TRUE OR FALSE?

[KingAnt]

Ralox and Exemestane are great for treating gyno, but you have self-diagnosed yourself as having gyno. How do you know the puffiness is not just subcutaneous fat?

You are ending your cycle, correct? So, you need to PCT now. Raloxifene is not an ideal SERM for PCT purposes. Ralox is only slightly better in studies than is Nolva in regards to binding to and inactivating the ER in breast tissue. Nolva, is however, much better at stimulating the HPTA and boosting Testosterone in males when compared to Raloxifene.

See my previous post for your best PCT option and "gyno" reduction protocol. You'll kill two birds with this stone if you use Tamoxifen (Nolva) instead of Raloxifene.

Correct I'm self diagnosing and I don't have bloodwork.
I know I'm an idiot.
But I'm really positive that's it's not fat. I'm a pretty lean dude and my pecs are are my favorite muscle to workout so I pay extra close attention to my chest and what I'm experiencing is not normal for me plus this is my first cycle so I'm assuming my body didn't know how to handle the extra test ( but that's just my total made up opinion with no actually science behind it that I'm aware of )
And the dude at my local shop checked me out and agreed.
I totally understand what your getting at. But last week I told my self that I was just trippen and that I'm fine. But it has gotten worse.
Correct I'm ending my cycle now.

 

[hairygrandpa]

You are not an Idiot. My guess is, you are right in your assumptions. Best luck to you!

 

[KingAnt]

Ok so after some discussion I have come to agree with Toren and hairygrandpa.
It's seems that I am going to run Toren pct protocol and re-evaluate after pct. and if that doesn't seem to work then I will run hairygrandpa ralox protocol until my titties subside.
Again, does have any conflicting opinions or other tips for me or anything that I should know? Considering this will be my first time running any of this stuff.

 

[hairygrandpa]

If anything goes not as planned, come back and ask. I expect a smooth ride.

 

[KingAnt]

Thanks hairygrandpa. And Thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. Every piece of input is something learned and it all counts especially to someone who is new to this. It's helps a lot to have a bunch of people throwing out different ideas and getting everyone's opinions. I will keep everyone updated as to how recovery is going.

I guess my next question would be how to avoid this sort of thing during cycle?
I've seen some people run arimistane during cycle at low doses every other day? How can this be avoid for next time?

 

[hairygrandpa]

Thanks hairygrandpa. And Thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. Every piece of input is something learned and it all counts especially to someone who is new to this. It's helps a lot to have a bunch of people throwing out different ideas and getting everyone's opinions. I will keep everyone updated as to how recovery is going.

I guess my next question would be how to avoid this sort of thing during cycle?
I've seen some people run arimistane during cycle at low doses every other day? How can this be avoid for next time?

Save that question for after your PCT. Way too many unknowns, like what you wanna use and such....

 

[KingAnt]

Save that question for after your PCT. Way too many unknowns, like what you wanna use and such....

Good point.

 

[KingAnt]

OP - Throwing the kitchen sink at some 'puffiness' is probably the worst thing you could do right now. Especially since you have zero experience with any of these compounds. You'll be in for a hormonal roller-coaster that you will not know how to manage. Short of bloodwork, you're just guessing....

If your plan is to stop your cycle, it's simple - PCT with Nolva and Exemestane. Tried and true.

Nolva (Tamoxifen): 20/10/10/10
Exemestane: 6.25/6.25/6.25/6.25/6.25 (3x per week for 3 weeks followed by 2x per week for the last 2 - evenly spaced out)

Re-evaluate in a few weeks.

You think 20/10/10/10 will be good? I've seen people mostly do 20/20/10/10 or even 40/40/20/20/10 ( prob for a more heavy stack )

 

[hairygrandpa]

You think 20/10/10/10 will be good? I've seen people mostly do 20/20/10/10 or even 40/40/20/20/10 ( prob for a more heavy stack )

I'd go with the 40/40/20/20/10.... it's no ordinary PCT, you want to get rid of tits too, right?

