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Us 'Old guys' and PH use

cardiffgiant said:
I kept debating-Hdrol with fura/fura solo/or epi solo/i chose fura and formastane. Price did play a role. Havoc was tempting but I did not wanna use a SERM. I may do HDROL with no SERM down the road. BTW does everyone think it's being paranoid not to wanna fool with SERMs?
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You mention Epi solo, but you dont wanna do havoc because you dont want to do a serm? Havoc=Epi, no?

I'm paranoid about Serms now as well. I have 2, but need 2 more for thngs I'm sitting on. The timing couldnt have been worse, now i don't know what to do about the other 2 I need for my rats.
 
cardiffgiant said:
I kept debating-Hdrol with fura/fura solo/or epi solo/i chose fura and formastane. Price did play a role. Havoc was tempting but I did not wanna use a SERM. I may do HDROL with no SERM down the road. BTW does everyone think it's being paranoid not to wanna fool with SERMs?
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My #1 choice was epistane / revolt (revolt is the same as Max LMG or X-Mass). I'm tempted to do Halodrol 50 first tho. Depends more on whether when i'm ready to do it i'm looking to bulk, cut or recomp I guess.
 
cardiffgiant said:
I kept debating-Hdrol with fura/fura solo/or epi solo/i chose fura and formastane. Price did play a role. Havoc was tempting but I did not wanna use a SERM. I may do HDROL with no SERM down the road. BTW does everyone think it's being paranoid not to wanna fool with SERMs?
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With Epi you'll most likely want to use a SERM of some sort as it's pretty much the same as Havoc (some might argue). But otherwise they are identical.

Well in light of the current event, I'd be a little worried to in the attempt to get a hold of a SERM.
 
cardiffgiant said:
thanks Dutch. Hey what did you do for Sdrol post cycle therapy and how was libido after cycle and PCT? Thanks
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CG, I prefer Nolva, with lots of Fenugreek. Of course I did the Selenium, NAC, Milk Thistle, Red Yeast Rice, Celery Seed, Hawthorn Berry as well. Now there is Cycle Support which I think covers most all of the above. Now also I would probably make two changes and I would run my SD in a Pulse for my typical 3 to 4 days per 3 week and stretch it out to 6 to 8 weeks and I would run Formastane daily and then continue it during pct for its great libido side effect. I never had libido problems with SD, again I believe that may be because at my age my Test levels are so low that all Phs etc have magic effects. When I used the Fenugreek and sometimes also DHEA I stayed randy throughout PCT. Now as I said I would prefer the Formastane which I flat out love.
 
Dutchman said:
CG, I prefer Nolva, with lots of Fenugreek. Of course I did the Selenium, NAC, Milk Thistle, Red Yeast Rice, Celery Seed, Hawthorn Berry as well. Now there is Cycle Support which I think covers most all of the above. Now also I would probably make two changes and I would run my superdrol in a Pulse for my typical 3 to 4 days per 3 week and stretch it out to 6 to 8 weeks and I would run Formastane daily and then continue it during post cycle therapy for its great libido side effect. I never had libido problems with SD, again I believe that may be because at my age my Test levels are so low that all Phs etc have magic effects. When I used the Fenugreek and sometimes also DHEA I stayed randy throughout PCT. Now as I said I would prefer the Formastane which I flat out love.
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dutchman, i think us older guys get more out of the formestane. i hear younger guys saying they like it, but nothing like what you and i seem to be getting from it. i tried e-form over 2 years ago and it has remained right at the top of favorite supplements. $15 a bottle is amazing compared to the 'new' stuff that doesnt work as good. these days if a company comes out with a new version of something you liked i suggest stocking up on the old while you can, all the new/improved stuff ive tried pales to the original. supplement company's are really sticking it to us.
 
BoneDaddy said:
You mention Epi solo, but you dont wanna do havoc because you dont want to do a serm? Havoc=Epi, no?

I'm paranoid about Serms now as well. I have 2, but need 2 more for thngs I'm sitting on. The timing couldnt have been worse, now i don't know what to do about the other 2 I need for my rats.
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Yeah sorry if I was confusing I mentioned epi first but said Havoc cause price of Havoc was $30(tempting) both the same and both I'd use SERM or at least have on hand. Still probably will have to get some ATD and more anti cort for PCT from fura and forma that I started today.Did not sleep enough but killer workout-may have been all the BCAAs I used today or sample of gaspari size-on. Or excitement from start of Fura.
 
