Tongkat and Prolactin

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ProgressiveOvrload

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I am new here so I apologize for appearing “needy” and posting a thread immediately upon singing up. My good friend is an active member here and we were discussing this topic when he suggested I post it here.

Basically I’m a 31 y/o male and started using Tongkat Ali to raise natural test (I have no issues with libido or muscle building, just wanted a boost).

In three short weeks I felt a pretty drastic increase in libido, as well increased strength / intensity in the gym. I then ordered a blood test to see how my levels were trending (results attached).

A couple days after receiving my results I got itchy nipples. A few days later I noticed a small (pea sized) lump had now formed behind my right nipple. Size my E2 is in check, I attribute this to elevated prolactin. It should also be noted my prolactin is 23, which I don’t think is incredibly high, especially given that I had my blood test done at 6AM, which is when prolactin is naturally at its highest. I have since halted Tongkat and order P5P, which is arriving today.

I still had a high libido while the lump formed, which I find interesting.

Has anyone experienced anything similar and/or have recommendations.

Thank you so much,
Alex
 

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Drakee

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Anecdotally I've seen a lot of people say they developed gyno from tongkat. It can definitely raise prolactin in certain individuals.
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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Bummer. It was definitely working too. Hopefully P5P will get me in a good spot to try it again this summer.
 
sns8778

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What type of Tongkat were you using? Any other supplements?
 

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What type of Tongkat were you using? Any other supplements?
Nootropics Depot 200mg 2%
10,000 IU D3
6MG Boron
400 MG Magnesium
50 MG zinc Chelate
2100 MG Nature life labs Ashwagandha
 
sns8778

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Anecdotally I've seen a lot of people say they developed gyno from tongkat. It can definitely raise prolactin in certain individuals.
I've seen reports of that with certain brands but I think that its important to consider that there's everything from non-standardized basic herb powder, different ratio extracts, then % extracts of certain constituents, and imo a lot of brands claiming to use certain extracts that aren't what they're supposed to be.

I know that in all the years that we've sold M-Test and Optimize-T, I've never has a single email from anyone saying that either of them contributed to increasing estrogen or prolactin - but in context, we're extremely picky and specific about the raw materials we use.
 
sns8778

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Nootropics Depot 200mg 2%
10,000 IU D3
6MG Boron
400 MG Magnesium
50 MG zinc Chelate
2100 MG Nature life labs Ashwagandha
The reason that I asked is that with Tongkat Ali, there are a lot of different types of Tongkat Ali - high dosed non-standardized powder, ratio extracts, extracts for specific constituents, etc. And there are a lot of Tongkat products on the market that aren't what they claim to be. I never speak negatively about any particular brands, just stating facts on the raw materials themselves.

I know on our end, we have sold M-Test for probably 9 or 10 years with Tongkat Ali in it, Optimize-T for a couple years and specifically use the branded Bionutricia Tongkat Ali in it, Test Fix under Muscle Addiction with a ratio extract, and then have Tongkat Ali XT which is the Bionutricia min. 2% extract in it and I've never had a single email about any of these increasing estrogen or prolactin. But we are very specific with the raw materials that we use in them.

^^^ Keep in mind that if I thought they did increase estrogen or prolactin, I'd have every reason to say so because Inhibit-E (estrogen control) and Inhibit-P (prolactin control) are big sellers for us so I'd have every incentive to say they did and suggest people buying those two to stack with them, but that's just not the case from my experience. But again, that goes back to being specific about quality of raw materials.

As far as Ashwagandha, if you're using Ashwagandha to help increase natural testosterone levels, I would strongly suggest you go with KSM-66. It has multiple clinical studies on it showing increases in testosterone levels. Even the Indian government has issued warnings about using non-standardized Ashwagandha products/raw materials.

Here are some links where you can read some good info about some of the things and products that I've mentioned.

If you're looking for KSM-66 Ashwagandha & Tongkat Ali in the same product, M-Test and Test Fix are great options:



Optimize-T has branded Bionutricia Tongkat Ali + SA3X Spilanthes, Furosap, Boron, & more:


Tongkat Ali XT provides the Bionutricia Tongkat Ali (std. to min. 2% Eurycomanone) and something really cool about the Bionutricia branded raws are that each batch of raw materials is independently confirmed by FRIM (Forestry Research Institute in Malaysia):


If you want KSM-66 solo &/or want to read more about that specific type, here's a link:


For prolactin control, our Inhibit-P is very comprehensive and a very popular product and used by a lot of people for helping reduce prolactin levels and a lot of great feedback on positive mood, improved libido, and improved sleep quality:


For a natural product that helps support estrogen modulation, Inhibit-E has been a very popular product and great seller for many years and is very unique in that its designed to help reduce estrogen without making it go too low:



I hope that info helps.
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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The reason that I asked is that with Tongkat Ali, there are a lot of different types of Tongkat Ali - high dosed non-standardized powder, ratio extracts, extracts for specific constituents, etc. And there are a lot of Tongkat products on the market that aren't what they claim to be. I never speak negatively about any particular brands, just stating facts on the raw materials themselves.

