Topic of the week: Is Overtraining BS?

BeastFitness

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Yes, when I was fighting professionally. Heavy training volume+cutting weight got me there, but it took about 8 weeks before it really happened.
Care to elaborate on what exactly happened?

I have only seen/heard about true overtraining from others and it seems that in general, a full 2-3 weeks was needed to recovery physically and slightly longer mentally but again, all anecdotal
 
HIT4ME

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Data is the result of science. You should go back to elementary science to learn the scientific method again. Overtraining came from eastern Bloc training and none of it applies to Mentzer's ideas. Do you even know who Prilepin, Issurin, and Bompa are?

Mentzer's idea on a set to failure and beyond becomes a muscular issue and not a CNS issue. You can tell you're not familiar with the CNS and its role in recovery and efficiency. This method taxes the muscles and connective tissue far before CNS fatigue becomes an issue unless you are horribly out of shape. Hmmm....that sounds like work capacity, doesn't it?

You point to X number of sets. Sets of what lift? Is their technique optimal? What's their level of conditioning? All these things are not accounted for in your philosophy.

I don't get how work capacity seems to fly over your head as it is completely correlated with recovery. This likely comes from your lack of formal education and understanding of the strength curve. You're even confused about the starting point; the cylinder begins at max capacity and not empty and, yes, the size of the "plug" does also increase. This is why it takes a longer deload period for the more advanced athlete to peak compared to a novice athlete. They know how to tax their CNS efficiently during the overreaching periods and start to taper volume as much as a month out from a competition. Conversely, a novice strength athlete may only need 5-7 days because they're not as efficient and need the skill practice.

Recovery on a small scale comes from improved enzymatic efficient at dissipating waste products intra-set. Lactic acid plays no role whatsoever as its dissipated within minutes (I really hope you don't think soreness is a result of lactic acid). On a large scale, it is the ability to replenish glycogen stores, bring the HR close resting levels, and keep nitrogen retention on the positive side.

You really, really, really need to stop looking at this as a BB'ing concept as it isn't. It's a strength concept.
Great post here. I am familiar with those three - but have not read nearly as much detail as I would like. I am not claiming to be formally educated and I appreciate your sharing your knowledge. It was always my understanding that doing intense sets at higher % of 1RM were more draining on the CNS than muscles. I.e. - doing singles on dead lifts can take a huge toll on the CNS, right? I've always felt this played a roll in recovery. In other words, if I'm doing sets of 12 reps to failure, this will be slightly easier on the CNS (or maybe a lot easier) than doing sets of 4 to failure - but the sets of 12 may stimulate the muscle more. This to me, was a simpler explanation of what people have observed in "bodybuilding vs. powerlifting" where powerlifters train the movement and involve their CNS more, etc. - and is in alignment with what you are saying about power lifters being more likely to overtrain.

Also - I don't know why I said lactic acid...I was typing fast and doing something else and probably wasn't thinking. Wasn't the best example by a long shot.
 

kisaj

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Does anyone feel as if they've truly overtrained before?
Yes, similar to Rodja, except I was fighting amateur. Also when I was training for an endurance event. It is primarily the diet changes that had the most impact, IMO.
 
HIT4ME

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how can data be the result of science??you use data to prove science and to accept or decline a theory or hypothesis.. data is just random numbers if not used correctly.. and i believe that if a study is not dubbel blind than it is a waste of time
I don't disagree with Rodja's use of this - my point was just that all data isn't necessarily good and just because something leads to data doesn't make it science. But, science does create data - which has to be evaluated. Which I think is where you're coming from too.
 
Rodja

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Care to elaborate on what exactly happened?

I have only seen/heard about true overtraining from others and it seems that in general, a full 2-3 weeks was needed to recovery physically and slightly longer mentally but again, all anecdotal
About 14 days out, I started struggling to get to sleep and my RHR was around 65 (at the time, I was usually from 44-48). I also noticed that my reflexes were slower and my shots had less pop in them. At 10 days out, I started to lose my appetite. This was kinda nice at the time since it would make the cut easier, but it was another sign. All of fight week, I was completely lethargic. My endurance was declining and I would almost space out for a moment. This was also a tough week at school and just attributed it to being stressed from that and less calories. The weirdest part was the cut was incredibly easy and I was quite lively on this day (I had just started dated this chick I was chasing for months). By the time fight day came, I was out of it again. I was getting winded during the normal warmup drills that I should've been able to do for days. When I knew I was out of it was when I didn't get into my entrance song even with the new GF in the crowd.

