MrKleen73
Legend
What is it with old dudes wanting to walk around nekked?!?!?!?!
To Infinity.... and Beyond!
- Thread starter Dustin07
- Start date
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
You don't think 6 sets per week is enough?
I've greatly increased my delt volume. I hate biceps though. Not fun at all.
MrKleen73
Legend
Not to push growth. I mean it has been enough to get you where you are but if you aren't happy with that you need to up the volume a bit. If I were focusing on my biceps for growth I would be pushing closer to 12-18 sets a week over 2-3 workouts. Biceps can handle a lot of volume and frequency, same as shoulders, and triceps. A lot of it can be good effective pump sets, not killing yourself going for maximum strength numbers. For instance you could do barbell curls or DB Curls heavier focusing on strength and the rest in good pump work working up to say an RPE8.
Dustin07
Legend
I don't think it's enough sets for a single day lol I mean if I'm doing a legit biceps day it's gonna look more like this
3-4 sets of db curls warm up 30s, then 35s, 40s, 45s adding weight and sets until I can't hit 8+ reps anymore.
2-3 sets of hammer curls usually 50s, then 60s if I'm feeling randy
3-4 more sets of ez bar curls AND/OR machine curls cause I like the TUT, usually 80lb bar top set, then zero rest drop sets
finish with seated concentration curls, at this point the DB's have dropped from 40s and 50s to like 25s and 30s if I'm lucky
and if I'm still riding the pump, I'll hit cable curls with my only real goal making sure I have no idea how to get my shirt off in the locker room
Dustin07
Legend
I do curls daily very very light weight as a warm up but if I'm doing them for legit focused arm work and I'm carbed up and ready to go I'll go to RPE4,000 with cheater reps. I'll hump that ez bar curl up to my chest then on reps 8, 9, and 10 drop that thing as slow as I can till it feels like my bicep is going to explode
I just don't worry about any type of cns destruction on isolation work, I either do it to failure for the pump, or I'm sorta lazy about it and do it as an accessory.
Dustin07
Legend
I don't think it's enough sets for a single day lol I mean if I'm doing a legit biceps day it's gonna look more like this
3-4 sets of db curls warm up 30s, then 35s, 40s, 45s adding weight and sets until I can't hit 8+ reps anymore.
2-3 sets of hammer curls usually 50s, then 60s if I'm feeling randy
3-4 more sets of ez bar curls AND/OR machine curls cause I like the TUT, usually 80lb bar top set, then zero rest drop sets
finish with seated concentration curls, at this point the DB's have dropped from 40s and 50s to like 25s and 30s if I'm lucky
and if I'm still riding the pump, I'll hit cable curls with my only real goal making sure I have no idea how to get my shirt off in the locker room
also @GreenMachineX if I'm doing a session like this, I'm carbing prewo, and I'm drinking something like protein intra workout after I finish my heaviest compound set. I wouldn't do destruction like this unless I was trying to pump some nutrients in there.
MrKleen73
Legend
For that 3rd exercise you might try DB incline curls to hit the long head in a nice stretch. It is an often forgotten area that provides some nice growth.I don't think it's enough sets for a single day lol I mean if I'm doing a legit biceps day it's gonna look more like this
3-4 sets of db curls warm up 30s, then 35s, 40s, 45s adding weight and sets until I can't hit 8+ reps anymore.
2-3 sets of hammer curls usually 50s, then 60s if I'm feeling randy
3-4 more sets of ez bar curls AND/OR machine curls cause I like the TUT, usually 80lb bar top set, then zero rest drop sets
finish with seated concentration curls, at this point the DB's have dropped from 40s and 50s to like 25s and 30s if I'm lucky
and if I'm still riding the pump, I'll hit cable curls with my only real goal making sure I have no idea how to get my shirt off in the locker room
Rocket3015
Legend
All good ideas @MrKleen73 !! Good Lookin Out!!
