Warning - Serotonin Syndrome

[DR.D]

Maybe this would be good for anxiety/stress:

" Folic acid... take 400 mcg/day
chromium...200-500 mgs/day
vit B6 100 mg/day
vit B12, preferably sublingual tabs or shots...1000mcg/day or every other day with injectibles.
Selenium 100 mg/day"
+ ALCAR 500mg twice daily
+ Rhodiola rosea 400-600mg three times daily
+ ALA 300mg three times daily
+ 10 grams minimum fish oil

How does that look? Also anything else that stacks well with Rhodiola for stress/anxiety?

That schedule looks good, but Bio is the one to ask about Rhodiola. I have not had much luck with it so far, but have not experimented that hard with it yet. Also, don't forget about a nightly Magnesium Oxide supp @400-800mg to help with stress. Potassium is good too.

 

[bioman]

Yeah, B-complex and multivitamin tabs are useless in my experience. I just don't think they are as bioavailable as seperate tablets. I have much better results taking them seperately and spread out 2x per day. I also usually have and Emergen-C packet at some point during the day..around lunch or later and this is a nice boost as well.

I'm finding the secret to RR usage lies in spreading out the dose at least 3x per day. I had some in my cabinet for a couple of years but was never impressed with it because I only took it once per day in the AM. By noon or late afternoon I would crash..feel shitty and thus just avoid taking the RR.

After I mixed it into my green tea and Forselean(another decent antidepressant) and took the mix 3-5x day I felt incredible..and I mean really damned good. Kinda that happy, youthful energy everyone supp junkie seems to chase after.

Other observations on that mix;

-greatly enhanced energy levels
-greatly enhanced endurance when doing strenuous hiking at altitude
-a nice, steady cognitive boost boosting not only mood, but writing ability, personality, and dare I say sense of humor.

Avoid ending it abruptly as I crashed pretty good for the last 3 weeks. Had some domestic issues so that didn't help either. Now I'm back on just green tea and RR and it's good but not as good as with the Forselean IMO...but then I am using an ECA right now.

Another addition to the GT/RR/ Forselean mix might be a little L-Theanine but all in all the mix of the three is pretty awesome.

Enjoy.

 

[RipdnTxs2]

have u guys tried Ergopharm Amp while on these meds, I have taken it four times at 3 caps at once, one time I felt GREAT, almost like meth. great, the other times were not very good at all, would it not be a good idea to use this while on prescribe meds.......

 

[DR.D]

have u guys tried Ergopharm Amp while on these meds, I have taken it four times at 3 caps at once, one time I felt GREAT, almost like meth. great, the other times were not very good at all, would it not be a good idea to use this while on prescribe meds.......

Use very cautiously with other stims, adrenergics, and alkaloids.

 

[bioman]

Just checked up on my wife at lunch. She is developing withdrawal symptoms pretty badly that are pretty consistent with everything I've read on forums with hundreds of people bitching about terrible sides from quitting Effexor...basically serotonin syndrome.

I am still slightly concerned about a potential RR/Effexor interaction but so far, everythign I've read seems to indicate the RR is safe even in conjunction with potent SSRI's. If she gets very ill I will stop RR as a precaution.

Dr D..are there any OTC serotonin antogonists that I can use to ease her symptoms in the meantime??

 

[DR.D]

Just checked up on my wife at lunch. She is developing withdrawal symptoms pretty badly that are pretty consistent with everything I've read on forums with hundreds of people bitching about terrible sides from quitting Effexor...basically serotonin syndrome.

I am still slightly concerned about a potential RR/Effexor interaction but so far, everythign I've read seems to indicate the RR is safe even in conjunction with potent SSRI's. If she gets very ill I will stop RR as a precaution.

Dr D..are there any OTC serotonin antogonists that I can use to ease her symptoms in the meantime??

Not any that are coming to me, did she reduce the dose cuts? It sounds like she will need very slow dose drops to get through this. Clonidine is a wonder drug with this kinda stuff. I once saw a guy kick a 20 vicoden/day habit with Catapres.

 

[bioman]

Thanks Dr. D.

I'll keep that one in mind should things get bad.

Presently, she came home from work with very few symptoms other than generalized malaise..so I'm back to thinking RR is helping but who knows. She had a brief spell of nausea and sweating but no motor skill/vision probelms so far.

It's somewhat difficult to monitor for serotonin syndrome-like symptoms when Effexor is known to give them outright, when halting therapy and also when combinging with seratonergics.

I have found absolutely nothing to back "concerns" brought up about mixing RR and antidepressants so I'm relaxing about that at least.

