The Bible Study Thread

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Whiskey Steve said:
doesnt a "begining" and and "end" of "being" seem just as infeasible as no beginning and no end........just sayin
i am just putting the two concepts on the same playing field

not to me .. it seems perfectly reasonable and natural to me

when a dog dies do you think it keeps going on in someway? do you think it has a soul?

if you don't dogs obviously have some sort of emotions and intellect .. and if they can just die and be dead .. why can't humans?

by the way i'm very happy this can remain incredibly civil and i want to reiterate i respect all of you and opinions
 
Matthew D said:
Hang in there with the prayers PP... you and yours are on my prayer list tonight

TS if you ever need to talk about your sister.. I would be glad to list, I know she had to be a special lady because you sure seem to be a great one yourself..


thanks matchew:)
 
mywetnightmares said:
I was just reading your story and though it may be understandably difficult for you to recognize what may be going on, I believe that god is working through you and indirectly your sister right now. You said that you want to be someone that she would be proud of, and it sounds like you're someone anyone would be prould to be related to, hell, to even know. Because of your loss you have tried to be the best person that you can, think of how many lives you've touched through the charities, the teaching, the special Olympics. Because of your pain and it causing you to want to be someone your sister would have been proud of, you have acted in a truly selfless manner, through your pain you have brought many others joy. And in all the physical suffering you've gone through you haven't been like, "oh **** it, if I'm gonna be in this much pain, then I don't care about anyone else and whatever pain they're in." There are many people out there that in you're situation would turn inward and look out only for themselves, butit seems that you've done the opposite. I know it may hurt now, but just keep believing and maybe one day you can find the peace that you have brought to so many other through your work.


thank you for that..:)
 
glenihan said:
not to me .. it seems perfectly reasonable and natural to me

when a dog dies do you think it keeps going on in someway? do you think it has a soul?

if you don't dogs obviously have some sort of emotions and intellect .. and if they can just die and be dead .. why can't humans?

by the way i'm very happy this can remain incredibly civil and i want to reiterate i respect all of you and opinions

Ya bro, were just throwing our thoughts out there for others to consider.....no one will win in this discussion because it isnt a competition

as for the dog thing some religious scholars do believe that animals have an afterlife.......
others believe that this world is set up with everything we need to survive and animals serve as food and methods of transportation ect.
where im going with this is that in my christian way of thinking you cannot compare a dog to a human because they are in essence a "prop" in this play like setting we call earth where we have been sent to experince good and evil, get a body, marry and have children (which are sealed to us in the temple in mormonism), and die. At which point we will be resurected and our body will be cealed to us forever (you cannot die)
 
glenihan said:
not to me .. it seems perfectly reasonable and natural to me

when a dog dies do you think it keeps going on in someway? do you think it has a soul?

if you don't dogs obviously have some sort of emotions and intellect .. and if they can just die and be dead .. why can't humans?

by the way i'm very happy this can remain incredibly civil and i want to reiterate i respect all of you and opinions
No offense but your mind can actually grasp the concept of ceasing to be. You think you will not be able to think lol (the lol is not at you)
That concept is not feesible in my mind......i dont know how you can separate the "no beginning/no end" and "beginning/end" in terms of being able to comprehended them ........... in the mortal mind
 
Glenihan, here's an interesting quotefrom Dr.Michael Denton who works in molecular genetics , from the University of Otago in New Zealand, has concluded that "All the evidence available in the biological sciences suppports the core proposition.... that the cosmos is a specially designed whole with life and mankind as its fundamental goal and purpose, a whole in which all facets of reality have their meaning and explaination in this central fact."

Basically what he is saying is that the universe was created by intelligent design, God. More and more scientist all over the world are coming to the conclusion that science cannot explain the universe. The reason your brain cannot wrap itself around this idea is that all we see is a three dimensional reality. If you can't feel ,see, touch or hear it, it must not exist. But the truth, my friend, is that if you just look around, you can see God everywhere.

At your age, a lot of people question the existance of God. But, my prediction for you is in the not too distant future, you will find Him and He is waiting for you.
 
At first I was raised around an Evangelical church. My Grandma required we attend Sun. school at a small church.

Then about 8 years old I went to a private school where Catholicism was the religion of choice for 9 years.

I was Baptised Episcopalian after 3 years of sobriety.

I moved from Atheist to agnostic to believer many times in my life. At this point in my life there is no doubt of a GOD. Not based on belief or doctrine or dogma. But on actual experience.

I suffered for years with alcoholism and drug addiction. Going from Metaphyics to Crystals to New Age to
Buddhism to Hinduism to ACIM to Native American and anything in between. Never once slowing down and allowing THE CREATIVE INTELLIGENCE of the Universe to guide and direct me. To give me the answer to what I was seeking. PEACE!

I didn`t find it, it found me. All the running I had done simply made it possible for me to see I COULDN`T DO IT! It wasn`t till surrender came and acceptance took hold that the "Peace beyond all understanding" came to be in my life.