 

[Toren]

You think 20/10/10/10 will be good? I've seen people mostly do 20/20/10/10 or even 40/40/20/20/10 ( prob for a more heavy stack )

That protocol should be more than enough for a 1/4-DHEA cycle. You could do the 2nd week at 20 if you like. Your last suggestion would likely be extreme overkill.

You could always add a 5th or 6th week (at 10mg) if necessary. Side-effects from higher dosing of SERMs is not worth it. And if it truly is gyno, duration on SERM will likely be more important than high-dosing over a shorter period of time.

 

[KingAnt]

I'd go with the 40/40/20/20/10.... it's no ordinary PCT, you want to get rid of tits too, right?

Yeah definetly want to get rid of titties

 

[KingAnt]

That protocol should be more than enough for a 1/4-DHEA cycle. You could do the 2nd week at 20 if you like. Your last suggestion would likely be extreme overkill.

You could always add a 5th or 6th week (at 10mg) if necessary. Side-effects from higher dosing of SERMs is not worth it. And if it truly is gyno, duration on SERM will likely be more important than high-dosing over a shorter period of time.

I was just gonna ask what would be the negative sides of high does on nolva ? Maybe it would be worth it just to make sure I'm doing the best I can to get rid of it.

 

[hairygrandpa]

That protocol should be more than enough for a 1/4-DHEA cycle. You could do the 2nd week at 20 if you like. Your last suggestion would likely be extreme overkill.

You could always add a 5th or 6th week (at 10mg) if necessary. Side-effects from higher dosing of SERMs is not worth it. And if it truly is gyno, duration on SERM will likely be more important than high-dosing over a shorter period of time.

For gyno reversal I would have to look up the receptor saturation dosage of nolva -but would say its at the higher end, like with ralox at 60mg/d opposed to 30mg/d.
Also, I would favor an approach like with ralox, by lowering estrogen first, before implementing the serm, like 25mg exem for 2-3 days before nolva.

What do you think?

 

[Toren]

I was just gonna ask what would be the negative sides of high does on nolva ? Maybe it would be worth it just to make sure I'm doing the best I can to get rid of it.

I understand the worry but I think you're over-thinking it. The combination of a SERM and an AI will do wonders for anything gyno-related. I've had success with both 10 and 20mg of Tamoxifen for just this reason. And we're talking about an actual hardened lump here.

It's up to you what dose you want to take but I don't think 40mg is necessary - 20 will work just fine.

See how things go over the first 2-3 weeks and then re-evaluate.

 

[Renew1]

Ok so after some discussion I have come to agree with Toren and hairygrandpa.
It's seems that I am going to run Toren pct protocol and re-evaluate after pct. and if that doesn't seem to work then I will run hairygrandpa ralox protocol until my titties subside.
Again, does have any conflicting opinions or other tips for me or anything that I should know? Considering this will be my first time running any of this stuff.

Good deal, bro!

 

[hairygrandpa]

When it comes to dosages, its almost always individual. Hell, I remember doing clomid at 200mg/d as suggested on some websites.
If OP goes with a lower dosage, he always can up it a notch to see if sides arise. What about lowering e2 beforehand?

 

[Toren]

For gyno reversal I would have to look up the receptor saturation dosage of nolva -but would say its at the higher end, like with ralox at 60mg/d opposed to 30mg/d.
Also, I would favor an approach like with ralox, by lowering estrogen first, before implementing the serm, like 25mg exem for 2-3 days before nolva.

What do you think?

I've never looked up the "saturation point" of Tamoxifen but I do know that 20-40mg is the typical dosing range. 40mg being given to men and women for treating breast cancer, while 20mg is used for preventative measures. In regards to Test boosting, I've had a typical Tamox 20/20/10/10 put me just above the normal Test range for males so it should work in that regard.