It would quite serendipitous if RR helps people ween off these drugs more safely.

Nuerochemistry is fickle though.

 

[darius]

Yeah, B-complex and multivitamin tabs are useless in my experience. I just don't think they are as bioavailable as seperate tablets. I have much better results taking them seperately and spread out 2x per day. I also usually have and Emergen-C packet at some point during the day..around lunch or later and this is a nice boost as well.

I'm finding the secret to RR usage lies in spreading out the dose at least 3x per day. I had some in my cabinet for a couple of years but was never impressed with it because I only took it once per day in the AM. By noon or late afternoon I would crash..feel shitty and thus just avoid taking the RR.

After I mixed it into my green tea and Forselean(another decent antidepressant) and took the mix 3-5x day I felt incredible..and I mean really damned good. Kinda that happy, youthful energy everyone supp junkie seems to chase after.

Other observations on that mix;

-greatly enhanced energy levels
-greatly enhanced endurance when doing strenuous hiking at altitude
-a nice, steady cognitive boost boosting not only mood, but writing ability, personality, and dare I say sense of humor.

Avoid ending it abruptly as I crashed pretty good for the last 3 weeks. Had some domestic issues so that didn't help either. Now I'm back on just green tea and RR and it's good but not as good as with the Forselean IMO...but then I am using an ECA right now.

Another addition to the GT/RR/ Forselean mix might be a little L-Theanine but all in all the mix of the three is pretty awesome.

Enjoy.

Lots of great info in this thread. Yeah I know what you mean about the RR. I took some the first time when I went to work, before the last hour it wore off and I felt really bad. It really does need to be taken 3x daily.

What is Forselean? I did a search on google and couldn't find alot. Yeah I think I will pick up some green tea from Custom. I love drinking the stuff, but I don't think I'm getting enough of the anti-oxidants/benefits from just a cup or 2.

Bioman, hope your wife gets through this ok. We'll keep her in our prayers.

 

[Ghosting]

I'm disappointed because I want to try phenibut, but now I'm afraid. Is anyone aware of a potential reaction b/t Phenibut / lexapro/ wellbutrin?

Phenibut causes GABA's presence. GABA is a neurotransmitter INHIBITOR (the 1fast site is wrong). IOW is will block the transmittion of signals. You are totally fine to take it with lexa & wellbu.

 

[DR.D]

Phenibut causes GABA's presence. GABA is a neurotransmitter INHIBITOR (the 1fast site is wrong). IOW is will block the transmittion of signals. You are totally fine to take it with lexa & wellbu.

GABA is part of the RAS. Drugs affecting it will attenuate the effects of Lexapro ane Wellbutarin.

 

[Ghosting]

GABA is part of the RAS. Drugs affecting it will attenuate the effects of Lexapro ane Wellbutarin.

I dont doubt your knowledge . Ive taken zolpidem tartrate (aka Ambien). Ambein binds preferentially to the omega-1 (BZ-1) receptor subtype of the GABA receptor complex. I am on fluoxetine (aka Prozac) and have taken Ambein with no ill effects. So a better statement would be, I have been fine taking it. Thinking about it, its only a 20mg dose and the effects of combinding the 2 may be nowhere near my threshold for seratonin. Oops. Bad advice.

 

[DR.D]

Yeah, Ambien is some crazy stuff alright! I agreed with your comment, my point was really just that it can influence those other systems, not that they were incompatable.

QUOTE=Ghosting]I dont doubt your knowledge . Ive taken zolpidem tartrate (aka Ambien). Ambein binds preferentially to the omega-1 (BZ-1) receptor subtype of the GABA receptor complex. I am on fluoxetine (aka Prozac) and have taken Ambein with no ill effects. So a better statement would be, I have been fine taking it. Thinking about it, its only a 20mg dose and the effects of combinding the 2 may be nowhere near my threshold for seratonin. Oops. Bad advice.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ghosting]

Yeah, Ambien is some crazy stuff alright! I agreed with your comment, my point was really just that it can influence those other systems, not that they were incompatable.

I didnt realize inhibitors would impact transmitters. Thanks for the info.

 

[DR.D]

I didnt realize inhibitors would impact transmitters. Thanks for the info.

It doesn't diectly. It modulates incoming signals from external stimuli, so it justs blunts the expression of those transmitters. They are necessarily limited as a result of that type of inhibition. So they are OK to use together, but the GABA stimulation (what you are calling inhibition) is oppositional to the effectiveness of the others.