To try and explain my "Moment of sanity" would be useless. Those that have had it already know. But there was a presence in the room... that told me what to do. I followed, it led.
All things and I mean all things that stood in the way of my life changing
where swept away. My job was a major problem. Drugs, alcohol and the exceptance of it were prevalent.
16 days into my 28 day stay in Rehab
a call came to my house about a job.
One I never applied for. When I called and said I couldn`t interview for 2 weeks. "No problem, we will wait for you because of your recommendation." **** I was a drunk who missed more work than he made and someone recommended me!:blink:

On and on things happened... I won`t bore you with the details of each thing. But whatever I needed appeared in due time. I just made my self available and the "Majic" happened.

If anything science PROVES the existance of a CREATIVE INTELLIGNECE (GOD). There is absolutely no way all this (The Universe) happened by mere accident.-JMHO
 
Whiskey Steve said:
No offense but your mind can actually grasp the concept of ceasing to be. You think you will not be able to think lol (the lol is not at you)
That concept is not feesible in my mind......i dont know how you can separate the "no beginning/no end" and "beginning/end" in terms of being able to comprehended them ........... in the mortal mind

honestly yes .. i would just cease to exist .. brain function would end and life would end
 
AFOX said:
Glenihan, here's an interesting quotefrom Dr.Michael Denton who works in molecular genetics , from the University of Otago in New Zealand, has concluded that "All the evidence available in the biological sciences suppports the core proposition.... that the cosmos is a specially designed whole with life and mankind as its fundamental goal and purpose, a whole in which all facets of reality have their meaning and explaination in this central fact."

Basically what he is saying is that the universe was created by intelligent design, God. More and more scientist all over the world are coming to the conclusion that science cannot explain the universe. The reason your brain cannot wrap itself around this idea is that all we see is a three dimensional reality. If you can't feel ,see, touch or hear it, it must not exist. But the truth, my friend, is that if you just look around, you can see God everywhere.

At your age, a lot of people question the existance of God. But, my prediction for you is in the not too distant future, you will find Him and He is waiting for you.

well i'd have to see what "proof" he has of intelligent design

as i stated before everything was inexplicable at one time .. the moving stars in the sky .. the rising sun .. the tides .. etc. but they have all been explained

just because science cannot currently explain something does not mean there isn't a natural explanation

as for your last statement i truly disagree .. i really doubt that i will ever believe in a supernatural power .. its not my way nor do i foresee it ever becoming .. as i said i've been an ardent atheist for over 10 years .. while i know i am still young i have thought about this issues and debated them very often and i always come back to the same conclusion
 
EEmain said:
If anything science PROVES the existance of a CREATIVE INTELLIGNECE (GOD). There is absolutely no way all this (The Universe) happened by mere accident.-JMHO


my view on this is that the universe has been around for approximately 15 billion years (according to accepted science) and as far as we KNOW earth is the only planet with intelligent life

given the millions of other planets in the universe the odds are that intelligent life WILL occur on at least one of them (i do believe advanced society exists elsewhere in the universe .. odds are it probably does)

it seems like the randomness of the universe would allow for this to happen .. at least in my view
 
Just wanted to comment, that this is a great thread and much respected to all around, that this is so calm and a discussion! I read this topic too many times on BB.com with all kinds of nonsense.

I believe in god. I can't really explain why, i just feel like he is there.

I was raised in a Christian family. So I have a strong foundation of where my beliefs came from. I just don't believe the entire bible is fact thats my only qualm with my faith. I loved reading it however, I just find it more of a guide of how to live then a literal translation.
 
glenihan said:
well i'd have to see what "proof" he has of intelligent design

as i stated before everything was inexplicable at one time .. the moving stars in the sky .. the rising sun .. the tides .. etc. but they have all been explained

just because science cannot currently explain something does not mean there isn't a natural explanation

as for your last statement i truly disagree .. i really doubt that i will ever believe in a supernatural power .. its not my way nor do i foresee it ever becoming .. as i said i've been an ardent atheist for over 10 years .. while i know i am still young i have thought about this issues and debated them very often and i always come back to the same conclusion
Have you ever tried to hold a magnet and get another magnet to just float in the air by perfectly balancing the magnetic pull. (I know for a fact that you have not and you never will)
There are nine planets in out solar system surrounding the sun. Each are engaged in an impossibly perfect magnetic balancing act around the sun. Furthermore earth just happens to be at a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life.
If evolution were true then think of the countless trillions of planets there would have to be with sub-perfect life sustaining conditions. Now we would have to pray (to the God which doesnt exist in this scenario) that one of these handicaped earths doesn't bump into our solar system and screw everthing up.......
There are so many vairables like the one with our planets courses surrounding earth that the possibility of our earth existing is literally one in infinity. And just because there is a probability number doesnt mean that one will ever come to pass. If you flip a coin ten times, it is probable that you will get heads five times. But you may get all tails...... In the probability of earth however you are flipping a coin with an infinite (damn near) amount of sides
 
glenihan said:
my view on this is that the universe has been around for approximately 15 billion years (according to accepted science) and as far as we KNOW earth is the only planet with intelligent life

given the millions of other planets in the universe the odds are that intelligent life WILL occur on at least one of them (i do believe advanced society exists elsewhere in the universe .. odds are it probably does)

it seems like the randomness of the universe would allow for this to happen .. at least in my view

Point taken. Two sides of the same coin ... random(chaos) vs. methodical(order).