I'd start them both at the same time, as soon as they arrive. They will work in different ways and I don't really see any overlap. The SERM will be the strongest weapon here. I also don't think it's wise to drastically lower estrogen during this time period. keeping it lowish while the SERM blocks binding is the best option in my opinion. Drastically lowering aromatase has the potential to upregulate the enzyme as the body tries to check and balance itself.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I've never looked up the "saturation point" of Tamoxifen but I do know that 20-40mg is the typical dosing range. 40mg being given to men and women for treating breast cancer, while 20mg is used for preventative measures. In regards to Test boosting, I've had a typical Tamox 20/20/10/10 put me just above the normal Test range for males so it should work in that regard.

I'd start them both at the same time, as soon as they arrive. They will work in different ways and I don't really see any overlap. The SERM will be the strongest weapon here. I also don't think it's wise to drastically lower estrogen during this time period. keeping it lowish while the SERM blocks binding is the best option in my opinion. Drastically lowering aromatase has the potential to upregulate the enzyme as the body tries to check and balance itself.

What about a middle way, like:

Tamox: 30/30/20/20/15
Exem: 6.25mg eod and afterwards 6.25mg once a week for 2 weeks to avoid rebound?

Thing is, if the nolva dose is too low and gyno persists, he has to do it all over again with ralox. Better safe than sorry -and 30mg nolva seems reasonable to me.

 

[KingAnt]

What about a middle way, like:

Tamox: 30/30/20/20/15
Exem: 6.25mg eod and afterwards 6.25mg once a week for 2 weeks to avoid rebound?

Thing is, if the nolva dose is too low and gyno persists, he has to do it all over again with ralox. Better safe than sorry -and 30mg nolva seems reasonable to me.

I tend to agree with hairygrandpa although Toren is very knowledgeable. Toren Seems like it's a little more on the safe side, which is fine. But I like the more aggressive approach to annihilating the gyno 1st try. And if it doesn't work at least I'll know I gave it all I got. Then I can begin ralox.
But by all means I appreciate the conversation and I'm learning a great deal by reading all this. And appreciate the help In finding the best program for me. It's great to know that you guys are givening it all you got towards this, as if it was one of you guys that has gyno lol.
Many people will read this and it will help many more. Not just me.

 

[Toren]

What about a middle way, like:

Tamox: 30/30/20/20/15
Exem: 6.25mg eod and afterwards 6.25mg once a week for 2 weeks to avoid rebound?

Thing is, if the nolva dose is too low and gyno persists, he has to do it all over again with ralox. Better safe than sorry -and 30mg nolva seems reasonable to me.

There are a number of different protocols that could be succesful in the long run - starting at 30 could work too. Slight variations are hard to really measure. If it were me, I'd add a few weeks onto the end of the protocol as opposed to hammering it out of the gate. In my opinion, the longer you starve the gland, the less likely you are to have a rebound experience.

I think he'll be fine though. Time is his friend when he's got the weapons to help in the fight.

 

[Toren]

Good luck with your PCT, Ant. And congratulations on your latest movie showing in theatres now!

 

[hairygrandpa]

There are a number of different protocols that could be succesful in the long run - starting at 30 could work too. Slight variations are hard to really measure. If it were me, I'd add a few weeks onto the end of the protocol as opposed to hammering it out of the gate. In my opinion, the longer you starve the gland, the less you are likely to have a rebound experience.

I think he'll be fine though. Time is his friend when he's got the weapons to help in the fight.

He can prolong the nolva use if a rest of gyno is detectable, I agree.

 

[KingAnt]

Good luck with your PCT, Ant. And congratulations on your latest movie showing in theatres now!

Shhhh. I'm Trying to keep it low key bro. Don't need the world knowing ant man has titties cuz he was tryin to get jacked for his movie.

 

[KingAnt]

Ok guys I just received my research Chems...I am commencing PCT/gyno killer protocol. As directed above.
This is my first PCT ever and definetly my first self diagnosed gyno case.

Side note-- I've notice my pecs getting softer and more swollen looking behind the nipple.
Also, the left one is bigger then the right one. And I can feel hard masses behind the nipple.

