hand and explain the ins and outs of the history,implementation,effects of Racism,geographical concentration,etc.

If you are really interested may I suggest you google The Iceman Inheritance by Michael Bradley.
 
This is like the fourth time you posted that piece of **** essay, and it's still a piece of ****. I asked for an example, not 9 pages of meandering pseudo-theosophical bullshit from some idiot womyn's studies major.



So can anyone. And so what?



This is a funcion of money, not race.



Isn't assuming all white people will be antagonistic toward new black neighbors prejudiced and racist? Of course perhaps those white neighbors who are antagonistic act so because they have seen what happened to other neighborhoods as they got more 'diverse'. The underlying assumption here is that all nonwhites are babes in the woods, wandering, and trying to put down wholesome roots and then the get blindsided by the KKK who delivers them a welcome cake in the shape of a flaming cross. This is the assumption, and it's bullshit. Perhaps those whites who demonstrate antagonism do so for a reason. Such reasons being: gee, before all this diversity moved in, my kids could leave their bikes on the lawn and not worry about them being stolen; gee, before all this diversity moved in, there were few if any gang related crimes in this neighborhood and a lower crime rate in general; or gee, before all this diversity moved in the houses they occupied were well kept with mowed lawns and decent landscaping, and now they are rotted out hell holes with the front door knocked off the hinges and open at all hours and thirty or so mattresses laid out in the back yard, plainly visible from neighboring houses's elevated decks, with Christ knows how many people of Christ knows what character sleeping on them.

There is always supposed to be a give and take. I don't know a single black person, or white or hispanic or anyone for that matter, who moved into my old neighborhood who was given a problem so long as they maintained their damn house, yard, and their kids behaved like everyone else's. Those who brought **** with them got **** on, no two ways about it. Of course one of the other underlying assumptions in these racism is everywhere rants is that there is nothing in white anglo saxon culture worth preserving or cleaving to. It's only every other culture that deserves respect and preservation, even if that culture is based on crap.



I get harrassed all the time at a bookstore I shop at regularly. What's her point? What's more, when I leave the store there's invariably some black kid outside doing high pressure sales of snickers bars or some **** to support this or that cause, in blatant violation of the non solicitation rules the property owners set up. When I enquired as to why these kids were always out there and why I never saw anything for boys and girls clubs or cub scouts or what not, I get told by the manager that almost all solicitation is denied and that these kids were in fact denied, but showed up anyway and threatened to call racism on anyone who complained. These kids literally flock around you as you walk to your car waving candy bars in your face.

So I guess #4 is a problem that goes both ways, unless of course like many obdsessive victicrats one assumes that they are the only person to ever have sufferred a slight or inconvenience.



I see people of all races represented in all media. You live in a predominantly white world, as such most people you see will be white. That is not racist, it's mathematics.



As before, this is not racism or privilege but historical fact. Should we lie and put some of the founding fathers in black face for the sake of your prescious self esteem? When I learned about Africa almost all the historical figures were black. Is that a bias against whites, or is it because most of the people in Africa are ****ing black?



Even way back when, when I was in high school, we spent a whole ****ing year on 'afro american' studies. What's your point?



Of course you can, because it's easy to publish white bashing 'literature'. It's much harder for a white person to publish something that says whites shouldn't be cowtowing to other races as if we owed everybody something.



The hip hop, jazz, and international sections at the music stores I go to are pretty substantial, and together usually more so than the Rock & Roll section. So once more, your point?

Blah blah blah blah blah, it goes on like this for another twenty miles or so, blithering presumptuous nonsense that assumes the reason behind every slight or inconvenience in life, despite how universal they are, is racism. All the **** you post begs the question Luther, it doesn't answer it.

Try this

WHITE PRIVILEGE SHAPES THE U.S.
[This essay builds on the discussion of white privilege from Peggy McIntosh's essay "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women's Studies."]

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If you prefer a video:
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In case you missed this the first time....You don't' have to keep copy and pasting the same pdf over and over with the same incomplete history. I know you are learning as you go along Luther so its not a crime to admit you don't know the complete history of lending/borrowing in the last 20-30 years.

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"The myth persists that the victims of this boom in loansharking ended up in that position because they could not have qualified for other loans. Yet data from a 2002 Fannie Mae report dispels this notion.

It found:

Credit quality alone therefore does not fully explain the extreme reliance of black households on the subprime market. Further research by Freddie Mac reports that as much as 35 percent of borrowers in the subprime market could qualify for prime market loans. Fannie Mae estimates that number closer to 50 percent.

There are others who have confirmed that the myth is false, most notably the Wall Street Journal, whose analysis of credit scores is one of the most widely-used sources.

Authors Rick Brooks and Ruth Simon reported that the study of more than $2.5 trillion in subprime loans made since 2000 showed:

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"In 2005, the peak year of the subprime boom, the study says that borrowers with such credit scores got more than half — 55% — of all subprime mortgages that were ultimately packaged into securities for sale to investors, as most subprime loans are.

The study by First American LoanPerformance, a San Francisco research firm, says the proportion rose even higher by the end of 2006, to 61%. The figure was just 41% in 2000, according to the study. "

The repeal of Glass-Steagall did not change one fact–the prime victims of predatory lending remained people of color.

A 1999 Woodstock Institute Report on lending in Chicago noted: Invalid Link Removed

The restructuring of financial services industries and the failure of federal and state regulators to respond to these changes have increased the ability of certain lenders and brokers to exploit homeowners, particularly in minority and modest-income communities.

In October 2002, ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) released “The Great Divide,” a report on 2001 national loan data for 68 metropolitan areas. The report found continuing and even growing racial and economic disparities in home mortgage lending. Nationally, African‑American mortgage applicants faced rejection 2.31 times more often than white applicants, and Hispanics were denied 1.53 times more often than whites.

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For those who hold an economic or class-based analysis of the subprime market targeting people of color, the ACORN study is an eye-opener, for it found income made little difference. ACORN notes in Chicago African‑Americans earning more than $84,600 had 2.06 times more likelihood of being turned down than whites earning less than $28,450. The report said:

The rise in subprime and predatory lending has been most dramatic in minority communities. Subprime lenders account for half, 51 percent, of all refinance loans made in predominantly black neighborhoods, compared to just 9 percent of the refinance loans made in predominantly white neighborhoods. Subprime lending, with its higher prices and attendant abuses, is becoming the dominant form of lending in minority communities.

The Community Reinvestment Association of North Carolina adds their study to the evidence:Invalid Link Removed

"In North Carolina, the incidence of high cost loans originated by African-American borrowers are more than four times (4.15) greater than for whites in North Carolina."

Also see:

State of the Dream 2009: The Silent Depression

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Try this

WHITE PRIVILEGE SHAPES THE U.S.
This essay builds on the discussion of white privilege from Peggy McIntosh's essay "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women's Studies."

Read it, and it's another puff piece with no concrete examples and no supportive data. The *******, sorry, the author, assumes white privilege exists and then goes on to claim it exists in a meandering bullshit essay, never giving a specific example of having benefited from so called qhite privilege. Do you have any actual data to support your claims? Nothing you have posted so far qualifies as anything but off the point and often rigged statistics or meandering pseudo sociological bullshit.
 
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"The myth persists that the victims of this boom in loansharking ended up in that position because they could not have qualified for other loans. Yet data from a 2002 Fannie Mae report dispels this notion.

It found:

Credit quality alone therefore does not fully explain the extreme reliance of black households on the subprime market.

No, but this might...

The repeal of Glass-Steagall did not change one fact–the prime victims of predatory lending remained people of color.

The restructuring of financial services industries and the failure of federal and state regulators to respond to these changes have increased the ability of certain lenders and brokers to exploit homeowners, particularly in minority and modest-income communities.

First off, 'predatory lending' in a key word for 'leftist analysis'. A voluntary contract is just that. If one party to it is too stupid, too lazy, too misinformed, etc., to know they can get a better deal that's no one's fault but their own.

In October 2002, ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) released “The Great Divide,” a report on 2001 national loan data for 68 metropolitan areas. The report found continuing and even growing racial and economic disparities in home mortgage lending. Nationally, African‑American mortgage applicants faced rejection 2.31 times more often than white applicants, and Hispanics were denied 1.53 times more often than whites.

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For those who hold an economic or class-based analysis of the subprime market targeting people of color, the ACORN study is an eye-opener, for it found income made little difference. ACORN notes in Chicago African‑Americans earning more than $84,600 had 2.06 times more likelihood of being turned down than whites earning less than $28,450. The report said:

The rise in subprime and predatory lending has been most dramatic in minority communities. Subprime lenders account for half, 51 percent, of all refinance loans made in predominantly black neighborhoods, compared to just 9 percent of the refinance loans made in predominantly white neighborhoods. Subprime lending, with its higher prices and attendant abuses, is becoming the dominant form of lending in minority communities.

What are the ****ing defaults? Got that info? If blacks are being held to a higher standard then their default rates should be lower than whites all else being equal. Are they? You see Luther, there's relevant and irrelevant. When you want to discuss, for example, discriminatory lending practices, you can't look for statistical differences in who gets loans because there will be significant differences no matter how you group people, be it along race, religion, income level, hair color, or ****ing primary car make and model. By studying the issue so directly you allow a billion other variables to come in and affect the result. You will always find differences and they are spurious bullshit and any fourth grader with a minimal stats education would be able to tell you that.

What you need to do is isolate a variable which will prove your case. In this example it is very simple: if all else being equal a black gets rejected more often for a loan that a white person would get, this means that blacks are being held to a higher standard and thus should be defaulting at a much lower rate. Looking at the default rates basically eliminates other variables. Last I checked blacks were not defaulting at a lower rate. If anything, they were defaulting at a higher rate than whites for a given income level and/or credit score.

Of course, before this data came to light we had to have a law making sure blacks got equal access to the American Dream: home ownership. Now after the fact, when people have learned the hard way once more that you can't repeal economic law with political will, it's called 'predatory lending' and the increase in loans to blacks is now racist.

Put bluntly, is there a single ****ing thing 'white america' can do that isn't racist? We leave credit alone and blacks don't get enough of it according to you, and that's racist. More is made available and blacks take it and it ends up doing them more harm than good, and that's racist. It's like a white digs a pit because he wants to install a new cesspool for his house and some dipshit black guy falls into it, it's because of racism. The white guy apologizes and tries to help the black guy out, he's a racist for assuming the black guy couldn't do it himself. Or, the white guy gets mad and says, "Watch where you're walking...", now he's a racist for not helping. And of course he's a racist no matter what because toilet paper is white and **** is brown, and the desire to keep both underground once the former has been dirtied is really a subliminal signal that all blacks belong in prison...

I mean, is there any way to win here? No matter what happens it's all racist. Not enough credit? Racist! Too much credit? Racist.
 
:lol:


Its like watching a car crash.
 
:lol:
Its like watching a car crash.

Damn straight. It'd be funny if it wasn't so ****ing tragic. The waste of humanity that occurs in the US because of this one scapegoat is phenomenal. I often wonder what would have happened if instead of the frauds like Jackson and Sharpton, honest to God leaders like Malcolm X survived and rose to prominence in the black community. Toward the end of his life X actually finally started getting to the heart of the issue: economic power. Whether black nationalism would have made it is an open question. But he was right to focus on blacks working on improving their economic lot, because political power follows economic power, not the other way around. That's why relying on politics to improve your situation leaves you forever impoverished.

Anyway...

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Anarchy and Chaos in Black Communities
by Robert A. Wicks

People often use anarchy and chaos interchangeably. They refer to civil unrest as "anarchy, total chaos." As an anarchist of the anarcho-libertarian variety myself, naturally, this habit irks me. Anarchy is simply the absence of forceful authority. Chaos is disorder. The two things can coexist, but it may be shocking to some to find that the presence of the one does not imply the presence of the other. Nor does the absence of the one imply the absence of the other. They are neither unrelated nor equivalent. And the correlation between the two can often be surprising. This is particularly true among blacks.

I grew up in a black, rural community in Mississippi. I have always enjoyed listening to the stories of the past from my elders. Many of them were relatives from other cities such as Detroit and Chicago. Others were local, or from other parts of the South. One common thread among their reminiscences was the notion that while things were in many ways worse, since there were legal barriers in place which limited black property rights, the neighborhoods themselves were safer than the surrounding areas. In short, blacks were endangered when they encountered law enforcement or people who had the support of law enforcement, since those things enabled them to use force against blacks without fear of retaliation or negative repercussions. Within those black communities in many areas, however, there was no law enforcement, unless they had been summoned. The day-to-day life of those blacks, so long as they remained within their own neighborhoods was essentially anarchic. The state was what was encountered when one left the neighborhood, be it for business or pleasure.

Those neighborhoods, with their localized anarchy, were nonetheless orderly places. The communities policed themselves through ostracism and familial ties. There was little disorder within anarchy. Black-owned businesses served primarily black customers, unless the state intervened to prevent even that bit of freedom. Even during my own childhood in the 1970s, police presence in my community was an almost unheard of occurrence. Crimes and vices were handled among families and family members. Even though some people could be considered leaders, those leaders were followed voluntarily. There was no mayor who forced his edicts upon supporters and opponents alike. Each community was usually a little pocket of anarchy. The well-known negatives associated with involving oneself with a hostile state made self-governing a far better alternative. Consider, however, the situation today: Blacks often have far more frequent encounters with the state. Everything is regulated. There is little anarchy. From drug laws and house raids, which limit what a person can do with his own property and body, to welfare and subsidized housing, which allow a person who has not shown the ability to earn his own keep to remained housed, clothed, and well-fed without having to display character traits which are necessary to earn those things, the state is a constant intruder on the social order. And what do we frequently see in those areas now? Chaos. Disorder. Mayhem. Government.