I took the entire next week off from doing anything. Even the subsequent week, I didn't have a desire to get back on the mat. I did go back to lifting this week, however. It was I think another month before I felt like I was back to 90% of my capacity.
 
Rodja

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Great post here. I am familiar with those three - but have not read nearly as much detail as I would like. I am not claiming to be formally educated and I appreciate your sharing your knowledge. It was always my understanding that doing intense sets at higher % of 1RM were more draining on the CNS than muscles. I.e. - doing singles on dead lifts can take a huge toll on the CNS, right? I've always felt this played a roll in recovery. In other words, if I'm doing sets of 12 reps to failure, this will be slightly easier on the CNS (or maybe a lot easier) than doing sets of 4 to failure - but the sets of 12 may stimulate the muscle more. This to me, was a simpler explanation of what people have observed in "bodybuilding vs. powerlifting" where powerlifters train the movement and involve their CNS more, etc. - and is in alignment with what you are saying about power lifters being more likely to overtrain.

Also - I don't know why I said lactic acid...I was typing fast and doing something else and probably wasn't thinking. Wasn't the best example by a long shot.
Yes, that is it. What's your point?
 
HIT4ME

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Does anyone feel as if they've truly overtrained before?
I have. And I think it was actually a combination of many different things - not just working out. Lack of sleep, nutrition, high-stress environments, etc. can all contribute and are often over-looked.
 
HIT4ME

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Yes, that is it. What's your point?
I don't really have a point as much as trying to clarify things and learn. But you state that Mentzer's approach is more of a muscle issue and less of a CNS issue, where Mentzer was often advocating relatively heavy training. He did seem to lean toward middle-rep ranges (6-12 reps for most things) and was geared more toward bodybuilding, so there is that distinction, but I think he also did this to help avoid CNS issues with such heavy training (whether he knew why or not - he was basing his recommendations on the results he saw with his clients).

I'm just confused because you stood hard fast to the idea that overtraining was CNS, which I agree with, but then say training to failure is more of a muscle issue so I'm trying to understand better given the fact that heavy training usually drains the CNS more in my reading. i.e. - I'm just trying to learn.
 
Rodja

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I don't really have a point as much as trying to clarify things and learn. But you state that Mentzer's approach is more of a muscle issue and less of a CNS issue, where Mentzer was often advocating relatively heavy training. He did seem to lean toward middle-rep ranges (6-12 reps for most things) and was geared more toward bodybuilding, so there is that distinction, but I think he also did this to help avoid CNS issues with such heavy training (whether he knew why or not - he was basing his recommendations on the results he saw with his clients).

I'm just confused because you stood hard fast to the idea that overtraining was CNS, which I agree with, but then say training to failure is more of a muscle issue so I'm trying to understand better given the fact that heavy training usually drains the CNS more in my reading. i.e. - I'm just trying to learn.
Sets of 6-12, whether or not to failure, are not going to tax the CNS like singles or double. The connective tissue is likely going to get damaged in the higher rep set more so than CNS fatigue.
 
jaces

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Data is collected as the result of the implementation of the scientific method. Whether or not the data accepts or rejects the null hypothesis depends on said hypothesis. How exactly do you have a DOUBLE blind study in the field of strength training? It's not a nutrition protocol or a supplement/drug study.
split the group into a placebo and whatever you want to test...
 
HIT4ME

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Rodja

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split the group into a placebo and whatever you want to test...
When there's a placebo developed for exercise, let me know. Good lord, are you really this unfamiliar with how to develop a study? Don't answer...we already know.
 
jaces

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When there's a placebo developed for exercise, let me know. Good lord, are you really this unfamiliar with how to develop a study? Don't answer...we already know.
you should have been n woman cause you complain more than my girlfriend.. or isit your peroid time??dont answer we already know
 
Rodja

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you should have been n woman cause you complain more than my girlfriend.. or isit your peroid time??dont answer we already know
Calling out your stupidity is complaining to you? I guess half the board is a bunch of woman because you've been called out by way more than just me. You would think the person claiming to be studying pharmacy would know not only how to spell double blind properly, but you'd also know what it even means.
 
