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Toremifene (fareston) - for Dr.D and others

bioman said:
So far..yes, but it is kinda early to tell. The boys are back to normal..even before the Oratropin use and I am not loosing much of my gains for a change (knock on wood!), Tmaox wrecks my skin..this seems pretty benign so far. A little acne but not bad and no blotchiness.

I feel fully recovered already..good mood, don't feel suppressed at all. Nicest PCT ever to compliment the nicest cycle ever.
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thanks for the feedback bioman. I won't be doing a pct for another couple months but this will definately be my pct serm. Can't wait. For once I am not dreading the start of pct.
 
I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly...toremifene can substitute (and should work better) nolva for pct and during a cycle.
Please correct me if I am wrong

Now what I am still unclear with is..can toremifene be used as pct in substitute for both clomid and nolva?,
 
PHWSSJ said:
I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly...toremifene can substitute (and should work better) nolva for pct and during a cycle.
Please correct me if I am wrong

Now what I am still unclear with is..can toremifene be used as pct in substitute for both clomid and nolva?,
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as far i know yeas
 
It is structurally similar to tamoxifene with lower toxicity and a higher binding affinity to ER. This supposedly stimulates the HPTA a bit harder and from what I can tell so far, it seems to.
 
bioman said:
It is structurally similar to tamoxifene with lower toxicity and a higher binding affinity to ER. This supposedly stimulates the HPTA a bit harder and from what I can tell so far, it seems to.
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Day two for me, and I can tell something is going on already. It seems like I'm a couple days behind you on this PCT, and I'm following your footsteps. Look out behind you.:stick:
 
Careful with that stick :hammer:

I'll be anxious to hear other's testamonials of this. Being the first one with good results always makes me wonder if I am going crazy or living in placebo-denialville.
 
I'll be using it for the first time in about 4 weeks...after a 27 weeker.

ba dum ba dummmm... dum dum dummmmmmm

Should be a pretty good test indeed.
 
bioman said:
... Being the first one with good results always makes me wonder if I am going crazy or living in placebo-denialville.
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You're not alone, Bio. I started Sunday night too and it's just as good I remembered it. :)

IBE was kind enough to send me a sample. I asked him to because I admit I was skeptical that he had found a real soure. I figured someone was trying to sell him 'high price tamoxifen' most likely. It's no scam though! I tested it personally and it assays extremely pure. I won't post results without his permission, but I've tell you guys I was impressed. He has the real deal. :thumbsup:
 
DR.D said:
You're not alone, Bio. I started Sunday night too and it's just as good I remembered it. :)

IBE was kind enough to send me a sample. I asked him to because I admit I was skeptical that he had found a real soure. I figured someone was trying to sell him 'high price tamoxifen' most likely. It's no scam though! I tested it personally and it assays extremely pure. I won't post results without his permission, but I've tell you guys I was impressed. He has the real deal. :thumbsup:
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That's good to know.:thumbsup: :dance:
 
Ok, I am a bit confused now...

Lets say a test subject is running a cycle.
Now instead of keeping nolva on hand to combat gyno the reasercher would use toremifene on his subject. And when the cycle is over ..for post cycle therapy the reasercher would give his test subject clomid and toremifene or just toremifene or toremifene and something else?

A buddy of mine did some research on toremifene reading medical studies and he said that it really isnt any better than nolva ?????

Dr. D or anyone else that really understands this stuff please help shed some light on this issue ...this sounds very interesting.

Thanks
 
PHWSSJ said:
Ok, I am a bit confused now...

Lets say a test subject is running a cycle.
Now instead of keeping nolva on hand to combat gyno the reasercher would use toremifene on his subject. And when the cycle is over ..for post cycle therapy the reasercher would give his test subject clomid and toremifene or just toremifene or toremifene and something else?

A buddy of mine did some research on toremifene reading medical studies and he said that it really isnt any better than nolva ?????

Dr. D or anyone else that really understands this stuff please help shed some light on this issue ...this sounds very interesting.

Thanks
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toremifene is a replacement for either nolva/clomid...at least thats what I had been thinking..
 
I would say clomid would not be necessary as Torm reverses testicular atrophy literally within a few days...if not practically overnight. For that reason alone, I will utilize it from here on out as rapid recovery means less chance of losing gains.