What afflicts many American black neighborhoods and communities today is not the absence of rules so much as the natural effects of rules forced upon the unwilling. In stark contrast to the more organic leadership of church and business leaders of past generations, modern "leaders" are most frequently bureaucrats or government shills who profit from government action. Since they profit from the state, they are naturally disposed to defend the state. This treachery is clearly on display when we look at how these so-called leaders endorse two things which are devastating to blacks nationwide: the war on drugs and welfare. When we look honestly at the actual effects of these two programs, we see a horror story of nearly unparalleled proportions. Illegitimacy is rampant largely due to the state's subsidizing of irresponsibility. The high levels of violence in many neighborhoods is almost entirely the product of the barbaric war on drugs. Despite these things, the misguided, the foolish, and the downright evil continue to support both of these horrible assaults on property rights and common decency. Make no mistake: any black person who is in favor of the war on drugs is morally defective, mentally defective, or both. The argument for welfare is the common mistake of all socialists. There is no way to do evil and produce only good as a result. What these communities, and all others, need is the elimination of the false, imposed "order" of the state, and more of the unpredictable, natural true order of voluntary association. The state, by attempting to control the natural tendencies of humans to improve themselves and their own conditions, causes the very chaos it claims to prevent.

This really should be surprising to no one. Most of us live in homes which are largely anarchic, yet which have less crime and violence than city streets, which are completely owned by governments. Far from bringing chaos, the anarchic portions of our lives are usually the most peaceful and orderly parts of them. So, when someone asks me "what do you want, anarchy?" I feel completely justified in saying "I can only hope."

April 15, 2009

Robert A. Wicks is a Unix administrator in Atlanta.

Copyright © 2009 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.
 
(Vtaper)Luther, why would the U.S. Government use propaganda to 'lure' people here?

(Luther)Ever heard of cheap labor?

Makes sense.

Luther, which major political party is the bigger advocate for more/easier immigration?

1. Democrats
2. Republicans



(Vtaper)The relevance is obvious. Were talking about racism and the many ways it affects minorities, in this case financialy. I was reacting to data YOU provided that suggests you can overcome racism(as in the case of income) by having a solid education. So I want to know if YOU think a different minority group could surpass Asians as having the highest household income. So lets try again, here is the original question:

If Hispanics had the same education level that the Asians reportedly have, would their average household income be the highest since they have the most people per household?

1. Yes
2. No

(Luther)The answer would have to involve pure speculation and would therefore be irrelevant to the topic.

Much of whats been discussed in these 13 pages has been speculation, but now it becomes irrelevant? Smart people can speculate, they dont have to wait for an agenda based study to come out before commenting on things.

So, if you would be so kind, speculate with me. Simply apply the same logic of this math question:Better education+ Higher than average persons-per-households= High houshold income(on paper at least)

Heres the question for the 3rd time:

If Hispanics had the same education level that the Asians reportedly have, would their average household income be the highest since they have the most people per household?

1. Yes
2. No









(Vtaper)Do you feel that Racism and Class Warfare are simply HUMAN conditions that affect EVERY race and ethnicity and therefore can never be totaly eliminated?[/B]

(Luther)No time anymore to lead you by the hand and explain the ins and outs of the history,implementation,effects of Racism,geographical concentration,etc.

If you are really interested may I suggest you google The Iceman Inheritance by Michael Bradley.

You're not leading me, I already know how I would answer these questions, I sincerely want to know what YOU think. I am genuinely interested in other points of view and how those were reached.

Sorry if you feel these questions are too simple, but that should make them all the more easy to answer. so if anything, humor me. Lets try these 2 again.

Lutherblsstt-Indeed, if one examines ethnic Koreans in Japan and the Burakumin there -- a minority treated much like the Dalits and other lower caste persons in India -- one finds the same kind of consistent underperformance relative to the dominant Japanese in terms of education and employment status.

Both are targets of discrimination, and although they are culturally and genetically indistinguishable from other Koreans or Japanese, they are consistently found at the bottom of Japanese society, and do worse than others in Japan and Korea. Not only does this debunk the notion of pan-Asian cultural superiority, it also suggests that a group's caste status influences group outcomes: much as with blacks in the U.S., whose position has been similar to the Burakumin and ethnic Koreans in Japan.

Hmmm. So your research finds that racism and class warfare are not unique to American or Anglo cultures.

Luther, If YOU ran THOSE nations, what would YOU do to increase equality among their residents?

AND:

Do you feel that Racism and Class Warfare are simply HUMAN conditions that affect EVERY race and ethnicity and therefore can never be totaly eliminated?

1. Yes
2. No
 
Do you feel that Racism and Class Warfare are simply HUMAN conditions that affect EVERY race and ethnicity and therefore can never be totaly eliminated?

1. Yes
2. No

Trying to eliminate racism and prejudice is a denial of reality. You have two possible situations: such racism and prejudice is based on nothing, in which case it is at root stupidity, and the only solution for that is the slaughter of the entire left half of the bell curve; such racism and prejudice is based on experience/statistical expectations from having dealt with people over time, in which case it is warranted and part of the normal process of association and disassociation which makes society thrive. example: the crime rate data is what it is, and as such I'm keeping my ass out of the ghettos if at all possible. I'm sure there are some perfectly nice a respectable people there. But when it comes to my life and property, I'm playing the odds.
 
As an aside, I like to notice the GroupThink inherrent to almost everything Luther posts or links to. Why am I a racist? Because: I'm part of a larger group; someone who looks like me did something extremely brutal a few hundred years ago; because people who look like me occassionally do brutal things currently; because I have some unspoken privilege due to the first reason.

Of course as someone who engages in hiring and firing regularly I can say for damn sure being white doesn't guarantee you **** in my interview room. I talk to people all day, white, black, asian, russian, latin, etc., and I get to deal with more than my share of human artechokes from all groups. People so dense you'd wonder how they managed not to upset the Earth's rotation by walking on it. If these people were as thick literally as they are mentally we'd have spun out of the Milky Way by now. And most of them are white.

And I have to laugh when I remember my CFO contemplating rearranging the whole accounting department to accomodate the hire of one young guy, a black guy, for the sole reason that he would up the game of everyone in the department. Unfortunately we needed to do a hell of a lot more rearranging than the owners would tolerate.

Very few things make me as sick as seeing a Klan rally or march. That kind of pointless hatred drives me up a wall and I don't need more reminders of just how many dumb ****s there are in this world. But I also hate to see humanity wasted on the altar of collectivism and deferred responsibility. And those two issues are key within the black community.
 
Read it, and it's another puff piece with no concrete examples and no supportive data. The *******, sorry, the author, assumes white privilege exists and then goes on to claim it exists in a meandering bullshit essay, never giving a specific example of having benefited from so called qhite privilege. Do you have any actual data to support your claims? Nothing you have posted so far qualifies as anything but off the point and often rigged statistics or meandering pseudo sociological bullshit.

That is you your opinion of the paper,here is another"

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"One plausible reason for our failure to see privilege is the explanation that Peggy McIntosh gives: " . . . we were taught not to see [privilege] . . .I observe that the people who benefit most (in the short run) from privilege systems in the United States are kept most blinded to the existence of privilege systems, to preserve the myths of moral and managerial meritocracy and the belief that democracy is working as it should."

This explanation seems to suggest collusion on the part of the privileged, or at bare minimum a perpetrator or group of perpetrators. I have drawn that conclusion from the phrases "taught not to see" and "kept most blinded." Those phrases suggest agency, that someone has intent, and is actively engaging in an activity that has our lack of awareness as a result. That explanation is plausible, and may, in fact, be correct.

Another plausible explanation is that privilege operates outside rationality, at an out-of-awareness level. (Jonathan Lear's Open Minded is a good reference on this. See Invalid Link Removed )

Martha Minow deals with this issue in her discussion of unstated assumptions Invalid Link Removed in Making All the Difference: Inclusion and Exclusion in American Law.

For example, McIntosh's 15th instance: "I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the newspaper and see people of my race widely and positively represented." Unstated assumptions which underlie this are that people tend to like people who appear to be like them (Adorno, Rokeach, etc.), that a majority of the people engaging in this activity will be white, that they want to see pictures of people who appear to be like them. The recognition that all people share this liking for people like them leads to TV programs and local newspapers that satisfy the preference for "like them."

The major unstated assumption here is that people do, in fact, want this likeness feature. Made aware of it, perhaps they would not, or perhaps we could temper the messages we are sending over the media. (One approach to research in this area takes off around Adorno's The Authoritarian Personality, and anothre approach is reflected in work on status characteristic theory, Irwin Katz, Elizabeth Cohen, and others.)

I particularly like McIntosh' focus on not invoking blame or shame, just making us aware. The importance of awareness as a tool for altering privilege and exclusion is reflected in the work of Martha Minow and Jonathan Lear. "

See also: Morris King's article on racism in tennis Invalid Link Removed
 
But I also hate to see humanity wasted on the altar of collectivism and deferred responsibility. And those two issues are key within the black community.


Says the all knowing CDB who abhores generalization and then makes the grandest generalization of them all.

By the way,in regards to the bolded part of your post,is that a fact or an opinion?

One more quote:

"It's called projection


—when someone subconsciously realizes that a particular trait applies to them, and then attempts to locate that trait in others, so as to alleviate the stigma or self-doubt created by the trait in question.

It’s a well-understood concept of modern psychology, and explains a great deal, including why men who are struggling with their own sexuality are often the most outwardly homophobic. Or the way whites during slavery typified black men as rapists, even though the primary rapists were white slaveowners themselves, taking liberties with their female property

I got to thinking about projection recently, after receiving numerous angry e-mail from folks who had read one or another of my previous commentaries, and felt the need to inform me that people of color are "looking for a handout," and are "dependent" on government, and of course, whites.

This critique is a prime example of projection, for in truth, no people have been as dependent on others throughout history as white folks."

Skipping down

"white dependence on people of color continues to this day. Each year, African Americans spend over $500 billion with white-owned companies: money that goes mostly into the pockets of the white owners, white employees, white stockholders, and white communities in which they live. And yet we say black people need US? We think they are the dependent ones, relying as we assume they do on the paltry scraps of an eviscerated welfare state?

Who would be hurt more: black folks if all welfare programs were shut down tomorrow, or white folks, if blacks decided they were through transferring half-a-trillion dollars each year to white people and were going to keep their money in their own communities?

Or what about the ongoing dependence of white businesses on the exploitation of black labor? Each year, according to estimates from the Urban Institute Invalid Link Removed , over $120 billion in wages are lost to African Americans thanks to discrimination in the labor market. That’s money that doesn’t end up in the hands of the folks who earned it, but rather remains in the bank accounts of owners. Dependence."

Our dependence on people of color even extends to our need to have them as spokespeople for our ideologies and agendas. Witness the proliferation of high-profile conservatives of color who bash their own people for us, so we don’t have to do it alone. Ken Hamblin, Clarence Thomas, Larry Elder, Walter Williams, or near-miss Secretary of Labor nominee, Linda Chavez: all of them, walking, talking lawn jockeys, shining their lights for white supremacy. And oh yes, our need for them is most certainly a form of dependence.

Then, we rely on still more people of color to help further the agenda of white dominance: namely Asians, whom we proclaim to be "model minorities Invalid Link Removed ." "See how hard the Asians work?" whites love to say, "Why can’t blacks be more like them?" Of course, we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians, or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations, or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal. Never mind all that. The model minority myth has a power all its own, and is one more way in which whites have become dependent on those with more melanin.

Indeed, I am beginning to think that whites are so dependent on people of color that we wouldn’t know what to do without them. Oh sure, some neo-Nazis say they would love to try, but in reality I doubt they could make it. If there were no black and brown folks around, then whites would have no one to blame but ourselves for crimes that occur; no one to blame but ourselves when we don’t get the jobs we want; no one but ourselves to blame when our lives turn out to be less than expected. "
 
Makes sense.

Luther, which major political party is the bigger advocate for more/easier immigration?

1. Democrats
2. Republicans

Relevance?




Much of whats been discussed in these 13 pages has been speculation, but now it becomes irrelevant? Smart people can speculate, they dont have to wait for an agenda based study to come out before commenting on things.

OK "smart" person,speculate away!




You're not leading me, I already know how I would answer these questions, I sincerely want to know what YOU think. I am genuinely interested in other points of view and how those were reached.

Sorry if you feel these questions are too simple, but that should make them all the more easy to answer. so if anything, humor me. Lets try these 2 again.



Hmmm. So your research finds that racism and class warfare are not unique to American or Anglo cultures.

Luther, If YOU ran THOSE nations, what would YOU do to increase equality among their residents?


I would need to understand the cultural background of the attitudes in order to address such issues. I do live in Japan and know it would take a massive social engineering program delivered via the various forms of media to begin to change the attitudes here.





Do you feel that Racism and Class Warfare are simply HUMAN conditions that affect EVERY race and ethnicity and therefore can never be totaly eliminated?

1. Yes
2. No

Funny how you try to limit the answer to black or white i.e. yes or no.

Are you a control freak?

1.Yes
2. No

Racism is a European manufacture. We planted and cultivated it everywhere we went.The first institutionalization of racism occurred in India but, of course, did not end there. In that we are global trespassers, it is a global phenomenon.

We were and remain its carriers. Racism continues to be replicated wherever we "discover" new, untamed frontiers and "uncivilized" peoples. It remains constant in those places where we have physically departed but remain absentee resource controllers.

Mwalimu Baruti ,a prof. at a black college in Atlanta writes:
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" Racism is not logical. It is not susceptible to moral reason. It can not and will not be peacefully negotiated away.

Consequently, to keep the thin veneer of racial harmony intact, racism’s definition has been modified to exonerate its source.

New world order everyone-should-love-each-other-and-forgive-and-forget-what-they-systematically-and-savagely-did-to-our-ancestors-and-still-do-to-us-because-we’re-all-human propaganda is designed to make us feel that they are being unfairly accused and victimized.

Racism and colorism have become purposefully entangled to the point where, "by making racism everyone’s disease, you make it incurable...the universalization of blame implies that people of color must suffer discrimination without hope of escape."

By this switch, this redefinition, it is made to seem as if we do it to ourselves.

We become the source, the culprit, the lone, unprovoked perpetrator. We become the initiators. We become racism’s history. Europeans no longer play any part beyond being members of a human family where everybody is naturally as racist as they have proven themselves to be.

We must learn that political definitions are created by people to benefit themselves. They serve self-interested agendas."
 
Damn straight. It'd be funny if it wasn't so ****ing tragic. The waste of humanity that occurs in the US because of this one scapegoat is phenomenal. I often wonder what would have happened if instead of the frauds like Jackson and Sharpton, honest to God leaders like Malcolm X survived and rose to prominence in the black community.

Now there is an interesting question!

Toward the end of his life X actually finally started getting to the heart of the issue: economic power. Whether black nationalism would have made it is an open question. But he was right to focus on blacks working on improving their economic lot, because political power follows economic power, not the other way around.