Dustin07
Legend
Oh yes my buddy and I recently started throwing them in, they're legit!!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Actually, I didn't do any arms for years and got to 17". Not huge, but big enough. I just started doing arms a few months prior to my 6 month layoff, and now again for 3 months. I guess I find it hard to grasp that if 10 sets for back and chest is sufficient, why wouldn't less be sufficient for one of the smallest muscle groups there is?
FWIW, between all the layoffs and medical stuff, I realize now I should've been doing arms the whole time. Definitely lagging.
Rocket3015
Legend
A 17" arm is respectable!!
MrKleen73
Legend
Thanks!
Yeah they are brutal try lowering the bench even lower than 45 degrees for a serious stretched position!
Yeah they definitely grow from all of the pressing and pulling with compound movements. For what it is worth my arms are smaller than I want for the same reason. Mine was kind of intentional in a naive way. I didn't want to look like one of those skinny guys with no thickness and the big bulbous arms. However there is not much I can do to make myself not thick. So it was a silly effort that slowed my development too. I am right at 17 1/2 and 17 3/8 myself. However now know I need some more muscle to support the connective tissue in my strength efforts. Plus it would be really cool to have bigger arms.
Regarding the volume and frequency of biceps training, think of it kind of like this. If you do 10% damage to 2lbs of muscle, and 10% damage to 30lbs of muscle which do you think I can repair and be fresh and ready to train faster? The smaller repair is going to be faster. The shoulders and triceps are the same they can handle more volume and frequency and grow better with it.
Also, this is how you would want to focus on any muscle group you want to bring up. You increase the volume over what you have been, and if really focusing on bringing up a lagging part you lower the volume in your strongest body parts temporarily so the body can use the recovered resources to repair the muscle group you are focusing on. Now if a question of just not enough volume and you are already recovering well then you can just bump biceps volume up. I think you can probably get away with the second approach at least for a while but if you ever really want to focus on them specifically you will want to rob Peter to pay Paul so to speak by taking volume from your best body parts so there is more available for the others.
I agree completely! However I would still love an 18 inch arm!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I *was* 17 inch arm before the 6 months off and medical stuff last year...just checked, down to 16.5"
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Gotcha. I'll bump the volume up then. Thanks.
Thanks!
Yeah they are brutal try lowering the bench even lower than 45 degrees for a serious stretched position!
Yeah they definitely grow from all of the pressing and pulling with compound movements. For what it is worth my arms are smaller than I want for the same reason. Mine was kind of intentional in a naive way. I didn't want to look like one of those skinny guys with no thickness and the big bulbous arms. However there is not much I can do to make myself not thick. So it was a silly effort that slowed my development too. I am right at 17 1/2 and 17 3/8 myself. However now know I need some more muscle to support the connective tissue in my strength efforts. Plus it would be really cool to have bigger arms.
Regarding the volume and frequency of biceps training, think of it kind of like this. If you do 10% damage to 2lbs of muscle, and 10% damage to 30lbs of muscle which do you think I can repair and be fresh and ready to train faster? The smaller repair is going to be faster. The shoulders and triceps are the same they can handle more volume and frequency and grow better with it.
Also, this is how you would want to focus on any muscle group you want to bring up. You increase the volume over what you have been, and if really focusing on bringing up a lagging part you lower the volume in your strongest body parts temporarily so the body can use the recovered resources to repair the muscle group you are focusing on. Now if a question of just not enough volume and you are already recovering well then you can just bump biceps volume up. I think you can probably get away with the second approach at least for a while but if you ever really want to focus on them specifically you will want to rob Peter to pay Paul so to speak by taking volume from your best body parts so there is more available for the others.
I agree completely! However I would still love an 18 inch arm!
Rocket3015
Legend
I agree completely! However I would still love an 18 inch arm!
That has been my goal for years !!
Dustin07
Legend
all I know is that food plus what seems like excessive training are the only things that have made mine grow.
I just measured and mine are 28" from shoulder to tip of finger
man I haven't done muscle ups in like a year or two I bet. that is one movement I miss from when I made a bigger focus on mobility and gpp
I just measured and mine are 28" from shoulder to tip of finger
man I haven't done muscle ups in like a year or two I bet. that is one movement I miss from when I made a bigger focus on mobility and gpp
dapack
Well-known member
Haven't worked biceps in awhile but for me easiest way is just to focus on hitting 100 reps a session. Really doesn't matter movement so much but just get to 100 reps. Usually 1st few sets will be lighter 15 to 20 and from there on out start at 10 reps or so and depending on my mood might go as low as 5 to 7 throughout the process.