datsthat

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I have not read this entire thread yet, but roughly 15 years ago I was diagnosed with rhabdomyolysis. My urine was color of Coke mixed with red wine. My muscles especially my around chest and thighs felt shredded like someone went to town on my muscles using a razor blade. My wife made me goto local walkin clinic. Next morning doc at clinic called me and said "get yourself to nearest ER NOW". Hospital kept me there until my levels were somewhat back to normal which was 3 long days. I don't remember any of my numbers but doctor at hospital said he has never seen numbers like mine and that my kidney or liver could fail. I was in pain killer drip the entire time. If I remember correctly all they did was give me iv but they put a tourniquet like device to compress the iv bag so more fluids go into me at faster rate. I had to pee every 15-30mins for 3 long ass days. I also got a shot in my tummy every night but can't remember what it was. If anybody is interested I can try to find out more info regarding my bout with rhabdomyolysis. I wasn't working out hardcore. I was actually getting back into gym when it happened. Maybe I was so out of shape but I workout as if I was a seasoned vet??????
 
Parad0x

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I have not read this entire thread yet, but roughly 15 years ago I was diagnosed with rhabdomyolysis. My urine was color of Coke mixed with red wine. My muscles especially my around chest and thighs felt shredded like someone went to town on my muscles using a razor blade. My wife made me goto local walkin clinic. Next morning doc at clinic called me and said "get yourself to nearest ER NOW". Hospital kept me there until my levels were somewhat back to normal which was 3 long days. I don't remember any of my numbers but doctor at hospital said he has never seen numbers like mine and that my kidney or liver could fail. I was in pain killer drip the entire time. If I remember correctly all they did was give me iv but they put a tourniquet like device to compress the iv bag so more fluids go into me at faster rate. I had to pee every 15-30mins for 3 long ass days. I also got a shot in my tummy every night but can't remember what it was. If anybody is interested I can try to find out more info regarding my bout with rhabdomyolysis. I wasn't working out hardcore. I was actually getting back into gym when it happened. Maybe I was so out of shape but I workout as if I was a seasoned vet??????
Jesus that sucks man. Rhabdo is like hyper-catabolism. Your body eats the muscle and dumps proteins into your blood stream. Deadly sh*t dude. You're lucky.
 
datsthat

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Jesus that sucks man. Rhabdo is like hyper-catabolism. Your body eats the muscle and dumps proteins into your blood stream. Deadly sh*t dude. You're lucky.
Yea, I've used up nearly all 9 lives and an extremely lucky person. No wonder my urine was so dark. I wonder if osta would prevented catabolism (I am joking)
 
Parad0x

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Yea, I've used up nearly all 9 lives and an extremely lucky person. No wonder my urine was so dark. I wonder if osta would prevented catabolism (I am joking)
I pissed blood once. Super dehydrated, not going into it (before getting into fitness). Drank a full liter of water in less than 2 minutes and turned my piss the color of sh*t. Bottom line, stay hydrated bros lol
 
jaces

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Calling out your stupidity is complaining to you? I guess half the board is a bunch of woman because you've been called out by way more than just me. You would think the person claiming to be studying pharmacy would know not only how to spell double blind properly, but you'd also know what it even means.
dam,looks like i have a follower.. or stalker..
 
jaces

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dont know , dont live there, but man you know a lot about me, did we go on a date sometime??
 
Rodja

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dont know , dont live there, but man you know a lot about me, did we go on a date sometime??
You should pay attention to the garbage you post. It's in this damn thread or did you forget espousing how tough you are? You know...with the shooting people and whatnot.
 
Otheridstaken

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dont know , dont live there, but man you know a lot about me, did we go on a date sometime??
You must go on a lot of dates with men if you need to ask that question.

You flood the board with your stupidity so often it's not hard knowing you a little.
 
jaces

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i just dont take your bull****.. you only accept data en theories that support your own.. you act as if you have achieved something great but your just a pathetic douche infront of a screen acting asif he has balls
 
Rodja

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i just dont take your bull****.. you only accept data en theories that support your own.. you act as if you have achieved something great but your just a pathetic douche infront of a screen acting asif he has balls
Too bad you can't just shoot me, eh.

Internet logic 101: when you can't refute other people's points just insult him. Here, try this site: http://www.insultgenerator.org/. At least it'll be coherent and without the awful grammar you have.
 