This is true

That's why relying on politics to improve your situation leaves you forever impoverished.

I agree,I have never seen a Korean congressman,Senator,President,etc. but Koreans have a considerable amount of power in the US.
 
No, but this might...



First off, 'predatory lending' in a key word for 'leftist analysis'. A voluntary contract is just that. If one party to it is too stupid, too lazy, too misinformed, etc., to know they can get a better deal that's no one's fault but their own.



What are the ****ing defaults? Got that info? If blacks are being held to a higher standard then their default rates should be lower than whites all else being equal. Are they? You see Luther, there's relevant and irrelevant. When you want to discuss, for example, discriminatory lending practices, you can't look for statistical differences in who gets loans because there will be significant differences no matter how you group people, be it along race, religion, income level, hair color, or ****ing primary car make and model. By studying the issue so directly you allow a billion other variables to come in and affect the result. You will always find differences and they are spurious bullshit and any fourth grader with a minimal stats education would be able to tell you that.

What you need to do is isolate a variable which will prove your case. In this example it is very simple: if all else being equal a black gets rejected more often for a loan that a white person would get, this means that blacks are being held to a higher standard and thus should be defaulting at a much lower rate. Looking at the default rates basically eliminates other variables. Last I checked blacks were not defaulting at a lower rate. If anything, they were defaulting at a higher rate than whites for a given income level and/or credit score.

Of course, before this data came to light we had to have a law making sure blacks got equal access to the American Dream: home ownership. Now after the fact, when people have learned the hard way once more that you can't repeal economic law with political will, it's called 'predatory lending' and the increase in loans to blacks is now racist.

Put bluntly, is there a single ****ing thing 'white america' can do that isn't racist? We leave credit alone and blacks don't get enough of it according to you, and that's racist. More is made available and blacks take it and it ends up doing them more harm than good, and that's racist. It's like a white digs a pit because he wants to install a new cesspool for his house and some dipshit black guy falls into it, it's because of racism. The white guy apologizes and tries to help the black guy out, he's a racist for assuming the black guy couldn't do it himself. Or, the white guy gets mad and says, "Watch where you're walking...", now he's a racist for not helping. And of course he's a racist no matter what because toilet paper is white and **** is brown, and the desire to keep both underground once the former has been dirtied is really a subliminal signal that all blacks belong in prison...

I mean, is there any way to win here? No matter what happens it's all racist. Not enough credit? Racist! Too much credit? Racist.

In 2007 testimony before the House Financial Services Committee Jim Campen, Executive Director Americans for Fairness in Lending, reported on results of an ongoing study his group is conducting in the Boston area:

Invalid Link Removed

"The black/white denial rate ratio, which averaged about 2.0 during the 1990s, was 2.34 in 2005, while the Latino/white denial rate ratio, typically about 1.5 during the 1990s, was 2.07 in 2005.

In the highest income category, consisting of borrowers with incomes above $150,000, black applicants experienced a denial rate of 25.9%, almost triple the 8.9% denial rate experienced by their white counterparts; the 20.7% denial rate for Latinos with incomes above $150,000 was 2.3 times greater than the white rate.

I have focused my analysis on mortgage lending in Massachusetts, with particular emphasis on the city of Boston and the Greater Boston area, but I believe that a detailed examination of mortgage lending patterns in other cities and states would reveal qualitatively similar findings."

The message to people of color is clear: not matter how much you make you will face discrimination in getting a mortgage.

Invalid Link Removed

"In short, not only did the repeal of Glass-Steagall open the floodgates for banks to enter into loansharking, after the repeal the discrimination against people of color became worse!"


The Web of Deceit

The real shock is that many of these studies data back to as long as a decade ago, with each subsequent study piling on more evidence to support the previous ones. After much time spent reading all this evidence you begin to wonder if anyone else has read it. Yet some of the studies such as the North Carolina one were inserted into the Congressional Record where they lie today, largely unknown to the general public.

This is evidence of discrimination on a scale resembling the mountain of evidence marshaled for Brown v Board or the abuses of Reconstruction or the evils of slavery. In 1944 Gunnar Myrdal referred to the problem of race as an “American dilemma.” Sixty years later the dilemma has become quite simply one of economic survival and with it the survival of our democratic society.

Sandy Weill built a financial empire on loansharking. Even long after Citi had mergered and acquisitioned its way to the very top of the American financial industry, Citi continued to engage in loansharking. And they are far from alone. Bank of America recently agreed to a settlement that will probably be the largest in history over the loansharking activities of its subprime affiliate, Countrywide.

Weill could not have done this alone. Instead he had help at the highest levels, including the three Congressmen whose names are on the bill that repealed Glass-Steagall to then Secretary of the Treasury Robert Rubin to the many economists and policy wonks who were gung-ho for securitization in all its manifestations. Rubin joined Citi shortly after leaving Treasury to become one of its most trusted advisors. Did he know about the loansharking or was he looking the other way?

Given the huge increase in subprime mortgages and the role they played in Citi’s portfolio along with the mountain of evidence showing their disproportionate impact on people of color it is hard to believe anyone in the financial industry from regulators to bankers was not aware of this. Yet they chose not merely to look the other way, but to allow it to continue until the elephant in the room became too big to ignore.

This is what researchers mean when they speak of “structural racism,” for it is not merely a matter of personal prejudice. Many of the people involved–including Sandy Rubin–would vehemently deny that they are racists. The ugly reality of structural racism is that like termites infecting a house it gnaws away at institutions until they weaken and threaten to topple.

Right now the entire American economy may topple because it is infected with the termites of structural racism. In a recent paper Rick Cohen writes:

The subprime crisis carries the seeds of structural racism not from discriminatory intent, but from ostensibly racially benign or supposedly ameliorative policies and programs. This is a difficult message for the nation to hear. The pushback has been strong.

Jim Campen agrees:

The enormous racial disparities in mortgage lending and the dramatic shrinkage of the portion of total mortgage lending that is subject to evaluation by bank regulators under the provisions of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) indicate the need for major changes in public policy toward the mortgage lending industry."
 
No, because it's another puff piece. All these authors are assuming their conclusion is true without having to support it. What is white privelege? Do people in Africa have black privilege? If so, is white privilege just the result of there being a lot of white people?

This is part of the racism is every where all the time movement. As people assimilate and the type of blatant systemic racism that did exist at one time subsides problems arise. One of those problems is that some people make their living or otherwise define themselves as in opposition to racism, and as its prevelance declines they have two choices: move on; dig deeper and hope to find more. A lot of people, especially academics, choose the latter option. That's how you get theories of racism without intent, or concepts like 'white privilege'. Unfortunately what these people are actually doing is taking what would be recognized in any other context as a mere condition of existence that deviates from the ideal, as all life does, and forcing it into their limited and stunted black vs white view of the world, finding racism.

None of these 'papers' (any of which I would have been ashamed to hand in while I was in college, the severe lack of research and documentation being ridiculous) have any hard data listed. It's all ephemeral bullshit. What they call white privilege I call life. It's nothing different than I would have to deal with if I moved to a place where I was in the minority racially, religiously, etc. If these people want to take every aspect of existence that deviates from philosophical perfection and blame racism for those differences, more power to them. They're a bunch of morons and they're wasting their time, as very few people can keep their head up their ass long enough to buy this stuff in the long term. At some point most people wake up and give themselves a pep talk along these lines:

"Hey you. Yeah me, you! Here's the deal: in the past of this country and this Earth people did a lot of crappy **** to one another because they looked different or worshipped a different version of Santa Clause. We don't do that anymore, it's bad and wastes time, money, and blood. But people still look different and often are different for various reasons that kind of more or less coincide with their more superficial differences. So be polite and civil, mix to your tolerance level, and try to be as full of as little **** as possible when dealing with your fellow human beings, however stupid their hair or clothes may seem to you. They expect and deserve no less, as do you, and a good selection of take out restaurants will result at the very least."

That is you your opinion of the paper,here is another"

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"One plausible reason for our failure to see privilege is the explanation that Peggy McIntosh gives: " . . . we were taught not to see [privilege] . . .I observe that the people who benefit most (in the short run) from privilege systems in the United States are kept most blinded to the existence of privilege systems, to preserve the myths of moral and managerial meritocracy and the belief that democracy is working as it should."

This explanation seems to suggest collusion on the part of the privileged, or at bare minimum a perpetrator or group of perpetrators. I have drawn that conclusion from the phrases "taught not to see" and "kept most blinded." Those phrases suggest agency, that someone has intent, and is actively engaging in an activity that has our lack of awareness as a result. That explanation is plausible, and may, in fact, be correct.

Another plausible explanation is that privilege operates outside rationality, at an out-of-awareness level. (Jonathan Lear's Open Minded is a good reference on this. See Invalid Link Removed )

Martha Minow deals with this issue in her discussion of unstated assumptions Invalid Link Removed in Making All the Difference: Inclusion and Exclusion in American Law.

For example, McIntosh's 15th instance: "I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the newspaper and see people of my race widely and positively represented." Unstated assumptions which underlie this are that people tend to like people who appear to be like them (Adorno, Rokeach, etc.), that a majority of the people engaging in this activity will be white, that they want to see pictures of people who appear to be like them. The recognition that all people share this liking for people like them leads to TV programs and local newspapers that satisfy the preference for "like them."

The major unstated assumption here is that people do, in fact, want this likeness feature. Made aware of it, perhaps they would not, or perhaps we could temper the messages we are sending over the media. (One approach to research in this area takes off around Adorno's The Authoritarian Personality, and anothre approach is reflected in work on status characteristic theory, Irwin Katz, Elizabeth Cohen, and others.)

I particularly like McIntosh' focus on not invoking blame or shame, just making us aware. The importance of awareness as a tool for altering privilege and exclusion is reflected in the work of Martha Minow and Jonathan Lear. "

See also: Morris King's article on racism in tennis Invalid Link Removed
 
Says the all knowing CDB who abhores generalization and then makes the grandest generalization of them all.

By the way,in regards to the bolded part of your post,is that a fact or an opinion?

It's my opinion based on my experience. I don't abhore generalization, but opinion is opinion and when someone asks for proof I either give them a deduction based on facts or a source to support my view, not a link to some one else's opinion.

One more quote:

"It's called projection

I'm not blaming my problems on anyone else but myself, so you're off on this one, Luther.

I got to thinking about projection recently, after receiving numerous angry e-mail from folks who had read one or another of my previous commentaries, and felt the need to inform me that people of color are "looking for a handout," and are "dependent" on government, and of course, whites.

When it comes to government race isn't so much an issue as tax consumers vs tax payers. People move in and out of each group regularly, most people would rather consume than pay. In that respect blacks are no different than whites; everyone wants a free lunch.

This critique is a prime example of projection, for in truth, no people have been as dependent on others throughout history as white folks.

Since there has yet to exist a society that didn't practice slavery on some level with some portion of its population, the implication of this statement is null and void.

white dependence on people of color continues to this day. Each year, African Americans spend over $500 billion with white-owned companies: money that goes mostly into the pockets of the white owners, white employees, white stockholders, and white communities in which they live. And yet we say black people need US? We think they are the dependent ones, relying as we assume they do on the paltry scraps of an eviscerated welfare state?

The economic ignorance of the person who wrote this is stellar in nature. I will need access to Hubble to pin point the problem.

Who would be hurt more: black folks if all welfare programs were shut down tomorrow, or white folks, if blacks decided they were through transferring half-a-trillion dollars each year to white people and were going to keep their money in their own communities?

See above point on economic ignorance. Even if spending was what drove the economy, which it isn't, if the welfare programs shut down the money would not be taken from earners and they would have more to save and spend themselves. Just because blakc welfare recipients aren't spending it or investing doesn't mean it vanishes off the face of the Earth or the money supply magically contracts. In point of fact the entire amount of the tranferred wealth would remain with the original earners to do with as they saw fit, as would the administrative costs associated with the welfare programs which would also no longer be necessary.

The people who are most 'hurt' by the end of a wealth transfer program are those who were counting on the transfer.

Or what about the ongoing dependence of white businesses on the exploitation of black labor? Each year, according to estimates from the Urban Institute Invalid Link Removed , over $120 billion in wages are lost to African Americans thanks to discrimination in the labor market. That’s money that doesn’t end up in the hands of the folks who earned it, but rather remains in the bank accounts of owners. Dependence.

If this were true unemployment among blacks would be lower than among whites for a given income class, vocation, etc. It isn't. Therefore the person who wrote this, once more, has a few centuries of economic education to catch up on. The specific problem with claiming that greedy capitalists are pocketing a wage differential based on racial discrimination is that this profit is generalized across the market and would attract the employment of more labor from the supposedly discriminated against class. That is, if you offer the same product for less, people will tend to buy more of the lower priced product. When that product is labor and the price difference is determined by race, in this situation that means people will be more inclined to employ blacks than whites. But this goes completely against your other statistics that say blacks are less likely to be hired for the same job.

So which is it, Luther? You can't have it both ways. You can't claim blacks don't get the jobs but then out of the other side of your mouth claim they get paid less for the same work and thus let The Man profit at blacks' expense. The most basic understanding of economics would allow you to understand that the two situations are incompatible; they can't exist at the same time. Otherwise you have to explain why these greedy bastards are not hiring blacks as often as they should yet at the same time scrambling to take advantage of discriminatory wage practices that put more profit in their pockets. The former situation would mean blacks would be employed at a lower rate than whites for a given job, the latter would mean they would be employed at a higher rate than whites for a given job. Unless of course racism magically makes the law of marginal utilty disappear too. Perhaps racism can also defy the laws of gravity and let white people fly so we can literally **** on blacks.

So you see, when you get down to hard facts and analysis your position dissintegrates like so much bullshit with a firehose aimed at it. Your claims are inherrently contradictory.

Our dependence on people of color even extends to our need to have them as spokespeople for our ideologies and agendas. Witness the proliferation of high-profile conservatives of color who bash their own people for us, so we don’t have to do it alone. Ken Hamblin, Clarence Thomas, Larry Elder, Walter Williams, or near-miss Secretary of Labor nominee, Linda Chavez: all of them, walking, talking lawn jockeys, shining their lights for white supremacy. And oh yes, our need for them is most certainly a form of dependence.

