Unreal's Guide to Injectables

doesn't matter if you lift the muscle or not. I'd rather lift the muscle after injecting it, as i feel this would also help disperse the oil.

you don't need to cycle through every injection spot if you are only injecting a little bit of oil. Your quads can certainly handle 1 shot per week each. I have done everyday injecting just going back and forth between quads... they are such big muscles that you don't need to inject the exact same spot everytime.
 
Can't read all the responses but nice post unreal - long overdue and hopefully a sticky.

On what you said, I agree injecting isn't scary at all and I too look forward to it. I actually scheduled my current cycle so i take a shot everyday - Sunday Sust, Monday Deca, Tuesday hCG, Wed Sust, Thursday Deca, Friday hCG, Saturday Deca. It just becomes part of my morning routine, like shaving or brushing my teeth.
 
CrazyChemist said:
Can't read all the responses but nice post unreal - long overdue and hopefully a sticky.

On what you said, I agree injecting isn't scary at all and I too look forward to it. I actually scheduled my current cycle so i take a shot everyday - Sunday Sust, Monday Deca, Tuesday hCG, Wed Sust, Thursday Deca, Friday hCG, Saturday Deca. It just becomes part of my morning routine, like shaving or brushing my teeth.
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lol, nice. I am the same way, it became part of my routine, first thing in the morning. Nothing wakes you up like having to stab yourself! :)

I amended the guide with a section I call injection theory, hopefully it's not all too redundant, but most of it is new and touches on stuff I didn't cover much originally.
 
UnrealMachine said:
lol, nice. I am the same way, it became part of my routine, first thing in the morning. Nothing wakes you up like having to stab yourself! :)

I amended the guide with a section I call injection theory, hopefully it's not all too redundant, but most of it is new and touches on stuff I didn't cover much originally.
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I think its a nice addition. IDK how much you want to include but the only thing I'd want someone to know in addition is that hCG comes into play. For PH use, most don't even consider hCG whereas for AAS cycles, especially the long ones hCG is strongly recommended.
 
I know how to use hCG but i don't know the "why" behind what I'd be recommending and so I think that means I can't explain it very well and so I don't feel comfortable writing it into my guide.

Crazychemist if you write a bit on hCG I will put it into the guide and cite you.
 
UnrealMachine said:
I know how to use hCG but i don't know the "why" behind what I'd be recommending and so I think that means I can't explain it very well and so I don't feel comfortable writing it into my guide.

Crazychemist if you write a bit on hCG I will put it into the guide and cite you.
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Here's a really good article for resource/reference:

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Unreal here is a post of mine from an old thread that I modified for this:

hCG = human chorionic gonadotropin

Because it is not uncommon for injectable cycles to run longer than oral-only cycles the athlete needs to address an additional risk. Once the body shuts down it's own testosterone production via the HPTA, the testicular function will drop significantly and, because this may be over a long period of time, the testicles can atrophy to the point where their long-term ability to function properly is at risk.

The testicles receive their signal to produce testosterone from the pituitary gland via Luteinizing hormone (LH). LH levels will rapidly decline when steroids are taken. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin is an LH mimicker, found in particularly high levels in pregnant females to prevent the breakdown of the fetus. For an athlete on steroids, hCG can be taken to stimulate the testes to produce testosterone and to prevent atrophy. For a healthy male with normal testicular function, a dose of 250-500iu 2x/wk is usually sufficient (though everyones sensitivity may vary). hCG should usually be started in the 3rd or 4th week of the cycle (or whenever the body is completely shutdown) and run until just before PCT.

It is a misnomer that hCG should be used during PCT. hCG is suppressive to the body's natural LH level and the HPTA. It will keep the testes functioning normally in the absence of stimuli but when trying to get the body back on its own normal track it is counter-productive.

On a related note, an endocrinologist, Dr. Simeons, theorized that the hCG 'programmed' the hypothalamus to catabolize adipose fat tissue only and not break down lean muscle tissue (essentially the mechanism by which it protects the fetus in pregnant women). He tested his theory by putting obese men on low doses of hCG and a 500 calorie/day diet. The results were incredible. A substantially higher percentage of the weight loss was adipose fat instead of muscle. However, it is important to note the hCG does NOT induce ANY fat loss itself. Rather the hCG spares the muscle tissue during catabolism.
 