I know on our end, we have sold M-Test for probably 9 or 10 years with Tongkat Ali in it, Optimize-T for a couple years and specifically use the branded Bionutricia Tongkat Ali in it, Test Fix under Muscle Addiction with a ratio extract, and then have Tongkat Ali XT which is the Bionutricia min. 2% extract in it and I've never had a single email about any of these increasing estrogen or prolactin. But we are very specific with the raw materials that we use in them.

^^^ Keep in mind that if I thought they did increase estrogen or prolactin, I'd have every reason to say so because Inhibit-E (estrogen control) and Inhibit-P (prolactin control) are big sellers for us so I'd have every incentive to say they did and suggest people buying those two to stack with them, but that's just not the case from my experience. But again, that goes back to being specific about quality of raw materials.

As far as Ashwagandha, if you're using Ashwagandha to help increase natural testosterone levels, I would strongly suggest you go with KSM-66. It has multiple clinical studies on it showing increases in testosterone levels. Even the Indian government has issued warnings about using non-standardized Ashwagandha products/raw materials.

Here are some links where you can read some good info about some of the things and products that I've mentioned.

If you're looking for KSM-66 Ashwagandha & Tongkat Ali in the same product, M-Test and Test Fix are great options:



Optimize-T has branded Bionutricia Tongkat Ali + SA3X Spilanthes, Furosap, Boron, & more:


Tongkat Ali XT provides the Bionutricia Tongkat Ali (std. to min. 2% Eurycomanone) and something really cool about the Bionutricia branded raws are that each batch of raw materials is independently confirmed by FRIM (Forestry Research Institute in Malaysia):


If you want KSM-66 solo &/or want to read more about that specific type, here's a link:


For prolactin control, our Inhibit-P is very comprehensive and a very popular product and used by a lot of people for helping reduce prolactin levels and a lot of great feedback on positive mood, improved libido, and improved sleep quality:


For a natural product that helps support estrogen modulation, Inhibit-E has been a very popular product and great seller for many years and is very unique in that its designed to help reduce estrogen without making it go too low:



I hope that info helps.
that helps immensely, thank you!
I’m not sure if you had a chance to look at the labs I posted here, 3 weeks into tongkat. Considering my Estradiol was “normal” and my Prolactin was 23, would it be safe to assume I don’t need inhibit-E, but rather inhibit-P?
 
sns8778

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that helps immensely, thank you!
I’m not sure if you had a chance to look at the labs I posted here, 3 weeks into tongkat. Considering my Estradiol was “normal” and my Prolactin was 23, would it be safe to assume I don’t need inhibit-E, but rather inhibit-P?
If I were choosing between the two, I would go with Inhibit-P since you know that your prolactin levels are high.

BUT if it were me personally and I had the pea sized lump you're explaining, then I would use both Inhibit-P and Inhibit-E.

The reason for that is that it high prolactin can lead to an issue like that in some people, but it can also lead to an issue like that through increasing estrogen levels - and even though your estrogen levels are in the normal range, unless you have a previous test showing where your levels were, then you don't know if they are high for your standards of normal or not. I would think that they likely aren't, but I would run a bottle anyway if it were me just to try to help take care of the lump.

You might actually find that with Inhibit-E helping increase natural testosterone levels and lower estrogen levels, or put them into a more favorable ratio for you, that you may feel better on that than you did on the Tongkat Ali you were using.

If it were me personally, if I wanted to stay on Ashwagandha, I would go with KSM-66 like the link I posted - you could go with it as the single ingredient one or with Test Fix which has KSM-66, Fadogia, and Tongkat Ali all in there. You could use that while taking Inhibit-P and/or Inhibit-E or you could use those for a month together and then add in Test Fix or M-Test. M-Test is OOS at the moment but should be back in stock within the next week or two.

Inhibit-E is listed as out of stock on the website but I have a couple bottles; if you need one, pm me and I can turn the listing live for you so that you can get one.
 