Dutchman said:
CG, I prefer Nolva, with lots of Fenugreek. Of course I did the Selenium, NAC, Milk Thistle, Red Yeast Rice, Celery Seed, Hawthorn Berry as well. Now there is Cycle Support which I think covers most all of the above. Now also I would probably make two changes and I would run my superdrol in a Pulse for my typical 3 to 4 days per 3 week and stretch it out to 6 to 8 weeks and I would run Formastane daily and then continue it during post cycle therapy for its great libido side effect. I never had libido problems with SD, again I believe that may be because at my age my Test levels are so low that all Phs etc have magic effects. When I used the Fenugreek and sometimes also DHEA I stayed randy throughout PCT. Now as I said I would prefer the Formastane which I flat out love.
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Wow interesting and amazing. I still wonder about my Sd fiasco. Maybe SERM was underdosed and or too much ATD? Either way I would try Hdrol again for sure just because sides were nonexistent and it fits into what I want. Only reason I skipped it now is it's methyl it's hard for me to remeber what exactly i got from it-definitely tighter and leaner. Anyways i wanted to see how i would respond from the fura and forma,especially after big ts posts on it.
 
T-Bone said:
Guys, for me the difference is really notable. I'm not sure whether it is age or not. I think it may be more from my hospitalization in '05. Seems that these days I can work just as hard or harder in the gym and as far as diet goes. The results of my efforts are less and less though. Its like night and day from when before I ended up in the hospital till after. Of course I have not done a cycle since than but I am just talking results from diet and exercise.
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Alas, T-Bone. You are, as am I, simply getting old!

...okay, I didn't say that.........
 
BoneDaddy said:
What would you guys consider a solid gold post cycle therapy? I have Nolva and will be using Retain, Activate Extreme, and Hyperdrol, Cycle Support as staples. Should I add something else in your opinion?
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IMHO a proper cycle for "old guys" consists of testosterone. It is easier to recover from and will give more growth/benefit than PHs.

A proper PCT should be lengthy.
  • Should involve SERMS:

    Toremifene & Raloxifene run together, tapered down for 4 weeks up to 6 weeks (if you ran a long cycle).

    OR

    Clomiphene & Tamoxifen run together, tapered down for 4 weeks up to 6 weeks (if you ran a long cycle).

  • Should include:

    IGF-1 LR3 (This will restore HPTA quickly, especially for us older guys)

  • May include:

    the AI of your choice if needed (tapered up as you finish PCT).

    Nettle root extract of the ligand Divanil (i.e. Activate) may work well post PCT in helping retain gains as it will free up more test.

    Growth Hormone run as replacement therapy will help maintain the new mass and help you stay lean.
 
datBtrue said:
IMHO a proper cycle for "old guys" consists of testosterone. It is easier to recover from and will give more growth/benefit than PHs.

A proper post cycle therapy should be lengthy.
  • Should involve SERMS:

    Toremifene & Raloxifene run together, tapered down for 4 weeks up to 6 weeks (if you ran a long cycle).

    OR

    Clomiphene & Tamoxifen run together, tapered down for 4 weeks up to 6 weeks (if you ran a long cycle).

  • Should include:

    IGF-1 LR3 (This will restore HPTA quickly, especially for us older guys)

  • May include:

    the AI of your choice if needed (tapered up as you finish PCT).

    Nettle root extract of the ligand Divanil (i.e. Activate) may work well post PCT in helping retain gains as it will free up more test.

    Growth Hormone run as replacement therapy will help maintain the new mass and help you stay lean.
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in case you havent noticed, if you dont have a prescription its very risky buying the stuff you talk about online at this time. the gov is resorting to gestapo tactics in its war against 'performance enhancers'. be careful.:cheers:
 
thebigt said:
in case you havent noticed, if you dont have a prescription its very risky buying the stuff you talk about online at this time. the gov is resorting to gestapo tactics in its war against 'performance enhancers'. be careful.:cheers:
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I know...I know!

GH & steroids are illegal and the govt. is carrying out enforcement actions at this time. Only an idiot would attempt to buy these things w/o a script today and for the forseeable future.