However I am not talking Intelligent lifeforms as we know it. But one driving force that causes all to be. With an opposite. Which tends to be just the absence of itself.

Order from chaos or chaos from order both hint at direction(a guiding hand so to speak) not chance.
 
This is an awesome thread. The fact it has remained on topic and civil is truly a testament to the board and its members both believers and non.

I believe in God for sure. There is no question in my mind that I live today by the grace of god. For years my life was a total mess. I was a burden to everyone and hated life. I was a complete slave to drugs and alcohol. I have been sober for over 15 years now and I know that is only God that allowed that. I have seen so many others fall by the wayside including my ex wife. I am far from "reliqious" and dont participate in organized religion.

I have to say this thread is POWERFULL. I am stuck in a hotel traveling on business and for some resaon this thread actually had tears streaming down my face. I cant tell you exactly why .......I guess its just powerfull to me to see you all open up and share your testimony. God bless you all.

PP and tc you will be in my prayers..........and tc I know how hard it can be to see the purpose of it all.........I will pray that you have the strengh to make it and the wisdom to understand it all someday should he choose to reveal it all to you.
 
50joe said:
Just wanted to comment, that this is a great thread and much respected to all around, that this is so calm and a discussion! I read this topic too many times on BB.com with all kinds of nonsense.

I believe in god. I can't really explain why, i just feel like he is there.

I was raised in a Christian family. So I have a strong foundation of where my beliefs came from. I just don't believe the entire bible is fact thats my only qualm with my faith. I loved reading it however, I just find it more of a guide of how to live then a literal translation.

Ah yes! My struggle also. Is the Bible infact The unadulterated word of GOD. Or does man, as is his want, leave his fingerprints all over it?
 
50joe said:
Just wanted to comment, that this is a great thread and much respected to all around, that this is so calm and a discussion! I read this topic too many times on BB.com with all kinds of nonsense.

I believe in god. I can't really explain why, i just feel like he is there.

I was raised in a Christian family. So I have a strong foundation of where my beliefs came from. I just don't believe the entire bible is fact thats my only qualm with my faith. I loved reading it however, I just find it more of a guide of how to live then a literal translation.
As far as my stance on the Bible, I believe with all my heart that EVERYTHING in it is litteral and can also be aplied metaphorically to every aspect of our lives. I think as soon as you discount some of it as non literal (events in it and whatever) then you quickly slip into a belief where the whole thing is just a fable.
no attack
 
glenihan, i would beg you with all my might to read "The Power of the Subconscious Mind" by Joseph Murphy.
It puts thoughts into a tangible subject (very cool). It discusses subjects such as spiritual creation and scientific prayer.
It also explains why all types of religions have healed people. Its not the particular God they are believing in that heals them but the fact that they believe it will cure them.
It explains faith better than anything i have ever read or heard. It talks about how we are all connected etc....
i cant urge you enough to read it, i could be (i think will be) the most important book you will ever read.
 
glenihan said:
my view on this is that the universe has been around for approximately 15 billion years (according to accepted science) and as far as we KNOW earth is the only planet with intelligent life

given the millions of other planets in the universe the odds are that intelligent life WILL occur on at least one of them (i do believe advanced society exists elsewhere in the universe .. odds are it probably does)

it seems like the randomness of the universe would allow for this to happen .. at least in my view


True, but even still... tha clincher for me has always been that even if we started as cells or a cell, or a grain of salt or whatever it still had to come from somewhere... somehow. Personally, I can't fathom it all by chance. Tha universe is far too vast, and tha body is far too complex to think we all just got that damn lucky.
 
EEmain said:
Ah yes! My struggle also. Is the Bible infact The unadulterated word of GOD. Or does man, as is his want, leave his fingerprints all over it?


I think so... but if I'm wrong, it'll be a delightful mistake on one side. On tha other, a disappointing one too as I believe only good things come from God.
 
AFOX said:
The reason your brain cannot wrap itself around this idea is that all we see is a three dimensional reality. If you can't feel ,see, touch or hear it, it must not exist. But the truth, my friend, is that if you just look around, you can see God everywhere.

At your age, a lot of people question the existance of God. But, my prediction for you is in the not too distant future, you will find Him and He is waiting for you.

Good post
 
Whiskey Steve said:
As far as my stance on the Bible, I believe with all my heart that EVERYTHING in it is litteral and can also be aplied metaphorically to every aspect of our lives. I think as soon as you discount some of it as non literal (events in it and whatever) then you quickly slip into a belief where the whole thing is just a fable.
no attack

don't worry didn't take it as an attack :)

I get what you're saying but I don't feel that way about it. I mean, I can believe some of it is a fable, but also that some is true. I have no problem personally with a concept like that.