Been having headache the last few days. I think probably from the over the counter A.I. I been taking.

Wish me luck and please offer any tips or tricks if available.

I gotta say, this ****in gyno **** is whack.

 

[Matthersby]

What did you end up deciding on? Nolva/exem?

 

[KingAnt]

What did you end up deciding on? Nolva/exem?

Yes. Nolva/ exem protocol. I'm gonna start with 12.5 exem for 3 days then begin the nolva/exem as outlined above.

I'm on day two of exem 12.5 and I'm pretty confident that the exem is making the swollen puffy look go down.

I have been feeling like **** lately though.
Feel super weak, slight headaches if I don't stay on top of my hydration, and I just have an all around weird kinda feeling that's hard to explain.

I would assume it's cuz my hormones are jacked up but I guess it could be placebo that im not not taking anymore gear related suppz for the moment. Or this exem and the over the counter A.I. I was taking prior to receiving the exem.
Or this being my first cycle maybe it's normal to feel this way when starting PCT. I'm not sure.

What do you guys think?

 

[Matthersby]

Yes. Nolva/ exem protocol. I'm gonna start with 12.5 exem for 3 days then begin the nolva/exem as outlined above.

I'm on day two of exem 12.5 and I'm pretty confident that the exem is making the swollen puffy look go down.

I have been feeling like **** lately though.
Feel super weak, slight headaches if I don't stay on top of my hydration, and I just have an all around weird kinda feeling that's hard to explain.

I would assume it's cuz my hormones are jacked up but I guess it could be placebo that im not not taking anymore gear related suppz for the moment. Or this exem and the over the counter A.I. I was taking prior to receiving the exem.
Or this being my first cycle maybe it's normal to feel this way when starting PCT. I'm not sure.

What do you guys think?

I haven’t had to come off for a while, but I know it effs with your head for a couple weeks when you do, especially energy-wise. I think it’s just the loss of that super-energy from Test. I can sleep less, and do ALOT more on test. Kinda the reason why I don’t ever get off it.

 

[Rad83]

Just read thru this whole thread, sorry to hear of this experience!

It’s definitely one of those things that make me afraid to ever run anything....I’ve been researching the Andros for some time and aren’t they ‘generally safe’ ?

Hope it ends well and will be following thread

 

[Country]

I got my glands removed but i had gyno so bad that wearing a shirt hurt like hell imo lectro is the best to take care of it but when i took lectro it made me feel like **** but worked. Finally i just got mine removed

 

[BlockBuilder]

Just came across this on Instagram. Disappointed bro

 

[KingAnt]

I haven’t had to come off for a while, but I know it effs with your head for a couple weeks when you do, especially energy-wise. I think it’s just the loss of that super-energy from Test. I can sleep less, and do ALOT more on test. Kinda the reason why I don’t ever get off it.

Yeah I was kinda thinking it may be just because my test isn't being supplemented anymore.
Today's work out was better. So that makes me a little more at ease.

 

[KingAnt]

I got my glands removed but i had gyno so bad that wearing a shirt hurt like hell imo lectro is the best to take care of it but when i took lectro it made me feel like **** but worked. Finally i just got mine removed

See mine don't hurt like at all. I can feel little masses in there. And it hurt for like two days but I think it was sore from me feeling around so much. I'm actually trying not to feel for them so much anymore cuz I don't want to irritate or inflame anything. Just gonna start nolva tomarrow and hope it goes down.

Letro took the hard masses away?
How long did it take? And what did your letro cycle look like?

 

[KingAnt]

Just read thru this whole thread, sorry to hear of this experience!

It’s definitely one of those things that make me afraid to ever run anything....I’ve been researching the Andros for some time and aren’t they ‘generally safe’ ?