Ziyo

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That can be a good sign tho that the extract is actually doing its job at raising testosterone and anything that raises testosterone in any way above the baseline will surely raise estrogen too. But this can be problematic for some people who are very sensitive and prone to these estro side effects.

Like others suggested, you can take inhibit-e and inhibit-p but I’d also suggest Letrone and Prolactrone by Black Lion Research..good stuff.
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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If I were choosing between the two, I would go with Inhibit-P since you know that your prolactin levels are high.

BUT if it were me personally and I had the pea sized lump you're explaining, then I would use both Inhibit-P and Inhibit-E.

The reason for that is that it high prolactin can lead to an issue like that in some people, but it can also lead to an issue like that through increasing estrogen levels - and even though your estrogen levels are in the normal range, unless you have a previous test showing where your levels were, then you don't know if they are high for your standards of normal or not. I would think that they likely aren't, but I would run a bottle anyway if it were me just to try to help take care of the lump.

You might actually find that with Inhibit-E helping increase natural testosterone levels and lower estrogen levels, or put them into a more favorable ratio for you, that you may feel better on that than you did on the Tongkat Ali you were using.

If it were me personally, if I wanted to stay on Ashwagandha, I would go with KSM-66 like the link I posted - you could go with it as the single ingredient one or with Test Fix which has KSM-66, Fadogia, and Tongkat Ali all in there. You could use that while taking Inhibit-P and/or Inhibit-E or you could use those for a month together and then add in Test Fix or M-Test. M-Test is OOS at the moment but should be back in stock within the next week or two.

Inhibit-E is listed as out of stock on the website but I have a couple bottles; if you need one, pm me and I can turn the listing live for you so that you can get one.
I’m going to place an order tonight. Also it looks like I can’t have KSM, since it unfortunately has dairy in it. Is it okay to stack both inhibit P & E together? Have people gotten labs to confirm they work well? (Not doubting you just curious 😊)
 

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That can be a good sign tho that the extract is actually doing its job at raising testosterone and anything that raises testosterone in any way above the baseline will surely raise estrogen too. But this can be problematic for some people who are very sensitive and prone to these estro side effects.

Like others suggested, you can take inhibit-e and inhibit-p but I’d also suggest Letrone and Prolactrone by Black Lion Research..good stuff.
yes it definitely made me easily turned on which I enjoyed. You’ll see from my labs though my test wasn’t that high above (641) and estrogen remained in normal ranges. Just my prolactin went up (23.5)
 
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yes it definitely made me easily turned on which I enjoyed. You’ll see from my labs though my test wasn’t that high above (641) and estrogen remained in normal ranges. Just my prolactin went up (23.5)
Oh I see…in that case try some BLR Prolactrone or SNS Inhibit-P which both contain L-dopa.
 
sns8778

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I’m going to place an order tonight. Also it looks like I can’t have KSM, since it unfortunately has dairy in it. Is it okay to stack both inhibit P & E together? Have people gotten labs to confirm they work well? (Not doubting you just curious 😊)
Is it because of being lactose intolerant?

The reason that I'm asking is that even though that on an allergen statement, its appropriate to mention 'Contains: Milk', it actually doesn't contain milk - its that the Ayurvedic production method uses milk during it. Therefore, by law, the allergen warning is appropriate, but any residual milk would be in very negligible amounts and not be problematic for people with lactose intolerance.

^^^ That's not just me stating an opinion, that information is per Ixoreal, the company that owns the patents and produces KSM-66.

An example - there's one forum member on here that I know of that is lactose intolerant and has issues with even trace amounts of lactose and he has used M-Test for years and never had any issues with the KSM-66 milk content.

If its another reason for avoiding milk, you could look at Optimize-T, which has a lot of great feedback here and contains 8 different branded ingredients including:
  • Furosap - a clinically researched form of Fenugreek specifically extracted for active constituents to help increase testosterone levels and has been shown to be effective in several clinical studies.
  • SA3X Spilanthes - the form of Spilanthes that has clinical studies on it showing increases in testosterone levels.
  • Bionutricia Tongkat Ali - std. to min. 2% Eurycomanone; and the great part about Bionutricia is that every batch of raw materials is independently confirmed by confirmed by the Forestry Research Institute of Malaysia.
  • PrimaVie Shilajit - numerous clinical studies on increasing testosterone levels and a lot of other benefits.
  • Boron - from Albion's boroganic glycine, which is a superior form of Boron in terms of absorption
  • S7 - numerous benefits including increasing the body's natural nitric oxide production which can support cardiovascular health, erection quality, improved circulation, and more.