I would say it is better or at least faster than Nolva at reducing gyno as a test subject of mine had the beginnings of gyno and it is now gone. Take that FWIW I suppose but I am sold so far.

Subject started cycle at 169, ended at a bloaty 191 and is currently holding at 186 at day 9 of pct. Not bad IMO.
 
bioman said:
I would say clomid would not be necessary as Torm reverses testicular atrophy literally within a few days...if not practically overnight. For that reason alone, I will utilize it from here on out as rapid recovery means less chance of losing gains.

I would say it is better or at least faster than Nolva at reducing gyno as a test subject of mine had the beginnings of gyno and it is now gone. Take that FWIW I suppose but I am sold so far.

Subject started cycle at 169, ended at a bloaty 191 and is currently holding at 186 at day 9 of pct. Not bad IMO.
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Ok ...so far sounding pretty good.

Dr.D or anyone else..the more feedback the better!
 
I'm planning on using this for PCT after my upcoming SD/M-TRN cycle, hows this dosing schedule look?

Day 1-4: 120mg Toremifene
Day 5-9: 90mg Toremifene
Day 10-19: 60mg Toremifene
Day 20-28: 30mg Toremifene

Lasts exactly 4 weeks using exactly 1 bottle from IBE (1800mg).
 
bioman said:
I would say clomid would not be necessary as Torm reverses testicular atrophy literally within a few days...if not practically overnight.
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I concur with this statement sir. They are back somewhat like they never left on day 3.
 
I was thinking of running 8 weeks of test base along with 3 weeks of SD in the future, and would like to go longer, but I don't feel like using HCG for this cycle. If I were to use toremiphene do you all think it is effective enough to extend my cycle to the 12 or 16 week mark without HCG provided that I were to use toremiphene instead of nolva for PCT?
 
PHWSSJ said:
Ok ...so far sounding pretty good.

Dr.D or anyone else..the more feedback the better!
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I agree with Bio and Matt212. It works so darn fast, you don't need Clomid. Plus, I usually switch to Nolva after a few weeks just to avoid development of emotional sides from the Clomid, but the Toremifene has no such sides, so why switch? Plus, it's non-carcinogenic and doesn't hinder libido like the Nolva. It's really all you need. It totally replaces Nolva and Clomid for all purposes you might use a SERM. Of course, in PCT it's usually done it's job in about 2 wks or less, so you could switch to a more economical SERM to finish with, but I'd just lower the Toremifene dose (to like 30mg) and finish with that.

With Toremifene, you may be tempted to stop after a week because your nuts can return unusually fast, but always do a proper PCT to be safe (at least a month IMO). For 8-16 wk cycles, do 2 months PCT.
 
DR.D said:
I agree with Bio and Matt212. It works so darn fast, you don't need Clomid. Plus, I usually switch to Nolva after a few weeks just to avoid development of emotional sides from the Clomid, but the Toremifene has no such sides, so why switch? Plus, it's non-carcinogenic and doesn't hinder libido like the Nolva. It's really all you need. It totally replaces Nolva and Clomid for all purposes you might use a SERM. Of course, in PCT it's usually done it's job in about 2 wks or less, so you could switch to a more economical SERM to finish with, but I'd just lower the Toremifene dose (to like 30mg) and finish with that.

With Toremifene, you may be tempted to stop after a week because your nuts can return unusually fast, but always do a proper PCT to be safe (at least a month IMO). For 8-16 wk cycles, do 2 months PCT.
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for a 16 week cycle how would something like this sound:

Day 1-4: 120mg Toremifene
Day 5-9: 90mg Toremifene
Day 10-19: 60mg Toremifene
Day 20-28: 30mg Toremifene
week 5-7: nolva 40,20,20
week 1-8: retain 3 caps/day
week 1-8: Powerfull 9 caps/day
week 1-2: ATD 25mg/day
week 3-6: ATD 50mg/day
week 7-8: ATD 75mg/day
week 1-8: CEE 4-5g/day
 
mywetnightmares said:
for a 16 week cycle how would something like this sound:

Day 1-4: 120mg Toremifene
Day 5-9: 90mg Toremifene
Day 10-19: 60mg Toremifene
Day 20-28: 30mg Toremifene
week 5-7: nolva 40,20,20
week 1-8: retain 3 caps/day
week 1-8: Powerfull 9 caps/day
week 1-2: ATD 25mg/day
week 3-6: ATD 50mg/day
week 7-8: ATD 75mg/day
week 1-8: CEE 4-5g/day
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Sounds like way too much imo. If toremifene works this well you should not need nolva. But this is just me. I would start my pct and see where I am at around week four. The thing is guys is not only is it more effective than nolva but much safer on the body. So if you can afford it and need to run a serm 5 or 6 weeks run tor. for another week or two at 30mg.