Or, proof positive that your arguments about race are not based on fact but upon a chosen world view/ideology. You choose to see the world this way, therefore these people are uncle Toms, and not just people who disagree with you.

Then, we rely on still more people of color to help further the agenda of white dominance: namely Asians, whom we proclaim to be "model minorities Invalid Link Removed ." "See how hard the Asians work?" whites love to say, "Why can’t blacks be more like them?" Of course, we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians, or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations, or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal. Never mind all that. The model minority myth has a power all its own, and is one more way in which whites have become dependent on those with more melanin.

The problem with citing wage differences have been explained to you repeatedly. You either get them or you don't. They don't however disappear as issues simply because you choose to ignore them.

If there were no black and brown folks around, then whites would have no one to blame but ourselves for crimes that occur;

Actually if there were no black and brown folks around, assuming all else stayed the same, there would be a significant drop in crime.

no one to blame but ourselves when we don’t get the jobs we want;

More contradiction. Please explain how blacks are discriminated against in employment but a the same time 'take' jobs from whites.

no one but ourselves to blame when our lives turn out to be less than expected. "

This last line is rather funny, since it is you, and blacks in general who routinely blame anyone and everyone else for their lives' shortcomings and whites who are by and large constantly preaching personal responsiblity. Generalizations to be sure, but your whole ideology as expressed on these boards is based on the idea that whites, intentially and unintentially, specifically and systematically, are responsible for any and all problems blacks encounter in life. Talk about projection. But I guess that's one of the benefits of playing the perpetual victim.

In 2007 testimony before the House Financial Services Committee Jim Campen, Executive Director Americans for Fairness in Lending, reported on results of an ongoing study his group is conducting in the Boston area:

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"The black/white denial rate ratio, which averaged about 2.0 during the 1990s, was 2.34 in 2005, while the Latino/white denial rate ratio, typically about 1.5 during the 1990s, was 2.07 in 2005.

In the highest income category, consisting of borrowers with incomes above $150,000, black applicants experienced a denial rate of 25.9%, almost triple the 8.9% denial rate experienced by their white counterparts; the 20.7% denial rate for Latinos with incomes above $150,000 was 2.3 times greater than the white rate.

I have focused my analysis on mortgage lending in Massachusetts, with particular emphasis on the city of Boston and the Greater Boston area, but I believe that a detailed examination of mortgage lending patterns in other cities and states would reveal qualitatively similar findings."

The message to people of color is clear: not matter how much you make you will face discrimination in getting a mortgage.

Once more, what are the defaults? Once more, a billion or so factors could come into play when making a lending decision. If you truly want to know if some group or another is being treated different you can't look at the begining, you have to look at the outcomes. If the defaults are the same across the races then everyone is being held to the same standard. If some group is defaulting at a higher rate they are being held to a lower standard, a lower rate then they are being held to a higher standard. By looking at the default rates all other lending criteria are accounted for and essentially normalized. In other words there is no way to hide systemic lending bias that is occurring further up the line. The same default rate across two groups would mean that no matter what the denial rates for each individual group were, the lending standards were the same for those granted credit.

This is what researchers mean when they speak of “structural racism,” for it is not merely a matter of personal prejudice. Many of the people involved–including Sandy Rubin–would vehemently deny that they are racists. The ugly reality of structural racism is that like termites infecting a house it gnaws away at institutions until they weaken and threaten to topple.

Or **** happens. Something people intent on assigning a motive to every slight don't want to consider.

And again, where's the win? People claim blacks are being denied access to the American Dream of home ownership, so the government enacts legislation that encourages lending to people who otherwise would not have gotten loans, they default at a higher rate and this result is racist?

Also, please explain why discrimination and racism equal poverty? The Chinese who live in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, the Philippines, and Vietnam are a minority in these countries, Malaysia with discrimination written into the law, and yet they control massive amounts of wealth within these countries and do very well for themselves. Why, when they are so systemically discriminated against?

You constantly bring up wage differences. While the problem with mean and median income has been explained, has it occurred to you that there are other factors involved? Do you realize that average age can differ by 25 years between ethnic groups, which would be significant since and older, more experienced workforce earns more. Do you realize that not all ethnicities are represented in equally economically performing geogrphical areas? I recall a stat from '04 that pointed out that college educated black couples earned more than similarly educated white couples. Of course this difference disappeared when you took each race as an aggregate.

What about drop out rates by race, as well doctorates earned by race, and in what fields? Blacks earn a lot of degrees in education related fields, but that field is generally lower paid overall. Gee, might that affect the results?

The reality is charges of racism lead to government and banks making credit available to those who didn't deserve it. And when they defaulted the answer was again, racism. As usually, no way our for whitey. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

"Black America is caught in certain ideological holding patterns that are today much more serious barriers to black well-being than white racism, and constitute nothing less than a continuous, self-sustaining act of self-sabotage…. It has become a keystone of cultural blackness to treat victimhood not as a problem to be solved but as an identity to be nurtured…. lack Americans too often teach one another to conceive of racism not as a scourge on the wane but as an eternal pathology changing only in form and visibility, and always on the verge of getting not better but worse."
- Professor John McWhorter
 
No, because it's another puff piece. All these authors are assuming their conclusion is true without having to support it. What is white privelege? Do people in Africa have black privilege? If so, is white privilege just the result of there being a lot of white people?

This is part of the racism is every where all the time movement. As people assimilate and the type of blatant systemic racism that did exist at one time subsides problems arise. One of those problems is that some people make their living or otherwise define themselves as in opposition to racism, and as its prevelance declines they have two choices: move on; dig deeper and hope to find more. A lot of people, especially academics, choose the latter option. That's how you get theories of racism without intent, or concepts like 'white privilege'. Unfortunately what these people are actually doing is taking what would be recognized in any other context as a mere condition of existence that deviates from the ideal, as all life does, and forcing it into their limited and stunted black vs white view of the world, finding racism.

None of these 'papers' (any of which I would have been ashamed to hand in while I was in college, the severe lack of research and documentation being ridiculous) have any hard data listed. It's all ephemeral bullshit. What they call white privilege I call life. It's nothing different than I would have to deal with if I moved to a place where I was in the minority racially, religiously, etc.

Do You Recognize Your Privilege?
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White Benefits Checklist. The list below is abridged, the full one is here Invalid Link Removed

For good in-depth workshops and more, see Challenging White Supremacy Invalid Link Removed , Colours of Resistance Invalid Link Removed and Training for Change Invalid Link Removed . (And before someone gets all huffity-puffity, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I just think that instead of relying on people of color to consistently explain our own racism to us, maybe we should be checking ourselves.)

Look at the following benefits checklist, noting any benefit that you enjoy that a person of color of your age, gender, and class probably does not. Think about what effect not having that benefit would have had on your life.

My ancestors were legal immigrants to this country during a period when immigrants from Asia, South and Central America, or Africa were restricted.

My ancestors came to this country of their own free will and have never had to relocate unwillingly once here.

I live on land that formerly belonged to Native Americans.

I lived or live in a neighborhood that people of color were discouraged or discriminated from living in.

I live in a school district or metropolitan area where more money is spent on the schools that white children go to than on those that children of color attend.

My ancestors were immigrants who took jobs in railroads, streetcars, construction, shipbuilding, wagon and coach driving, house painting, tailoring, longshore work, bricklaying, table waiting, working in the mills, furriering, dressmaking, or any other trade or occupation where people of color were driven out or excluded.

I have worked in a job where people of color were hired last or fired first.

I work in a job, career, or profession or in an agency or organization in which there are few people of color.

My parents were able to vote in any election they wanted without worrying about poll taxes, literacy requirements, or other forms of discrimination.

I can always vote for candidates who reflect my race.

I live in a neighborhood that has better police protection and municipal services, and is safer than one where people of color live.

I see people who look like me in a wide variety of roles on television and in movies.


A substantial percentage of the clothes I wear are made by poorly paid women and children of color in this country and abroad.

The house, office building, school, hotels and motels, or other buildings and grounds I use are cleaned or maintained by people of color.

I don’t need to think about race and racism every day. I can choose when and where I want to respond to racism.
 
This last line is rather funny, since it is you, and blacks in general who routinely blame anyone and everyone else for their lives' shortcomings and whites who are by and large constantly preaching personal responsiblity. Generalizations to be sure, but your whole ideology as expressed on these boards is based on the idea that whites, intentially and unintentially, specifically and systematically, are responsible for any and all problems blacks encounter in life. Talk about projection. But I guess that's one of the benefits of playing the perpetual victim.

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"We depended on laws to defend slavery and segregation so as to elevate
us, politically, socially and economically. We depended on the
Naturalization Act of 1790, to make all European immigrants eligible
for nearly automatic citizenship, with rights above all persons of
color. We depended on land giveaways like the Homestead Act, and
housing subsidies that were essentially white-only for many years,
like FHA and VA loans. Even the GI Bill was largely for whites only,
and all of these government-sponsored efforts were instrumental in
creating the white middle class. But it goes deeper than that.

From the earliest days, "whites" were dependent on the land and natural resources of the Americas, Africa, and Asia. Since Europe offered no substantial natural riches from its soil, European economic advance and expansion was entirely reliant on the taking of other people's land by force, trickery or coercion. That, my friends, is dependence.

Then these same Europeans relied on slave labor to build a new nation and to create wealth for whites; wealth that was instrumental to financing the American Revolution, as well as allowing the textile and tobacco industries to emerge as international powerhouses. From 1790 to 1860 alone, whites and the overall economy reaped the benefits of as much as $40 billion in unpaid black labor. That, my friends, is dependence.


Though apologists for black oppression enjoy pointing out that Africans often sold other Africans into slavery, this too indicates just how dependent whites have been on black people: having to pay and bribe Africans to catch their own and deliver them to us so as to fatten the profits of European elites. We couldn't even do that by ourselves.

Then whites were dependent on Native peoples to teach us farming skills, as our complete ineptitude in this realm left the earliest colonists starving to death and turning to cannibalism when the winters came in order to survive.

We were dependent on Mexicans to teach us how to extract gold from riverbeds and quartz--critical to the growth of the national economy in the mid to late 1800's--and had we not taken over half their nation in an unprovoked war, the emerging Pacific ports so vital to the modern U.S. economy would not have been ours, but Mexico' s. That, my friends, is dependence. Then we were dependent on their labor in the mid 20th century under the bracero program, through which over five million Mexicans were brought into the country for cheap agricultural work, and then sent back across the border.

And we were dependent on Asian labor to build the railroads that made transcontinental travel and commerce possible. 90% of the labor used to build the Central Pacific Railroad in the 1860's were Chinese, imported for the purpose, and exploited because the railroad bosses felt they could better control them than white workers.

In fact, all throughout U.S. labor history whites have depended on the subordination of workers of color; by the marking of black and brown peoples as the bottom rung on the ladder--a rung below which they would not be allowed to fall. By virtue of this racialized class system whites could receive the "psychological wage" of whiteness, even if their real wages left them destitute. That too is dependence, and a kind that has marked even the poorest whites.

In workshops I have asked white folks and people of color what they like about being black, white, or whatever they in fact may be. For African-Americans the answers always have to do with the pride they feel, coming from families who have struggled against the odds, fought injustice, persevered, and maintained dignity in the face of great obstacles. In other words, to be black has internal meaning, derived from the positive actions and experiences of black people themselves. Variations on the same theme tend to be expressed by Latinos, Asians and Indigenous peoples as well.

But for whites, if they come up with anything at all, it is typically something about how nice it is not to have to worry about being racially profiled by police, or how nice it is not to be presumed less competent by employers, or discriminated against when applying for a loan, or looking for a home. In other words, for whites, our self-definition is wrapped up entirely in terms of what and who we aren't. What it means to be white is merely to not be "the other." And for that to have any meaning whatsoever there first must be an "other" against which to contrast oneself.

And that is the most significant dependence of all."

The Absurdity (and Consistency) of White Denial

"I was asked by someone in the audience of one of my speeches, whether or not I believed that racism--though certainly a problem--might also be something conjured up by people of color in situations where the charge was inappropriate. In other words, did I believe that occasionally folks play the so-called race card, as a ploy to gain sympathy or detract from their own shortcomings? In the process of his query, the questioner made his own opinion all too clear (an unambiguous yes), and in that, he was not alone, as indicated by the reaction of others in the crowd, as well as survey data confirming that the belief in black malingering about racism is nothing if not ubiquitous.

White folks have been quick to accuse blacks who answer in the affirmative of playing the race card, as if their conclusions have been reached not because of careful consideration of the facts as they see them, but rather, because of some irrational (even borderline paranoid) tendency to see racism everywhere.

Asked about the tendency for people of color to play the "race card," I responded as I always do: First, by noting that the regularity with which whites respond to charges of racism by calling said charges a ploy, suggests that the race card is, at best, equivalent to the two of diamonds. In other words, it's not much of a card to play, calling into question why anyone would play it (as if it were really going to get them somewhere). Secondly, I pointed out that white reluctance to acknowledge racism isn't new, and it isn't something that manifests only in situations where the racial aspect of an incident is arguable.

Fact is, whites have always doubted claims of racism at the time they were being made, no matter how strong the evidence, as will be seen below.

Finally, I concluded by suggesting that whatever "card" claims of racism may prove to be for the black and brown, the denial card is far and away the trump, and whites play it regularly

Turning Injustice into a Game of Chance: The Origins of Race as "Card"

First, let us consider the history of this notion: namely, that the "race card" is something people of color play so as to distract the rest of us, or to gain sympathy. For most Americans, the phrase "playing the race card" entered the national lexicon during the O.J. Simpson trial. Robert Shapiro, one of Simpson's attorneys famously claimed, in the aftermath of his client's acquittal, that co-counsel Johnnie Cochran had "played the race card, and dealt it from the bottom of the deck." The allegation referred to Cochran's bringing up officer Mark Fuhrman's regular use of the 'n-word' as potentially indicative of his propensity to frame Simpson. To Shapiro, whose own views of his client's innocence apparently shifted over time, the issue of race had no place in the trial, and even if Fuhrman was a racist, this fact had no bearing on whether or not O.J. had killed his ex-wife and Ron Goldman. In other words, the idea that O.J. had been framed because of racism made no sense and to bring it up was to interject race into an arena where it was, or should have been, irrelevant.