 

[Ghosting]

It doesn't diectly. It modulates incoming signals from external stimuli, so it justs blunts the expression of those transmitters. They are necessarily limited as a result of that type of inhibition. So they are OK to use together, but the GABA stimulation (what you are calling inhibition) is oppositional to the effectiveness of the others.

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying GABA will make them "less effective" (I know that is a terrablie desciption ).

 

[Ghosting]

Or I should say we see them as less effective.

 

[DR.D]

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying GABA will make them "less effective" (I know that is a terrablie desciption ).

No, you said it just fine. That is the bottom line. It will reduce the aptitude of their effects. These drugs work in part by promoting the release of these transmitters. With the GABA reducing the signals that come in, these higher systems are not stimulated as much as they could be with these drugs. That's why a benzo (GABA agonist) live Ativan or Ambiem promotes sleep and can be used to control withdrawl from many of these CNS stims.

 

[bioman]

DARIUS- Forselean is just a concentrated brand of Coleus forskohli. You could simply take cAMPIBOLIC and add a seperate dose of Rhodiola in a few times per day. I might switch to that strategy just save my capping supplies.

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers regarding my wife.

She is doing quite well and we may even drop her off the Effexor entirely within the next day or two. RR seems to be keeping the usual withdrawal symptoms at bay, however she is either going through "detox" or she has a cold that is staying at exactly the same intesity for 3 days now. I think it's a detox reaction myself but it's hard to know.

Mentally..she's doing great and this has been a blessing. I'ts good to see her relaxed and happy again. Without a doubt I'll be keeping us both on RR forever. Hopefully it does not lose it's effectiveness over time. All the literature I've perused suggests that even though you have to stay on it for the benfits, there are no signs of dimishing effects.

Thanks again everyone, for you help and input. AM rocks!

 

[DR.D]

That sounds great Bio! I love happy endings...

 

[Ghosting]

Its too bad regular OTC GABA doesnt pass the BBB, it would be pretty popular if it did.

 

[RipdnTxs2]

glad to here your wife is doing better, my wife is on prozac, her family has a history of pretty major depression, she sleeps every time she gets a chance, on weekends at lunch and even when she comes home from work in the evenings and still goes to bed around 8:30 p.m. if she can, anyone have any suggestions on what I could give her to help with this, it is hard living with a person like this and I would really like to help her. Thanks

 

[bioman]

RIPD- I'd start with the list of vitamins and aminos listed above. Regular dosing of folic acid, selenium and chromium are crucial so treat it just like taking meds..religiously. I feel comfortable enough suggesting these 3 as they can't hurt you in any way. If they help..it's wonderful...if not, well then there's always meds and what-not.

Even though it's early in my own "experiment" I would still highly recommend Rhodiola rosacea at 100-200 mg, 3 times per day. It's seriously the most under rated herbal depression and anxiety treatment around IMO.

Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) dosed at 1-4 grams per day will certainly help give her more energy and "awake time".

I used to have fairly severe depression like hers..where I'd just craved sleep rather than dealing with reality. ALCAR, the vitamins, and now Rhodiola have turned that around 180 degrees for me.

Key issue is taking the supps faithfully everyday.

Good luck and if you need any more details don't hesitate to ask in this thread.


UPDATE: Wife did indeed have a cold..which she gave to me. That's the thanks I get, lol.

She has ceased Effexor dosing now for 3 days with no symptoms outside of her cold and a bit of fatigue. The Effexor definitelty drained her of energy very badly to where she would cry over not being able to do much besides go to work, come home, eat and go to bed...so yeah, that's a real helpful way to combat depression and anxiety. lol

RR has stopped her anxiety cold and brightened her mood nicely. She often had "heart palipitations" over the last year or so that neither a 24 hour heart monitoring nor a stress echo test could confirm or diagnose. Those appear to be gone.

Once the cold is gone, the last metabolites of Effexor out of her system, I'll be better able to monitor her improvements.

 

[DR.D]

glad to here your wife is doing better, my wife is on prozac, her family has a history of pretty major depression, she sleeps every time she gets a chance, on weekends at lunch and even when she comes home from work in the evenings and still goes to bed around 8:30 p.m. if she can, anyone have any suggestions on what I could give her to help with this, it is hard living with a person like this and I would really like to help her. Thanks

Get all her nutrients in place (like Bio has done for his wife) and if that isn't enough, you may consider an adrenergic stim like Adderal or Dexadrine. MAOI also work well for this type of depression, but they are rough on the liver and impose dietary restictions.

 

[RipdnTxs2]

Thanks for the replys, I just ordered some camph. and I will get some alcar., I will post back about results when she starts taking them....

 

[darius]

Dr. D, what is your opinion on using something like Phenibut for social anxiety? What would the dosing be? If the dosing is high, arn't there tolerance issues?