CrazyChemist said:
Unreal here is a post of mine from an old thread that I modified for this:

hCG = human chorionic gonadotropin

Because it is not uncommon for injectable cycles to run longer than oral-only cycles the athlete needs to address an additional risk. Once the body shuts down it's own testosterone production via the HPTA, the testicular function will drop significantly and, because this may be over a long period of time, the testicles can atrophy to the point where their long-term ability to function properly is at risk.

The testicles receive their signal to produce testosterone from the pituitary gland via Luteinizing hormone (LH). LH levels will rapidly decline when steroids are taken. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin is an LH mimicker, found in particularly high levels in pregnant females to prevent the breakdown of the fetus. For an athlete on steroids, hCG can be taken to stimulate the testes to produce testosterone and to prevent atrophy. For a healthy male with normal testicular function, a dose of 250-500iu 2x/wk is usually sufficient (though everyones sensitivity may vary). hCG should usually be started in the 3rd or 4th week of the cycle (or whenever the body is completely shutdown) and run until just before PCT.

It is a misnomer that hCG should be used during PCT. hCG is suppressive to the body's natural LH level and the HPTA. It will keep the testes functioning normally in the absence of stimuli but when trying to get the body back on its own normal track it is counter-productive.

On a related note, an endocrinologist, Dr. Simeons, theorized that the hCG 'programmed' the hypothalamus to catabolize adipose fat tissue only and not break down lean muscle tissue (essentially the mechanism by which it protects the fetus in pregnant women). He tested his theory by putting obese men on low doses of hCG and a 500 calorie/day diet. The results were incredible. A substantially higher percentage of the weight loss was adipose fat instead of muscle. However, it is important to note the hCG does NOT induce ANY fat loss itself. Rather the hCG spares the muscle tissue during catabolism.
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integrated that in. added a small part on how to inject it. Thanks for the contribution, and the guide grows more completed :)
 
UnrealMachine said:
integrated that in. added a small part on how to inject it. Thanks for the contribution, and the guide grows more completed :)
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Truth is, there is so much to know it is near impossible to be all-inclusive. I think tho this will be a nice thread to direct users to, who PM the experienced users with common questions.

Anyway, thanks again unreal for the contribution.
 
great for the ph guy who switches to inj or wants to switch to test + ph kick start, which is what i am thinking about. What would you guys say to Test 12 wk with 4 week SD kickstart? vs SD/Phera bridge 5 wk. I am experienced with ph's but never injected
 
overall great job UnrealMachine, thanks for all the info. also, thanks CrazyChemist for making HCG compound more clear for me. amazing article on HCG. Unreal, can you create "Unreal's Guide to Diet and Training on Cycle". I know this would end all the PM you guys get from beginners.
 
enoc09 said:
overall great job UnrealMachine, thanks for all the info. also, thanks CrazyChemist for making HCG compound more clear for me. amazing article on HCG. Unreal, can you create "Unreal's Guide to Diet and Training on Cycle". I know this would end all the PM you guys get from beginners.
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No doubt - The guide youre asking for though, "Unreal's Guide to Diet and Training on Cycle", is a tough one to write for Unreal or anyone. You know, there is so much that goes into developing diet and training, which is why so many bb's recommend perfecting these aspects before tackling AAS.
 
I've got a question as i'm not really versed in injectable cycles. Do you still need liver support while on? I would assume not since I would think the AAS being injected would not have to pass through the liver....but you know what they say about assuming....
 
TheDarkHalf said:
I've got a question as i'm not really versed in injectable cycles. Do you still need liver support while on? I would assume not since I would think the AAS being injected would not have to pass through the liver....but you know what they say about assuming....
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You're correct. But it is not uncommon for injectables to be run alongside, for instance, oral dbol or primobolan - also it isn't uncommon for oral SERMs or AIs to be taken to control sides while on. Thus, a liver support can't hurt, right?
 
CrazyChemist said:
You're correct. But it is not uncommon for injectables to be run alongside, for instance, oral dbol or primobolan - also it isn't uncommon for oral SERMs or AIs to be taken to control sides while on. Thus, a liver support can't hurt, right?
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Yeah I had read that many like kickstarting an injectable cycle with something like SD or other compound that provides good and quick gains....with the theory in mind that the injectable will help maintain and solidify and if not improve upon those gains.

One other question....and I may be opening up a can of worms here so i'm sorry if that's the case. I also know next to nothing about peptides...is that a whole nother ball game or can they be ran along-side an injectable steroid?

