Topic of the week: Is Overtraining BS?

muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Don’t think overtraining is real. Anyone who is ‘overtraining’ is just not prioritising recovery imo
To a degree, but this is not always true. If overtraining is not real, then you can lift for six hours every day, all out, heavy weight, etc, for weeks/months and not overtrain? No amount of prioritizing recovery will make up for this. Of course, it’s a silly extreme example, but it shows that overtraining is real, just perhaps not as common as some people think.
 
Dustin07

Dustin07

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
To a degree, but this is not always true. If overtraining is not real, then you can lift for six hours every day, all out, heavy weight, etc, for weeks/months and not overtrain? No amount of prioritizing recovery will make up for this. Of course, it’s a silly extreme example, but it shows that overtraining is real, just perhaps not as common as some people think.
we can test this easily.

Squat 3x5 twice a day every day and let me know your results in a month.

Compare it to the guy who squats a regimented training program of 2-3 x's per month. lets compare end results.
 
muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
we can test this easily.

Squat 3x5 twice a day every day and let me know your results in a month.

Compare it to the guy who squats a regimented training program of 2-3 x's per month. lets compare end results.
Clearly a logical training protocol would yield better results than trying to murder my legs twice a day for a month. And let’s not forget that I’d still have to work the rest of my body in addition to twice a day leg workouts. There’s no need to “test” this anymore than there is a need to test if eating tide pods is bad for your health.
 
Cgkone

Cgkone

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Overtraining is real.
Deload in an autoregulating program is key
 
Dustin07

Dustin07

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Clearly a logical training protocol would yield better results than trying to murder my legs twice a day for a month. And let’s not forget that I’d still have to work the rest of my body in addition to twice a day leg workouts. There’s no need to “test” this anymore than there is a need to test if eating tide pods is bad for your health.
Do you know a better way to cleanse a dirty mouth? Or to clean the gene pool, for that matter?
 
muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Do you know a better way to cleanse a dirty mouth? Or to clean the gene pool, for that matter?
Is that what they mean when they say we should "eat clean?" #DarwinAwards
 
Androflaven

Androflaven

New member
Awards
0
Sure you can over train. Here's a simple way to do it:

Deadlift for a set of 5, as much weight as you can handle, 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 95% of 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 90% of 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 85% of 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 80% of 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 75% of 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 70% of 5RM max
Deadlift for a set of 5, 65% of 5RM max

Do this workout every day until over trained. It shouldn't take long.
 

skeogh

New member
Awards
0
I think it’s real, my immune system got shot to **** when I used to cut for wrestling tournaments. 2 mat sessions a day and a weights or circuit all on restricted calories.

I don’t think you can get it from just hitting the gym though.
 
Dustin07

Dustin07

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I think it’s real, my immune system got shot to **** when I used to cut for wrestling tournaments. 2 mat sessions a day and a weights or circuit all on restricted calories.

I don’t think you can get it from just hitting the gym though.
While I agree with you in that over training may weaken immune systems, I wrestled too and I know guys generally speaking are gross and unhygienic. two mat sessions a day does mean that you're being exposed to anything the other wrestlers bring to the mat so whether or not your immune system was compromised before hand, you're definitely exposed to twice as much illness risk lol.
 

skeogh

New member
Awards
0
Yeah I don’t miss ring worm, but I found when I was going up a weight class I had a much more healthy immune system and I didn’t get nearly as much injuries.
 
Dustin07

Dustin07

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Yeah I don’t miss ring worm, but I found when I was going up a weight class I had a much more healthy immune system and I didn’t get nearly as much injuries.
same. when I wrestled, I was light. I was in the 148 class and they said I could drop down to 141. I went up instead, lol.
 
AlexPowell

AlexPowell

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Everyone has a maximum recoverable volume. This will increase as you increase sleep, calories and other recovery methods however it is not infinite.

If you train so much that you cannot provide a stimulus the next time you train then you are over trained.
For most people this is not a problem, they can just reduce the number of sets they do for a month then start working back up again.

I have a friend who's chest and triceps are permanently broken from excessive volume and he can only handle 2 weeks of overload training before he needs to deload on those muscle groups - so it's very real and can have permanent effects if you're really dumb
 
Dthcore

Dthcore

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Everyone has a maximum recoverable volume. This will increase as you increase sleep, calories and other recovery methods however it is not infinite.