Here's a thread here on AM that has a lot of feedback on Optimize-T:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Inhibit-E & Inhibit-P:

We work with a lot of people that have bloodwork done regularly that take the products because we get a lot of referrals for both products from some HRT clinics, men's health physicians, and even a few fertility specialists. So that's a client base that is getting regular labs done and sharing them with their medical professionals who are the ones referring them to use them.

There have been people on here in the past post labs for both products back when the board was more active.

We stick with science, not a sales pitch as to our formulations and the write ups on both products are very detailed as to how they work. If you have any questions, you're welcome to ask or you're welcome to pm me.
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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Is it because of being lactose intolerant?

The reason that I'm asking is that even though that on an allergen statement, its appropriate to mention 'Contains: Milk', it actually doesn't contain milk - its that the Ayurvedic production method uses milk during it. Therefore, by law, the allergen warning is appropriate, but any residual milk would be in very negligible amounts and not be problematic for people with lactose intolerance.

^^^ That's not just me stating an opinion, that information is per Ixoreal, the company that owns the patents and produces KSM-66.

An example - there's one forum member on here that I know of that is lactose intolerant and has issues with even trace amounts of lactose and he has used M-Test for years and never had any issues with the KSM-66 milk content.

If its another reason for avoiding milk, you could look at Optimize-T, which has a lot of great feedback here and contains 8 different branded ingredients including:
  • Furosap - a clinically researched form of Fenugreek specifically extracted for active constituents to help increase testosterone levels and has been shown to be effective in several clinical studies.
  • SA3X Spilanthes - the form of Spilanthes that has clinical studies on it showing increases in testosterone levels.
  • Bionutricia Tongkat Ali - std. to min. 2% Eurycomanone; and the great part about Bionutricia is that every batch of raw materials is independently confirmed by confirmed by the Forestry Research Institute of Malaysia.
  • PrimaVie Shilajit - numerous clinical studies on increasing testosterone levels and a lot of other benefits.
  • Boron - from Albion's boroganic glycine, which is a superior form of Boron in terms of absorption
  • S7 - numerous benefits including increasing the body's natural nitric oxide production which can support cardiovascular health, erection quality, improved circulation, and more.

Here's a thread here on AM that has a lot of feedback on Optimize-T:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Inhibit-E & Inhibit-P:

We work with a lot of people that have bloodwork done regularly that take the products because we get a lot of referrals for both products from some HRT clinics, men's health physicians, and even a few fertility specialists. So that's a client base that is getting regular labs done and sharing them with their medical professionals who are the ones referring them to use them.

There have been people on here in the past post labs for both products back when the board was more active.

We stick with science, not a sales pitch as to our formulations and the write ups on both products are very detailed as to how they work. If you have any questions, you're welcome to ask or you're welcome to pm me.
I appreciate you! Order inhibit P/E. I also found a KSM without diary. Would you cycle KSM?
 
sns8778

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I appreciate you! Order inhibit P/E. I also found a KSM without diary. Would you cycle KSM?
KSM did not too long ago release a version where the milk pre-treatment is skipped for the vegan community BUT you need to be very careful with that because a lot of companies really don't know which form their cm's are using in products and as of the time that that version was launched, many cm's still have big supplies of the version that is pretreated with milk.

I know that we will be going with the version without milk pretreatment at some point in the future, but won't make the changes until we run out of existing labels bc I think in 10+ years, this is maybe the third time anyone has expressed an issue with it. I'd planned on making the change to that form in M-Test when we redo the labels slightly and change over to Veg caps, which we will do later in the year.

I use M-Test year round which has KSM-66 in it.

I hope that you'll be very pleased with Inhibit-E and Inhibit-P.
 
Wobmarvel

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I am literally sitting in the hospital waiting for a mammogram (believe it or not) due to developing a small pea sized lump last November after using two test boosters back to back that both contained tongkat Ali. Itchy and overly sensitive nipples for a few days and a lump developed within a week. I ran tamox but didn't go away although sensitivity has pretty much gone. Doctor needs to check it isn't a tumor so here I am...
 
TheMrMuscle

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I am literally sitting in the hospital waiting for a mammogram (believe it or not) due to developing a small pea sized lump last November after using two test boosters back to back that both contained tongkat Ali. Itchy and overly sensitive nipples for a few days and a lump developed within a week. I ran tamox but didn't go away although sensitivity has pretty much gone. Doctor needs to check it isn't a tumor so here I am...
Godspeed brother. Make sure to update us.
 