MrKleen73
Legend
Damn it! I know how that feels!!! If it makes you feel any better before I started peppering more arm work in after my surgery in late August of last year my right was at 16.5 and my left was at 15.5!!! I have recovered back up to this level in the last 8 months. I have about half an inch to get to my biggest arms ever.I *was* 17 inch arm before the 6 months off and medical stuff last year...just checked, down to 16.5"
Good deal I think you will notice some good improvements within a couple months.
I think that is kind of like the 225 or 315 bench press goal universal for most of us muscle heads. Somehow 18 inch arms became the go to number i have heard from most people.
All good points! I would definitely say my arms are on par with most of my physique in a general way but when it comes to more of a bodybuilding look need a little more size. I would also say that during most of my training I trained exactly the way you mentioned and that got me pretty decent size arms. Just not BIG ones.
MrKleen73
Legend
LMAO! I wasn't expecting that Dad joke inserted there!
Before I tore my subscap I was starting to make the muscle up a goal, and was so close to it. Got decent at kipping pull ups then tore the subscap and labrum doing a clean. That ended that effort since I haven't been able to get that shoulder repaired yet.
Dustin07
Legend
interesting thing about MUs is everyone used to tell me they felt safer on the rings than the bar cause they could bail easier if they needed to, but the only shoulder injuries/pain I ever got from MU's was on the rings. bar MU's I remember just thinking it's a huge pull up followed by the biggest crunch of your life lol. It was such a major part of my life but of the top of my head I'm not sure I even remember how to coach them anymore lol.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yeah this is similar to the suggestion of working heavy for a main lift then doing mostly pump work for the following sets and exercises. Stress the tissue a lil then pump it up. I may have to do a little playing with my BFR cuffs. I haven't used them in forever!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
So in 9 months, what size are yours now?
And to clarify, do y'all measure arms flexed?
MrKleen73
Legend
Left is 17 3/8, and Right is 17 1/4 that is flexed but no pump or anything. I have been hitting both biceps and triceps twice a week on average. I was about 1/4 inch larger on both arms at my best back in 2018.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Holy smokes man...that's crazy gains!
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes Sir, Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. Also don't forget I had a small recovery cycle after my surgery that got me up to 17 on both arms by the end of the year although VERY light lifting during that time. However everything after 17 inches has been since I went off the first weekend in January. I have still been making great progress. I think you can get that half inch back pretty quickly with a bit of focus.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Gotcha. Well, once I'm done with this easy week, I'll turn it all the way up!
Dustin07
Legend
Bench
2 x 10 x 135
3 x 185
1 x 215, 235, 255, 275
0 x 290 (yes I went for it, and honestly I had it, but my back slid up the bench about 4" while I was pressing so I had my buddy take it from me half way through)
5 x 245
17 x 185
SS
3 x 290
CGBP
10 x 155
+Redband
2 x 10 x 155
Lateral shoulder raises
12 x 25s
12 x 32.5s
10 x 40s
10 x 30s
Machine dips
3 sets
TRI cable extensions
3 sets
Tricep cable pull downs
3 sets
Notes
No UH, etc in April. Only pump addict preWO. Resting the system for the month and want to see how I hold up without it. I can definitely feel the difference. Now I REALLY love Ultra Hard lol
Crazy full body high today, like a runners high after every set.
2 x 10 x 135
3 x 185
1 x 215, 235, 255, 275
0 x 290 (yes I went for it, and honestly I had it, but my back slid up the bench about 4" while I was pressing so I had my buddy take it from me half way through)
5 x 245
17 x 185
SS
3 x 290
CGBP
10 x 155
+Redband
2 x 10 x 155
Lateral shoulder raises
12 x 25s
12 x 32.5s
10 x 40s
10 x 30s
Machine dips
3 sets
TRI cable extensions
3 sets
Tricep cable pull downs
3 sets
Notes
No UH, etc in April. Only pump addict preWO. Resting the system for the month and want to see how I hold up without it. I can definitely feel the difference. Now I REALLY love Ultra Hard lol
Crazy full body high today, like a runners high after every set.