If you train so much that you cannot provide a stimulus the next time you train then you are over trained.
For most people this is not a problem, they can just reduce the number of sets they do for a month then start working back up again.

I have a friend who's chest and triceps are permanently broken from excessive volume and he can only handle 2 weeks of overload training before he needs to deload on those muscle groups - so it's very real and can have permanent effects if you're really dumb
What in the fukkkk..... hooooooow!? The thought of over training blows my mind. I split routine

Monday- Back
Tuesday- Chest
Wednesday- Legs
Thursday- Shoulder/Arms

Work out for about an hour and a half.
Does that sound excessive?
 
AlexPowell

AlexPowell

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
What in the fukkkk..... hooooooow!? The thought of over training blows my mind. I split routine

Monday- Back
Tuesday- Chest
Wednesday- Legs
Thursday- Shoulder/Arms

Work out for about an hour and a half.
Does that sound excessive?
Depends on how many sets you're doing. Above 20 sets per week per body part and you're probably pushing it.
However the fact that you're even asking the question makes me believe you're fine, lol. It's hard to over train on split routines as well because who honestly does 20 sets of legs on one day?

Although, I shouldn't say that because I do know people that have permanently ****ed their chest and arms from doing stupid 20+ sets arm training once or twice a week for years on end

If you're getting stronger then add sets each week. When you get to the point where you don't feel like training / can't add weight then half the sets for a month then start adding sets again week 5. This is bodybuilding 101 but many people forget this and get stuck in the trap of doing the same thing each week or just changing exercises but keeping volume the same
 

ericos_bob

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
It depends on the intensity. I do 64 sets per muscle group each week and progress fine.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Everyone has a maximum recoverable volume. This will increase as you increase sleep, calories and other recovery methods however it is not infinite.

If you train so much that you cannot provide a stimulus the next time you train then you are over trained.
For most people this is not a problem, they can just reduce the number of sets they do for a month then start working back up again.

I have a friend who's chest and triceps are permanently broken from excessive volume and he can only handle 2 weeks of overload training before he needs to deload on those muscle groups - so it's very real and can have permanent effects if you're really dumb
It likely isn't permanent damage - everyone has a different ability to recover and adapt. Some people need very little to overtrain, some people need more than you can imagine and most people fall in between.

Plus, we often discount other parts of our life effecting this - jobs can take a huge toll even if they are not physical. Being essentially restrained in a chair all day and trying to accomplish tasks will have a huge toll. Being restrained itself is a HUGE stressor and it isn't exactly physical.

I have found that if I am training bodyparts twice a week I can only tolerate a very small amount of volume even if I pull back in the intensity a bit. Even at that, after about 4-6 weeks I start noting symptoms of over training. It isn't always that I'm not getting stronger at first...i can continue to get stronger but I start dreading workouts that I loved a couple weeks before and really drag. My workouts also take longer and longer to complete.

But most people on here claim they have seen their best results with 2x a week frequency and much higher volume than I use. Granted, some people have chemical assistance, but that aside - everyone will have a different tolerance to exercise.
 
Bintherduntht

Bintherduntht

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Yes. Overtraining, training too fast for the body to heal, is bad and counterproductive. You will lose muscle, injure yourself, and possibly get sick.

No its not BS. Its a fact
 
Bintherduntht

Bintherduntht

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Overtraining*occurs when a person exceeds their body's ability to recover from strenuous*exercise.[1]*Overtraining can be described as a point where a person may have a decrease in performance and plateauing as a result of failure to consistently perform at a certain level or training load; a load which exceeds their recovery capacity.

-Wikipedia
 
Dthcore

Dthcore

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Okay so I think I’m good to go because I definitely recover. I give myself quite a bit of time to recover from my training days.

I do around 30 sets per muscle group, excluding biceps. My rep range is usually 10-12.

And I’m literally getting stronger every season or stamina is higher.