What about Klonopin? I have heard that this works well for social anxiety as well. What is your opinion on Klonopin?

Thanks

 

[DR.D]

How have you been D? Good to hear from you man. Klonopin works at about 1-2mg, same as Ativan. Good long half life too, so 1 dose in the late afternoon works well. 10mg Valium does the job too. I really like SSRI's like Luvox or Paxil for chronic agoraphobia though. Phenibut was inactive for me even at 3g doses, but many people think that it is well applied for social phobias like this. A few bourbon and cokes always helps loosen me up at a party or in public too, just about as well as anything else

Dr. D, what is your opinion on using something like Phenibut for social anxiety? What would the dosing be? If the dosing is high, arn't there tolerance issues?

What about Klonopin? I have heard that this works well for social anxiety as well. What is your opinion on Klonopin?

Thanks

 

[darius]

How have you been D? Good to hear from you man. Klonopin works at about 1-2mg, same as Ativan. Good long half life too, so 1 dose in the late afternoon works well.

edit: tried to make a new post and accidentally jacked this one lol

 

[shatfield]

I'm also going to try this meditation stuff out. Try to control my thinking and obsessive thoughts.

Meditation is what allowed me to control my anxiety. I practiced it enough that now I'm confident that I can calm myself down without meds. You should also try a "worst case scenario" thought process, trying to harness the survival instinct. LMK if you need any help on that, I've used it and it works great.

That being said- Dr. D- I just decided to drop my Cymbalta about 3 weeks ago. Went down from 60mg to 30mg for the first week, then second week just said "**** it" and went cold turkey. The withdrawl symptoms weren't terrible. I've been off completely for 2 weeks now and very rarely I get some of the electric shock sensations, but they are definitely not inhibiting in anyway. just thought you'd like to know.

 

[DR.D]

...I've been off completely for 2 weeks now and very rarely I get some of the electric shock sensations, but they are definitely not inhibiting in anyway. just thought you'd like to know.

Was this for OCD or what? I have never tried this one, but have used some other SSNERI's before, and never had a signifigant withdrawl either. I don't understand why you are getting electic sensations though. This class of compound never seems quite as suited for social disinhibition as a pure SSRI, but they are more activating which is better for depression IMO.

 

[shatfield]

I was taking it for depression and anxiety/panic disorder. I wasn't taking it for social issues, but more for generalized anxiety/panic attacks. I was on 150mg Effexor before, and switched over to this because it wasn't helping with depression as much as I would have liked. Electric shocks were common with both this and Effexor when I decreased or missed a dose. There was also some vertigo from stopping Effexor, but not so much with Cymbalta.

Was this for OCD or what? I have never tried this one, but have used some other SSNERI's before, and never had a signifigant withdrawl either. I don't understand why you are getting electic sensations though. This class of compound never seems quite as suited for social disinhibition as a pure SSRI, but they are more activating which is better for depression IMO.

 

[darius]

Dr. D, I tried Klonopin and it works awesome for me, but I read that taking benzodiazepines for long periods of time is really bad. Tolerance issues and addiction, with bad withdrawels. Is it really like that for people who really have social anxiety and not using it recreationally? I was thinking of using 1mg of Klonopin maybe 3x a week, for long term. Is there any way to safely come off of it after a few months use? Like cross tapering it with other drugs or just any way in general?

Thanks.

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D, I tried Klonopin and it works awesome for me, but I read that taking benzodiazepines for long periods of time is really bad. Tolerance issues and addiction, with bad withdrawels. Is it really like that for people who really have social anxiety and not using it recreationally? I was thinking of using 1mg of Klonopin maybe 3x a week, for long term. Is there any way to safely come off of it after a few months use? Like cross tapering it with other drugs or just any way in general?

Thanks.

I've tried them all just about, and took 2mg Ativan every night for 3 or 4 years straight. I just quit one day and it was a breeze. Higher doses than what I recommened could generate withdrawels after chronic use, but it is mainly a function of dose, not duration. Higher doses could be used occasionally or situationally without problems but not chronically. I have no long term ill effects from their use. In fact, I still take one (maybe 2 or 3 times a month) for specific needs only like public things or cluster headaches or when I must get sleep.

 

[sumguy]

Dr. D, I tried Klonopin and it works awesome for me, but I read that taking benzodiazepines for long periods of time is really bad. Tolerance issues and addiction, with bad withdrawels. Is it really like that for people who really have social anxiety and not using it recreationally? I was thinking of using 1mg of Klonopin maybe 3x a week, for long term. Is there any way to safely come off of it after a few months use? Like cross tapering it with other drugs or just any way in general?