I am hoping this works as well for me as everyone else. I would love to phase out nolva and clomid altogether. Even if it is 30 $ more a bottle.

Grifter, atd is never necessary but for me it really helps. If you like using an atd product like rxt during pct then keep doing so.
 
I am still running an Ai with this because I keep getting excess estrogen build up...puffy nips able to exude water. In that respect, it's just like running nolva and I do not think it redundant to run atd or an ai with it if it was a really wet cycle.

I think 4AD metabolites stick around for awhile as I always have this problem for weeks after a cycle when using it.
 
The only reason I threw nolva into the mix is because I have an extra bottle from when IBE had their nolva backordered and the sent me a free bottle. If it's really unnecessary then I probly wouldn't use it.

Don't think that PCT is overkill for a 16 week cycle, except the nolva may be unnecessary but other wise I have a SERM, an AI, a cortisol controller, and a libido booster/natural anabolic. Each serves a valuable purpose within my PCT.
 
Libido is back. I repeat, Libido is back. In the words of that old T.V. show:

:welcome: back, :welcome: back:welcome: back:welcome: back.

No puffy nipples here for me. Still take ATD at 25mg just because. I don't know if it's just me, but I'm definitely feeling the effects as far as well being. Strength is still up.:thumbsup:
 
matt212 said:
Libido is back. I repeat, Libido is back. In the words of that old T.V. show:

:welcome: back, :welcome: back:welcome: back:welcome: back.
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Yeah, I'm hearing what you're saying..... but is your libido back or what?
 
Still trying to find the optimal way to take without that taste making it into a 2 hour spit session.:rasp: The best I found so far is to take a oral syringe and shove all the way to the back and squeeze. :jaw: then :run: , to the sink, and commence to :rasp: . I guess I could dilute, but I don't like anything watered down. Even with liquor, when I do drink, I just add ice.
 
matt212 said:
Still trying to find the optimal way to take without that taste making it into a 2 hour spit session.:rasp: The best I found so far is to take a oral syringe and shove all the way to the back and squeeze. :jaw: then :run: , to the sink, and commence to :rasp: . I guess I could dilute, but I don't like anything watered down. Even with liquor, when I do drink, I just add ice.
Click to expand...

Just buy some "00 capsules". Open it up, squirt in the liguid, pop on the top and swallow before it loses structrual integrity. No taste whatsoever. I do it with all my research chems. One capsule holds almost exactly 1ml.
 
mywetnightmares said:
for a 16 week cycle how would something like this sound:

Day 1-4: 120mg Toremifene
Day 5-9: 90mg Toremifene
Day 10-19: 60mg Toremifene
Day 20-28: 30mg Toremifene
week 5-7: nolva 40,20,20
week 1-8: retain 3 caps/day
week 1-8: Powerfull 9 caps/day
week 1-2: ATD 25mg/day
week 3-6: ATD 50mg/day
week 7-8: ATD 75mg/day
week 1-8: CEE 4-5g/day
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I'd just keep the Nolva to 20mg in wk5-7. If your coming off of 30mg w/ the Tor, 40mg of Nolva is overkill. You may or may not even need to extent into month 2 with the Nolva, but if you run out of Tor and have the Nolva on hand and think you need it you can.

I'd run the ATD at 25mg wk 1-4 and at 50mg wk5-8 or 10. It isn't needed, but I still like it there personally.

Also, I'd taper the retain like 3,3,2,1 or something like that. Cortisol should really be back under control after 3-4wks. Besides that fine tuning, the rest looks pretty solid.
 
matt212 said:
Still trying to find the optimal way to take without that taste making it into a 2 hour spit session.:rasp: The best I found so far is to take a oral syringe and shove all the way to the back and squeeze. :jaw: then :run: , to the sink, and commence to :rasp: . I guess I could dilute, but I don't like anything watered down. Even with liquor, when I do drink, I just add ice.
Click to expand...