Captn_the

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Most people never reach overtraining. It's like drinking; most people never drink quite enough to constitute an ER visit, just like most people never train so much that they reach overtraining. Most people gove themselves a break when the overbearing fatigue sets in. That's like puking after copious alcohol consumption. It's a low stage that won't really harm you. Now once you overtrain, pushing the limits further can lead to rhabdo which no one wants to experience and can be fatal. As stated previously, though, most never reach this point.
This is spot on ^^^^^
 
Justlooking5

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I believe it's real. Show me how more calories can heal joints or restore the CNS. Plus, who really believes that the body can simply process that much food without additional stress? Even on gear you can overtrain.
 

gynopuff

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I believe it's real. Show me how more calories can heal joints or restore the CNS. Plus, who really believes that the body can simply process that much food without additional stress? Even on gear you can overtrain.
This is true when I was on gear I started working out everyday and then my strength and size haulted. I also got sick and couldn't recover because i was OVERTRAINING
 

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overtraining is real, but is also usefull. when peaking for a powerlifting meet you take advantage of it, because after you have overtrained and you taper off the volume your body supercompensates and your strength goes up while your fatigue goes down (at the end of the taper)
 
Parad0x

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overtraining is real, but is also usefull. when peaking for a powerlifting meet you take advantage of it, because after you have overtrained and you taper off the volume your body supercompensates and your strength goes up while your fatigue goes down (at the end of the taper)
What you're talking about is Overreaching, not overtraining. Overtraining is debilitating and not something you can just taper off from. If you taper from overreaching your body rebounds with added strength and would help accomplish this, but overtraining is damning.
 

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What you're talking about is Overreaching, not overtraining. Overtraining is debilitating and not something you can just taper off from. If you taper from overreaching your body rebounds with added strength and would help accomplish this, but overtraining is damning.
Hmmm I guess I never really thought about the difference in the two, you're right though.
Honestly though, i feel like overtraining is real, but you have to try to achieve it.

Like debilitating overtraining.
Say doing 25 singles at 90% of your max for deadlifts every day for a month
 
Parad0x

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Hmmm I guess I never really thought about the difference in the two, you're right though.
Honestly though, i feel like overtraining is real, but you have to try to achieve it.

Like debilitating overtraining.
Say doing 25 singles at 90% of your max for deadlifts every day for a month
Nah, overtraining is real all right, but most people surrender to the symptom before they reach the PNR. The lethargy is what really hits home for most. If you are constantly hitting the weights as hard as possible daily for months on end non-stop, you're gonna find out pretty quickly what overtraining is, but most people mentally can't take it that far and will hit the taper point before they go over the edge and then rebound like anxiety after Xanex. Lifting is like a nascar race. You're not going to try and get on that track in a ford focus with a stock engine and gun it like mad, right? You'll blow your engine and then you're f*cked. No, instead, you trick it out and keep yourself just below the danger level and remind yourself to hit a pit stop before you hit empty. It's all about NOT killing yourself.
 

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Why do people like rich piana think it's bull**** if the general consensus is that it's real(although I am aware rich piana is a dumb ****tard"
 

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Well no to an extent theres not such a thing as overtraining in a sense because if you train a body part to the point of exhaustion you physically wont be able to train it anymore...
Although i believe that if you have trained a body part one day and hit it really hard on that day , then have a days break and if its still sore from training then you shouldent train that muscle group until it isnt painful because it hasnt fully recovered yet ,
 
Parad0x

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Well no to an extent theres not such a thing as overtraining in a sense because if you train a body part to the point of exhaustion you physically wont be able to train it anymore...
Although i believe that if you have trained a body part one day and hit it really hard on that day , then have a days break and if its still sore from training then you shouldent train that muscle group until it isnt painful because it hasnt fully recovered yet ,
Overtraining has been scientifically proven to exist, period. Just because a muscle is sore doesn't mean that it hasn't recovered, and it most certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't train it. Also, training a muscle to sheer exhaustion isn't a finite point for anyone. I can train a muscle to complete exhaustion and the very next day come in and work it again. I just worked my arms so hard yesterday that I couldn't even pick up my kids, but I could do it all again today. Should I? No. Overtraining takes awhile to come about, but it most certainly exists.
 

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With overtraining Im talking about in a single gym session sorry i should of said that bro
, because as you say you hit your arms so hard yesterday that you couldent even pick up your kids (awch)
And thats you had sufficient lifting to the point your arms lifted plenty far more than it wants to because you cant do such a simple thing as lifting your kid ,
Are you overtrained ? No , because your body didnt allow you to go to the point of Not even able to function again
Yes your completely right in that fact overtraining takes a while to come about look at brick layer and guys in heavy lifting trades they can lift and lift and lift , 30 years down the line they cant so much as bend over without feeling like there backs about to fall apart
I have obviously mistaken the question for in the gym in the one session , my bad ,
Well it depends how you feel about your muscles being sore ,
Thats exactly why i put """i believe """ before i wrote about waiting until the muscles aches and pains had gone
everybody has different opinions just because you say if a muscle is sore doesnt mean you shouldent train it , doesnt mean you should either
everyone trains differently and i have found in my experiences plenty rest on muscles works better for me
All the best
 