Thanks.

Just make sure not to up your dose. Some people keep upping thier dose as tollerance increases, sometimes over 30 mg a day. If you quit cold turkey from a dose like that, it will kill you. Withdrawls from high doses of benzos are VERY dangerous.

 

[darius]

Dr. D,
I want my anxiety gone all day of course, can 1-2mg of Clonazepam a day (either all together or split doses) accomplish that? I would like my anxiety gone more at the first half of the day than the second half of the day, but of course all day if possible. So with that being said, when should I take the Clonazepam? I had a friend who gave me a few Clonazepam's so the most that I have ever taken per day is 1.5mg. I didn't have enough to really experiment with it, but I will be getting Clonazepam very soon and was just wondering when I should take it (and if I should take it all together or split it up). I don't want to go over 1.5mg right now and never more than 2mg a day.

I'm not too worried about addiction, but tolerance would suck. I've read tho on pubmed that tolerance shouldn't be all that bad for people using this with social phobia. In fact, there were documents that said over time people reduced their dosage and frequency (for social phobia). And this article below shows that withdrawing/withdrawel can be avoided and overcome fairly easily if smart about it. Just like PCT, and probably any other drug that one adds to their body, its smart to taper when coming off. I plan on using this for a while until I can start controlling things myself. When I come off, I will drop .25mg every three weeks till 0.

Discontinuation of Clonazepam in the Treatment of Social Phobia.
Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology. 18(5):373-378, October 1998.
Connor, Kathryn M. MD; Davidson, Jonathan R. T. MD; Potts, Nicholas L. S. MD; Tupler, Larry A. PhD; Miner, Cherri M. MD; Malik, Mary L. PhD; Book, Sarah W. MD; Colket, Jeffrey T. BS; Ferrell, Fay MD

Abstract:
Patients with social phobia who responded well to 6 months of open-label treatment with clonazepam were assigned to receive either continuation treatment (CT) with clonazepam for another 5 months, or to undergo discontinuation treatment (DT) using a clonazepam taper at the rate of 0.25 mg every 2 weeks, with double-blind placebo substitution. Clinical efficacy was compared between the CT and DT groups using three different social phobia scales. Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms were also measured. Relapse rates were 0 and 21.1% in the CT and DT groups, respectively. Subjects in the CT group generally showed a more favorable clinical response at midpoint and/or endpoint, although even in the DT group clinical response remained good. With respect to withdrawal symptoms, the rates were low in both groups (12.5% for CT and 27.7% for DT) with no real evidence suggesting significant withdrawal difficulties. At the end of 11 months of treatment with clonazepam, however, a more rapid withdrawal rate was associated with greater distress. This study offers preliminary evidence to suggest that continuation therapy with clonazepam in the treatment of social phobia is safe and effective, producing a somewhat greater clinical benefit than a slow-taper discontinuation regime. However, even in the DT group, withdrawal symptoms were not found to be a major problem. The study can be taken as supportive of benefit for long-term clonazepam treatment in social phobia, as well as being compatible with a reasonably good outcome after short-term treatment and slow taper. (J Clin Psychopharmacol 1998;18:373-378)

© Williams & Wilkins 1998. All Rights Reserved.

 

[DR.D]

It has 2 dynamics to consider. A 'tolerance' does develop after 2-12 wks usually, but only to the acute sedative properties. The other, social benefits stay strong though. At this point or sooner, steady state is achieved so that doses will change again. That means that doses will be low at first, then usually need to elevate, then you can back off a little, all in less than a month probably. Then you can stabilize at 1-2mg daily. I'd split them equally, like 6am & 6pm at first. The t1/2 is so long that once a day is fine once sedative effects diminish. Night or day is up to you and some experimentation is called for. BTW, Klonipin is a very good choice for this type of long-term therapy. Be aware that cortisol will be chronically lowered as well. :thumbsup:

 

[darius]

It has 2 dynamics to consider. A 'tolerance' does develop after 2-12 wks usually, but only to the acute sedative properties. The other, social benefits stay strong though. At this point or sooner, steady state is achieved so that doses will change again. That means that doses will be low at first, then usually need to elevate, then you can back off a little, all in less than a month probably. Then you can stabilize at 1-2mg daily. I'd split them equally, like 6am & 6pm at first. The t1/2 is so long that once a day is fine once sedative effects diminish. Night or day is up to you and some experimentation is called for. BTW, Klonipin is a very good choice for this type of long-term therapy. Be aware that cortisol will be chronically lowered as well. :thumbsup:

Hah awesome, everything I wanted to hear and more. Yeah I don't need the sedative effects being a student and all. The first time I took Klonopin it was 1.5mg before school, I took it a couple hours before class and right before I left I felt a little clumsy grabbing my bag and stuff, bumping into door enteries and stuff like that. Then driving to school I could have sworn my reaction time was off a bit when it came to braking, like "damn that car came up really quick" when I was stopping behind it. Also ran into the other lane just a bit, enough to hear my tires going over those small lane dividers. Social benefits were awesome at school, was a different animal all together. Came home, crashed for like 7 hours which was not good. But yeah, I've done Klonopin a couple times a week since then and haven't felt anywhere near as drowsy as I did the first couple times using it.

Just wondering if Valium was any good for long term type use also? I heard people that use Valium use like 50+ mg after a while and that is definitely somethign that I do not want to do. I tried 10mg Valium yesterday and by 3-4 hours later I was so insanely socialable (no euphoria, not what I'm looking for here). I was on this bus going to this convention thingy and my cousin sitting next to me, laughing, asked me if I was drunk. Then I had to do this job in the evening for these people and felt soooo sooo tired. I literally felt like I was gonna fall asleep coming back from the place and then when I came home I crashed on the couch till the middle of the night, woke up, and crashed on my bed. I had to do alot of work today at this large wedding, 600-700 people, that required a huge amount of responsibility, so I took .5mg 3 hours before. What would have been the most stressful day of my life was nothing more than nothing. So many problems arose, I broke into sweat, but I felt ZERO anxiety, and I was able to focus and fix everything before any major problems occured. It was amazing. Does Valium build tolerance in the social type effects? Or is Klonopin a better choice for long term use. Thanks.

Thanks for the advice, Dr.D.

 

[bioman]

I'd replace the Valium with Rhodiola..particularly for long term use. Just my 2 cents.

Some light reading.

www.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2333

 

[DR.D]

Valium has a good, long t1/2 too but it's more strongly muscle relaxing to me. 10mg BID would be about the same as 2mg Klon. I'd just prefer to take smaller doses of the more potent drug in a long term scenario. If you do go with Valium, I wouldn't exceed 40mg/d long term. Ativan or Klonipin are still my primary recommendations.

 

[DR.D]

I'd replace the Valium with Rhodiola..particularly for long term use. Just my 2 cents.

Some light reading.

www.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2333

"...enhanced the effects of these neurotransmitters on the brain by increasing the permeability of the blood brain barrier to precursors of DA and 5-HT."

That's a nice bonus. You could sculpt the effects based on the precursors you favored.

 

[darius]

DR.D thanks for all the advice. I have an urgent matter, could you please check your pm's at avant labs. Thank you very much.

 

[DR.D]

DR.D thanks for all the advice. I have an urgent matter, could you please check your pm's at avant labs. Thank you very much.

You got it bro. Check your mail.

 

[bioman]

Just an update..the Rhodiola mix really did seem to help ween my wife off of effexor with very few sides. She had no shocks or freeze frame vision, just some drowsiness and sporadic dizziness. I really feel the withdrawals would have been worse without RR.

Anxiety attacks ceased altogether once effoxor was finally ended and anxiety levels were low. Her mood improved remarkably, unfortunately she had a bad flare up of ulcerative colitis and she had to go on Prednisone which really put a damper on everything mood-wise.

We kept administering Rhodiola through the Pred cycle and I think it also helped to alleviate some of the sides of this awful drug. There were still wild mood swings with the occassional crying fit, but all in all she's cycling off of this well. In about 2 weeks, she'll be off of Pred for good so we'll see how RR does without all the interference.

I mixed up a new batch of Rhodiola so the caps are roughly

300 mg RR
100 mg Bacopa
100 mg inusitol
50 mg glycine

basically just trying to get rid of the inusitol and glycine, otherwise I would have stuck to a 50/50 RR/Bacopa mix.

 

[DR.D]

The Bac does seem to stabilize a bit when I tried it on my wife. I'm glad your wife has improved, but sorry about the Pred. That can be a rollercoaster ride and she needs to be off as soon as she's better. Thanks again for the update Bio.