I've just seen a lot of peptides like CJC-xxxx and GHRP so on and so forth...if you could point me in the right direction it'd be much appreciated. Just trying to get learned as my most my knowledge consists of basic oral PH/DS. :dunce:
 
TheDarkHalf said:
Yeah I had read that many like kickstarting an injectable cycle with something like SD or other compound that provides good and quick gains....with the theory in mind that the injectable will help maintain and solidify and if not improve upon those gains.

One other question....and I may be opening up a can of worms here so i'm sorry if that's the case. I also know next to nothing about peptides...is that a whole nother ball game or can they be ran along-side an injectable steroid?

I've just seen a lot of peptides like CJC-xxxx and GHRP so on and so forth...if you could point me in the right direction it'd be much appreciated. Just trying to get learned as my most my knowledge consists of basic oral PH/DS. :dunce:
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qwerty33 said:
true what exactly is a peptide and how does it differ from PH/AAS
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Bump.
 
Peptides is a whole 'nother guide guys! And one I can't write. I don't know **** about peptides. There is a subforum for it though, last I checked.
 
TheDarkHalf said:
Yeah I had read that many like kickstarting an injectable cycle with something like SD or other compound that provides good and quick gains....with the theory in mind that the injectable will help maintain and solidify and if not improve upon those gains.

One other question....and I may be opening up a can of worms here so i'm sorry if that's the case. I also know next to nothing about peptides...is that a whole nother ball game or can they be ran along-side an injectable steroid?

I've just seen a lot of peptides like CJC-xxxx and GHRP so on and so forth...if you could point me in the right direction it'd be much appreciated. Just trying to get learned as my most my knowledge consists of basic oral PH/DS. :dunce:
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qwerty33 said:
true what exactly is a peptide and how does it differ from PH/AAS
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Amino acids are the building blocks of life. They snap together like legos and if you sting together a bunch of amino acids you get a peptide. Now some peptides lack function in the human body such as the peptides you find in your whey, soy, or casein protein. These peptides merely exist so that the body can digest them, break them down, and reassemble them in a different sequence to yield muscle fibers. However, not all peptides are innocuous. The body natively uses peptides to assist in many complex processes. Hence, when there are more of these peptides in the body (such as the ones that help build muscle fibers) these processes occur more frequently.

The biggest difference between peptides, like IGF-1 and GHRP, and PH/AAS is that peptides do not shut down the HPTA. Now... some people do run IGF-1, for example, at the end of a cycle to push for more gains when gains are almost maxed out. I, however, suggest using them in a different way. I am in my last week of a 16 week sustanon/deca cycle and will be starting PCT soon. I plan on running IGF-1 2-3 weeks into PCT to prevent the catabolism of the gained muscle.
 
UnrealMachine said:
Peptides is a whole 'nother guide guys! And one I can't write. I don't know **** about peptides. There is a subforum for
it though, last I checked.
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Awww man and here you had us thinkin you knew it all :cussing:

That's cool I'll check out the subforum.

CrazyChemist said:
Amino acids are the building blocks of life. They snap together like legos and if you sting together a bunch of amino acids you get a peptide. Now some peptides lack function in the human body such as the peptides you find in your whey, soy, or casein protein. These peptides merely exist so that the body can digest them, break them down, and reassemble them in a different sequence to yield muscle fibers. However, not all peptides are innocuous. The body natively uses peptides to assist in many complex processes. Hence, when there are more of these peptides in the body (such as the ones that help build muscle fibers) these processes occur more frequently.

The biggest difference between peptides, like IGF-1 and GHRP, and PH/AAS is that peptides do not shut down the HPTA. Now... some people do run IGF-1, for example, at the end of a cycle to push for more gains when gains are almost maxed out. I, however, suggest using them in a different way. I am in my last week of a 16 week sustanon/deca cycle and will be starting PCT soon. I plan on running IGF-1 2-3 weeks into PCT to prevent the catabolism of the gained muscle.
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Makes sense. On a side....how did your sust/deca cycle turn out?
 