Even going to the back of the throat makes my tongue numb the next morning. Yuck! It really helps to measure out your dose with a syringe and put it in a shot glass. Fill the glass up w/ water. It turns extra milky white with precipitation, then slam the shot. It doesn't taste so bad when it's crashed out of solution (suspended).
 
Take small mouthful of OJ, inject the chemical into your mouth. You'll hardly notice. Besides, I have noticed that certain research chemicals find their way to the bottom of the glass no matter how much you shake or stir.
 
Xel said:
Just buy some "00 capsules". Open it up, squirt in the liguid, pop on the top and swallow before it loses structrual integrity. No taste whatsoever. I do it with all my research chems. One capsule holds almost exactly 1ml.
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DR.D said:
Even going to the back of the throat makes my tongue numb the next morning. Yuck! It really helps to measure out your dose with a syringe and put it in a shot glass. Fill the glass up w/ water. It turns extra milky white with precipitation, then slam the shot. It doesn't taste so bad when it's crashed out of solution (suspended).
Click to expand...

jonny21 said:
Take small mouthful of OJ, inject the chemical into your mouth. You'll hardly notice. Besides, I have noticed that certain research chemicals find their way to the bottom of the glass no matter how much you shake or stir.
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Thanks for all the suggestions, but I think I'll just go with the gluton for punishment way. Just take a straw, insert, and sip right out the bottle. What does everyone think about that way? :sick: :rofl: j/k.

I really appreciate the suggestions.:thumbsup: :goodpost:
 
I am almost sold on buying this for pct, but right now, i've been trying to reverse gyno (small case - thickness behind areola) from TREN. Been running 40mgs of nolva , 1mg adex, dost. .5 e3ds for the past month.

My question about Tore is - does it aid in the REVERSAL of gyno? If not then i guess i'll try the femara/nolva combo to see if that works..

i'm desperate guys, i don't want to spend 6k on a surgery! helelelelelep!
 
That sucks man. I wish I could help, but all I know is that in theory it "should" help with the gyno. What I dont get is how you got gyno from a solo progestin based like tren? Did you have an aromatizing compound stacked in there with it?
 
Hey Dr. D. Im about to start PCT for a 17 week cycle of test/deca, with intermittent spurts of anadrol with winny tabs very tail end. And I wanted to run my ideas by you.
Ive allready begun low dose HCG (500iu every 2-4 days) to resensitize my leydigs, Im dropping the oral winny this weekend and was going to continue HCG for first week just 500iu every 2-3 days. I've used more in past, but Im concerned about over doing it and causing more feedback. (totally open to suggestions on that).
WK 1: 120mgs TOR, 25mgs ATD 500 iu HCG sunday tues and thurs.
WK2: 60mgs TOR, 25mgs ATD
WK3-4: 30mgs TOR, 50mgs ATD
WK1-??: GH 4iu's ED. alternating every two weeks between IGF and slin. Except on MGF days when I use IGF even during a slin week. (Still experimenting w/ days and dosing for MGF.)
Wks1-?: Retain 3 a day. 4 activates a day, 6 lean extremes a day. 8 FUZE caps/day. (has fenu, trib and I forget what else.)


I also have some rancid tasting long jack powder that I've had for two years cuz it tastes so bad. But I'll choke it down if you think its worth it. And I have arimidex, but I only have like a week supply or so, and figured it didnt really fit in my plan w/ the ATD.

I went from a cut 210 to a smooth 250 on this cycle, so I REALLY want to keep my gains. Any input would be appreciated. (I have other SERMS too, as well as methyl ATD, but wasnt planning to incorporate them unless you see a reason to.)
 
Xel said:
Just buy some "00 capsules". Open it up, squirt in the liguid, pop on the top and swallow before it loses structrual integrity. No taste whatsoever. I do it with all my research chems. One capsule holds almost exactly 1ml.
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beat me to it, bro! :thumbsup:

BTW - anyone know the status of torem @ IBE? usually I get a note in a couple days saying things have shipped, so I'm wondering if they're out.
 
BodyWizard said:
BTW - anyone know the status of torem @ IBE? usually I get a note in a couple days saying things have shipped, so I'm wondering if they're out.
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That would suck, cuz Im waiting for mine, and I start pct on sunday.
 