That a white man like Shapiro could make such an argument, however, speaks to the widely divergent way in which whites and blacks view our respective worlds. For people of color--especially African Americans--the idea that racist cops might frame members of their community is no abstract notion, let alone an exercise in irrational conspiracy theorizing. Rather, it speaks to a social reality about which blacks are acutely aware. Indeed, there has been a history of such misconduct on the part of law enforcement, and for black folks to think those bad old days have ended is, for many, to let down their guard to the possibility of real and persistent injury (1).

So if a racist cop is the lead detective in a case, and the one who discovers blood evidence implicating a black man accused of killing two white people, there is a logical alarm bell that goes off in the head of most any black person, but which would remain every bit as silent in the mind of someone who was white. And this too is understandable: for most whites, police are the helpful folks who get your cat out of the tree, or take you around in their patrol car for fun. For us, the idea of brutality or misconduct on the part of such persons seems remote, to the point of being fanciful. It seems the stuff of bad TV dramas, or at the very least, the past--that always remote place to which we can consign our national sins and predations, content all the while that whatever demons may have lurked in those earlier times have long since been vanquished.

To whites, blacks who alleged racism in the O.J. case were being absurd, or worse, seeking any excuse to let a black killer off the hook--ignoring that blacks on juries vote to convict black people of crimes every day in this country. And while allegations of black "racial bonding" with the defendant were made regularly after the acquittal in Simpson's criminal trial, no such bonding, this time with the victims, was alleged when a mostly white jury found O.J. civilly liable a few years later. Only blacks can play the race card, apparently; only they think in racial terms, at least to hear white America tell it."
 
Do You Recognize Your Privilege?
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Another puff piece with no data. Another list of irrelevant bullshit that can be pinned on any culture at various times in their history. Your constant submission of literary whining as 'evidence' of something is getting ridiculous. Let us once more take an in depth look at a nice pile of bullshit.

My ancestors were legal immigrants to this country during a period when immigrants from Asia, South and Central America, or Africa were restricted.

A lot of the first immigrants to the US and the colonies were actually the unwanted from various places in Europe. A boat trip across the Atlantic wasn't exactly a luxury back then. Albion Seed tracks a few major migrations, one humurously enough of mostly bachelor men who set up house in VA I believe, and quickly died off. History is full of different migrations of people at differing times for differing reasons with differing restrictions and allowances on their movements and differing results. In other words, this claim is provincial bullshit. Widen your view of the world beyond your perpetual and narrow Woe Is Me 'Cause I'm Black framework and you'll see what you call white privilege either didn't exist or was endured/enjoyed by al different types of people at all different times throughout history.

My ancestors came to this country of their own free will and have never had to relocate unwillingly once here.

This person needs to learn a lot about US history, esepcially vis a vi the religious differences between Puritans, Quakers, Protestants, Lutherans, and Catholics. The early history of the colonies leading up to the revolution and beyond to the forming of the union is very much informed by the very real disputes between these groups. One of the reasons we have the First Ammendment is not because our forefathers were so wise, but because they didn't trust each other further than you can spit a rat, and thus weren't willing to centralize religious authority in the Federal. Quakers used to piss off the Puritans quite a lot actually, to the point where they were put to death if they came to New England territory. As with all previous and subsequent immigrations, the people who came to the colonies and the US concentrated themselves among their like kind, however they defined that. In early colonial history it was religious. Nationalism was also a part of it. You should see how the micks were treated when they came over en masse to the US.

I live on land that formerly belonged to Native Americans.

Boo hoo. First off, if memory serves, many Native Americans had no word for ownership. Second off, when it comes to asserting property rights, they were less than able. If we're going to be truly 'just' along these lines let's all of us move back to Africa, clone some dinosaurs and let them have the rest of the Earth. Otherwise let's stipulate that if the Native Americans had been more productive and less intent on worshipping dirt they might have made a better stand for themselves.

I lived or live in a neighborhood that people of color were discouraged or discriminated from living in.

More past bullshit. We're talking the present. Any laws on the books restricting property ownership based on race?

I live in a school district or metropolitan area where more money is spent on the schools that white children go to than on those that children of color attend.

Blacks have repeatedly voted en masse for Democrats who fervently support the current educational system. When they are offered a way out via vouchers or charter schools they seem to jump on it, and have had every chance to vote such solutions into existence on a mass scale and have repeatedly stuck with the status quo via voting Dem. You get what you deserve and what you vote for in this system. You can't keep throwing your support as a people almost entirely behind a puppet of the teacher's union and then wonder why for all the money the system sucks up it doesn't deliver. There's also the problem of socialization and its inherrent effects on supply and quality to deal with. To treat this as a race issue would mean to ignore those effects as well as the fact that blacks, by and large, have voted themselves to this end.

My ancestors were immigrants who took jobs in railroads, streetcars, construction, shipbuilding, wagon and coach driving, house painting, tailoring, longshore work, bricklaying, table waiting, working in the mills, furriering, dressmaking, or any other trade or occupation where people of color were driven out or excluded.

And? Once more, any current laws on the books? As a point of fact the laws in question were generally favorable to unions which more or less functioned on racial/nationalist lines.

I have worked in a job where people of color were hired last or fired first.

And? Many people also work in jobs were white people were hired last or fired first. This proves zilch.

I work in a job, career, or profession or in an agency or organization in which there are few people of color.

There are few people of color period in this country, relatively speaking. So what?

My parents were able to vote in any election they wanted without worrying about poll taxes, literacy requirements, or other forms of discrimination.

And at other times in the past only property owners were allowed to vote. Modern, social democracy has only been alive and kicking for a century or so, dipshit. You expect it start out perfectly?

I can always vote for candidates who reflect my race.

No, you can't.

I live in a neighborhood that has better police protection and municipal services, and is safer than one where people of color live.

So what you're saying is the only thing stopping blacks from evicerating each other is the cops? Funny, people in my neighborhood tend to be peaceful and law abiding by nature, and as such don't really need the cops for the most part. The people who do have problems ironically enough are in neighborhoods bordering majority black areas.

I see people who look like me in a wide variety of roles on television and in movies.

Again this obsession with the lobotomy box. Who gives a flying ****?

A substantial percentage of the clothes I wear are made by poorly paid women and children of color in this country and abroad.

Actually if you know anything about economics poorly paid is incorrect. The problem is their **** ass governments, and to a greater and greater extent our own these days, are intent on destroying capital quicker than it can be created and employed, leaving the labor force in an increasingly shitty position. If you were to ask these people however if they preferred sewing our pants to prostituting themselves and stealing, often their other options, I wonder what they'd pick...

The house, office building, school, hotels and motels, or other buildings and grounds I use are cleaned or maintained by people of color.

And? I know plenty of white guys who pick up trash too. So what?

I don’t need to think about race and racism every day. I can choose when and where I want to respond to racism.

Neither do blacks. Their insistance on doing otherwise though and thinking about racism all the ****ing time and blaming damn near every undesirable aspect of their lives on it seems to be set in stone. Again, what this writer identifies as White Privilege is at most an accident of history or the result of simple math.

Luther said:
From the earliest days, "whites" were dependent on the land and natural resources of the Americas, Africa, and Asia. Since Europe offered no substantial natural riches from its soil, European economic advance and expansion was entirely reliant on the taking of other people's land by force, trickery or coercion. That, my friends, is dependence.

Then please explain the economic powerhouse of Hong Kong, which itself has no natural resources to speak of. Dependence on natural resources is something all people share, jackass. It's not like blacks don't need food, shelter, and clothing. Now when it comes to aquiring **** there are two ways to do it, trade, or take. All too often many people have chosen the latter option, white and black. Now I'm sure the world you live in where whites make war on everyone else and anyone of a differing/darker skin color wanted nothing but peace and fair trade with one another is very comforting. It's also very wrong. People have been at war with each other since the begining of time over land and pussy and all other things. The only sin whites have committed in this area is to develop better weapons and tactics and to be the winners more often than not. Once more, if differing people's had spent their time developing technology and further enhancing their division of labor rather than living in thier own ****, they might have made a better show for themselves in these conflicts. The desire to conquest though is not nor has it ever been exclusive to white males. It is assinine and, dare I say racist, not to mention immensely ignorant to suggest otherwise.

Though apologists for black oppression enjoy pointing out that Africans often sold other Africans into slavery, this too indicates just how dependent whites have been on black people: having to pay and bribe Africans to catch their own and deliver them to us so as to fatten the profits of European elites. We couldn't even do that by ourselves.

This has got to be the most laughable piece of blame bending/reassigning I've ever seen.

Then whites were dependent on Native peoples to teach us farming skills, as our complete ineptitude in this realm left the earliest colonists starving to death and turning to cannibalism when the winters came in order to survive.

A rereading of history not written by some hopelessly politically correct government educated dipshit might be in order here. As if there was no farming occurring in Britain...

We were dependent on Mexicans to teach us how to extract gold from riverbeds and quartz--critical to the growth of the national economy in the mid to late 1800's--and had we not taken over half their nation in an unprovoked war, the emerging Pacific ports so vital to the modern U.S. economy would not have been ours, but Mexico' s. That, my friends, is dependence.

No, that is conquest. Once more, hardly the exclusive of white males throughout the ages, though in recent centuries we have been the best.

In workshops I have asked white folks and people of color what they like about being black, white, or whatever they in fact may be. For African-Americans the answers always have to do with the pride they feel, coming from families who have struggled against the odds, fought injustice, persevered, and maintained dignity in the face of great obstacles. In other words, to be black has internal meaning, derived from the positive actions and experiences of black people themselves. Variations on the same theme tend to be expressed by Latinos, Asians and Indigenous peoples as well.

But for whites, if they come up with anything at all, it is typically something about how nice it is not to have to worry about being racially profiled by police, or how nice it is not to be presumed less competent by employers, or discriminated against when applying for a loan, or looking for a home. In other words, for whites, our self-definition is wrapped up entirely in terms of what and who we aren't. What it means to be white is merely to not be "the other." And for that to have any meaning whatsoever there first must be an "other" against which to contrast oneself.

So says the author, who is begging the question once more. I myself am quite proud that my heritage is from western europe. They were the first to have a seperation of church and state. The first to enact laws specifically aimed at freedom for the individual, the modern tenants of liberty like Magna Carta and Habeas Corpus. The Spanish Scholastics were among the first in Europe to start thinking about economics in systematic terms, and to try and define international law and to protect the rights of neutral states, actively taking a position against war. Western civilization, for all its faults, was also one of the first to recognize that while all men were supposed to treated equal, few were, and to try and make strides to expand franchises to all men and all women, and to at least attempt something like equality before the law. The idea of personal responsibility is a direct evolution from original sin and comes straight from the Judeo-Christian theology. The ideas of individualism and laissex-faire capitalism and the rise in standards of living they engendered were result and fruit of western thought and philosophy. I am quite proud of my heritage and my race. Of course to say so these days means I'm a white supremacist for some reason. I've never quite understood why that is, unless of course people of differing backgrounds are not so secure in the accomplishments of their forebearers.

Asked about the tendency for people of color to play the "race card," I responded as I always do: First, by noting that the regularity with which whites respond to charges of racism by calling said charges a ploy, suggests that the race card is, at best, equivalent to the two of diamonds. In other words, it's not much of a card to play, calling into question why anyone would play it (as if it were really going to get them somewhere).

Irrelevant, since it's the constant pulling of the card that has in fact dilluted its power, even among the PC crowd.

Secondly, I pointed out that white reluctance to acknowledge racism isn't new, and it isn't something that manifests only in situations where the racial aspect of an incident is arguable.

And a group of people being in love with their status as perpetual victim is completely unheard of...

As for OJ, I don't think blacks are off their rockers to be suspicious of police, I think whites are when they are no tsusicious of the police. However there is a difference between what has happened and what might happen in the future, and what did happen in any particular case. With OJ you had some incompetent police work which the defense did play up into a racism claim, and which likes lead to a brutal murderer being found not guilty. However no black I saw cheering at OJ's aquital was cheering because an unjust system finally backfired in whitey's face, which I could have understood. They were cheering because someone who was almost certainly guilty of a brutal murder got off without punishment. In other words, just as they did recently with this Oakland rapist piece of ****, they picked the wrong ****ing martyr. Which is odd, and begs the question, because if there really is a rash of young black men being brutalized and systematically discriminated against by the police and justice system, why the **** do blacks have such a hard time finding worthy victims of said systemic racism to hold up as symbols for their cause?
 
Another puff piece with no data. Another list of irrelevant bullshit that can be pinned on any culture at various times in their history. Your constant submission of literary whining as 'evidence' of something is getting ridiculous. Let us once more take an in depth look at a nice pile of bullshit.



A lot of the first immigrants to the US and the colonies were actually the unwanted from various places in Europe. A boat trip across the Atlantic wasn't exactly a luxury back then. Albion Seed tracks a few major migrations, one humurously enough of mostly bachelor men who set up house in VA I believe, and quickly died off. History is full of different migrations of people at differing times for differing reasons with differing restrictions and allowances on their movements and differing results. In other words, this claim is provincial bullshit. Widen your view of the world beyond your perpetual and narrow Woe Is Me 'Cause I'm Black framework and you'll see what you call white privilege either didn't exist or was endured/enjoyed by al different types of people at all different times throughout history.



This person needs to learn a lot about US history, esepcially vis a vi the religious differences between Puritans, Quakers, Protestants, Lutherans, and Catholics. The early history of the colonies leading up to the revolution and beyond to the forming of the union is very much informed by the very real disputes between these groups. One of the reasons we have the First Ammendment is not because our forefathers were so wise, but because they didn't trust each other further than you can spit a rat, and thus weren't willing to centralize religious authority in the Federal. Quakers used to piss off the Puritans quite a lot actually, to the point where they were put to death if they came to New England territory. As with all previous and subsequent immigrations, the people who came to the colonies and the US concentrated themselves among their like kind, however they defined that. In early colonial history it was religious. Nationalism was also a part of it. You should see how the micks were treated when they came over en masse to the US.



Boo hoo. First off, if memory serves, many Native Americans had no word for ownership. Second off, when it comes to asserting property rights, they were less than able. If we're going to be truly 'just' along these lines let's all of us move back to Africa, clone some dinosaurs and let them have the rest of the Earth. Otherwise let's stipulate that if the Native Americans had been more productive and less intent on worshipping dirt they might have made a better stand for themselves.



More past bullshit. We're talking the present. Any laws on the books restricting property ownership based on race?