Wobmarvel

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Anyone heard of this? The yield seems a bit crazy.
Screenshot_2023-03-02-12-15-59-916_com.android.chrome.jpeg
 

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Anyone heard of this? The yield seems a bit crazy.View attachment 229727
It’s actually a pretty broad spectrum extract. You want to look for Eurycomanone specifically, which I think LJ100 is like .8% or something. I don’t remember the number. It’s not a bad extract, but for the price, I’d look for something else.
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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I am literally sitting in the hospital waiting for a mammogram (believe it or not) due to developing a small pea sized lump last November after using two test boosters back to back that both contained tongkat Ali. Itchy and overly sensitive nipples for a few days and a lump developed within a week. I ran tamox but didn't go away although sensitivity has pretty much gone. Doctor needs to check it isn't a tumor so here I am...
99% chance it’s not going to be a tumor. I don’t blame you for checking but this was caused excess prolactin and/or estrogen. This is evident that the compound(s) were working as it altered your hormonal signaling. Unfortunately, and as in my case, an unusual uptick in test and/or free test can cause your body to react in odd ways.

Were you by chance on an SSRI or pain meds which may have put you in a more vulnerable position to have gyno related symptoms?

Being upset about this is likely temporary, your gyno may not ever completely vanish, but you will eventually not notice nor be bothered by it. “This too shall pass”.
 
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99% chance it’s not going to be a tumor. I don’t blame you for checking but this was caused excess prolactin and/or estrogen. This is evident that the compound(s) were working as it altered your hormonal signaling. Unfortunately, and as in my case, an unusual uptick in test and/or free test can cause your body to react in odd ways.

Were you by chance on an SSRI or pain meds which may have put you in a more vulnerable position to have gyno related symptoms?

Being upset about this is likely temporary, your gyno may not ever completely vanish, but you will eventually not notice nor be bothered by it. “This too shall pass”.
Thanks for the response and apologies to the OP because I feel like a thread hijacker. I am almost certain it's not a tumor. I went to the doctor's to see if they can do bloods and check my test levels because of my suspected gyno and it's them who have referred me for scans and ultrasound because it's just general practice for any lumps. My test levels came back at just over 500 which I'm quite pleased about tbh because over the years I've used sarms, prohormones, superdrol, halodrol, epistane and never ran a true test base. Unfortunately the NHS do not test mens estrogen or prolactin levels so no idea how out of whack things could be in that department.
 

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Thanks for the response and apologies to the OP because I feel like a thread hijacker. I am almost certain it's not a tumor. I went to the doctor's to see if they can do bloods and check my test levels because of my suspected gyno and it's them who have referred me for scans and ultrasound because it's just general practice for any lumps. My test levels came back at just over 500 which I'm quite pleased about tbh because over the years I've used sarms, prohormones, superdrol, halodrol, epistane and never ran a true test base. Unfortunately the NHS do not test mens estrogen or prolactin levels so no idea how out of whack things could be in that department.
Nice! 500 is not bad. I was very happy with my 640, but I haven’t used anything.
 
sns8778

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Anyone heard of this? The yield seems a bit crazy.View attachment 229727
LJ100 is a branded ingredient and is an okay form of Tongkat Ali, but a very expensive one.

But like @Jeremyk1 pointed out, its a bit misleading the way that its labeled in the sense that the %'s seem super high until you realize that what you need to be looking at is really the Eurycomanone content and its a lot more expensive and lesser Eurycomanone than the Bionutricia version that we use in Tongkat Ali XT for example.
 
sns8778

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Have you thought about ralox? I’m thinking that might a solution for me.
I would encourage you, or anyone, that is thinking of using Ralox to only do so under a physician's care and to think really hard and research not just the bodybuilding type forums but also mental health forums about it because it can have some brutal side effects for a lot of people including problems with sleeping, moodiness, and depression, sometimes very severe.

To me, a medication like that would be a last resort - because a lot of the side effects of it are things that are the opposite of what people typically experience from a good prolactin control product like Inhibit-P - like improved mood, improved sleep quality, etc.
 

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I would encourage you, or anyone, that is thinking of using Ralox to only do so under a physician's care and to think really hard and research not just the bodybuilding type forums but also mental health forums about it because it can have some brutal side effects for a lot of people including problems with sleeping, moodiness, and depression, sometimes very severe.