I just think, being written by man, that it has been touched by his hand in some way. But that's my belief, there is no way to prove me wrong, no way to prove me right. ( or i think anyway:rofl: ) I never started questioning it until a couple of years ago.... I still have a strong faith and that will never change, just the finer workings of religion are what puzzles me.
 
glenihan said:
as for your last statement i truly disagree .. i really doubt that i will ever believe in a supernatural power .. its not my way nor do i foresee it ever becoming .. as i said i've been an ardent atheist for over 10 years .. while i know i am still young i have thought about this issues and debated them very often and i always come back to the same conclusion

Don't say "never" you don't know. Only year ago I was the same way you are, see how things change.
Explain me this. How some people can see things normal people can't? God, angels, demons, people in heaven. Are they lying about it or they mentally ill? Am I too?
Ever heard too many kids can see all of the above? Kids don't lie...
My girlfriends daughter said few months ago:"I remember being inside of you, Mom, Somebody (God?) sent me to you and said she going to take care of you.
 
I like this. It's good to question beliefs because from most of my experiences, doing so has left me more empowered then before...
 
50joe said:
don't worry didn't take it as an attack :)

I get what you're saying but I don't feel that way about it. I mean, I can believe some of it is a fable, but also that some is true. I have no problem personally with a concept like that.

I just think, being written by man, that it has been touched by his hand in some way. But that's my belief, there is no way to prove me wrong, no way to prove me right. ( or i think anyway:rofl: ) I never started questioning it until a couple of years ago.... I still have a strong faith and that will never change, just the finer workings of religion are what puzzles me.
As far as man tampering with it, i know that there have been some adulterations to it. I am mormon and we have some key scriptures from the Bible that were adultered or taken out that were revealed to Joseph Smith.

With the exception of changed verses I believe that the whole thing has to be true or the whole thing has to be false. And the Bible is way too historically acurate etc to be false.

one example off the top of my head is in ST MATTHEW chapter 27 verse 5. the standard version is " And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. The Joseph Smith Translation version of the verse goes: ".....and hanged himself on a tree. And straightway he fell down, and his bowels gushed out, and he died." ......this scripture change doesnt have a major significance but it is still there....we other changes on things that do matter but i cant think of them right now


Again, I am mormon so please, if you have any questions feel free to ask
 
wow you go study for a few hours and there's like 50 new posts

whiskey-i'll check out that book .. but not for a few weeks i'm in law school and its finals time

regarding what created that spec? .. i ask what created god

why do people see angels, etc.?

well scientists have said that when people think they are seeing the light when they are dying its actually just an overfunctioning of one part of the brain

i'm sure a lot of people who claimed to have seen god are in fact lying, i'm sure some confused dreams with reality, kids can be convinced of a lot of things (kids accuse their parents of molesting them and believe it but it was just from coaching) .. other people genuinely believe they saw these things and i'm sure each has his/her own reason for that be it confusion/delusion or something pretty reasonable ... but i don't see how any of these things can possible exist

i may have missed a few points people brought up and i'm sorry
 
glenihan said:
wow you go study for a few hours and there's like 50 new posts

whiskey-i'll check out that book .. but not for a few weeks i'm in law school and its finals time

regarding what created that spec? .. i ask what created god

why do people see angels, etc.?

well scientists have said that when people think they are seeing the light when they are dying its actually just an overfunctioning of one part of the brain

i'm sure a lot of people who claimed to have seen god are in fact lying, i'm sure some confused dreams with reality, kids can be convinced of a lot of things (kids accuse their parents of molesting them and believe it but it was just from coaching) .. other people genuinely believe they saw these things and i'm sure each has his/her own reason for that be it confusion/delusion or something pretty reasonable ... but i don't see how any of these things can possible exist

i may have missed a few points people brought up and i'm sorry
I know that scientists can now simulate a "dying" experience in a lab. I believe it is something programmed into our mind much like puberty.

I realize that people have lied about seeing angels and such things but consider this.
There are people who can squat 1000 pounds; i could lie and tell you that i can too. Does this mean the guy who really did didn't.
What im trying to say is dont discredit all spirtual testimonys/experiences just because some have made some up.
 
i don't believe they are all "made up" .. i think a lot of people GENUINELY GENUINELY believe they did see an angel, etc. ... i just think they are all wrong .. this really is not meant as offense to anyone .. i seriously hope no one is bothered by my statements .. if i am offending anyone just let me know
 
I'm also an atheist, since I was 13. I was raised catholic, went to mass, sunday school, etc. I always had a lot of questions. I remember being 7 and asking my mother what was on the other side of the end of the universe, lol. I started reading my father's philosophy books and I guess that's when I really started questioning my beliefs.
It's not that I don't want to believe in a god - it's that I CAN'T. It's just not there, and I can't help it. I explained it to one of my friends like this: "Imagine me telling you, 'You're simply wrong; there is no god, you just don't know it yet.' You would know that I was the one who was wrong. That's how I feel when you tell me I'm wrong for being an atheist."
Whiskey Steve, your questions regarding right and wrong decisions were kind of alarming! The law stops me from smoking grass for fear of losing my kids; love and compassion stops me from harming people and animals. Respect for others stops me from stealing. Someone who is only restrained from killing others (w/out an appropriate situation, mind you) by the law or their religion is one scary person!