Blacks have repeatedly voted en masse for Democrats who fervently support the current educational system. When they are offered a way out via vouchers or charter schools they seem to jump on it, and have had every chance to vote such solutions into existence on a mass scale and have repeatedly stuck with the status quo via voting Dem. You get what you deserve and what you vote for in this system. You can't keep throwing your support as a people almost entirely behind a puppet of the teacher's union and then wonder why for all the money the system sucks up it doesn't deliver. There's also the problem of socialization and its inherrent effects on supply and quality to deal with. To treat this as a race issue would mean to ignore those effects as well as the fact that blacks, by and large, have voted themselves to this end.



And? Once more, any current laws on the books? As a point of fact the laws in question were generally favorable to unions which more or less functioned on racial/nationalist lines.



And? Many people also work in jobs were white people were hired last or fired first. This proves zilch.



There are few people of color period in this country, relatively speaking. So what?



And at other times in the past only property owners were allowed to vote. Modern, social democracy has only been alive and kicking for a century or so, dipshit. You expect it start out perfectly?



No, you can't.



So what you're saying is the only thing stopping blacks from evicerating each other is the cops? Funny, people in my neighborhood tend to be peaceful and law abiding by nature, and as such don't really need the cops for the most part. The people who do have problems ironically enough are in neighborhoods bordering majority black areas.



Again this obsession with the lobotomy box. Who gives a flying ****?



Actually if you know anything about economics poorly paid is incorrect. The problem is their **** ass governments, and to a greater and greater extent our own these days, are intent on destroying capital quicker than it can be created and employed, leaving the labor force in an increasingly shitty position. If you were to ask these people however if they preferred sewing our pants to prostituting themselves and stealing, often their other options, I wonder what they'd pick...



And? I know plenty of white guys who pick up trash too. So what?



Neither do blacks. Their insistance on doing otherwise though and thinking about racism all the ****ing time and blaming damn near every undesirable aspect of their lives on it seems to be set in stone. Again, what this writer identifies as White Privilege is at most an accident of history or the result of simple math.



Then please explain the economic powerhouse of Hong Kong, which itself has no natural resources to speak of. Dependence on natural resources is something all people share, jackass. It's not like blacks don't need food, shelter, and clothing. Now when it comes to aquiring **** there are two ways to do it, trade, or take. All too often many people have chosen the latter option, white and black. Now I'm sure the world you live in where whites make war on everyone else and anyone of a differing/darker skin color wanted nothing but peace and fair trade with one another is very comforting. It's also very wrong. People have been at war with each other since the begining of time over land and pussy and all other things. The only sin whites have committed in this area is to develop better weapons and tactics and to be the winners more often than not. Once more, if differing people's had spent their time developing technology and further enhancing their division of labor rather than living in thier own ****, they might have made a better show for themselves in these conflicts. The desire to conquest though is not nor has it ever been exclusive to white males. It is assinine and, dare I say racist, not to mention immensely ignorant to suggest otherwise.



This has got to be the most laughable piece of blame bending/reassigning I've ever seen.



A rereading of history not written by some hopelessly politically correct government educated dipshit might be in order here. As if there was no farming occurring in Britain...



No, that is conquest. Once more, hardly the exclusive of white males throughout the ages, though in recent centuries we have been the best.



So says the author, who is begging the question once more. I myself am quite proud that my heritage is from western europe. They were the first to have a seperation of church and state. The first to enact laws specifically aimed at freedom for the individual, the modern tenants of liberty like Magna Carta and Habeas Corpus. The Spanish Scholastics were among the first in Europe to start thinking about economics in systematic terms, and to try and define international law and to protect the rights of neutral states, actively taking a position against war. Western civilization, for all its faults, was also one of the first to recognize that while all men were supposed to treated equal, few were, and to try and make strides to expand franchises to all men and all women, and to at least attempt something like equality before the law. The idea of personal responsibility is a direct evolution from original sin and comes straight from the Judeo-Christian theology. The ideas of individualism and laissex-faire capitalism and the rise in standards of living they engendered were result and fruit of western thought and philosophy. I am quite proud of my heritage and my race. Of course to say so these days means I'm a white supremacist for some reason. I've never quite understood why that is, unless of course people of differing backgrounds are not so secure in the accomplishments of their forebearers.



Irrelevant, since it's the constant pulling of the card that has in fact dilluted its power, even among the PC crowd.



And a group of people being in love with their status as perpetual victim is completely unheard of...

As for OJ, I don't think blacks are off their rockers to be suspicious of police, I think whites are when they are no tsusicious of the police. However there is a difference between what has happened and what might happen in the future, and what did happen in any particular case. With OJ you had some incompetent police work which the defense did play up into a racism claim, and which likes lead to a brutal murderer being found not guilty. However no black I saw cheering at OJ's aquital was cheering because an unjust system finally backfired in whitey's face, which I could have understood. They were cheering because someone who was almost certainly guilty of a brutal murder got off without punishment. In other words, just as they did recently with this Oakland rapist piece of ****, they picked the wrong ****ing martyr. Which is odd, and begs the question, because if there really is a rash of young black men being brutalized and systematically discriminated against by the police and justice system, why the **** do blacks have such a hard time finding worthy victims of said systemic racism to hold up as symbols for their cause?

I will sit down this weekend and make a proper response to this.

Let me ask this though. Is there is any evidence,study,or even personal experience that you can provide that shows that blacks are `in love with their status as perpetual victim` ?

A Quote:

`whatever "card" claims of racism may prove to be for the black and brown, the denial card is far and away the trump, and whites play it regularly`

-Tim Wise
 
Let me ask this though. Is there is any evidence,study,or even personal experience that you can provide that shows that blacks are `in love with their status as perpetual victim` ?

Yes. The works of Professor McHorter who I've quoted, as well as some of the works by the black intellectuals that have been summarily dismissed as uncle toms or happy negros etc., by the people you quote have presented plenty of it. Thomas Sowell has a book out which details and rips apart many of the statistical arguments you have quoted vis a vi wages, employment, and justice system stats.

And the recent Oakland incident is a perfect example. Does 'the black community' see this raping, murdering guy as some prick who no morals, ethics, or reason to be allowed to live, and in fact a threat to their own well being? No. Because he was shot by white cops he's their hero. They'd rather identify with and celebrate the life of a piece of **** that be glad he is gone. Only a perpetual and unprecedented level of victim group think can lead people to identify with such a scum bag and in fact see him as a victim.

If a klansman were to burn a few crosses or churches that served blacks I'd happily decorate the cops who shot him while trying to arrest him if he resisted. I wouldn't lite a candle and march for his dumb ass, claiming people really didn't know the 'real' him. I wouldn't do that because I see the difference between he and I, and the mere fact that we share a common skin color doesn't define my entire world view and his position in it.

I will sit down this weekend and make a proper response to this.

Have fun, I'm mostly done here. You haven't posted a damn thing except some massively out of date, off the point studies. You've at most proven blacks are portrayed differently in the media than whites. So what? We are different, in case you missed that. I could just as well show you incidents in which hard news media went out of their way to avoid reporting the race of crime suspects to 'avoid a racially charged atmosphere,' or avoided reporting stories altogether. Talking about media, how about the way BET treated Bryant Purvis and Carwin Jones? You know, two of the Jena Six kids who cold cocked a white kid and then set to stomping his ****ing brains out and landing him in the hospital. Lots of reporting on that. And again, what's with the choice of martyrs here? These scum bag ****s are the best you can come up with?

Also lots of reporting on the Wichita Horror, the Knoxville Horror, etc. All hate crimes of grotesque nature, with nigh a peep from the national media about them because they were black on white, not the other way around. What do your studies make of those?
 
Luther,

What's your opinion on this case? The Supreme Court is going to make a decision on it in July and I'm curious what is your opinion.


New Haven's Racial Test
Merit doesn't matter for city firefighters.

By ABIGAIL THERNSTROM AND STEPHAN THERNSTROM

The Supreme Court is almost the only place in American society where the "frank" debates on issues of race that Attorney General Eric Holder recently called for actually take place. Justices with lifetime tenure feel free to explore -- camouflaged as legal argument -- the conflicting moral visions that still prevent resolution of America's most important, complex and divisive domestic issue.

That debate is likely to be very much in evidence today when the Court hears argument in Ricci v. DeStefano. The issue in Ricci was simply stated by Judge José Cabranes, dissenting from a cursory, unenlightening opinion by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. "At its core," he wrote, "this case presents a straight-forward question: May a municipal employer disregard the results of a qualifying examination, which was carefully constructed to ensure race-neutrality, on the ground that the results of that examination yielded too many qualified applicants of one race and not enough of another?"

The employer was the New Haven, Conn., fire department, which in 2003 had a number of vacancies for new lieutenants and captains. The department administered written and oral tests to candidates for these promotions, as required by state civil service provisions and city law. But the city's civil service board refused to certify the results and no promotions were approved. Seventeen white candidates and one Hispanic candidate sued, charging a denial of their 14th Amendment rights, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and other federal laws.

The board found the racially disparate results of the tests unacceptable. New Haven's population is 37.4% black, but no African-American was among the top performers on either exam. The highest-scoring black candidate for a captaincy ranked 16th, behind 12 whites and three Latinos. On the lieutenant's exam, the strongest black performers ranked 14th, 15th and 16th.

Statistical parity, however, does not define racial fairness, the plaintiffs contend. The case poses a familiar question: Which road will lead to the racial equality most American seek: racial quotas or color-blind, meritocratic standards?

Frank Ricci, the lead plaintiff, had trusted a test of merit. He had been a firefighter for 11 years and was determined to become a lieutenant. All applicants were given three months to prepare for the exam and provided with a detailed reading list. Mr. Ricci is dyslexic, so he paid an acquaintance more than $1,000 to read textbooks onto audiotapes, made flashcards, took practice tests, worked with a study group and participated in mock interviews. He gave up a second job in order to study long hours. His work paid off: He came in sixth among the 77 candidates who took the exam.

The city set aside the results, although the test had been designed by an experienced Illinois company, Industrial/Organizational Solutions, which routinely scrubbed its assessments for any possible racial bias to protect the agencies from potential civil rights complaints.

The city proclaimed the New Haven test must have been biased, given the results. An amicus brief for the International Association of Professional Black Firefighters declared flatly that it was "widely known and accepted that cognitive examinations, such as used here, have a demonstrated adverse impact on blacks and other minorities." The federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has a "four-fifths rule," which holds that a job-related test in which the passing rate of a racial minority is less than 80% of the white rate is presumptively flawed.

If sharp racial disparities are the measure, however, then virtually any test of knowledge is biased. As the Ricci case was making its way through the courts, the authoritative National Assessment of Educational Progress reported its 2005 findings: 29% of white 12th graders -- but only 6% of those who were black -- scored at the "proficient" level in mathematics. Huge racial disparities also show up in state bar examination results, as well as in those administered to aspiring physicians by the National Board of Medical Examiners. These disparities -- which should not be regarded as a permanent fact of life -- are not an argument for racial quotas, however; individuals, not groups, have rights in American law.

A representative of the black firefighters association told the New Haven civil service board that the tests were irrelevant, since they measure only the "ability to read and retain."

But the days of bucket brigades fighting fires in log cabins are long gone. As any firefighter would tell you, to deal with fires in today's technologically complex environment requires at least some understanding of mathematics, structural engineering, electricity and chemistry.

Judge Janet Bond Arterton, writing for the district court, made the assertion that the plaintiffs couldn't have been the victims of racial discrimination. "All applicants took the same test, and the result was the same for all because the test results were discarded and nobody was promoted," she argued. But change the race of the plaintiffs from white (plus one Hispanic) to black, and the obtuseness of her reasoning is apparent. If a disproportionately large numbers of blacks would have been promoted and the examination results were tossed out for that reason, it would have been an open-and-shut case of blatant racial discrimination.

Let us hope that is the way the Supreme Court views the matter.

Ms. Thernstrom is the author, most recently, of the forthcoming "Voting Rights -- and Wrongs: The Elusive Quest for Racially Fair Elections," published in June by AEI Press. Mr. Thernstrom taught American history at Harvard University from 1973-2008.
 
An amicus brief for the International Association of Professional Black Firefighters declared flatly that it was "widely known and accepted that cognitive examinations, such as used here, have a demonstrated adverse impact on blacks and other minorities."

I can't be the only one torn between laughing my ass off and crying at this statement.
 
I can't be the only one torn between laughing my ass off and crying at this statement.

You're right. I'm appalled by the racism of the statement that organization made. How can that be good for a minority advocate organization to tell the minorities that they represent they're too dumb to pass a test? Maybe that black firefighters group should help by providing them with tutors and other additional assistance to help them overcome the test instead of telling them they're too stupid to compete with white people intellectually.

This really makes me question who the real "cowards" are...
 
You're right. I'm appalled by the racism of the statement that organization made. How can that be good for a minority advocate organization to tell the minorities that they represent they're too dumb to pass a test? Maybe that black firefighters group should help by providing them with tutors and other additional assistance to help them overcome the test instead of telling them they're too stupid to compete with white people intellectually.

This really makes me question who the real "cowards" are...

Cultural bias was and to a certain extent still is a real concern. It used to be blatant, kids were presented a series of faces, one of them a pretty blonde girl, the others a mix of brunettes, black and latina girls and what not, and asked, "Which is the prettiest?" Bias like that is fairly blatant. Some bias still creeps in. For example in intelligence testing kids used to be asked to match certain things with weather conditions. So on one side of the page you'd have pictures of sun glasses, an umbrella, snow boots, etc., on the other side pictures of certain weather conditions like rain, snow, clear day, etc. Latinos were always screwing up on these questions until someone realized: they had never seen snow, carried umbrellas for shade when it was sunny, and stayed inside when it rained because in their countries rain meant ****ing RAIN. You didn't go out, you stayed home and prayed a mudslide wouldn't sweep your ass out to sea.

The problem with these complaints is that cultural bias has been known about for decades and people have been bending over backwards to remove every bit of it from tests. So the question of the disparities in scoring still remain despite continued existence of bias in testing.
 
UN Report points to "stark racial disparities" in U.S. institutions, including its criminal justice system

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"The U.S. is failing to meet international standards on racial equality, according to the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) based in Geneva, Switzerland.