Last edited:
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
You've tasted the Darkside
Dustin07
Legend
when I was competing I could do either 20-25 strict pull-ups or 40-50 kipping and to be honest I felt like I got a MASSIVE back pump out of huge kipping pull ups sets. if we had a workout with 100+ pull ups in it I'd walk sideways through doorways. I used to hate how people would rip on kipping pull-ups like the old meme counting them 0....0.....0...0...
I was like thats fine, lets have a strict pull up competition then. I'd slam out 20, 25, maybe more and that usually shut people up for a while.
You've tasted the Darkside
and it tasted good. But after 4 days of no TDs, nor even anabolic XT, or anything else my nipples finally stopped itching and I noticed my pecks looked the same at night as they did in the morning lol. I've been toying with the UH and dermacrine since feb so it seems like it's time for a rest anyways.
I did pick up some maca supplement, alpha gpc, and an orchic extract for fun just to see how everything responds. Todays session was crazy in terms of pumps and like I said, crazy runners high. I did take about 1.5 scoops of pump addict vs my normal 1 but I truly don't think I need 2 scoops of pump addict. 1 is plenty. and I say this as someone who was taking probably almost 2 of TotalWar before....
Without the UH my sessions are fine, but they feel more raw. I definitely had a heightened sense of aggression in a very positive way, focus, and energy with UH. It's hard to believe that putting a little "lotion" on my skin a couple hours prewo could have that effect on me but it definitely did. Dermacrine was awesome too although I still wonder about whether or not I had a negative reaction to that. I never got in to get my blood work done so who knows. Maybe I'll get some done here later in April and try it again. but between the two compounds UH was by far my favorite.
I did "FEEL" like i was getting hella strong on dermacrine though. appetite was up, I gained weight very easily on dermacrine, strength seemed to be up. UH seemed almost like it ramped up my metabolism. If I didn't TRY to eat over the weekend I'd lose weight, whereas normally I gain 3-6lbs on a weekend.
Dustin07
Legend
You know what, forget what i Just said. I was doing butterflies.
In my head I was using kipping and butterflies interchangeably but they're actually quite different.
Dustin07
Legend
random thought from my desk as I'm pounding some chicken;
Seems like Dermacrine would be great for a bulk but based on my very limited experience maybe the UH would be the best way to go on a cut to preserve some strength. I'd love to maybe set may 1st as a hard core month of cutting with strength preservation also being a massive priority, UH being supplement choice numero uno. IDK if I should wait longer than 1 month before getting back on it though.
Seems like Dermacrine would be great for a bulk but based on my very limited experience maybe the UH would be the best way to go on a cut to preserve some strength. I'd love to maybe set may 1st as a hard core month of cutting with strength preservation also being a massive priority, UH being supplement choice numero uno. IDK if I should wait longer than 1 month before getting back on it though.
Hyde
Legend
You’re starting to understand why we choose different compounds for different goals.
If you aren’t going to use it daily, it will probably be alright to use UltraHard then because it creates no estrogen, or progesterone receptor interaction. This helps limit the impact and Epiandrosterone and Androsterone are very mild hormones. But bloodwork is the only way to truly know where you are at.
Heavy cotton tee with logos/print on the back can make a good difference, and I NEVER bench in comfy/blend shirts.
An actual grip shirt can work well too, but I wouldn’t buy one before just using bands obviously.
Dustin07
Legend
What do you feel is the biggest risk of overuse on the epi/andro from UH?
I can't prove dermacrine had a negative impact but based upon my experience cutting it changed some things for the better.
When I decided to cut UH for April 1 I hadn't noticed any atrophy downstairs but there were less fireworks.
No loss of libido and going back to some of my old faithfuls brought things back already.