I’m not an enhanced athlete, but I am coming back from years off and muscle memory is serving me well! More on strength than size though. 6 months in lol
 

ericos_bob

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
If you've overtrained or rather overreached. I know somebody posted up some literature separating the two by definition and the difference really only lies in the severity. I've overreached a number of times (several weeks feeling drained, and losing muscle strength,size, insatiable thirst, insomnia and/or excessive tiredness, elevated resting heart rate etc) in the past. I can now tell just based on how I feel when to back off on training intensity. Typically once every 4-5 weeks I'll need a deload and it's usually after I make unusually fast progress from one workout to the next that I'm on the brink. Prolonged muscle soreness also returns prior to OR. Subtle cues in the way you feel which you can familiarize yourself with over time are to be listened to because lets face it programming itself does not encompass changes in our lives outside the gym which can make it difficult to gauge our recovery ability theoretically.
 

irone93

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
I believe it is. Best results I ever had was training the same muscle everyday for three months
 
muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I believe it is. Best results I ever had was training the same muscle everyday for three months
So now work your whole body with double the volume every day, twice a day and tell me you don’t get overtrained. You may say that overtraining isn’t common, or as prevalent as people say, but surely it exists at some extreme level. Very rare doesn’t make it a myth or BS.
 
AlexPowell

AlexPowell

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
It likely isn't permanent damage - everyone has a different ability to recover and adapt. Some people need very little to overtrain, some people need more than you can imagine and most people fall in between.

Plus, we often discount other parts of our life effecting this - jobs can take a huge toll even if they are not physical. Being essentially restrained in a chair all day and trying to accomplish tasks will have a huge toll. Being restrained itself is a HUGE stressor and it isn't exactly physical.

I have found that if I am training bodyparts twice a week I can only tolerate a very small amount of volume even if I pull back in the intensity a bit. Even at that, after about 4-6 weeks I start noting symptoms of over training. It isn't always that I'm not getting stronger at first...i can continue to get stronger but I start dreading workouts that I loved a couple weeks before and really drag. My workouts also take longer and longer to complete.

But most people on here claim they have seen their best results with 2x a week frequency and much higher volume than I use. Granted, some people have chemical assistance, but that aside - everyone will have a different tolerance to exercise.
Yes, Exactly.
The main thing to remember is that everyone's max recoverable volume will be different, however it definitely exists and exceeding it for several months on end will cause long term damage. Most people don't go anywhere near that however I do see people in the gym riding that line a bit too much, especially on arms work!
 
Bintherduntht

Bintherduntht

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
So now work your whole body with double the volume every day, twice a day and tell me you don’t get overtrained. You may say that overtraining isn’t common, or as prevalent as people say, but surely it exists at some extreme level. Very rare doesn’t make it a myth or BS.
He was joking right?
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yes, Exactly.
The main thing to remember is that everyone's max recoverable volume will be different, however it definitely exists and exceeding it for several months on end will cause long term damage. Most people don't go anywhere near that however I do see people in the gym riding that line a bit too much, especially on arms work!
Yeah...i actually think it is more common. Than a lot of people admit. How many people go to the gym 6 days a week for years and see very little improvement at all? Lots.

But my view could be skewed because I, personally, don't seem to tolerate much volume/frequency. It's like putting a pale white guy in the sun for 5 hours (me) and a dark skinned African for the same time and then asking them if sunburn is real or a myth. The African may say - sure, if you are put for 10 hours a day and the pale guy will say - yeah, after about 1 hour!!! Look at these blisters!

But I also think many people train with much lower intensities than they realize when they are doing 10 sets per bodypart. If you are not working hard, you will have to have more volume to compensate. Not saying that everyone who tolerates 10-20 sets 2x per week and is natural isn't working hard, but I personally can't even fathom working at a high level for that long and believe it is rare.


No idea. My internet sarcasm detector has been broken for many moons.
What kind of an idiot can't detect sarcasm on the internet?
 
AlexPowell

AlexPowell

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Yeah...i actually think it is more common. Than a lot of people admit. How many people go to the gym 6 days a week for years and see very little improvement at all? Lots.

But my view could be skewed because I, personally, don't seem to tolerate much volume/frequency. It's like putting a pale white guy in the sun for 5 hours (me) and a dark skinned African for the same time and then asking them if sunburn is real or a myth. The African may say - sure, if you are put for 10 hours a day and the pale guy will say - yeah, after about 1 hour!!! Look at these blisters!

But I also think many people train with much lower intensities than they realize when they are doing 10 sets per bodypart. If you are not working hard, you will have to have more volume to compensate. Not saying that everyone who tolerates 10-20 sets 2x per week and is natural isn't working hard, but I personally can't even fathom working at a high level for that long and believe it is rare.