Last Friday, after considering the U.S. government's written and oral testimony, the 18- member committee said it has found "stark racial disparities" in the U.S. institutions, including its criminal justice system.

In concluding the CERD report on the U.S. record, the panel of experts called for the George W. Bush administration to take effective actions to end racist practices against minorities in the areas of criminal justice, housing, healthcare and education.

This is the second time in less than two years that the U.S. government has been found to be falling short of its treaty obligations. In March 2006, The CERD had harshly criticised the U.S. for violating Native Americans' land rights."

Book recommendation:Race and Human Evolution by Rachel Caspari

Racism isn't just an ideology but is an institution.

And its origins don't lie in bad ideas or in human nature.

Rather, racism originated with capitalism and the slave trade. As the writer CLR James put it, "The conception of dividing people by race begins with the slave trade. This thing was so shocking, so opposed to all the conceptions of society which religion and philosophers had…that the only justification by which humanity could face it was to divide people into races and decide that the Africans were an inferior race."

History proves this point. Prior to the advent of capitalism, racism as a systematic form of oppression did not exist. For example, ancient Greek and Roman societies had no concept of race or racial oppression.

Racism began with the expansionism that led Europe to explore and colonize the world. Europeans needed an excuse for conquering a land and subjugating its inhabitants in violation of the Christian ideal, so they began to demonize the "strange" people they found in the Americas, Africa, and Asia.

The first people so demonized were the Caribbean Indians Columbus encountered in 1492.There was one important difference. According to them, slavery was "natural" because of race.

From PBS:Slavery in ancient Rome differed from its modern forms in that it was not based on race.

Slavery had a long history in the ancient world and was practiced in Ancient Egypt and Greece, as well as Rome. Most slaves during the Roman Empire were foreigners and, unlike in modern times, Roman slavery was not based on race.

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You seem to be saying "stop whining about racism". Stop "whining" about racism translates to ignore it?

Should the Jews also stop "whining" about anti-semitism in your opinion?

I think the action reported in the story below is a step in the right direction instead of denial or admonishing the victims of such practices to "stop whining":

Chief vows to root out profiling by Patrol
By J. Patrick Coolican

Seattle Times staff reporter
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com...ug=profiling21m

The deep distrust some African Americans feel for the State Patrol was palpable at a public forum in Seattle last night, but Chief Ronal Serpas seemed to win some trust by conceding that racial profiling does exist and promising to try to root it out of his 1,076-person force.

Analysis conducted earlier this year by The Seattle Times of 1.7 million traffic stops, which found that blacks, Latinos and Native Americans were 2.5 times more likely to be searched than whites, while whites were more likely to have contraband when searched.
 
Rather, racism originated with capitalism and the slave trade. As the writer CLR James put it, "The conception of dividing people by race begins with the slave trade. This thing was so shocking, so opposed to all the conceptions of society which religion and philosophers had…that the only justification by which humanity could face it was to divide people into races and decide that the Africans were an inferior race."

Slavery as an institutional practice predates Capitalism by millennia, the particular view one takes on the chronology of Western Capitalism notwithstanding. If one wishes to take even a provisional look into the recent history of Africa, for example, several forms of institutional racism not inexorably linked with economics are afoot: the Osu system, and the Mande system, to mention two briefly.

The concept of differentiating people vis-a-vis race is not an exclusively, or predominantly, technical-rational concern - history proves its existence is ubiquitous. Only in the most recent of histories has this sectoralization been an economically-driven concern.

History proves this point. Prior to the advent of capitalism, racism as a systematic form of oppression did not exist. For example, ancient Greek and Roman societies had no concept of race or racial oppression.

The Greek and Roman caste systems were predicated upon ethnicity, and to a lesser extent, class positions; particularly the Roman state in occupied city-states.

Luther, I fundamentally agree with the impetus for your musings, but; in most senses, disagree with the substance through which your represent it. The above, for example, are factually inaccurate in respect to the historicity they attempt to accord consideration to! I am not disagreeing with your moral sentiments, nor justifying systemic cultural and racial biases, but I am concerned with engaging in so-called, "factually accurate debates".

I am not going to engage with a debate, so; a response is not necessary. Just ensuring the debate remains true in a historical sense.

:wave2:
 
Let's pause here for a musical interlude: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYQPeUOebcg"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
 
Interesting documentary:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJhAa3nzF2c"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
 
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWWrOWnWu1E"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
 
Rather, racism originated with capitalism and the slave trade. As the writer CLR James put it, "The conception of dividing people by race begins with the slave trade. This thing was so shocking, so opposed to all the conceptions of society which religion and philosophers had…that the only justification by which humanity could face it was to divide people into races and decide that the Africans were an inferior race."

Slavery is the antithesis of capitalism. Capitalism relies on mutually agreed upon exchanges at every level while slavery deprives labor of this right.



Luther, did you read the article I posted about the upcoming Supreme Court decision? What do you think should be the outcome at the New Haven Fire Department and why?
 
UN Report points to "stark racial disparities" in U.S. institutions, including its criminal justice system

Invalid Link Removed

"The U.S. is failing to meet international standards on racial equality, according to the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) based in Geneva, Switzerland.

Oh, I'm so worried about the UN's opinion. This is the same body that has the most blatant and horrific human rights violators on its human rights commission, correct? Of course the actual report and the criteria by which they are judging the US hasn't been quoted in depth.

The CERD had harshly criticised the U.S. for violating Native Americans' land rights."

Can't speak to that, but it's hardly new news. Congratulations, you may have posted something that legitimately proves your point.

Rather, racism originated with capitalism and the slave trade.

Capitalism is based on secure property rights and private ownership of the means of production. Slavery is the denial of the most basic property right, self ownership, and denial of the most basic ownership of the means of production, owning one's own labor. Thus capitalism and slavery can't exist at the same time, they are completely opposed in definition and in fact are vitural opposites. Slavery is in fact the ultimate version of socialism, the individual or oligarchal ownership of the ultimate means of production, the self, as opposed to self ownership. This means the author you quoted either has a far left agenda and wants to conflate capitalism with the various forms of fascism/socialism that have existed to date, or is a complete ****ing idiot and doesn't even know what the words mean.

As the writer CLR James put it, "The conception of dividing people by race begins with the slave trade.

No, it doesn't. It actually begins in Africa with opposing tribes and their prisoners. The author you quoted is once more either a far leftist or the most ignorant piece of **** on this subject you could possibly dredge up. Racial/ethinic difference has been a driving factor in human existence ever since two people's of a different color/belief system or whatever met up and decided they didn't much like each other.

History proves this point. Prior to the advent of capitalism, racism as a systematic form of oppression did not exist. For example, ancient Greek and Roman societies had no concept of race or racial oppression.

Really? They why did Alexander the Great decide to conquer Asia and all its asians? The ancient Greeks did not have the word race or a directly equivalent concept. They still used the term "Barbarian" quite liberally to refer to anyone who looked mildly different or thought differently than they did, and to differentiate themselves on an ethnic basis. See Ethnos in the politics: Aristotle and Race, Julie K. Ward.

Racism began with the expansionism that led Europe to explore and colonize the world. Europeans needed an excuse for conquering a land and subjugating its inhabitants in violation of the Christian ideal, so they began to demonize the "strange" people they found in the Americas, Africa, and Asia.

Yup, before whitey left Europe everything was peaches and *******s...

You seem to be saying "stop whining about racism". Stop "whining" about racism translates to ignore it?

No, I said stop whining about the lobotomy box specifically if I recall. With regard to racism I said, in longer terms, while it still exists you need to stop looking for it around every corner and under every sheet of random paper.

Should the Jews also stop "whining" about anti-semitism in your opinion?

Yes, actually. Their fixation on it and the holocaust has lead to some very poor policy decisions here in the US and Israel. See The Holocaust is Over We Must Rise from Its Ashes, Avraham Burg.

I am increasingly convinced that the language of my land. . . is based on a false premise. Israel accentuates and perpetuates the confrontational philosophy that is summed up in the phrase, ‘The entire world is against us.’
...
The Shoah and the establishment of our state created a mechanism that necessitates force and obsessive defense at any cost for every Jew wherever he is.

"Avraham "Avrum" Burg was an Israeli Knesset member, former Chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel and former Speaker of the Knesset." - Invalid Link Removed

Analysis conducted earlier this year by The Seattle Times of 1.7 million traffic stops, which found that blacks, Latinos and Native Americans were 2.5 times more likely to be searched than whites, while whites were more likely to have contraband when searched.

Which is nut surprising considering whites are the majority race. However does this 'report' state why the initial stops occurred and why searches were initiated? You see, if those reasons are legit, then the stat proves ****. And as I've already conceded, the war on drugs is racist and racially targetted. It always has been. And I'm against it, through and through, now and forever. In fact I'd love to see it truly ended to see how that would affect crimes rates among blacks after a huge profit incentive to commit crimes was removed from their lives. My guess is you'd see a massive drop initially thanks the cartels and dealers being out of business, followed by a steady drop over time among blacks and latinos exclusively.
 
Slavery is in fact the ultimate version of socialism, the individual or oligarchal ownership of the ultimate means of production, the self, as opposed to self ownership. This means the author you quoted either has a far left agenda and wants to conflate capitalism with the various forms of fascism/socialism that have existed to date, or is a complete ****ing idiot and doesn't even know what the words mean.

Not quite. Collectivization does not necessarily, or even marginally, suggest a lack of self-ownership: it suggests an altered distribution of property ownership and an altered distribution as to the transfer of the [...individual...] capacity to labor. (Altered in regard to Capitalism.) If we are speaking about ideal models [which your post above suggest you are], to suggest that slavery is the ultimate form of Socialism is a stretch at best. In fact, and as I have suggested to Rob before, pure Socialism and pure Capitalism are both the highest determinations of democracy, merely in differing magnitudes of organization. Both necessarily assume a distribution of the rights of property ownership [including the contract] that tends toward equality and free access; both assume ultimate ownership of the capacity to 'do work' [unsure where you are making the slavery to Socialism conflation], and; in both systems, the worker-as-such is represented in the highest level via economic process, differentiated upon orders of organizational magnitude. As you know, the economic process I am referring to is the objectified sale/transfer of the capacity to labor in non-coercive, non-manipulative manners. It is the deviation away from the ideal scenario on either spectrum which introduces the market despotism we are left with today. The key differences are the profit mechanisms [essentially non-existent in pure Socialism] in each model, as self-ownership is ultimate in each.

Now, this is the part where you will say, "Theoretical Socialism and actually existing socialism are two entirely different concepts." To which I would reply, "As are theoretical Capitalism [which you spoke about above] and actually existing 'Capitalism'." We would both be right. The U.S.S.R., could most certainly be characterized with your description of "Socialism" above, and you will find no argument from me there; however, the same can be said about any despotic totalitarian state, socialist or otherwise.

As I say, as long as we are discussing theoretical models, we should not muddy our terms of analysis. That is, unless you can produce some indication within the writings of Marx, Mandel, Trotsky and so on that are indicative of "slavery". (Again, I agree that instantiations of this economic theory have been closer to what you have described, thus far.)
 
As an aside, pure C and pure S find pure instantiation on the micro-level only, where the economic process described above is carried out in reciprocal exchange. At the level of the macroeconomy, both systems tend toward failure because the imperative of the individual firm contradict necessarily with the operation of the macroeconomy.
 
Not quite. Collectivization does not necessarily, or even marginally, suggest a lack of self-ownership: it suggests an altered distribution of property ownership and an altered distribution as to the transfer of the [...individual...] capacity to labor.

In point of fact it does. If you do not own yourself, the individual being the most basic unit of the means of production or the ultimate capital good, then the only other possible options are: ownership by another; oligarchal ownership in which the individual may or may not have some quotal share of ownership in themselves. There simply are no other options.

If we are speaking about ideal models [which your post above suggest you are], to suggest that slavery is the ultimate form of Socialism is a stretch at best.

It is the ultimate result of socialism. Socialism can't help but break down to oligarchic rule as any other method of organization is impractical; it would be impossible to run a steel plant if every move within the plant required every person in the collective cast their quotal ownership vote. Oligarchy becomes the means of management. Even though benevolent oligarchal rule is possible, the end result is ownership and allocation of the means of production by one group at the default expense of another. The level at which this is exercised is largely irrelevant. Even if the oligarchy only claims 'ownership' over the actual tools used in production, this necessarily limits the freedom of any individual to produce for themselves and engage in voluntary trade with others. It is a de facto if not de jure claim of ownership over the person themselves.

This is the essential distinction between socialism along the European model of socialism with de jure claims of ownership, and the Nazi model which was de jure claims over legal ends which lead to de facto ownership of the means of production, or in other words regulation just short of nationalization which essentially directed production and restricted individual freedom to produce as readily as any outright nationalization would have.

The ultimate means of production is the individual who owns his own labor. Self ownership is the most basic property claim it is possible to make. Violation of each is just socialism taken to its logical conclusion; "I or we, own you, the means of production. And you will produce for our chosen ends, not yours."

In fact, and as I have suggested to Rob before, pure Socialism and pure Capitalism are both the highest determinations of democracy, merely in differing magnitudes of organization. Both necessarily assume a distribution of the rights of property ownership [including the contract] that tends toward equality and free access;

No, they don't. Nothing in capitalism, aside from rosy pictures painted by proponents, guarantees or assumes anything. 'Access' often depends on means, all capitalism guarantees is that means are best improved, supply increased, through private voluntary exchange. It does not guarantee equality. In fact inequality is at its core. In easy to understand terms not everyone will be able to buy a Rolls Royce, but the market is the best means to ensure that adequate supplies of Chevies and Hondas and Rolls Royces will be available for all to choose from. Likewise for privately provided justice and health care, those with the most means available will always be able to afford the better, Rolls Royce options in both fields. All capitalism says is that the private market ensures an increase in supply in both that over time ensures increased access, not equal access, for all. Access by definition in capitalism is unequal.

both assume ultimate ownership of the capacity to 'do work'

No one this one two. Socialism assumes capacity is unequal and thus the differentiation between contributing according your abilities and taking according your needs. If ultimate ownership of the capacity were assumed socialism could not establish any legal framework for forcing anyone to work at a rate other than that for which they voluntarily contracted. Capitalism depends on, but does not assume the ultimate ownership of one's capacity to work. The ability to work is technically alienable, and thus tradable.

the worker-as-such is represented in the highest level via economic process,

The worker has no representation in capitalism except to the extent he helps determine demand.