To me, a medication like that would be a last resort - because a lot of the side effects of it are things that are the opposite of what people typically experience from a good prolactin control product like Inhibit-P - like improved mood, improved sleep quality, etc.
Thanks for your quick response. But could inhibit P actually diminish a hard, painful to the touch, lump? I’m hopeful the answer is yes 😊.
 
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Thanks for your quick response. But could inhibit P actually diminish a hard, painful to the touch, lump? I’m hopeful the answer is yes 😊.
The answer to that is that it is going to depend on the person and individual factors such as how long its been there and whether the root cause is estrogen, prolactin, or a combination of the two playing a role.

On bodybuilding forums and groups, people just tend to talk about Ralox like its nothing serious, but it actually can have some very serious side effects. I think you don't see that talked about much in the bodybuilding community because you don't see many people open about mental health issues in general in this side of things, but if you look at mental health discussions and side effects, you'll find a lot of reports of severe life altering depression with Ralox. So I always encourage people to look at the big picture and take it seriously before jumping into using something like that.
 

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The answer to that is that it is going to depend on the person and individual factors such as how long its been there and whether the root cause is estrogen, prolactin, or a combination of the two playing a role.

On bodybuilding forums and groups, people just tend to talk about Ralox like its nothing serious, but it actually can have some very serious side effects. I think you don't see that talked about much in the bodybuilding community because you don't see many people open about mental health issues in general in this side of things, but if you look at mental health discussions and side effects, you'll find a lot of reports of severe life altering depression with Ralox. So I always encourage people to look at the big picture and take it seriously before jumping into using something like that.
Thank you!! Lastly, I see you previously mentioned staying on KSM-66 despite high prolactin/gyno symptoms. I’ve been doing a bit of research; it appears KSM-66 is similar to a low grade SSRI. I’ve also read that SSRIs can raise prolactin. Wouldn’t it be better to stay off KSM-66 for this reason?
 

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Thank you!! Lastly, I see you previously mentioned staying on KSM-66 despite high prolactin/gyno symptoms. I’ve been doing a bit of research; it appears KSM-66 is similar to a low grade SSRI. I’ve also read that SSRIs can raise prolactin. Wouldn’t it be better to stay off KSM-66 for this reason?
It may have some similar benefits, but the mechanisms are going to be very different. I’m not aware of anything showing it could increase prolactin.
 
sns8778

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Thank you!! Lastly, I see you previously mentioned staying on KSM-66 despite high prolactin/gyno symptoms. I’ve been doing a bit of research; it appears KSM-66 is similar to a low grade SSRI. I’ve also read that SSRIs can raise prolactin. Wouldn’t it be better to stay off KSM-66 for this reason?
It may have some similar benefits, but the mechanisms are going to be very different. I’m not aware of anything showing it could increase prolactin.
@Jeremyk1 nailed it with his answer.

KSM-66 is not going to raise prolactin. I have an endocrinology condition and probably have more hormonal bloodwork done regularly than anyone on the forum (I don't mean that in a good way, I'm comically skiddish of needles haha), and prolactin is one of the things I have to have checked regularly. Inhibit-P has always helped mine dramatically and I recently started back using it as a daily use supplement to help keep it leveled. But my point relating to KSM-66 is that I use M-Test year round and it has KSM-66 in it and its never caused an increase in my prolactin levels.
 
sns8778

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I thought tongkat actually lowered prolactin
Tongkat Ali can be confusing because some people say that it lowers prolactin, occasionally you see someone say they think it increased it. Then you see the same thing for estrogen - that some people say it lowers it, some people say it increased theirs.

I think a big part of the issue is that people refer to Tongkat Ali as all one thing, when in reality it is an herb that has different constituents in it.

It's complicated and I have been meaning to write an article on it for awhile, but I've held off on writing because stating facts tends to result in arguments with people that are pushing agendas if that makes sense.

But basically, there is Tongkat Ali powder which is dirt cheap and brands can use the marketing ploy of offering super high milligrams of it, which looks great as a selling tool to the unknowing consumer. Then there are a variety of different extracts from percentage extracts to % of Eurycomanone extracts. Percentage extracts are stronger than herb powder, but % Eurycomanone extracts are stronger than % extracts.

Then there are two major BUT's:

1) This category has a lot of fly by night companies that just straight lie about the extracts and constituent content of their products.

2) The key with Eurycomanone seems to be taking enough but not taking too much.

For example, you commonly hear about the unwanted effects of Tongkat Ali with the herb powder or with brands you've never heard of that claim to be extracts but likely are just the herb powder and also with the high % extract Eurycomanone products.