However older guys may get a script.

The rest of the things can still be bought from reliable places w/ little risk to the purchaser, IMHO...especially the SERMS.

The IGF-1 LR3 is another matter.
 
datBtrue said:
I know...I know!

GH & steroids are illegal and the govt. is carrying out enforcement actions at this time. Only an idiot would attempt to buy these things w/o a script today and for the forseeable future.

However older guys may get a script.

The rest of the things can still be bought from reliable places w/ little risk to the purchaser, IMHO...especially the SERMS.

The IGF-1 LR3 is another matter.
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the research chem co's selling serms are also being investigated for igf and hgh. i know of several sites that are down. not trying to be a smart- alec just trying to get the word out to be careful right now.:cheers:
 
thebigt said:
the research chem co's selling serms are also being investigated for igf and hgh. i know of several sites that are down. not trying to be a smart- alec just trying to get the word out to be careful right now.:cheers:
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Oh I know you aren't being a smart-alec bro. I appreciate you for sure. It is a confusing landscape.

The IGF-1 seems to be what is being argued about. A former board sponsor is not doing any business because of this while at least for the moment a very well known quality place is still selling SERMS and peptides.

A few places that only sold research chems, no peptides just closed up. But there are some that never advertised much if at all that only sell research chems and no peptides still going strong.

What is the risk to the purchaser of a SERM if he uses his name & addy? I don't honestly know.
 
datBtrue said:
Oh I know you aren't being a smart-alec bro. I appreciate you for sure. It is a confusing landscape.

The IGF-1 seems to be what is being argued about. A former board sponsor is not doing any business because of this while at least for the moment a very well known quality place is still selling SERMS and peptides.

A few places that only sold research chems, no peptides just closed up. But there are some that never advertised much if at all that only sell research chems and no peptides still going strong.

What is the risk to the purchaser of a SERM if he uses his name & addy? I don't honestly know.
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That its reasonable cause to search the premises since it is a home address and not a laboratory?
 
That's why i chose and will choose something in the future(if any more)to use something that I don't think would require a SERM.Scary **** goin on and I'd rather be paranoid and hopefully safe. Hey just wondering if anybody ordered something say a few weeks back if that could be an issue?Glad I'm only into supp cos.
 
EasyEJL said:
That its reasonable cause to search the premises since it is a home address and not a laboratory?
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you are assuming the gov still plays by the rules. since 911 im under the impression the feds have done away with reasonable cause. this country has sure changed a lot since the days of my youth. i try not to give big brother any reason to turn his eye towards me.
 
cardiffgiant said:
That's why i chose and will choose something in the future(if any more)to use something that I don't think would require a SERM.Scary **** goin on and I'd rather be paranoid and hopefully safe. Hey just wondering if anybody ordered something say a few weeks back if that could be an issue?Glad I'm only into supp cos.
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My guess is that the real risk is that IF your research chem company is shutdown and they have your name & addy on file you may end up in some Fed database. To be used how? Who knows.

But what if your homebrew company gets shutdown and your name goes in a database...

Or the place you bought syringes...

Or heaven forbid the place you bought a steroid...

thebigt's got a point...in todays world you may never know how & when such info. will rise up to bite you on the ass.
 
datBtrue said:
My guess is that the real risk is that IF your research chem company is shutdown and they have your name & addy on file you may end up in some Fed database. To be used how? Who knows.

But what if your homebrew company gets shutdown and your name goes in a database...

Or the place you bought syringes...

Or heaven forbid the place you bought a steroid...

thebigt's got a point...in todays world you may never know how & when such info. will rise up to bite you on the ass.
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datBtrue: exactly the point i was getting at. cya.
 
EasyEJL said:
given that i'm already a candidate for TRT, what kind of harm can suppression do?
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Make it harder to keep "on cycle" gains. Make your endogenous levels even lower.

Been there, done that for me. Of course, I'm older than some here. I can tell you that it takes me longer to "get back on track" as time goes on. I limit myself to one maybe two cycles per year now, with Dr D's PCT protocol, by far, the best recovery for me.

I find the idea of pulsing to be interesting, but don't know if it would be more appropriate or not.
 