If I could hit UH extra hard for 4-6 weeks.... That would be awesome. The only "side effect" I experienced was incredibly minor and I'm definitely the only person who noticed lol
Hyde
Legend
Negative impact to lipids (androsterone allegedly is positive for them, but Epiandro definitely isn’t), competition with estrogen means less IGF1, total anabolism, & collagen synthesis. So on its own, poor for growth (and you can see how that lines up with cutting and trying to produce a tighter drier look).
Eventually it’s still going to suppress your endogenous test, so that’s a real consideration as well. It may not aromatize or agonize the PR, but it’s still exogenous hormones that will start to throw things off.
Dustin07
Legend
Knowing my aversion to pinning at the moment, and my willingness to play with TDs (more like excitement), do you have any opinion on what might be an ideal cutting stack for me in May?
I'm thinking I'd like to take one month hard core to even out the last 8 months of surplus eating, get my cardio back up because a small part of me misses it. I have some thoughts in my head on what my strength training will be since I'll be looking to preserve and not trash my system for a month. I also DM'd Steve since it seems like I could likely build a stack around his products.
I was thinking of this (obviously much of it is daily regiment anyways)
Creatine HCI
Pump Addict
An Epi product since I had a great time on it
Alpha GPC
Carnitine
CLA
Maybe a thermo/fat burner.
this part I'm a little confused about because I feel like some of my best sessions were on UH. although that could have been in my head. I did gain more strength and size on dermacrine but my energy on UH was amazing.
Hyde
Legend
Ultra Hard. Based on your desires, UH is a fine choice.
When I say poor for growth, I mean if you had 30 days to gain as much weight as possible to win 1 million dollars, would you take Dermacrine or UltraHard? Would you eat at a surplus or restrict?
But growth isn’t the goal. Lean muscle retention while you shed fat is your expressed goal. So having a dry anabolic there makes sense.
Strength progress is still possible, and sometimes muscle when steroids are involved, but we’re talking about the focus of things.
Dustin07
Legend
ah yes without a doubt even with my limited experience Dermacrine was the bees knees for quick strength AND size goals. And I even took that slower than I should have, experimenting with half doses but by the end I had even gained weight from the 4 pump into the 5 pump weight class
I absolutely did love dermacrine for sure. Great feelings and strength progress.
akboom87
Well-known member
Did you run out the full bottle already, I don’t remember how many you ordered when you started.ah yes without a doubt even with my limited experience Dermacrine was the bees knees for quick strength AND size goals. And I even took that slower than I should have, experimenting with half doses but by the end I had even gained weight from the 4 pump into the 5 pump weight class
I absolutely did love dermacrine for sure. Great feelings and strength progress.
Dustin07
Legend
Started beginning of feb on the dermacrine with some space in between due to a trip I took with my wife. then UH all of March, there was some overlap. the dermacrine I started with like half dose and worked my way up. The UH I only took prewo. I have probably 1/4 bottle of dermacrine left somehow, and about 1/2 bottle of my UH left despite taking 5 pumps prewo for a month.
I was going to keep running the UH until mid april or until it ran out but using April 1 as a marker was an easier way for me to remember changes to my supplemental routine and I really wanted to figure out why my damn nipples were waking me up in the middle of the night so itchy. so I removed all supps for about 5 days and the only one I've brought back aside from other normal herbal stuff is the anabolic XT. The only reason I cut that for a few days was cause even after I had no dermacrine for a month, no UH for a few days, I had full dose+ of anabolic XT and woke up scratching my chest in the middle of the night. after a few days of no itching, I brought back the AXT.
akboom87
Well-known member
Did you get back on the fish oil? I remember you said you ran out and you are up in the north west dry air. Just curious, sounds like it treated you well!!
on a side note years ago I was in walla walla for a month was there to work on a wind turbine that got damaged up on some god forsaken ridge. That was a interesting town
on a side note years ago I was in walla walla for a month was there to work on a wind turbine that got damaged up on some god forsaken ridge. That was a interesting town
Dustin07
Legend
Did you get back on the fish oil? I remember you said you ran out and you are up in the north west dry air. Just curious, sounds like it treated you well!!