Parad0x

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With overtraining Im talking about in a single gym session sorry i should of said that bro
, because as you say you hit your arms so hard yesterday that you couldent even pick up your kids (awch)
And thats you had sufficient lifting to the point your arms lifted plenty far more than it wants to because you cant do such a simple thing as lifting your kid ,
Are you overtrained ? No , because your body didnt allow you to go to the point of Not even able to function again
Yes your completely right in that fact overtraining takes a while to come about look at brick layer and guys in heavy lifting trades they can lift and lift and lift , 30 years down the line they cant so much as bend over without feeling like there backs about to fall apart
I have obviously mistaken the question for in the gym in the one session , my bad ,
Well it depends how you feel about your muscles being sore ,
Thats exactly why i put """i believe """ before i wrote about waiting until the muscles aches and pains had gone
everybody has different opinions just because you say if a muscle is sore doesnt mean you shouldent train it , doesnt mean you should either
everyone trains differently and i have found in my experiences plenty rest on muscles works better for me
All the best
I'll most definitely agree that it is at least virtually impossible to overtrain in a single session. Unless, of course, it lasts like 12 hours. In which case, you could quite easily be screwed.
 

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Definitely real to an extent, but the general idea of what constitutes overtraining is bunk, but the boundaries seem to be expanding almost daily within the past 5 years, it seems.
 
krome606

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How can people do 4-5 thousand pushups a day plus in the same session do curls and squats and be huge. In prison a group of guys did the same routine 6 days a week. Took Sunday off. I didn't get how they weren't over training.
 
Cgkone

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If your talking California or a state that has no weights now, then no I don't believe body weight exercises 6 days a week is over training.
I've been to several prisons in CA. from 1998-2010.
When there was weights about 10% of people worked out correctly. And I'd sayhuge is relative.
 
Cgkone

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After the weight were gone body weight was all that was left and we went from hulkish to spidermanish.
I consider over 250 big.
275 huge.
 
Cgkone

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My point is your not gunna put up real weight 6 days a week, make continual gains in size and Strength, and stay injury free.
But nothing but free time to rest and eat in prison makes recovery easier
 
DocOptimzed

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Yep I think it happens in super rare cases only like military training or something
 
Joe12

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Over training is BS according to CT Fletcher, hahaha.

For real, in my personal experience... I have worked out back-to-back for extended periods with a single day break. All it does is run me down, but I think a lot of people use the over training blanket to be lazy.
 
bigmacdaddy18

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BS.
If your "over-trained" your not listening to your body or being smart. If you think doing 25 sets per bodypart makes sense, then your not overtraining, your under-thinking.
 

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You think its real or something that can fixed simply by calories?
overtraining is BS! one does not over train if he has xy and z covered. if youre resting enough and eating enough proper nutrients you simply cannot over train. people under estimate the human bodies capabilities. the body is an amazing thing and given the proper nutrients and recovery your body will adapt to anything. if one isn't eating enough of resting enough or being hydrated enough then you aren't over training you're under eating or under sleeping for lack of a better word lol. i am currently going on three weeks of training legs EVERYDAY!! due to breaking my hand, but i sleep well, i eat plenty of efficient nutrients and my body has adapted to this style of training. i know I'm not wasting my time because I'm making strength gains and my legs are growing! so if you think you're OT you don't have xy and z covered
 
HIT4ME

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overtraining is BS! one does not over train if he has xy and z covered. if youre resting enough and eating enough proper nutrients you simply cannot over train. people under estimate the human bodies capabilities. the body is an amazing thing and given the proper nutrients and recovery your body will adapt to anything. if one isn't eating enough of resting enough or being hydrated enough then you aren't over training you're under eating or under sleeping for lack of a better word lol. i am currently going on three weeks of training legs EVERYDAY!! due to breaking my hand, but i sleep well, i eat plenty of efficient nutrients and my body has adapted to this style of training. i know I'm not wasting my time because I'm making strength gains and my legs are growing! so if you think you're OT you don't have xy and z covered
Ummm...so you are saying over training does exist, by your definition.

May I ask what an "efficient nutrient" is?
 
Jiigzz

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People who think OTS isn't real, do not know what OTS is.
 

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