EasyEJL said:
That its reasonable cause to search the premises since it is a home address and not a laboratory?
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I'm sure alot of the people who bought SERMS (or need them :lol: ) wouldn't have anything to search for except maybe some 'grey area' PH's that were bought legitimately. From my understanding, just possessing a SERM (ie, research chem.) isn't against the law per se. Maybe I'm naive......
 
BoneDaddy said:
I'm sure alot of the people who bought SERMS (or need them :lol: ) wouldn't have anything to search for except maybe some 'grey area' PH's that were bought legitimately. From my understanding, just possessing a SERM (ie, research chem.) isn't against the law per se. Maybe I'm naive......
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you are missing the point. if you order a serm from a site that is being investigated for selling things that are considered 'illegal' then your info goes on their database.
 
BoneDaddy said:
I'm sure alot of the people who bought SERMS (or need them :lol: ) wouldn't have anything to search for except maybe some 'grey area' PH's that were bought legitimately. From my understanding, just possessing a SERM (ie, research chem.) isn't against the law per se. Maybe I'm naive......
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It could be considered "possession of prescription medication without a prescription bottle" or any of a number of similar charges
 
EasyEJL said:
It could be considered "possession of prescription medication without a prescription bottle" or any of a number of similar charges
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I wounder what will happen to those who ordered SERMs but never got their products. Personal info in a database somewhere but no products at home.
 
celc5 said:
Everyone knows BigT is trying to make me feel like an old fart since form is one of my favorites as well :rant:
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There is no question about Formestane jacking up my testosterone and providing improved strength, energy and libido. Perhaps moreso, what I also absolutely love about it is that as an Aromatase Inhibitor it has really positive effects on my prostate. I have lost too many freinds and know of too many others who currently suffer from the big PC. Its the #2 killer for us guys IIRC. Hence reducing my estrogen and DHT is a big, big plus. It is true and dangerous that by the age of 54 the average male has more estrogen than a 57 year old woman. Its never too soon to start using Formestane.
 
Dutchman said:
...Perhaps moreso, what I also absolutely love about it is that as an Aromatase Inhibitor it has really positive effects on my prostate. I have lost too many freinds and know of too many others who currently suffer from the big PC. Its the #2 killer for us guys IIRC. Hence reducing my estrogen and DHT is a big, big plus. It is true and dangerous that by the age of 54 the average male has more estrogen than a 57 year old woman. Its never too soon to start using Formestane.
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Good point Dutch. I'm going to pick up some E-Form to control estrogen off-cycle here and there.

In PCT it also seems to increase the power of Nolva and possibly reduce Nolva's side-effects. See the study I posted here: Invalid Link Removed
 
Im 37(been bb/supplementing since I was 13 on and off)
anytime I Raise my test with tongkat ali, 6 oxo ect(yrs ago with pro hormones).... whatever gains I have made always end up getting completely lost over time unless I continue a vicious cycle of continuous 4 weeks on 2 weeks off (or other dosing patterns)

my total test baseline is around 375, so unless I stay on something nature is just gonna take its course when I go off. within a week of going off , my body weighs the same , but my look is totally different(soft, no viens ect,,,)

really at our age , we need hrt if we wanna keep a muscular look and gains.
take into account rub on prescription gels only get your baseline to about 700, wich is not gonna put on very much mass.
 
ZIMM said:
Im 37(been bb/supplementing since I was 13 on and off)
anytime I Raise my test with tongkat ali, 6 oxo ect(yrs ago with pro hormones).... whatever gains I have made always end up getting completely lost over time unless I continue a vicious cycle of continuous 4 weeks on 2 weeks off (or other dosing patterns)

my total test baseline is around 375, so unless I stay on something nature is just gonna take its course when I go off. within a week of going off , my body weighs the same , but my look is totally different(soft, no viens ect,,,)

really at our age , we need hrt if we wanna keep a muscular look and gains.
take into account rub on prescription gels only get your baseline to about 700, wich is not gonna put on very much mass.
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I don't agree with the generalization about our age.I'm gonna be 36 in 2 months and I'm very muscular.it's staying conditioned-lean is what is a lot harder IMO.I worked hard busting my ass to get the mass I have(loving to eat helped)and holding onto it so far has been acheived.I know it will get harder but I think by time I hit 40 hrt will help a lot.I have no idea what my T-levels are BTW but I bet they are higher than what you posted,because it seems to make sense.Sorry to hear about your situation but if you can get into hrt and if you use GH and Test you can definitely improve your physique.Other options and methods can help as well.Good Luck and stay positive by searching for and trying possible solutions.peace. :squat:
 