UnicronSpawn said:
Hey Dr. D. Im about to start PCT for a 17 week cycle of test/deca, with intermittent spurts of anadrol with winny tabs very tail end. And I wanted to run my ideas by you.
Ive allready begun low dose HCG (500iu every 2-4 days) to resensitize my leydigs, Im dropping the oral winny this weekend and was going to continue HCG for first week just 500iu every 2-3 days. I've used more in past, but Im concerned about over doing it and causing more feedback. (totally open to suggestions on that).
WK 1: 120mgs TOR, 25mgs ATD 500 iu HCG sunday tues and thurs.
WK2: 60mgs TOR, 25mgs ATD
WK3-4: 30mgs TOR, 50mgs ATD
WK1-??: GH 4iu's ED. alternating every two weeks between IGF and slin. Except on MGF days when I use IGF even during a slin week. (Still experimenting w/ days and dosing for MGF.)
Wks1-?: Retain 3 a day. 4 activates a day, 6 lean extremes a day. 8 FUZE caps/day. (has fenu, trib and I forget what else.)


I also have some rancid tasting long jack powder that I've had for two years cuz it tastes so bad. But I'll choke it down if you think its worth it. And I have arimidex, but I only have like a week supply or so, and figured it didnt really fit in my plan w/ the ATD.

I went from a cut 210 to a smooth 250 on this cycle, so I REALLY want to keep my gains. Any input would be appreciated. (I have other SERMS too, as well as methyl ATD, but wasnt planning to incorporate them unless you see a reason to.)
Click to expand...

Bump
 
UnicronSpawn said:
Hey Dr. D. Im about to start PCT for a 17 week cycle of test/deca, with intermittent spurts of anadrol with winny tabs very tail end. And I wanted to run my ideas by you.
Ive allready begun low dose HCG (500iu every 2-4 days) to resensitize my leydigs, Im dropping the oral winny this weekend and was going to continue HCG for first week just 500iu every 2-3 days. I've used more in past, but Im concerned about over doing it and causing more feedback. (totally open to suggestions on that).
WK 1: 120mgs TOR, 25mgs ATD 500 iu HCG sunday tues and thurs.
WK2: 60mgs TOR, 25mgs ATD
WK3-4: 30mgs TOR, 50mgs ATD
WK1-??: GH 4iu's ED. alternating every two weeks between IGF and slin. Except on MGF days when I use IGF even during a slin week. (Still experimenting w/ days and dosing for MGF.)
Wks1-?: Retain 3 a day. 4 activates a day, 6 lean extremes a day. 8 FUZE caps/day. (has fenu, trib and I forget what else.)


I also have some rancid tasting long jack powder that I've had for two years cuz it tastes so bad. But I'll choke it down if you think its worth it. And I have arimidex, but I only have like a week supply or so, and figured it didnt really fit in my plan w/ the ATD.

I went from a cut 210 to a smooth 250 on this cycle, so I REALLY want to keep my gains. Any input would be appreciated. (I have other SERMS too, as well as methyl ATD, but wasnt planning to incorporate them unless you see a reason to.)
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Yeah, that looks good. Maybe end the Retain after 3wks. You don't need the dex and I'd throw the L.J. in the trash! That stuff gave me gyno twice during PCT's. Bad, stubborn gyno requiring Permax.
 
DR.D said:
Yeah, that looks good. Maybe end the Retain after 3wks. You don't need the dex and I'd throw the L.J. in the trash! That stuff gave me gyno twice during PCT's. Bad, stubborn gyno requiring Permax.
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Cool, thanks Dr.D, I'll ditch the long jack. I wasnt sure if you were still frequenting this thread, so I also sent you an e-mail about it.
Problem now is that I dont know if my Tor is going to arrive by sunday.(IBE hasnt sent me a "shipped" email yet) I planned on running out of my winny tabs by saturday (wich Im using to keep androgen levels reasonably high until the test/deca final shots get out of my system. And starting Tor on Sunday.
Wich do you think would be better? (if Tor isnt here by then) to extend cycle another couple days until Tor arrives using other oral's? Or to start on schedule with a lesser SERM like nolva?
 