We've had people ask us if we'll do a 10% Eurycomanone version and we might, but I'm personally not a fan of it because I think the 2-3% range is better because it tends to provide great results without the negatives. Even at equivalent dosing - 300 mg. of a 3% would be 9 mg. and 100 mg. of a 10% would be 10 mg., the negatives of a 10% seem to be a lot higher with the 10% ones. If we decide to offer one, it'll be because of demand, not because I personally think that's the best type.

In my opinion, if looking for a high potency one, the perfect strength is a 2 to 3% Eurycomanone which is why that's what we use in Tongkat Ali XT and Optimize-T. And we use the Bionutricia branded version because every batch of theirs is independently verified by the Forestry Research Institute in Malaysia.

In post # 6 in this link I break it down some as to why we use different types in different products:

 

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I agree and I have the sns one. Great! If I had the fadogua xt to combine I'm thinking Wow as those 2 are my go too. I'll keep you posted when I have a chance to combine!
 
sns8778

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I agree and I have the sns one. Great! If I had the fadogua xt to combine I'm thinking Wow as those 2 are my go too. I'll keep you posted when I have a chance to combine!
That should be a great stack for you. I look forward to hearing your feedback.

I knew that you knew more about that subject than most, I was kind of replying to you but posting in a way that other people reading would hopefully understand and help them as well.
 

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It's interesting that you are seeing estrogen sides from TA, especially as the one you are taking is an extract for eurycomanone, which has shown anti-estrogen capability. The 10% they sell is being reported to be "crashing" estro in people, so not sure what may be happening.
 

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It's interesting that you are seeing estrogen sides from TA, especially as the one you are taking is an extract for eurycomanone, which has shown anti-estrogen capability. The 10% they sell is being reported to be "crashing" estro in people, so not sure what may be happening.
Yeah I dropped it 8 days ago now. Gonna get labs done next Wednesday. I’ll be sure to post if there’s any interest. This time I’m getting free test and cortisol done too.
 
Wobmarvel

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Have you thought about ralox? I’m thinking that might a solution for me.
So I'm a week or so into a low dose cycle of rad140 and the gyno is almost completely gone, or at least some days it doesn't flare up at all is probably more accurate. I have a theory that my body prefers or has become accustomed to lower test levels. I feel great on rad but I'm aware it will slowly cause suppression. I think having done a few cycles over the years without test that lower test levels have become the new norm and when I decided to start running natural test boosters the boost on natural test caused a hormonal Ballance upset which may have spiked the gyno. Complete bro science theory of course but I feel a hell of a lot better on rad than I did on optimize T and innovapharm test but it was while on them that the gyno got bad.
 
sns8778

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So I'm a week or so into a low dose cycle of rad140 and the gyno is almost completely gone, or at least some days it doesn't flare up at all is probably more accurate. I have a theory that my body prefers or has become accustomed to lower test levels. I feel great on rad but I'm aware it will slowly cause suppression. I think having done a few cycles over the years without test that lower test levels have become the new norm and when I decided to start running natural test boosters the boost on natural test caused a hormonal Ballance upset which may have spiked the gyno. Complete bro science theory of course but I feel a hell of a lot better on rad than I did on optimize T and innovapharm test but it was while on them that the gyno got bad.
The way you're explaining it I think you are on to something with your body likely being used to a lower test level from having used things over the years that caused suppression; but I think there's likely a little more to it.

If you are correct, and I think that you may be, its important to remember that using natural test boosters isn't the cause of your gyno issues, they're aggravating an hormonal issue that already exists from using some suppressive things over the years. And its a good chance that the gyno itself already existed but causing an increase in test levels caused it to flare up. Basically test boosters aren't the causation, they're an aggravating factor of something that is/was already there.

So in a case like that, its important to keep that in mind for your future - whether that involves test boosters, TRT, or anything else - in that you need to keep in mind that for you, the key isn't to go all out trying to raise test quickly, it should be about intentionally raising it slowly and worrying more about your test to estrogen ratio than the individual numbers themselves.

I hope that makes sense. Basically, whether we're talking test boosters or TRT, you may need to go into dosing slowly and use estrogen control items even with things that other people don't need to to help get levels where you want them or where they need to be. For example, the average person wouldn't need to run any type of anti-estrogen with the products you mentioned whereas you may benefit from running Inhibit-E with them.