cardiffgiant said:
I don't agree with the generalization about our age.I'm gonna be 36 in 2 months and I'm very muscular.it's staying conditioned-lean is what is a lot harder IMO.I worked hard busting my ass to get the mass I have(loving to eat helped)and holding onto it so far has been acheived.I know it will get harder but I think by time I hit 40 hrt will help a lot.I have no idea what my T-levels are BTW but I bet they are higher than what you posted,because it seems to make sense.Sorry to hear about your situation but if you can get into hrt and if you use GH and Test you can definitely improve your physique.Other options and methods can help as well.Good Luck and stay positive by searching for and trying possible solutions.peace. :squat:
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sorry for the misunderstanding , I was just basically confirming what b150 said. yes its pretty general statement as the avg total test for men in the mid 30's on up normally declines 1 to 2% a yr.
You personally could def. be on the high end of avg or above, as well as other men on the forum(there can also be guys in thier teens and 20's under 400)!

I can still carry the same amount of muscle mass(or close to it) as I had when I was a teenager, I just meant the avg guy in his middle yrs would not be able to maintain the overal mass ,bf level, hardening effect ect from his supplement spike as would a young man with a naturally higher testosterone level.

This why sometime you see a pro bodybuilder look 20 to 30 lbs lighter after coming off his gear durring the offseason while carrying more bf and looking soft.. He just does not make enuff testosterone to support most of that mass(if most of it was created using high levels of artificial means)

So basically what I was trying to say is that if someone with a baseline level of 400 put on 5 lbs of lbm using a testosterone spiking agent, he would most likely retain less of those gains then someone who's normal baseline is double that!

Also 400 total is not a death sentence lol, most dr's wont prescribe you hrt till your in the mid to low 300's..
 
cardiffgiant said:
I don't agree with the generalization about our age.I'm gonna be 36 in 2 months and I'm very muscular.it's staying conditioned-lean is what is a lot harder IMO.I worked hard busting my ass to get the mass I have(loving to eat helped)and holding onto it so far has been acheived.I know it will get harder but I think by time I hit 40 hrt will help a lot.I have no idea what my T-levels are BTW but I bet they are higher than what you posted,because it seems to make sense.Sorry to hear about your situation but if you can get into hrt and if you use GH and Test you can definitely improve your physique.Other options and methods can help as well.Good Luck and stay positive by searching for and trying possible solutions.peace. :squat:
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i agree, maintaining mass at an older age requires a commitment most of us cant make. with work demands and responsibilty increasing as i get older i couldnt do it anymore. went on a cut cycle of furazadrol/e-form and went from 252 to 218 right now. feel much better. btw im 49 and t-level is 500+. my doctor made me laugh when i asked about hrt, said something about roid rage and aggression. proper diet and cort control is the key.:box:
 
thebigt said:
i agree, maintaining mass at an older age requires a commitment most of us cant make. with work demands and responsibilty increasing as i get older i couldnt do it anymore. went on a cut cycle of furazadrol/e-form and went from 252 to 218 right now. feel much better. btw im 49 and t-level is 500+. my doctor made me laugh when i asked about hrt, said something about roid rage and aggression. proper diet and cort control is the key.:box:
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Yeah i have always been interested in cort control prods since I tend to overtrain.I have questions as to the effectiveness of the cort prods but will try and see.BTW as far as combatting overtraining, Believe it or not I think HMB helped me years ago.May try bulk down the road. Been hitting up bulk BCAAs with extend(thanks Bigt-watermelon is good).Question-Am I the only one who uses Bulk(PS Brand)BCAAs and doesn't think they taste nasty but are just water repellant(only prob mixing,etc. )?
 
nah, I feel the same. I don't notice the BCAA taste hardly at all, but it does suck to get them to mix. I found 2 things that it goes into faster, Swell from nimbus and Betagen from EAS
 
extend is cheap enough, and besides watermelon tastes sooo good. im trying the new lean extreme right now, best ever for cort control was retain original.
 