 

[Dungeon1]

Dr. D, Have you ever heard of serotonin syndrome resulting from a combo of Prozac and Ephedra? A friend of mine was taking 20 mgs of prozac ED and began taking a product containing 100mg caffeine and 10mgs of ephedrine alkaloids and became violently ill. Of course when she mentioned to the doctor that she had been taking EC, they assumed the EC and Prozac was to blame, but I know many people who have taken the same combo (my GF included and at higher doses) and have not had ANY effects. I know that the medical community thinks that a dose of EC is like asking for a heart attack, but with all the people on Prozac and EC during the 90's and so little AER on the EC/Prozac combo I am leaning towards food poisoning from the Chinese Buffet she ate earlier. Oh, and here is the kicker, she hadn't taken the EC for 3 days when she became sick. What is the t1/2 of Ephedrine. I thought it was rather short (4-6 hours).

 

[SOWarrior]

Its too bad regular OTC GABA doesnt pass the BBB, it would be pretty popular if it did.

What is the BBB?

Searched... to no avail.

 

[darius]

The blood brain barrier is the physical barrier between the blood vessels in the central nervous system, and most parts of the central nervous system itself. The barrier stops many substances from traveling across it. -Wikipedia.org

 

[darius]

Dr. D, Have you ever heard of serotonin syndrome resulting from a combo of Prozac and Ephedra? A friend of mine was taking 20 mgs of prozac ED and began taking a product containing 100mg caffeine and 10mgs of ephedrine alkaloids and became violently ill. Of course when she mentioned to the doctor that she had been taking EC, they assumed the EC and Prozac was to blame, but I know many people who have taken the same combo (my GF included and at higher doses) and have not had ANY effects. I know that the medical community thinks that a dose of EC is like asking for a heart attack, but with all the people on Prozac and EC during the 90's and so little AER on the EC/Prozac combo I am leaning towards food poisoning from the Chinese Buffet she ate earlier. Oh, and here is the kicker, she hadn't taken the EC for 3 days when she became sick. What is the t1/2 of Ephedrine. I thought it was rather short (4-6 hours).

I've used AMP 2 Capsules, 2mg Klonopin, and 10mg Prozac. The AMP alone makes me anxious but with the Prozac and Klonopin all it does is give me some energy. It feels like alot of th energy is being eaten away by the Klonopin and Prozac, but adding the AMP keeps me from being so drowsy/tired during the day.

 

[darius]

As alot of ya'll know by all my posts on anxiety this and that, I have social anxiety. But its more of a generalized anxiety disorder, mostly social however. I recently purchased the book "The Edge Effect" by Dr. Eric Braverman. He believes we each are born with a dominant neurotransmitter (either GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin, or Acetylcholine). He tests for the dominant one, and all around dificiencies and how to fix them thru pharmaceutical meds, OTC/herbal, and other ways like diet. According to his tests, and they seem to fit very well to me and I can relate to the results, but it says that my dominant nature is acetylcholine.

According to the test, my deficiencies are GABA (largest deficiency), Acetylcholine, and Serotonin and Dopamine are kinda tied but lower deficiencies. All in that order from most deficiencent to least.

I have been taking 10mg Prozac (which would cover the Serotonin dificiency) and 2mg Klonopin everyday (covers the GABA dificiency) and I am a completely different person. People I know say that I have changed. I have changed for the better for sure, but I guess it's just startling when somebody you know is all of a sudden different. It was only a 2 week 10mg Prozac sample which the doc gave me and also 10 .25mg Xanax tabs. I didn't even use the Xanax cause I have Klonopin. If I could feel like I feel now forever that would be great, but unfortunately for many and obvious reasons I can't take an SSRI and a benzo forever.

I want to try to raise my deficiencies according to The Edge Effect book (which seems really cool, and not some **** material).

So to raise optimize my neurotransmitters this is what I want to do, starting with the most deficiencent to the least.

1. GABA - For now I will take Klonopin 2mg no matter what the doc says, does, or wants. It's godsend. There are numerous studies that show that it can safely be tappered without any bad side effects, and I will never raise my dose above 2mg. For the studies see here.
Let me remind you that I will be seeing a psychologist also and will get my thinking straightened out at the same time. I do not want to be on Klonopin forever of course, but I will be on it until I do not need it. And I am looking forward to getting my mind straightened out by the shrink. Whenever I come off the Klonopin I will drop .25mg every 4 weeks and cross taper in a mixture of (Inositol, GABA, Phenibut, Glutamic acid, Glutamine, Thiamine, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine, and Passionflower [IF NEEDED ONLY].

I will also be following a GABA increasing diet which will consist of eating heavy complex carbs, and foods dense in Glutamic acid/Glutamate (almonds, banans, broccoli, brown rice, halibut, oats , citrus fruits, spinach, nuts, whole grains). Of course I will get my protein in also because I am a "body builder".

2. Acetylcholine - This appears to be my dominant nature and when I read what I dominant person is like, it immediately reminded me of who I was. I even read the other personalities from the other neurotransmitters and mine wasn't even close to those. Despite it being my dominant, it is also 2nd place in my deficiency list.