on a side note years ago I was in walla walla for a month was there to work on a wind turbine that got damaged up on some god forsaken ridge. That was a interesting town
yes I love it, fishoil always has a great effect on me. my wife had randomly picked me up some barlenes which is cheap but I take a triple dose cause it has a low content profile. however I admit it's the hardest thing for me to be consistent with because it sits in the fridge so its out of my normal routine. I usually finally remember at night to take it lol
Dustin07
Legend
Just logging a couple interesting articles
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RecentInvalid Link Removede bears out the fact that repeated fasting does not cause muscle loss. In a 2010 study of alternating daily fasting, patients were able to lose significant fat mass with no change in lean mass. In this schedule, subjects ate normally on feeding days and alternated that with a day of fasting. In addition, numerous metabolic benefits, such as reduced cholesterol, triglycerides, and waist circumference were noted, along with weight loss.
That's pretty wild if accurate
This implies that fasting may be up to 4 times better at preserving lean mass (according to this measure). Importantly, the fasting group lost more than double the amount of the more dangerous visceral fat.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
A 10 day fast appears safe in healthy humans. Protein loss occurs in early fast but decreases as ketogenesis increases. Fasting combined with physical activity does not negatively impact muscle function. Future studies will need to confirm these first findings.
Invalid Link Removed
RecentInvalid Link Removede bears out the fact that repeated fasting does not cause muscle loss. In a 2010 study of alternating daily fasting, patients were able to lose significant fat mass with no change in lean mass. In this schedule, subjects ate normally on feeding days and alternated that with a day of fasting. In addition, numerous metabolic benefits, such as reduced cholesterol, triglycerides, and waist circumference were noted, along with weight loss.
That's pretty wild if accurate
This implies that fasting may be up to 4 times better at preserving lean mass (according to this measure). Importantly, the fasting group lost more than double the amount of the more dangerous visceral fat.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
A 10 day fast appears safe in healthy humans. Protein loss occurs in early fast but decreases as ketogenesis increases. Fasting combined with physical activity does not negatively impact muscle function. Future studies will need to confirm these first findings.
Dustin07
Legend
Nothing new to me there
If you intend to do a long extended fast ever, always go keto prior. Makes it a bit smoother.
It was interesting to read the bit about fasting preserving 4x muscle compared to caloric deficit. I know I've said this a few times already but when I fast, I feel tighter, and instantly more filled out to lift when I refeed vs years of playing with caloric deficits where you just feel more and more diminished, flat, and weak. So reading studies that backed my personal thoughts was cool.
When you say keto, and extended fast, do you mean like 1 day of keto eating prior to a say 48hr fast?
In my head I had something more like say mon/tues thurs/fri eat normal to support lifting, high carb preWO, recovery dinner, then fast 48hrs over the weekend. (or something along those lines).
I'm basically practicing right now, planning supplements etc I think for a short May cut.
yesterdays cardio left me shockingly sore as well so I think I should get a little more cardio in this month and go harder in May.
Hyde
Legend
No sorry, I meant like if you intend anything over 3 days of fasting.
Say if you want to go an entire week for some reason. Spend 4 days prior getting into keto makes cutting off food entirely an easier transition, since the body is already running on fats.
Dustin07
Legend
that makes sense. also sounds intense.
I'm going to store that in the back of my mind, sounds like an interesting challenge.... I wonder if that might fit during a scheduled "deload" week where I just don't touch a barbell.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
What speed and incline?
Dustin07
Legend
I did 1/4 mile walk with a spanish lesson/duolingo and 1/4 mile runs inbetween lessons for a total of only 2 miles.
walking incline 5-6 speed of 2.5-2.7 because it's about the max to do spanish and not fall off the treadmill lol
runs were at 6 with incline of 1.
finished the last 1/4 mile at 3.2mph and 5.5 incline I think
I was experimenting and tbh it's crazy how sore my legs are today, I'm really really out of shape for a guy that used to do 1 mile HIIT spurts 6 mile, 6min rest, 6 min mile lol.