thebigt said:
extend is cheap enough, and besides watermelon tastes sooo good. im trying the new lean extreme right now, best ever for cort control was retain original.
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Yeah i mix extend with a bulk dose for training and nontraining I just hit bulk dose usually with glutamine at night or in the morning.I will use lean extreme for PCT(your suggestion-thanks).BTW I am doing fura-3caps/day and liking it so far.Also doing e-form-taper up in cycle and peak last day then taper down for pct.Anyways I will add Hdrol to the mix at 50mg/day for 30 days and wonder if PCT should be adjusted.have e-form(as mentioned),blue up,paravol,lean extreme,bulk cordyceps,regsupps-BCAAs,creatine.I have restore but since I'm using e-form I think I will skip it.Suggestions-T?or anybody?Thanks.
 
cardiffgiant said:
Yeah i mix extend with a bulk dose for training and nontraining I just hit bulk dose usually with glutamine at night or in the morning.I will use lean extreme for post cycle therapy(your suggestion-thanks).BTW I am doing fura-3caps/day and liking it so far.Also doing e-form-taper up in cycle and peak last day then taper down for post cycle therapy.Anyways I will add Hdrol to the mix at 50mg/day for 30 days and wonder if PCT should be adjusted.have e-form(as mentioned),blue up,paravol,lean extreme,bulk cordyceps,regsupps-BCAAs,creatine.I have restore but since I'm using e-form I think I will skip it.Suggestions-T?or anybody?Thanks.
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get some nutra planet 6oxo/hdx2 or last resort atd and taper down on e-form pct. gaspari novadex is on sale. ra keeps telling me that restore is not good for pct.
 
RA says a lot of things :) One of the valuable things he says is do your own research, don't just listen to what other people say... So feel free to disagree with him. Also different people have significantly different bodies, endocrine balances, etc, so there is no cookie cutter approach - what works well for one may not for someone else.
 
I would probably only recommend a pulse to someone who was worried about suppression and retention of gains, or even consider that myself if I were in those shoes. Something like an epistane/havoc pulse cycle with a completely solid post cycle therapy.

Probably much better doing it over a longer, safer controlled period of time, instead of doing a fullblown suppressive cycle. The results will still be good off a pulse.
 
EasyEJL said:
RA says a lot of things :) One of the valuable things he says is do your own research, don't just listen to what other people say... So feel free to disagree with him. Also different people have significantly different bodies, endocrine balances, etc, so there is no cookie cutter approach - what works well for one may not for someone else.
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i started out arguing the virtues of restore, but he got me on the proprietary blend. we agree that restore is good for non-pct, but not sure if dosed high enough for pct. with so many options, why take chances.
 
I'm going to be 46 in a few months and I'm getting ready to run epistane and formastane.I had some nice results from epistane alone without any problems.I don't know about the rest of you older guy's but some days I still feel 25 then I have those days where I feel 55.It just sucks to grow old.
 
ogre said:
I don't know about the rest of you older guy's but some days I still feel 25 then I have those days where I feel 55.It just sucks to grow old.
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Wisdom and patience are the only advantages to getting older. If only I could be 22 with the maturity I have now....:whiner:
 
yeahright said:
Wisdom and patience are the only advantages to getting older. If only I could be 22 with the maturity I have now....:whiner:
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Could own the goddamn world by 35 then eh? been ready to retire at 40. I wish the same.

Just simple things like establisng a 401k at minimum amount, and then each raise you get raising the 401k till you hit max. then you never notice it, but end up at 15% within 4-5 years, and seriously compound some savings.
 
EasyEJL said:
RA says a lot of things :) One of the valuable things he says is do your own research, don't just listen to what other people say... So feel free to disagree with him. Also different people have significantly different bodies, endocrine balances, etc, so there is no cookie cutter approach - what works well for one may not for someone else.
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What you talkin bout Willis?
 
FX01 said:
T-Bone,
Now you have Silver Spoons stuck in my head.:rant:
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I notice that when I was growing up tv shows used to send a message. Now there are just no more shows like that anymore. I'm way off topic though and I don't want to take this thread off track, so this will be my last post regarding anything other than the current subject matter at hand.
 
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