Hope it ends well and will be following thread

Yeah they are suppose to be generally safe.
I ran a bottle of spartan mass a year ago straight as the directions suggested.
And felt great. No sides except my hair was thinning out a bit. But that stopped when I stopped taking it. I would not call it a cycle though.
I this time I took "the-1" and "mandro the giant."
Got super lethargic from the 1 so put some mandro in the cycle and it helped tremendously with the lethargy but now my nipples are puffy.

I think it may be because of my first time running anything and at my age my test is naturally high anyways my body didn't know how to handle the extra test so it started rapidly converting it into estrogen.
I was not taking any sort of A.I. While on cycle to stop aromatase from taking place.
But that's just my opinion. I don't have bloods. So idk what actually happened or is going on.

 

[KingAnt]

Hey guys, so I been doing some more research on this nolva protocol. And all looks good but a lot of people start with 40/40 as 50/50 is what's prescribed for breast cancer patients. Obviously this isn't breast cancer so 40/40 should be ok. And some people seem to think to stay on the nolva protocol until lumps subside.
So in a sense it's combining hairygrandpa and Toren ideas together by starting hard with 40/40 suggested by hairygrandpa and staying on it suggested by Toren. I kinda like the idea of 40/40/30/30/20 or maybe even 40/40/30/30/20/20/10/10??? Depending on how I feel the progress is going.

I'm just shootin ideas out there as this is kinda a big deal for me. And would like to kill it the first time instead of starting over with ralox.
But again my knowledge of this stuff is limited. I just tend to go the more direct and aggressive approach in life.

Justifying myself with the idea that if 40/40/30/30/20 or 40/40/30/30/20/20/10/10 doesn't work then at least I gave it my best and I won't have the thought in the back of my head like "what if".

Opinions.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Hey guys, so I been doing some more research on this nolva protocol. And all looks good but a lot of people start with 40/40 as 50/50 is what's prescribed for breast cancer patients. Obviously this isn't breast cancer so 40/40 should be ok. And some people seem to think to stay on the nolva protocol until lumps subside.
So in a sense it's combining hairygrandpa and Toren ideas together by starting hard with 40/40 suggested by hairygrandpa and staying on it suggested by Toren. I kinda like the idea of 40/40/30/30/20 or maybe even 40/40/30/30/20/20/10/10??? Depending on how I feel the progress is going.

I'm just shootin ideas out there as this is kinda a big deal for me. And would like to kill it the first time instead of starting over with ralox.
But again my knowledge of this stuff is limited. I just tend to go the more direct and aggressive approach in life.

Justifying myself with the idea that if 40/40/30/30/20 or 40/40/30/30/20/20/10/10 doesn't work then at least I gave it my best and I won't have the thought in the back of my head like "what if".

Opinions.

Just do the 40/40/30/30/20 and prolong if needed. Just watch the rebound and use a bit of exem afterwards. Do NOT fiddle with Letro -or even think about doing it at this point.

 

[KingAnt]

Just do the 40/40/30/30/20 and prolong if needed. Just watch the rebound and use a bit of exem afterwards. Do NOT fiddle with Letro -or even think about doing it at this point.

Gotcha. Thanks

 

[KingAnt]

I'm on day 3 of nolva week 1 and it seems to be taking the puffiness down and keeping it down.
Placebo? I don't really know.
I feel better, workouts are much better. And so far so good.

 

[Matthersby]

I don’t think there’s any way to gauge that. I have thrown 4 different things at gyno before, and ordered some Inhibit-P and day one it subsided. I’ve got a friend that will run Dbol test and tren with no AI. Ever. And if he gets gyno symptoms he’ll take nolva only for 3 days. And he swears it goes away every time that quick. It’s not that easy for me. I carry an Arsenal and if it gets carried away, it won’t subside until I’m crushing estrogen with 3 heavily doses ancillaries at a time.