This isn't me just talking - what I'm explaining is one reason that we get a lot of referrals from HRT clinics for Inhibit-E because some men, especially those that have a history of suppression, are more sensitive to increasing their testosterone levels back and the most common TRT e control is Arimidex but its hard to find a balance for some men, some some clinics refer people to buy Inhibit-E for daily use to help level it out.

I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense. And I'm posting that not just to you, but for anyone that may read now or in the future that is in a similar situation that that may help.
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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The way you're explaining it I think you are on to something with your body likely being used to a lower test level from having used things over the years that caused suppression; but I think there's likely a little more to it.

If you are correct, and I think that you may be, its important to remember that using natural test boosters isn't the cause of your gyno issues, they're aggravating an hormonal issue that already exists from using some suppressive things over the years. And its a good chance that the gyno itself already existed but causing an increase in test levels caused it to flare up. Basically test boosters aren't the causation, they're an aggravating factor of something that is/was already there.

So in a case like that, its important to keep that in mind for your future - whether that involves test boosters, TRT, or anything else - in that you need to keep in mind that for you, the key isn't to go all out trying to raise test quickly, it should be about intentionally raising it slowly and worrying more about your test to estrogen ratio than the individual numbers themselves.

I hope that makes sense. Basically, whether we're talking test boosters or TRT, you may need to go into dosing slowly and use estrogen control items even with things that other people don't need to to help get levels where you want them or where they need to be. For example, the average person wouldn't need to run any type of anti-estrogen with the products you mentioned whereas you may benefit from running Inhibit-E with them.

This isn't me just talking - what I'm explaining is one reason that we get a lot of referrals from HRT clinics for Inhibit-E because some men, especially those that have a history of suppression, are more sensitive to increasing their testosterone levels back and the most common TRT e control is Arimidex but its hard to find a balance for some men, some some clinics refer people to buy Inhibit-E for daily use to help level it out.

I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense. And I'm posting that not just to you, but for anyone that may read now or in the future that is in a similar situation that that may help.
This is very insightful. For this reason I think people, like myself, may benefit from Inhibit-E while running Tongkat. I can remember years ago, like 2012, that DAA aggravated my nipples too, itchiness.
 
sns8778

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This is very insightful. For this reason I think people, like myself, may benefit from Inhibit-E while running Tongkat. I can remember years ago, like 2012, that DAA aggravated my nipples too, itchiness.
Thank you.

I agree that I think some people may get a lot of benefit from running Inhibit-E with a lot of different test boosters. And an important thing with Inhibit-E is that its designed to help reduce estrogen but also help support healthy estrogen metabolism and help to keep estrogen levels down and in check but not crush them because you don't want them to go too low.

Inhibit-P is similar in that people on here tend to only associate it with on cycle or PCT use from anabolics but I would say that 95% of our customer base for it are people that don't use anabolics and just have naturally high prolactin levels. People tend to think of bloodwork as absolutes and prolactin has quite a range. If for example, levels are supposed to be less than 20 for a male for it to be considered 'normal', if you're used to being a 12 and for some reason yours goes up to 18, its still in the normal range but not normal for you at all and you may feel like crap.
 
LeanEngineer

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Inhibit-E and Tongkat Ali would get a nice set up for sure. May have to give that a run myself!
 
JohnnieFreeze

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I've been taking KSM-66 solo at just one 600mg cap a day and blood test showed Testosterone levels go from low normal to the high normal range. As a guy in his late 50s I was quite pleased. I've recently ordered a bottle of Tongkat Ali XT but I'm not sure if I want to stack or run it solo for a while. Admittedly I'm curious as to what kind of boost is possible by stacking the two.
 

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I've been taking KSM-66 solo at just one 600mg cap a day and blood test showed Testosterone levels go from low normal to the high normal range. As a guy in his late 50s I was quite pleased. I've recently ordered a bottle of Tongkat Ali XT but I'm not sure if I want to stack or run it solo for a while. Admittedly I'm curious as to what kind of boost is possible by stacking the two.
That’s great. What were your bloods? Did you measure free test?
 
JohnnieFreeze

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Unfortunately, free test wasn't measured and I dont have the "before" numbers in my records but values have at least doubled.

ComponentYour ValueStandard Range
Testosterone 614.85 ng/dL 86.98 - 780.10 ng/dL
 

ProgressiveOvrload

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Unfortunately, free test wasn't measured and I dont have the "before" numbers in my records but values have at least doubled.

ComponentYour ValueStandard Range
Testosterone 614.85 ng/dL 86.98 - 780.10 ng/dL
Outstanding. I only have 30 points on you and I’m 31. Shame on me!!
 

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