I have the utmost respect for other's beliefs, and very rarely talk about mine. This is a great, thought-provoking thread. I didn't mean to get OT, just saw that glenihan fessed up and thought I should too. Carry on!

glenihan said:
although i'm an ardent atheist and have been since i was roughly 12 (and i can't ever see myself changing my mind on that) this is a fun thread to read with a lot of knowledgable people contributing

i never judge another's faith and well done on an interesting thread
 
intv said:
I'm also an atheist, since I was 13. I was raised catholic, went to mass, sunday school, etc. I always had a lot of questions. I remember being 7 and asking my mother what was on the other side of the end of the universe, lol. I started reading my father's philosophy books and I guess that's when I really started questioning my beliefs.
It's not that I don't want to believe in a god - it's that I CAN'T. It's just not there, and I can't help it. I explained it to one of my friends like this: "Imagine me telling you, 'You're simply wrong; there is no god, you just don't know it yet.' You would know that I was the one who was wrong. That's how I feel when you tell me I'm wrong for being an atheist."
Whiskey Steve, your questions regarding right and wrong decisions were kind of alarming! The law stops me from smoking grass for fear of losing my kids; love and compassion stops me from harming people and animals. Respect for others stops me from stealing. Someone who is only restrained from killing others (w/out an appropriate situation, mind you) by the law or their religion is one scary person!

I have the utmost respect for other's beliefs, and very rarely talk about mine. This is a great, thought-provoking thread. I didn't mean to get OT, just saw that glenihan fessed up and thought I should too. Carry on!
I was just offering a scenario where i would be lawless......

But in reality:
In my life i do not need laws to be civil. If there was no law my behavior would be no diffent than it is now.
Its not a "will i get caught scenario" because i know that God sees all and knows all and everything you do is recorded in "The Lambs Book of Life".

I would also like to quote the lepar king on kindom of heaven. He said ("Kings may be the keeper of your body, but you are the keeper of your soul. When you come before God you cannot say "i was told to do so" or "virtue was not convenient at the time" for this will not suffice.)
 
I have heard from an athiest friend of mine that scientists have discovered that the earth has only been in existence for even a fraction of the time that would be necessary for us to evolve from monkeys.....can anyone verify this study (he is a very reliable source but i still thought id ask)
 
well the claim is that the earth is 4-6 billion years old .. that seems like enough time to me but i'm certainly not a scientist .. everything i've ever seen or read about evolution seems to purport that this is plenty of time ...
 
One of the most difficult things I have ever done is speak to atheists and evolutionists regarding their beliefs. So many have such a staunch stand on their beliefs and are completely unwilling to admit that they may be wrong. Of course, the same could be said of me and many Christians, but that is beside the point.
I will submit that the only true proof of God that any one person can offer is themselves. It has been said that “you are the only Bible some people will ever read,” and it’s true. Most people will only come to know God by bearing witness to the changing power He displays in someone’s life. B5150 makes it abundantly clear through his testimony of the indescribable power of God and His ability to change someone forever.

There is a man who has been going to my church for longer than I’ve been alive. His name is Roger Bowman. Some years ago he felt God calling him to be a missionary to Mexico. Every now and then, when he is financially able, he returns to our church to visit friends and sometimes to share what God has been doing in his ministry. I remember a few years ago he came and delivered a message. He told us a story about how one day he was witnessing to some people in their home and someone from the church he built found him at that person’s home and asked him to rush to a church. Along the way the man who picked him up was silent. When he arrived at the church he knew something was very wrong before he even went inside. As he approached the door he began to hear the screaming within and the rattling of the walls. He opened the door to find the inside in total disarray. People were crying and praying, pews were flying around the room, the walls were shaking, and a little girl was floating some eight feet or so off the ground near the pulpit. Her head was flung back at a terrifying angle, her back bent backwards, and her arms stretched out. He said that from her mouth came the most horrifying voice, deeper and more surreal than anything he could describe.

Now, I know that that story may seem like a fairy tale to you, Glen, or perhaps to many here. But I’d bet every thing I own and my life that he told the absolute truth. He’s just not one to lie.

I keep certain website links in my signature that support some of my arguments against evolution – and concordantly, atheism, as the two are inextricably linked. But most times it seems to me that my arguments are completely fruitless, like I’m casting my seeds on stony ground. All I can say to you, Glen, is that you must admit that there is a possibility that you’re wrong. And if you could be wrong, what consequences do you then face? I’d much sooner put my faith and trust in an “inprovable,” seemingly imaginary God that daily displays His awesome power directly in my life than in perpetually fallible man. There are many things in this world that science accepts as being true without any proof whatsoever (such as evolution). Take every thing for instance. What is every thing made of? Many will say that on the most fundamental level every thing is made of energy. Well, what is energy made of? And what is that made of? You see how it continues indefinitely? Well, science will never be able to see down to the smallest thing and simply must accept – on faith – that everything must be made of something.