 

[KingAnt]

Ok guys I'm on day 8 of pct (40/day, nolva and 6.25/eod, exem)
The first couple days everything was good and I actually thought it was helping the puffiness go down. (Prob Placebo) or (it was effective due to my 3 day load up of exem prior to pct. exem 12.5/3days). After about day 4 or 5 I noticed the protocol would only bring down puffiness for a few hours after dose. I gave it a couple days and this morning when I dosed the same thing happened, it brought down puffiness for a couple hours.
Also, I noticed the left pec is bigger then the right and both nipples and the little masses are beginning to get sensitive. Is this normal ?
What should I expect ?
Any tips?

It's only week one and I plan on running for at least 6-8weeks. I'm going to continue of course. But curious on your thoughts

If puffy/swollen look at nipple was prolactin related would this protocol still help?

 

[Matthersby]

RC’s are notorious for underdosing. I will work up to whatever dose makes gyno diminish. Or move to Letro and Raloxifene(that should do the trick, strongest combo out there.) I’ll crush estrogen before I get moobs

 

[boooosted]

RC’s are notorious for underdosing. I will work up to whatever dose makes gyno diminish. Or move to Letro and Raloxifene(that should do the trick, strongest combo out there.) I’ll crush estrogen before I get moobs

100%. If I'm sure it's gyno I'm not toying around with exem and nolva. Straight to letro and ralox and it's worked great in the past when nothing else did.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Ok guys I'm on day 8 of pct (40/day, nolva and 6.25/eod, exem)
The first couple days everything was good and I actually thought it was helping the puffiness go down. (Prob Placebo) or (it was effective due to my 3 day load up of exem prior to pct. exem 12.5/3days). After about day 4 or 5 I noticed the protocol would only bring down puffiness for a few hours after dose. I gave it a couple days and this morning when I dosed the same thing happened, it brought down puffiness for a couple hours.
Also, I noticed the left pec is bigger then the right and both nipples and the little masses are beginning to get sensitive. Is this normal ?
What should I expect ?
Any tips?

It's only week one and I plan on running for at least 6-8weeks. I'm going to continue of course. But curious on your thoughts

If puffy/swollen look at nipple was prolactin related would this protocol still help?

If it is prolactin related, Serms and AI's do not help -but I don't think its prolactin. Why would it be high? As others said, RC's may be underdosed, you could bump up the dose of nolva by 10mg. The eod exem isn't necessary IMHO, but can not hurt.

From the beginning I advocated a Ralox + Exem protocol.... -but as you already needed a PCT, nolva first, as ralox isn't a good HPTA starter. You can do the ralox afterwards anyway.

 

[Matthersby]

If it is prolactin related, Serms and AI's do not help -but I don't think its prolactin. Why would it be high? As others said, RC's may be underdosed, you could bump up the dose of nolva by 10mg. The eod exem isn't necessary IMHO, but can not heard.

From the beginning I advocated a Ralox + Exem protocol.... -but as you already needed a PCT, nolva first, as ralox isn't a good HPTA starter. You can do the ralox afterwards anyway.

Good advice here ^

 

[KingAnt]

Good advice here ^

Agreed.

 

[KingAnt]

Ok so today I did 50 tamo and nips seemed to be less puffy and stayed hard for longer. I also dosed 15 exem last night before bed. (Good news)

However I got home and noticed my left pec is bigger then the right and has more tissue underneath the skin then the right does. If it gets much bigger or oddly shaped I'm gonna get a bit worried.

 

[Matthersby]

I think we need pics at this point. That’s a load of Nolva. I think Letro/Ralox is next and you are gonna end up crushing your estrogen but I’m wondering if we are chasing this down a rabbithole... are they itchy burning and throbbing? Or just puffy? Are 1,4 Andro known for causing Nolva-resistant gyno? I’m baffled at this point.

 

[Toren]

Ok so today I did 50 tamo and nips seemed to be less puffy and stayed hard for longer. I also dosed 15 exem last night before bed. (Good news)

However I got home and noticed my left pec is bigger then the right and has more tissue underneath the skin then the right does. If it gets much bigger or oddly shaped I'm gonna get a bit worried.