UnicronSpawn said:
... Wich do you think would be better? (if Tor isnt here by then) to extend cycle another couple days until Tor arrives using other oral's? Or to start on schedule with a lesser SERM like nolva?
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Just extend the orals another few days or week. Don't contaminate with the Nolva because I'm unsure of the relative affinity of it and it's metabolites related to the Tor. It may inhibit it's full benefit to have both in your system, and the halflife of Nolva is so long that this would be the case.
 
Well, not to contradict what you're saying DrD, but prior to my Torm arriving I was running 20 mg of Nolva for one week (on cycle still) to keep a small gyno flare up in check. I switched over to Torm the next day and everything came back within 2-3 days as per your description of Torm's effects. Purely anecdotal, but that was my experience. Skin got nicer right away so maybe the Torm has a stronger binding affinity than Nolva?
 
I took 5mg's of nolva today (still on winny) cuz aerola's were a little soft, but I'll stay away from it till Tor comes unless dire gyno treatment becomes suddenly imminent. I got a pack from IBE today expalaining that the Tor was on back order, so they sent me my MGF and will send the Tor when they can. I'll run out of winny on saturday, but I have plenty of SD, PP, E-max, M1t, mohn, MD, and the like to choose from. (wish Id saved a couple anadrols though, lol). I'll extend it till the Tor gets here just to be on the safe side.

Im still doing my 500iu EOD of HCG, but nads still seem a little undersized.:sad: Im torn though, cuz I dont want to exacerbate suppression by using too much HCG, but I cant tell if my leydigs are waking up or what. Minor nipple softness makes me wonder if that could be from the HCG, cuz Im no longer taking anything that's supposed to aromatize. But I would have expected the nuts to be huge before any type of pre gyno symptoms occured.:think:
 
bioman said:
Well, not to contradict what you're saying DrD, but prior to my Torm arriving I was running 20 mg of Nolva for one week (on cycle still) to keep a small gyno flare up in check. I switched over to Torm the next day and everything came back within 2-3 days as per your description of Torm's effects. Purely anecdotal, but that was my experience. Skin got nicer right away so maybe the Torm has a stronger binding affinity than Nolva?
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That's good to know! By all means, your anecdotal info is far superior to my speculation. I'm always skeptical before I have tested something, but your results are good to know and don't really surprise me. If 20mg of Nolva for 1 week does not inhibit or slow the response to toremifene, that would imply that tor has a superior affinity, or by virtue of the higher dose just took over since the Nolva had not been there long enough to accumulate.

Thanks for the good insights Bio! I won't be as afraid to experiment with combos of them now. :thumbsup:
 
UnicronSpawn said:
I took 5mg's of nolva today (still on winny) cuz aerola's were a little soft, but I'll stay away from it till Tor comes unless dire gyno treatment becomes suddenly imminent. I got a pack from IBE today expalaining that the Tor was on back order, so they sent me my MGF and will send the Tor when they can. I'll run out of winny on saturday, but I have plenty of SD, PP, E-max, M1t, mohn, MD, and the like to choose from. (wish Id saved a couple anadrols though, lol). I'll extend it till the Tor gets here just to be on the safe side.

Im still doing my 500iu EOD of HCG, but nads still seem a little undersized.:sad: Im torn though, cuz I dont want to exacerbate suppression by using too much HCG, but I cant tell if my leydigs are waking up or what. Minor nipple softness makes me wonder if that could be from the HCG, cuz Im no longer taking anything that's supposed to aromatize. But I would have expected the nuts to be huge before any type of pre gyno symptoms occured.:think:
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Based on Bio's report, I'd go ahead and up the Nolva to 20mg/d until the tor gets to you. I'd continue with the SD or M4OHN after the winni runs out, because they have good AI effects with less suppression that the others you mentioned. Keep the hCG at 500iu EOD, unless you start an AI too or up the Nolva to like 40mg (which sounds like it's probably OK to do for a week or less).
 
UnicronSpawn said:
That sucks man. I wish I could help, but all I know is that in theory it "should" help with the gyno. What I dont get is how you got gyno from a solo progestin based like tren? Did you have an aromatizing compound stacked in there with it?
Click to expand...

I statcked it with test le (cyp/enth 200mg). I have ran rest in high amounts before, with no signs of gyno, but it seemed as soon as I started injecting the tren ace, 3 days later symptoms started.

then i stopped, started running nolva/a-dex immediately. 5 weeks later, still gyno, starting to get hard..and it hurts! ;p

:blink:
 
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