TheDarkHalf said:
Makes sense. On a side....how did your sust/deca cycle turn out?
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qwerty33 said:
2nd how did the cycle go. also where does hgh fall in?
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The cycle went well. I probably should have held it for longer but I had already held it for almost 9 months. The reason i say I shldve held it longer is I wanted to lean out some still before bulking again. I used the cycle as a recomp, lost a good deal of bf from the mid-section and still gained a net of 15 lbs. It might be too soon to tell but I feel like the gains are solid and I'm hoping to keep them permanently. I'll probably take the rest of the year off, get some blood work circa april and then again in sept. If I focus on staying lean then I should be ready for a full out bulk in Dec./Jan. again.
 
CrazyChemist said:
The cycle went well. I probably should have held it for longer but I had already held it for almost 9 months. The reason i say I shldve held it longer is I wanted to lean out some still before bulking again. I used the cycle as a recomp, lost a good deal of bf from the mid-section and still gained a net of 15 lbs. It might be too soon to tell but I feel like the gains are solid and I'm hoping to keep them permanently. I'll probably take the rest of the year off, get some blood work circa april and then again in sept. If I focus on staying lean then I should be ready for a full out bulk in Dec./Jan. again.
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Nice man. Keep us posted on how everything turns out.
 
Here is an older, but still pretty guide/info as well..

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nephilim was one of the few guys here who really knew AAS it's too bad he doesn't post anymore
 
qwerty33 said:
what type of bs?
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people think they know it all - people who know nothing and get attitudy judy about ppl giving them good advice - idk, stuff like that


like i said i think its all good around this joint but i cld see why someone might log off for good.
 
Unreal, I must say this is a great post and obviously it has shown with all the responses. I can say the subject header is what caught my eye only because about 6 months ago I was thinking the same thing should I go to the "dark side" and I decided to. Unfortunately I seemed to not have a good experience as I have with the orals. I took a 10 week cycle of Deca at 1cc a week and for PCT i took Clomid at 100/75/50/25. After all the reading and responses from everyone it looked this this would be a great fit for me. The cycle was amazing had great gains everything was very lean, didnt experience and loss in labido or anything even without taking Test along side it.

Now here I am 4 months off the cycle and my body is still completly shut down. I have had several blood test and all came back very low. Just to give you an idea my levels were so low they were half of that of the lowest value they give in the range. The docs have now told me that I have to go see an endocrinologist, and of course when I told them what I did they basically said "there is little they can do there are not magic jumper cables they can jump start me with" I dont know if that is something they are doing to scare me or what.

I felt like sharing this with you because you seem very intelligent on the subject and might have some insight in the matter. Now I am no stranger to the orals I have used Superdrol, Phera-Plex, Trenavar(19nor products), and H-drol. And after coming off these products never been as shut down as I have now. Do you think there are some people that just cant run the real gear or am I just an exception to the rule, am I really doomed for life as the doctor as seemed to portray to me?

MizXXL
 
I am surprised at several things... how could you run a deca-only cycle after reading so much? it should be pretty apparent that deca-only is discouraged. Anyway at least you made gains on 1cc deca a week, that's just not a very good cycle IMO...

Now about being so shutdown, that's pretty unexpected after just 1 vial of deca followed up by a proper clomid PCT.

But the doctors are wrong as usual, you can jumpstart yourself... The doctors will probably look for the easy solution which is putting you on HRT but you can recover your natural test, but you'll have to work on that ASAP. I have read about people being unable to recover and then do another cycle and proper PCT again and that resets them properly. Also doing therapy with serms and natural test boosters, or hCG etc. There are ways so don't let the doctors convince you to give up... **** the doctors.

i think 1 of two things is happening 1) you are very sensitive to deca because 1cc a week is hardly enough to make gains on for most people or 2) clomid was bunk.
I know it's not very likely that the clomid was bad but after just 1 vial of deca you should not be THAT shutdown, nandrolone is very suppressive but you didn't even lose libido... I'm pretty surprised at that... Maybe the clomid was bad but who knows...

At this point just try to get your natural test going again, there's ways, look at the forums, particularly AAS boards, look for threads about recovering after being on for more than a year, lots of people have done it, check out their methods, I forgot them.
 
Miz - interesting situation.

As Unreal said, you probably didn't do enough research before jumping in - no offense. Deca is a funny compound and, even tho I like it, I think it is one of the most difficult compounds to run correctly. Without question and without addressing any of the other issues I found with deca, you always want to run deca with a test base. IMHO, Deca can provide gains when testosterone based hypertrophy gains have been almost maxed out. Since most of us are no where near that point I wouldn't bother with deca until you have ample AAS experience. I personally experimented with it (on my dog) last cycle and found 300mg-400mg / wk was my dog's sweet spot. Libido thru the roof, massive gains, etc.