What kind of an idiot can't detect sarcasm on the internet?

Yes. When we discuss volume what we are actually talking about is time under tension near the point of failure at a certain percentage of max. So someone that does rest pause will need less sets than someone who does pump training but the Time Under Tension at failure is actually the same
 

jrock645

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
I’m new here, but can’t imagine how anyone could question if overtraining is real or just an excuse.
 

Lionheart1776

Member
Awards
0
In my opinion the cns will become overtrained before the body, if enough rest and nutrient intake is present i don't feel the body would become overtrained but so many variables have to be taken into consideration so its possible.
That just happened to me. I hit full body every other day HARD 12 sets per body part, many until failure. I'm on cycle (my first one) so I figured I'd be a ****ing ******* not to train as hard as I possibley can. Been eating like a freshly woken bear too, easily 1.5 G protein\LB and 1000+ surplus. Gains have been great but all of a sudden my free weight training started to decline rapidly whilst my machine work continued to progress to some extent.I skipped a work-out and did a 66% volume deload and recovered back to baseline. So yes the CNS can get overtrained, but seems to be more a problem for us gung-ho newbies who go off half cocked.
 
Chamaan

Chamaan

New member
Awards
0
Overtraining is real, in particular for natties.

But there is more than "training" to "over"training. Sleep quality and quantity, and stress, are crucial and play a huge role in recovery. I believe a natty trainee with optimal sleep and and minimal stress would still reach overtraining, but with a lot more difficulty compared to a typical worn-out corporate employee.
 
BEAST73

BEAST73

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I have been doing Over Training for the last 2 years now,and it’s very effective!
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I have been doing Over Training for the last 2 years now,and it’s very effective!
Haha, by definition, if it is effective you are not overtraining.
 

PHOTOSnFIBERS

Member
Awards
0
I think there is a point where you can destroy muscle faster than your body rebuilds it,

There were times between 12 hour shifts and workouts daily that i was genuinely in pain at work doing my job.

I honestly dont think I lost muscle though, I kept building it. I think you can eat enough for your body to take care of you.

But there are a lot more factors than that.

Train to much you may be in pain, may have no energy, may be stressed.
I have been diving into this pretty hard lately. I think its possible to overtrain but not with hypertrophy. I think people misidentify fatigue of the nervous system with muscle fiber overtraining.

The protein synthesis window lasts 1 to 2 days (for natties) depending on the muscle trained, bigger muscles like legs are closer to 2 days, abs would be closer to 1.

The thing about hypertrophy is its really hard to overtrain it, one is more likely to burn out their CNS before that. As long as hormones are ok and as long as nutrition is good, we are able to repair a massive amount of volume.

Its the nerves that are delicate. Once the nervous system is worn out, its really hard to offer any kind of effective stimulus for growth.
 

PHOTOSnFIBERS

Member
Awards
0
Overtraining is real, in particular for natties.

But there is more than "training" to "over"training. Sleep quality and quantity, and stress, are crucial and play a huge role in recovery. I believe a natty trainee with optimal sleep and and minimal stress would still reach overtraining, but with a lot more difficulty compared to a typical worn-out corporate employee.
I think theres a big interpretation issue thats at fault. For the longest time id hear power lifters talk about "recovery" but they never got specific. I always thought they meant muscle recovery.

Turns out most who use the term mean CNS recovery. Once i understood the difference everthing made a lot more sense.

Now its a simple balancing act, hammer my nervous system till it needs a deload. Then train low intensity and high volume (hypertrophy based) for a couple weeks till my nerves are refreshed. Rinse n repeat.
 

ericos_bob

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I have been doing Over Training for the last 2 years now,and it’s very effective!
Wow, few people aim to downsize by overtraining, and you still have a decent build now. You must have been Ronnie Coleman size two years ago.
 
UCSMiami

UCSMiami

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I think it is more of a case of non-recovery is what most folks consider overtraining. Body is so wound up from a training session that insomnia is a result. That happened to me a few years ago when I was working out twice per day.
 
AmateurStrong

AmateurStrong

Member
Awards
0
Some of the comments in here are amazing, here are my two cents. I will not get drawn into a large debate.

Fatigue is real and therefore overtraining is real. Every person dissipates fatigue differently.

When we workout we generate fatigue, between workouts we recover from that fatigue. There is both CNS Fatigue and Muscular Fatigue. Both will impact the body differently.