If science hasn’t even proven evolution to be true, yet continues to accept its validity by faith, then why is it so impossible to accept God by faith? At least you can see and feel God working. If man is right and evolution is proven to be the origin of all life on this planet, then when you and I die I lose nothing and you gain nothing (save perhaps the fleeting pride of a victorious argument). But if we Christians are right, then when you and I die we share much different fates. Think about it.
 
well crownedone i most certainly could be wrong, i'll be the first to admit that .. no question

evolution is fairly closed to being completely explained and i believe over time further discoveries will confirm it ..

as for what you're saying "what if crownedone is right and glen is wrong?" ... well i have little doubt that your faith in god has NOTHING to do with a fear of going to hell if you are wrong

however i think it would be the WORST possible reason for someone to believe in god simply because "well if i'm wrong i don't wanna go to hell" .. i know if i was god i would hate those people that believed in me soley out of fear
 
TheCrownedOne said:
If science hasn’t even proven evolution to be true, yet continues to accept its validity by faith, then why is it so impossible to accept God by faith? At least you can see and feel God working. If man is right and evolution is proven to be the origin of all life on this planet, then when you and I die I lose nothing and you gain nothing (save perhaps the fleeting pride of a victorious argument). But if we Christians are right, then when you and I die we share much different fates. Think about it.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Interesting read.
Just this last paragraph, are you saying you believe that those who doubt creationism share a different fate then those who have faith in it?
 
"If man is right and evolution is proven to be the origin of all life on this planet, then when you and I die I lose nothing and you gain nothing (save perhaps the fleeting pride of a victorious argument). But if we Christians are right, then when you and I die we share much different fates. Think about it."

Again, this is where I think you lose some Stephen... scare tactics.

What is tha point of accepting God out of fear?
Nothing is gained because you are still doing it unwillingly.

It has to come from tha heart. I truely believe thats what God wants.
 
Whiskey Steve said:
Have you ever tried to hold a magnet and get another magnet to just float in the air by perfectly balancing the magnetic pull. (I know for a fact that you have not and you never will)
There are nine planets in out solar system surrounding the sun. Each are engaged in an impossibly perfect magnetic balancing act around the sun. Furthermore earth just happens to be at a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life.
If evolution were true then think of the countless trillions of planets there would have to be with sub-perfect life sustaining conditions. Now we would have to pray (to the God which doesnt exist in this scenario) that one of these handicaped earths doesn't bump into our solar system and screw everthing up.......
There are so many vairables like the one with our planets courses surrounding earth that the possibility of our earth existing is literally one in infinity. And just because there is a probability number doesnt mean that one will ever come to pass. If you flip a coin ten times, it is probable that you will get heads five times. But you may get all tails...... In the probability of earth however you are flipping a coin with an infinite (damn near) amount of sides


Actually, if you study advanced physics, you'll learn there is an astoundingly large bit of leeway as far as maintaining an orbit around a massive object.

As for magnets, I've done that. In fact, my entire highschool AP physics class did that. We took two magnets and suspended one over the other in mid-air. It was a lab experiment. One was a regular magnet, the other was an electromagnet. We adjusted the current going through the electromagnet until the top magnet could be suspended. By measuring the distance between the two, and the current running through the electromagnet, would could figure out the exact charge on the second magnet.



As you may have guessed, I'm of Glen's mindset. I was once a devout Catholic, but have since come to my own personal realisation that there is no higher power.

For me, it seems far more plausible that the universe itself was never created, that it simply has always existed. As for "life after death" I can't say for sure, because we do not know all that makes up life, and much of physics and science is yet to be explored. For all we know, there may be more to our brains than just the matter it is made up of. There could be exotic energies which persist after the death of the biological organism.

All just speculation, and I hold it to be highly unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

As for fathoming what it would be like to not exist, that's easy. What was it like before you were born? Don't remember? Exactly the point. You won't know, you won't care, you won't feel. You won't .... anything.


As for the concept of living forever, it is a concept that is qually impossible to physically comprehend. People may claim to, but really they are just giving it a word, not understanding it. Your brain PHYSICALLY CANNOT comprehend infinity. It's simply not possible. Just as your brain physically cannot comprehend nothingness. Your brain can think really big, or really small, but never infinity, and never zero. This is why those two numbers were the last to ever be defined (though note that infinity is still less frequently understood than zero).


As for earth being the perfect distance to sustain life, believe it or not, there is a very high chance that life exists outside earth but within our own solar system. Mars has a high liklihood for bacterial life, and it is believed it once had a more temperate climate.

Even more promising is Europa, a moon of Jupiter. Europa is covered in a moon-wide ocean. The surface is completely iced over. HOWEVER, probes have detected volcanic activity beneath the ice which has caused fissures in the surface. The only reason you don't hear a lot more about Europa is for one it takes a very long time to get there, two, we don't know if we have the technology to land on it, 3 even if we did, we wouldn't crack the ice which is many meters thick, and 4, the probably for life is so high there is ethical debate as to whether or not we want to disturb it.