Listen bro, don't take this the wrong way but you need to relax a bit and adjust your expectations. I understand pectoral lumps and tenderness are a bit upsetting but you are doing yourself no favours with what you are doing right now. You can not adjust the dose of your compounds day to day and expect that a miracle is going to happen. As I told you before, if this truly is gyno, it is a game of patience. You DO NOT "cure" gyno in 8 days. This can take many weeks. Hammering the dosage or continually upping your dosage without allowing the current protocol to actually do it's work is only to your detriment - these are prescription drugs afterall. There are actual clinical studies done on men that show tamoxifen is effective against gyno at just 10mg. The drugs that you are taking are not without consequence so you always want to take the lowest dose you can take while still being effective. Your problem is your expectations - they are not in line with how actual gyno is treated.

As I mentioned to you before, stick to a protocol and re-evaluate in 2-3 weeks. If you do get to a point where the lumps are gone, you would then continue your protocol for an additional 2-3 weeks to further starve the tissue/gland in the hope that it will hold "long-term".

I have dealt with these problems before and patience and sticking to your protocol is what's best. The likelihood that you are a non-responder to both drugs is miniscule. In fact, the changing of symptoms is a good thing.

My most effective protocol included a Tamox/Exem PCT where I "bridged" (with some overlap) into a few weeks of Raloxifene as I tapered down my Tamox. That's something you could consider, but again, re-evaluate your symptoms in no-less than 2 weeks.

And to one of your previous questions, yes, increased tenderness of lumps/nipple is possible and likely to happen while you are using an AI/SERM. The tissue is reacting to real-time hormonal changes that you are initiating by taking hormone modulators. I've had increased tenderness on both Tamox and Ralox at different times. On both occasions, the tenderness subsided fairly quickly and the lump quickly got smaller.

 

[Toren]

Where are the lumps anyway? How many? Do you realize there are lymph nodes in various parts of the chest? Some which are somewhat close to the nipple.....

 

[KingAnt]

Listen bro, don't take this the wrong way but you need to relax a bit and adjust your expectations. I understand pectoral lumps and tenderness are a bit upsetting but you are doing yourself no favours with what you are doing right now. You can not adjust the dose of your compunds day to day and expect that a miracle is going to happen. As I told you before, if this truly is gyno, it is a game of patience. You DO NOT "cure" gyno in 8 days. This can take many weeks. Hammering the dosage or continually upping your dosage without allowing the current protocol to actually do it's work is only to your detriment - these are prescription drugs afterall. There are actual clinical studies done on men that show tamoxifen is effective against gyno at just 10mg. The drugs that you are taking are not without consequence so you always want to take the lowest dose you can take while still being effective. Your problem is your expectations - they are not in line with how actual gyno is treated.

As I mentioned to you before, stick to a protocol and re-evaluate in 2-3 weeks. If you do get to a point where the lumps are gone, you would then continue your protocol for an additional 2-3 weeks to further starve the tissue/gland in the hope that it will hold "long-term".

I have dealt with these problems before and patience and sticking to your protocol is what's best. The likelihood that you are a non-responder to both drugs is miniscule. In fact, the changing of symptoms is a good thing.

My most effective protocol included a Tamox/Exem PCT where I "bridged" (with some overlap) into a few weeks of Raloxifene as I tapered down my Tamox. That's something you could consider, but again, re-evaluate your symptoms in no-less than 2 weeks.

And to one of your previous questions, yes, increased tenderness of lumps/nipple is possible and likely to happen while you are using an AI/SERM. The tissue is reacting to real-time hormonal changes that you are initiating by taking hormone modulators. I've had increased tenderness on both Tamox and Ralox at different times. On both occasions, the tenderness subsided fairly quickly and the lump quickly got smaller.

Yeah, your right man. I'm kinda trippen myself out.

 

[Toren]

Yeah, your right man. I'm kinda trippen myself out.

I get it, I do. Just give it some time and re-evaluate. That's about all you can reasonably do right now.