That being said, I'm assuming your deca was 100mg/mL and thus you were running 100mg weekly. This is a very low dose and shouldn't have shut you down too hard. Which deca ester were you running? Deca-durabolin? Your clomid PCT of 100/75/50/25 - this was 100mg ED for a week, followed by 75mg ED for a week, etc.? I talked to someone recently who thought that 100/75/50/25 meant 4 days worth stepping down every day. Also deca has a long retention time and so you want to wait 2 weeks from last inject to start PCT.

What's done is done. From here on out we need to get you back on track. First and foremost, DONT tell doctors anymore about your "experience". The cause of the shutdown is immaterial. They will run your bloodwork and treat your symptoms. By admitting to illegal drug use you may exempt yourself from insurance coverage and/or may alter their prognosis for you. If I were you I'd switch docs and start fresh but that is just me.

As for self-treatment to get back on track.... did you get bloodwork before cycle? What were your levels before cycle? How long have you been off your deca-only cycle? PM me about your PCT, I want more info about what you ran.

As Unreal brilliantly stated, a low dose short-run test cycle (6 wks maybe) with hCG to get ur boys pumping, followed by a nice dose of clomid/sustain alpha, followed by arimidex/sustain alpha should get you completely back on track. I'm surprised so many ppl have problems getting back on track. I rebound like a champ.

EDIT: Of course, I don't have any personal experience since I only use this on my dogs and horses. I'd never take illegal cmpds and any advice I provide is pure speculation.
 
qwerty33 said:
crazy is clomi you serm of choice? What are your thoughts on torem
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Nolva in low doses on-cycle and Clomid during PCT has been my modus operandi. Nolva has always reduced my bloat and given me drier gains while clomid, in my assessment of how I feel, seems to get my natural test back on track. That being said, clomid sucks for the first week especially. I am so moody and its funny to watch me get all teary-eyed when a heartwarming commercial comes on. As far as torem, I've never used it myself but I hear amazing things. When it comes time to order another SERM for my hamster I'll probably give torem a try.
 
qwerty33 said:
crazy is clomi you serm of choice? What are your thoughts on torem
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CrazyChemist said:
Nolva in low doses on-cycle and Clomid during PCT has been my modus operandi. Nolva has always reduced my bloat and given me drier gains while clomid, in my assessment of how I feel, seems to get my natural test back on track. That being said, clomid sucks for the first week especially. I am so moody and its funny to watch me get all teary-eyed when a heartwarming commercial comes on. As far as torem, I've never used it myself but I hear amazing things. When it comes time to order another SERM for my hamster I'll probably give torem a try.
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http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/58797-toremifene-blood-work.html

I read these posts ages ago and came to the conclusion that Toremifene Citrate aka Fareston is the best SERM you can buy.
 
You guys know how I have concluded that there is no "best" steroid but people will respond to them differently and some work great for some people and work poorly for others.

I think SERMs are the same way... your mileage may vary and so I don't think there can be one that's "best" for everybody

Based on my experience, i'd side with Crazychemist, nolva for on cycle estrogen and gyno issues, clomid for PCT. Some people get bad sides from clomid though, and for some people toremifene works great, for me I thought toremifene sucked... I say try them all out, see which one works best, and use that for the rest of your life.
 
sounds like a legit plan. so if one was to start torem for pct and doesnt like it just switch to clomi? even tho its mid pct
 
UnrealMachine said:
You guys know how I have concluded that there is no "best" steroid but people will respond to them differently and some work great for some people and work poorly for others.

I think SERMs are the same way... your mileage may vary and so I don't think there can be one that's "best" for everybody

Based on my experience, i'd side with Crazychemist, nolva for on cycle estrogen and gyno issues, clomid for PCT. Some people get bad sides from clomid though, and for some people toremifene works great, for me I thought toremifene sucked... I say try them all out, see which one works best, and use that for the rest of your life.
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Agreed. Remember in alot of these cases we are dealing with competitive inhibition, so molecules that look like estrogen but aren't bind to receptors adn block that receptor site. Everyone's body is a little different and its possible one SERM maybe shuttled to the site more efficiently than another.
 
I found these two posts on another website, and thought they'd be a great addition to the info already posted in this thread. Just helping to create a nice one stop shop for injectable info.

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