In general fatigue becomes a problem when it interferes with general fitness ("general fitness" being the fitness tasks you are wishing to perform). For example, lets say you Bench 405 and you do a bunch of workouts you are carrying extra fatigue and therefore only bench 380. This is a simplistic version of overtraining. Generally, overtraining is when you have numerous workouts spanning a period of time that generate more fatigue than the body can dissipate. As a result performance decreases.
 
rgurleyjr

rgurleyjr

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
I'm a little late and haven't read all of the responses.

Yes, OT is real as I dealt with it really really badly. From the time I went from too much training (overreaching) to noticeable recovery from my overtraining symptoms, was almost 18 months.

I was a runner, ran too too much, too many races, etc. I literally ran until my quads were sore for over a year straight, even after being forced to stop running. My sleep was the worse ever, appetite screwed up, apathy, depression, all kinds of stuff l. It was a dark time, I couldn't train at all, sleep, nothing helped. I went to all kinds of doctors looking for what was going on and the only thing that helped was time and rest.

I know I'm susceptible to it again as I have the drive to push beyond my limits. Also lyle McDonald has an awesome 9 part series on OT and overreaching.
 

jrock645

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
I'm a little late and haven't read all of the responses.

Yes, OT is real as I dealt with it really really badly. From the time I went from too much training (overreaching) to noticeable recovery from my overtraining symptoms, was almost 18 months.

I was a runner, ran too too much, too many races, etc. I literally ran until my quads were sore for over a year straight, even after being forced to stop running. My sleep was the worse ever, appetite screwed up, apathy, depression, all kinds of stuff l. It was a dark time, I couldn't train at all, sleep, nothing helped. I went to all kinds of doctors looking for what was going on and the only thing that helped was time and rest.

I know I'm susceptible to it again as I have the drive to push beyond my limits. Also lyle McDonald has an awesome 9 part series on OT and overreaching.
How many miles a week were you running?
 
rgurleyjr

rgurleyjr

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
At the most, about 45 a week. What all started it was high miles already,but then I ran Thanksgiving 5k at 100%. Stupid me tried to race a half marathon 3 days later, and crashed at mile 4. My legs were still sore from the 5k and I don't know what I was thinking when I raced a half so soon.

Worse yet was after I sort of recovered from the soreness and fatigue that lingered from that week of races, I continued to increase mileage and tempo runs instead of cutting back. I desperately needed time off and not more training. That was 7 years ago but man was I stupid.
 

jrock645

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
At the most, about 45 a week. What all started it was high miles already,but then I ran Thanksgiving 5k at 100%. Stupid me tried to race a half marathon 3 days later, and crashed at mile 4. My legs were still sore from the 5k and I don't know what I was thinking when I raced a half so soon.

Worse yet was after I sort of recovered from the soreness and fatigue that lingered from that week of races, I continued to increase mileage and tempo runs instead of cutting back. I desperately needed time off and not more training. That was 7 years ago but man was I stupid.
Yeah I was a distance runner in HS but could never sustain the kind of mileage my teammates did. 32 miles a week was the sweet spot for me, including my weekly long run of 10+. I got up around 40 one week and could barely function. Meanwhile, I had teammates running 55 miles a week. And some of the marathon runners do 140+. I can’t even comprehend that.
 

Borashi

Member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Overtraining is a concept of bro science. If you feed your body what it needs and focus on rest, recovery, anything can be achieved. I've been training 3 hours full body 3-4x a week switching up rep schemes every 8-12 weeks, and I've maintained my gains since beginning lifting after a long layoff. Just got tested at 4.8 percent body fat weighing in at 184.5 , lbm sitting at 175. My point is this its more in your mind than body. Willpower is everything.
 

Mr Giggles

New member
Awards
0
Overtraining is a concept of bro science. If you feed your body what it needs and focus on rest, recovery, anything can be achieved. I've been training 3 hours full body 3-4x a week switching up rep schemes every 8-12 weeks, and I've maintained my gains since beginning lifting after a long layoff. Just got tested at 4.8 percent body fat weighing in at 184.5 , lbm sitting at 175. My point is this its more in your mind than body. Willpower is everything.
4.8% . You Andrea muntzer
 

Borashi

Member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
That's what I came in at. It is what it is. I'm still not happy with my physique, probably never will be.
 

Top