Then there's Titan. Titan is very cold. Really friggin cold. Yet, many believe an entirely different form of life may exist there. Life on earth is based on water. Life on Titan, if it exists, is based on methane. Water has a triple point on earth, something not common. Having a triple point means it can exist as a solid, liquid, and vapor all around the same narrow temperature band. This is what makes life possible here on earth. Methane has a triple point on Titan. There are oceans of methane on Titan, the caps are covered in frozen methane, and there are methane clouds which condense and rain down liquid methane on the land on Titan. Just like earth only instead of water, there's methane. It is unknown what such life would look like or be structured like, but the possibility exists.
 
i kind of feel bad as i suppose i accidently turned a thread dedicated to bible study into an atheist/theist debate .. would anyone prefer that this become a separate thread and this thread return to its original purpose?

i'm really enjoying the thread as it is now, but it has kind of strayed
 
glenihan said:
i kind of feel bad as i suppose i accidently turned a thread dedicated to bible study into an atheist/theist debate .. would anyone prefer that this become a separate thread and this thread return to its original purpose?

i'm really enjoying the thread as it is now, but it has kind of strayed


I certainly don't mind. It hasn't become a flame war, we all seem to be very respectful. In fact, I'm learning a great deal and that was part of it's original intent.

However, it would be nice to hear more personal testimony from those that do believe.
 
Just want to say i really appreacite the respect from both sides on this thread. Just a few weeks ago i wrote this email to my dad on the frustrations of being a "Christian" (I helped in a Christian campus org last year), here is a part of it:

I’m tired of being associated with a hypocritical organization, I just want to be a follower of Christ, but not a “Christian”. It’s so frustrating how some Christians can’t get along because they interpret things differently. Why are so many Christians insistent on having the “Holier than Thou” attitude? How is it possible for us to explain the gospel and how we are saved not by our own actions but by Gods grace, and at the same time have this destructive mind-set that we are better than others? It boggles my mind, and I don’t blame people one bit for criticizing Christians so intensely for that. I understand we are fallible man, and that I need to disassociate mans shortcomings with Gods perfection, but all that I have said bothers me to the point of turning beet red with anger....
Anyway, like i said its very refreshing to see believers express their views without damaging the name of Jesus and bashing others of different beliefs. Even though i believe there is only one way to God, i will respect, love, and be friendly with all those who disagree with me whole heartily, and hopefully represent Jesus in a constructive and positive way.

EDIT: I thought i would also put part of my dads response, this is all kind of personal stuff but thought it might be possible for someone to benifit from it:

Hey son, Great email. Your third paragraph especially has a lot of great questions. You have articulated many of my own frustrations very well. I have been a Christian since February of 1972 (over 33 years, wow) and have been wound up ‘round the axle over these same issues for many of those years. I’ll make you a deal; we’ll discuss this as friends and not as dad/son so we can talk about it without that layer of emotion. As I’ve told you in the past, I’m not worried about you, just concerned for your peace, joy and happiness in life. I have the same concerns for your sisters, not because I’m worried about their spiritual condition but because I love each of you and want the best for you. I know that God has all of you in the palm of His hand and will not let you wander away. In fact, I’m convinced that your frustration with the body of Christ is a healthy and productive pool to swim in. It sharpens us and hones our ability to see hypocrisy as long as it doesn’t quench the fire of service to Jesus. It shapes our thinking so we can be more effective. It also forces us to lift our eyes to God because looking at men and women around us brings so much pain and anguish.

You have articulated some questions that none of us can adequately answer here on this side of heaven. The great divide between earth and heaven is a chasm so deep and wide that we are incapable of fully understanding this quandary we are in. We are told in the word of God that as followers of Christ we are to be involved in body life; in fact we are intrinsically linked to other “Christians” as arms, legs, etc. of the same body. How then are we to function when other members of our body are cancerous at times? Here are my observations about the takeaway regarding these types of issues.

1. God often places us in situations that are stressful and uncomfortable because He wants us to learn an important lesson that we’ll need in the future. When
God told David he would be the next king of Israel it was 12 years before David ascended to the throne. The 12 year gap in fulfillment of that blessing was to give God time to shape David’s character and train him for the work God had for him. During those 12 years King Saul chased David around Israel trying to kill him. David clearly saw an example of what not to be. I believe God does the same with us today when He allows us to experience the “King Sauls” of our life.
2. Psalms 3:3 say that God is the “lifter of our heads”. After experiencing day after day of disappointment with other Christians, we are ultimately forced to lift our head to the heavens and focus on God as the only one who will not disappoint. I hope to ask God some day why He designed the church the way He did. It
seems so imperfect to me yet God being God means that it’s exactly the way it’s supposed to be. God gently puts His finger under our chin and lifts our head so we are gazing upon His grace and mercy, not focusing on the disappointments around us. Start each morning and finish each day son by lifting your eyes to God. As often as possible during the day lift your eyes to the Lord, He will keep you centered on the things that matter most.
3. It ultimately forces us to aspire to the highest possible standards for our own life to avoid hypocrisy while giving the most possible grace to others as we view
their weaknesses and failures.
4. It helps us more fully understand and appreciate the fact that we each soil the reputation of Christ each time we fail to measure up yet see that Christ is still
madly in love with us. Jesus above all has every reason to be angry, frustrated and embarrassed by us yet He chooses to lovingly accept us in spite of our
failures. I think a deeper level of spirituality in our life means that our love for the hypocrites increases exponentially to their failures. That is the example of
Christ and the reality of what He does in our lives each and every day. How can we do anything less?
 