Now, this is the part where you will say, "Theoretical Socialism and actually existing socialism are two entirely different concepts." To which I would reply, "As are theoretical Capitalism [which you spoke about above] and actually existing 'Capitalism'."

Nope again. Theoretically socialism can not work. It suffers from systemic and philosophical problems. Philosophically man must be rewired for it to work, systemically even if that rewiring were possible the systemic problems of resource allocation absent a pricing mechanism. Systemically capitalism works fine and is self regulating. Philosophically man's propensity to steal through various means needs to be dealt with.

As I say, as long as we are discussing theoretical models, we should not muddy our terms of analysis. That is, unless you can produce some indication within the writings of Marx, Mandel, Trotsky and so on that are indicative of "slavery". (Again, I agree that instantiations of this economic theory have been closer to what you have described, thus far.)

Theoretical or practical, the problems with socialism are two fold, the problems with capitalism aren't. Man's propensity to steal, specifically through state means, is what needs to be dealt with and limited. To date the means of limitation has been revolution. Not ideal, but workable in the short term.
 
EDIT: Nevermind the e-mail, CDB. I respect your knowledge, but you and I are diametrically opposed in certain areas; this is one of them! So, the below is pretty much what I have to say!

In point of fact it does. If you do not own yourself, the individual being the most basic unit of the means of production or the ultimate capital good, then the only other possible options are: ownership by another; oligarchal ownership in which the individual may or may not have some quotal share of ownership in themselves. There simply are no other options.

Collectivization in no way implies a collectivization of the primary capital good, but the collectivization of the aggregate social capital [fixed, flow, however one wishes to choose to define the means or production]. This in no way predicts a lack of self-ownership as you imply here - de facto or otherwise. I discuss the necessary product of collectivization below, though.

And so, the collectivized ownership of the means of production does not, in fact, imply proxy ownership of the capacity to work in indefinite terms. It means only that the course of production is determined at the level of macroeconomy, but the contract is not forcefully ensured against the laborer's will at the level of the micro-economy. That is slavery, not Socialism; they are not the same process.

There is a bit of red-herring at foot here: the immediate logical jump from self-ownership to lack of self-ownership, and then the deconstruction of the forms of organization which would be adherent thereto. Initial writings of the [empirio-scientific] Socialist project suggest a democratic worker's state. Now, as you mention below, this becomes difficult in direct representation as it is highly impractical on the macro-level; however, neither does a President, for example, phone each one of his constituents whom voted for him individually so that they may forward their opinion on the country's operation - it is the purpose of "constituent agency" and democracy as a whole to address this issue of representation via election. Does a party own one after voting for them? Of course not, you vote for them to represent your interests by proxy. A centralized control of the means of production is not de jure ownership of the variable capital adherent thereto.

Unfortunately, and as you know, Marx was painfully vague in this regard, but the writings of Mandel expand on the democratic Socialist state further [see: From Stalinism to Eurocommunism.]. The overlaying political structure must necessarily be direct-democracy in a certain stratified fashion, so that the "worker's state" can be enacted both effectively and practically.

It is the ultimate result of socialism. Socialism can't help but break down to oligarchic rule as any other method of organization is impractical; it would be impossible to run a steel plant if every move within the plant required every person in the collective cast their quotal ownership vote. Oligarchy becomes the means of management. Even though benevolent oligarchal rule is possible, the end result is ownership and allocation of the means of production by one group at the default expense of another. The level at which this is exercised is largely irrelevant.

Bureaucratic oligarchies have characterized "actually existing socialism" thus far, this is correct; however, as I say, interpreting the collectivization of the means or production as slavery is a misinterpretation of both terms. Slavery as a concept defines three things that a pure socialist system does not: an exclusively controlled distribution of return to only one party in the productive relationship; a unilateral ownership and control of the means of production, and; as we have discussed, proxy ownership of the labor good itself via coercion. No such elements exist in a socialist system.

Further, oligarchy immediately implies an absence of democratic representation. Again, not present in system aside from those predicated on market despotism. Unfortunately, the socialist project has yet to determine a mechanism by which functional representation of a worker's state could be practically realized. The so-called, "Trotskyist" school of neo-Marxists in addition to Mandel are large proponents of agglomerated unions at the parliamentary level in order to overcome the oligarchial tendency within "actually existent socialism" thus far. The book I speak about above describes such systems.

Even if the oligarchy only claims 'ownership' over the actual tools used in production, this necessarily limits the freedom of any individual to produce for themselves and engage in voluntary trade with others. It is a de facto if not de jure claim of ownership over the person themselves.

Again, if the transfer of labor power is vis-a-vis voluntary contract, than self-ownership remains predominant - I am not assuming direction of production to be ownership. For example, if a Capitalist hat maker employs me, I am given license to operate his means of production, in accordance with his goals, in exchange for my labor magnitude at a set quantity determined by the availability of my [...type of...] labor good and other market factors [i.e., a wage]. I am free to move elsewhere, and the employer does not own my physical body, only the products of it. In Socialism, the process would be the same, except that this capital is redistributed in the sphere of exchange in a manner that deliberately tends toward equality [at the price of productivity] which I describe below.

The exact same limitation of freedom exists necessarily in a capitalist system, though, if one chooses to interpret "work" in the manner you do. In both systems, the worker does not directly appropriate his own value save for in subsistence economies [i.e., Feudalism or crude Agrarian states]. He only realizes the value of his labor in a greater sphere of exchange, itself predicated on the appropriation of the value of more labor power still. And aside from the so-called "petty bourgeois", he does not control the means of production [save for his own physical body], nor the purpose of his "work".

In each system, the laborer is free to use his labor-power in the manner he so chooses: in Capitalism, he must adhere to the goals of production which are negotiated and maintained on a firm-by-firm basis; in Socialism, the goals of production are maintained centrally. Central planning does not suggest "one worker, one job", however. So, if we assume the de-facto slavery-esque quality to Socialism that you claim, the same process exists in Capitalism just, as I said, in differing degrees of central organization. There is also nothing in the primary works of the Socialist project to suggest that subsistence labor on the micro-level would be forbidden, or that the voluntary contract as-a-whole is abolished; quite the opposite, in fact. Again, if we are debating actually existent "Socialism" [it is not, but, I digress] I do agree with much of what you have said.

In the hat example, I would not decide which hats to make, when to make them, how to make them or which colour they are, no matter if it was Socialist or Capitalist; if I disliked the type of hats being made and/or the wage-bill I command for my work, I could go elsewhere. This process is repeated in either system.

No, they don't. Nothing in capitalism, aside from rosy pictures painted by proponents, guarantees or assumes anything. 'Access' often depends on means, all capitalism guarantees is that means are best improved, supply increased, through private voluntary exchange.

I am not sure how you interpreted "access" in the context I used it, but "free access" to the voluntary contract must exist for Capitalism to exist. Not entirely sure how you interpreted "access" in this context.

It does not guarantee equality. In fact inequality is at its core.

Typo, as equality was meant to say, "equilibrium".

Access by definition in capitalism is unequal.

Again, it appears you interpreted "access" to mean equal access to the goods of production.

No one this one two. Socialism assumes capacity is unequal and thus the differentiation between contributing according your abilities and taking according your needs. If ultimate ownership of the capacity were assumed socialism could not establish any legal framework for forcing anyone to work at a rate other than that for which they voluntarily contracted. Capitalism depends on, but does not assume the ultimate ownership of one's capacity to work. The ability to work is technically alienable, and thus tradable.

Socialism regards the ability to objectify the capacity to work [i.e., to actually labor] as a magnitude, but regards "capacity to work" as an abstract universal quality. As such, the reduction you quoted above is realized in the sphere of exchange, and not on the level of micro-contract, as each would [...theoretically...] be payed a wage according to the universal 'capacity to work', and contribute in a magnitude defined by their physical person - i.e., from each according to capacity, to each according to needs. In this manner, productivity is necessarily sacrificed at the expense of equality. The philosophical recognition of capacity must be universal and equal, CDB, that is the categorical definition of Socialism itself. Problems obviously arise in regard to relativizing this abstract quality to some predetermined quantitative magnitude, though. (I.e., how would one set a universal wage-bill for a given occupation?)

I see your motivation for saying this is slavery, insofar as this process described above means some are laboring for less than their worth in the context of the immediate exchange - as I said, though, this means that a Socialist framework would need to normalize this parasitic relationship in the sphere of exchange so that the overall distribution of the resultant social capital tends toward equality. (Universal provision of health care, education, infrastructure and so on at the expense of the immediate capital gain enacted through voluntary contract, in other words.)

So, a legal framework to enforce the contract would not, then, be based on forcing individual laborers to work involuntarily beyond their means, but; would attempt to normalize the loss of the potential for individual gain in a manner that resulted in an equalized, though lessened [...potential...] standard of living. Thus, to express the point in more simple terms, the only practical legal framework would be a parliamentary Socialistic approach, described above, founded on two principle ideas: large nationalization of strategic and necessary industries [energy, telecommunications, infrastructure] and a parliamentary government based fundamentally on labor compacts.

Countries demonstrative of this approach, again, sacrifice the possibility for potential standard of living for a higher absolute average-actual standard of living. In this regard, Norway's nationalized approach to key industries is an exemplar: it has one of the consistently highest PPP averages, has a large proportion of millionaires, high standard of living, and universal health care/education. Despite Norway's incredibly high proportion of millionaires in nominal dollars, the taxation system on all commodity types and earnings tends to curb this trend toward equality on a systemic scale. The results have been discussed.

Finally, the productive capacity of the macroeconomy is thus obviously less in a Socialist economy as a function of equality - i.e., maybe there is only Honda and Civic, no Rolls Royce, but everybody has a fully functioning version of the former two. But, this is not to suggest that a Parliamentary Socialist system need be undemocratic and/or contain a small proportion of total goods to access [again see: Norway]. Which ideological set you privilege, however, depends on whether or not you feel Rolls Royces [using these as an example] serve a valid philosophical role in man's life. From what I glean from you, they serve no purpose save for validating the ultimate right of free choice at the expense of equality. Myself, on the other hand, is willing to sacrifice Rolls Royces to provide Universal Health Care and education, for example.

The worker has no representation in capitalism except to the extent he helps determine demand.

Yes, exactly - i.e., representation through the economic process.

Nope again. Theoretically socialism can not work. It suffers from systemic and philosophical problems. Philosophically man must be rewired for it to work, systemically even if that rewiring were possible the systemic problems of resource allocation absent a pricing mechanism. Systemically capitalism works fine and is self regulating. Philosophically man's propensity to steal through various means needs to be dealt with.

Crude Socialism as a form of exchange seems to pervade history, but; as I say below, the operation of a pure socialist system on the scale of the micro scale/community is antithetical to the practical operation of the macroeconomy. As a reaction, bureaucratic oligarchy is enacted to direct production and remove self-ownership. Again, this is not Socialism. Can it work on the level of the modern macroeconomy? No, probably not.

Theoretical or practical, the problems with socialism are two fold, the problems with capitalism aren't. Man's propensity to steal, specifically through state means, is what needs to be dealt with and limited. To date the means of limitation has been revolution. Not ideal, but workable in the short term.

Man steals no matter from each other or the state - a complete lack of regulation necessarily predicts coercion in the temporary, particularly on the level of the micro-firm [though entire markets do not tend toward coercion - it is impractical]. Again, we come back to the contradiction of either system in regard to the interaction of the micro and macroeconomy, and the introduction of government regulation in varying magnitudes to "correct" these issues. What is good for a pure Capitalist macroeconomy is precisely what does not, and never would occur on the level of the micro-firm, unfortunately. Both systems necessitate a man-in-general that does not exist, unfortunately.

To expand, a self-regulating, perfect Capitalist system assumes [edit: depends upon] a lack of certain fundamental characteristics of man: manipulation, coercion, and the application of force [whether physical or intellectual]. Again, on the level of the individual firm Capitalism's logic contradicts with its systemic operation. Pure Capitalism is impossible for precisely the same reasons as a pure Socialist system: they both suffer from issues endemic to their nature, because they suffer from issues endemic to human nature.

Finally, Marxism's fatal flaw, as regard by Sowell, is the not that it tends toward despotism and/or oligarchy in-and-of-itself, but that it fails to predict its manipulation so. As you said, the issue is not endemic to Socialism, but endemic to man's predisposition to organize in certain institutions. When even Sowell accords this consideration to Marx's work, I am sure you can muster the same. I feel you are conflating "actually existing Socialism" with the philosophical bases of Socialism, and presenting the two criticisms unilaterally.
 
Sorry to jump in on this and double team you Mullet, but you know I have to fight for capitalism :)

To expand, a self-regulating Capitalist system assumes a lack of certain fundamental characteristics of man: manipulation, coercion, and the application of force [whether physical or intellectual].

From what you wrote, I assume you're referring to the complete lack of any government entity, which is altogether untenable in the face of external threats to national self-government. When I speak of capitalism, I speak of a government capable of enforcing contract law and physical application of force through the police and a court system, and protecting individual liberties of citizens from external threats from abroad.

As far as avoiding manipulation? Pay the premium to deal with a reputable firm that was rated highly by an independent, for-profit rating agency.

Again, on the level of the individual firm Capitalism's logic is applied perfectly: an exchange of the labor commodity for the money-capital commodity in a definitive quantitative magnitude defined by various factors.

Actually, two factors: supply and demand.

The assumption here is the operation of the voluntary contract, and the reciprocal exchange between the individual capitalist firm and the laborer.

That's more than an assumption in a capitalist society. There is no other legal kind of contract other than a voluntary one.

However, this arises in systemic issues as inter-capitalist competition at this level, coercion, manipulation and so forth tend toward altering the self-regulation of the macroeconomy.

That is completely untrue. With consensual transactions occurring at all levels, supply and demand ensures the macroeconomic safety of the entire market. IE that workers make the correct wages, that goods are not too cheap or expensive, and that the proper quantity and quality of goods and services are always maintained.

Coercion and manipulation cannot systematically occur in capitalism.

Pure Capitalism is impossible for precisely the same reasons as a pure Socialist system. They both suffer from issues endemic to their nature, and these issues are exaggerated/lauded by adherents and critics on each respective side.

There are no systemic issues endemic to capitalism, there are only issues with government interference in the free market.
 
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