To boost my Acetylcholine I will take:
300mg Choline GPC daily
500mg ALCAR daily
1000mg Choline daily
500mg Taurine daily
Green Tea Daily
(I will look into Phosphatidylserine, because it seems to help for Acetylcholine deficiencies).

3. Serotonin - I don't mind taking a low dose of Prozac 10-20mg daily, but I do not know what the long term type effects are (haven't researche that). I figure that about the time when I am coming off the Klonopin I should start coming off or thinking about coming off the Prozac. I also take Magnesium 400mg a day with the Prozac. If I have problems when coming off Prozac in the future I will supplement on: high calcium, 5-HTP, Passionflower, Pyridoxine, SAM-E, and Zinc).

According to the test that I took from The Edge Effect, it does not even seem like I need an SSRI. My Serotonin and Dopamine deficiencies, while moderate, where no where near as high as the GABA, and then Acetylcholine. So I don't know if I need an SSRI. It makes me feel really good in combination with the Klonopin, but maybe too good, if there is such a thing. I will talk to my doctor about it later this week.

I kinda want to try Luvox (Fluvoxamine) because there are numerous studies that show how well it works for social anxiety. I will propose this idea to my doc later this week as well. But I sort of do not want to switch the Prozac cause I'm not seeing any bad side effects and it is helping. So maybe I will just forgot the Luvox.

4. Dopamine - I don't really feel like I have any problems here, but it was tied on score with my Serotonin score (which I also feel my Serotonin may be fine). I think doc's just like to hand out SSRI's like candy cause it seems like a quick fix for most mental problems but not the right fix. Anyways, there still exists that deficiency and if it was lower I would not worry, but my Serotonin and Dopamine deficiencies are both middle (like a scale of 1-4, 4 being perfect they would both lie at 2, while Gaba an extreme 1 and Acetylcholine a moderate 1).

For Dopamine I will try supplementing with:
Tyrosine 1000mg daily
Rhodiola Rosea 200mg daily
Vitamin B6
Vitamin B12 Injection
Chromium 35mcg

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My hypothesis based on the meds I am on now (Prozac and Klonopin) and the results above are that I have major GABA issues, which are affecting my Acetylcholine nature. While my Serotonin and Dopamine are low, I don't believe those to be the problems. The reason why Prozac may be working so well is because it is potentiating the Klonopin (read it in my "Pill Book" that SSRI's can potentiate Benzo's). Plus since my Serotonin is a bit lower, the SSRI probably made it up nice and high again. It's funny. I can be natural and buy all those supplements to boost my Serotonin naturally which will cost a ton, or I can pay my $5 copay and get Prozac haha.

I will also be generally on Sesathin, Fish Oil, Flax Seed Oil, Hawthorn Berry (for my high bp), and Green Tea.

I will talk to my doc and see what she says, suggests, but this is where I stand now. I know alot of that may seem extreme, but all those supplements are only going to be like a 1 month test to see if it actually improves anything. And the supplements for the GABA and Serotonin that I listed would not even be taken unless problems arise from discontinuation of use. The only supplements I would take are the ones listed in the sentence above this paragraph as well as the ones for Dopamine and Acetylcholine.

I will also be having sessions with my pschologist during all of this as I said above.

I also plan on getting the right hours of sleep 7-8 hours, and lift weights 3 times a week and cardio twice a week. I am going to perfect my diet all the way down to every detail aimed at the GABA/Acetylcholine model diets.

I think I'm a smart person with the dedication to get thru this and fight the temptations of drug abuse and I don't think it's cocky to say that. I think I will have insanely great success with this program.

Just a couple questions now:

1. What are you guys thinking about all that?

2. Are there better supplements for Dopamine and Acetylcholine than the ones I listed?

3. Just any other input would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks alot everyone.

 

[bioman]

Take ample folic acid..like 1-3 mg, split into 2 doses along with some selenium in your acetylcholine stack. These seem to regulate things nicely for me.

Suggestion; Mix green tea and Rhodiola into a 60/40 mix, cap, and take 3 or more times per day. The RR really needs to be dosed several times per day to get the maximum benefit IMO. Dosing it once per day makes me crash later in the day.

 

[darius]

Forget me every trying to improve my dopamine system. Took all these dopamine type stuff, precursers, and all and I had my anxiety again, even while on the 10mg Prozac and 2mg Clonazepam. No more dopamine for me. So it could mean that I have an overactive Dopamine system or an underactive Serotonin/GABA system.