Nullifidian said:
As for fathoming what it would be like to not exist, that's easy. What was it like before you were born? Don't remember? Exactly the point. You won't know, you won't care, you won't feel. You won't .... anything.
Its not easy to fathom you are just blocking the concept out of your mind.

We believe that a vail is placed on our mind upon birth so we will not remember being with God. The purpose of this is so that we may be accurately tested regarding our desire to do good in this life.
 
steve ... slightly off topic but are you going to on your mission (i'm sorry if that's not the proper term) in the near future? and if so any idea where you will be going?
 
I was just starting to read the beginning pages of this thread and read a post by TheCrownedOne and would now like to say something.

I have only remained respectful in an attempt to sustain conversation in this thread. I have just been trying to get people to consider such definitions as the word Being (a being always is, never something that was because at the point that you refer to it as something that was it means it no longer exists. If it no longer exists because it has died or been destroyed it is not a being. Yet atheist still refer to themselves as human beings. Please think heavily upon the specific words i have mentioned in this thread.) I have been trying to at a least rattle these atheist foundations but they are not receptive and will not attempt to understand/consider. For this reason I feel I may soon withdraw from this thread.
I love the Atheist's and hate the Atheism.

I have a testimony of God, and his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost that will NEVER EVER be shaken for it is the truth. Christ is the light and the life of the world and through him all mankind will be saved.

I would like to quote a childrens song:
........try to show kindness in all that you do. Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought, for these are the things Jesus taught.
 
glenihan said:
steve ... slightly off topic but are you going to on your mission (i'm sorry if that's not the proper term) in the near future? and if so any idea where you will be going?
That funny you ask. I have been kind of iffy on it my whole life. My grandparents imigrated to the US from Denmark upon their conversion to mormonism. My father grew up here and did not serve a mission because it he could not afford it and it wasn't as emphised when he was of age.
I am eighteen and a half right now and we cant leave until we are nineteen. I have been leaning more towards not going recently but this thread has inspired me and I cant wait until i can go.
As far as knowing where we are going......pretty soon know i will fill out all the forms and stuff and send them to my church leadership and they will send back my "call". this is when i find out where i will be going.

Over the last five months I have had fourteen of my very close friends leave on there missions to various parts of the world (brazil, chile, dominican republic, spain, portugal, canada, russia, latvia, etc
 
Guys,

I really do commend all of you for the civil discussion in light of our differences. I believe we are a great testimony to a true fellowship of a community.

TheCrownedOne said:
B5150 makes it abundantly clear through his testimony of the indescribable power of God and His ability to change someone forever.
Indeed this is the case for me. I believed in God and was a Christian for many years of my 'lost years'. I accepted the salvation Christ had to offer that came with being a Christian. It was not until He became my Lord was I set free of my old man and became delivered and renewed. I often wish I could have had some 'documentation' to substantiate the old mind and the old spirit as a baseline to compare to the new mind and new spirit. There are many in my personal life that are really amazed at the transformation that took place when I truely surrendered my soul for the present and for eternity. But moreso...I am amazed at what has taken place of who I used to be. One miracle is the celebration of my 46th month sober today. I used drugs and alcohol for 25 years. This alone is the work of a divine intervention.

Again...you guys are a blessing, and to see you exchange thoughts and ideas of different views with such peace is a testiment KI and of itself.
 
glenihan said:
however i think it would be the WORST possible reason for someone to believe in god simply because "well if i'm wrong i don't wanna go to hell" .. i know if i was god i would hate those people that believed in me soley out of fear

I agree with you on this one. Although, it's not nessesary you'll go to hell because you didn't believe to God. Hell is earth and after you die your soul don't go up to the light and it'll be screaming or crying or doing something else for eternity, it's what hell is and as far as I know only people who killed themselves don't get to heaven and some who died in accident because of drugs or alcohol.
If somebody pray for them hard enough they still have a chance to get to heaven.
Hitler and Stalin are in heaven too, you know.
 
Toughchick, I prayed for you the other day and hope you'll overcome your health problems and change your mind about God, girl.
 
Perhaps I might want to try to belive in god, well scratch that I DO BELIVE IN GOD!!! but perhaps its time to not be angry at him...

This comes from my ultrasound tonight on my neck discovering 2 golf ball sized tumors or as the tech said abnormal nodules...SWEET!! so as I layed on the table, crying, (it was painful) and thinking here we go again, I decided what will be will be, and no more anger. I named my abnormal nodules (lame right) but now it's no more treatments, no more radiation, nothing....a yr, 2 or months I let "him" decide,my time is my time. And if it;s sooner than later, I can only hope to see my sister again.

Thanks for the well wishes, and advice, and the guidance in finding my way so to speak.
 
Good luck, TC, you are making right decision, I wish you the best. Did you read my responce in post #35?
 
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