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The Arachidonic Acid Help Guide

I've got chronic shoulder bursitis that flares up on occasion and wondered if ArA will cause inflammation of the bursa... If so, are there any other sup recommendations that will help control shoulder issues?
 
mmorso said:
I've got chronic shoulder bursitis that flares up on occasion and wondered if ArA will cause inflammation of the bursa... If so, are there any other sup recommendations that will help control shoulder issues?
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ArA inflammation is systemic, so I assume yes it would. That said, some people see heavy issues from the inflammation aspect, while others see nothing special in this regard.

If you do take it, just add in a joint supp like SNS joint support xt or cissus and dose it as far from your ArA as possible.
 
mmorso said:
I thought it was local and not systemic inflammation.
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Unless you're injecting it into a specific spot, how could it be local?... It's a fatty acid that is found throughout your entire body, including the brain ha
 
booneman77 said:
Unless you're injecting it into a specific spot, how could it be local?... It's a fatty acid that is found throughout your entire body, including the brain ha
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At the start of the thread, "Q2," it's explained why the inflammation ArA causes isn't bad... Apparently it's not systemic but localized inflammation from what this thread claims
 
mmorso said:
I thought it was local and not systemic inflammation.
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Best available evidence suggests that induction of intracellular oxygenase enzymes (in muscle during and after resistance training), should promote exogenous ARA active transport and passively diffusion from the serum (bound to albumin) into the muscle cell- to then act as a substrate for the desired autocrine activity.
So although after oral administration ARA should reach systemic circulation, the ultimate biotransformation to its target anabolic metabolite (PGF-2alpha) will occur within the cell at the injured/inflammatory site (muscle). Obviously there is no discrimination between tissues expressing oxygenase enzymes and there is numerous inflammatory prostanoid metabolites of ARA- so it would almost certainly augment inflammation in other tissues expressing high levels of these enzymes due to injury or disease.

**It is interesting to note, however, that research also suggests that at (lower) serum concentration, certainly achievable through oral dosing, exogenous ARA (vs endogenous) appears to undergo COX mediated metabolism with greatest affinity (vs LOX)- hence should result in greater target biotransformation.
 
Would there be any benefit for someone who is training fasted and using keto to take a tablespoon of MCT oil with the ara?
 
tyga tyga said:
Would there be any benefit for someone who is training fasted and using keto to take a tablespoon of MCT oil with the ara?
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Not any kind of enhancement, but no drawbacks, both will do their own thing
 
I tooks some x-gels this morning for the first time (1g with 2g L-carn) and noticed that I was a little short of breath and my heart rate was up a little. I did multiple sets of squats, a little lighter than normal (185 lbs) for 8-10 reps...

I just felt out of shape, cardiovascularily, which was weird. Has this happened to anyone else while taking ArA?
 
mmorso said:
I tooks some x-gels this morning for the first time (1g with 2g L-carn) and noticed that I was a little short of breath and my heart rate was up a little. I did multiple sets of squats, a little lighter than normal (185 lbs) for 8-10 reps...

I just felt out of shape, cardiovascularily, which was weird. Has this happened to anyone else while taking ArA?
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Being its your first dose of ArA, I would consider other factors contributing to the shortness of breath and increase in heart rate.
 
mmorso said:
I tooks some x-gels this morning for the first time (1g with 2g L-carn) and noticed that I was a little short of breath and my heart rate was up a little. I did multiple sets of squats, a little lighter than normal (185 lbs) for 8-10 reps...

I just felt out of shape, cardiovascularily, which was weird. Has this happened to anyone else while taking ArA?
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there is literally zero chance the ara had any effect on you in one workout. it has to build up in your system as its effects are due to saturation... we're talking at least a week and a half to two weeks.
 
mmorso said:
Can ArA cause inflammation of the heart?
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I'm assuming that by 'the heart' you would mean cardiac (heart) muscle tissue.
If this is the case, then once again- there would need to be (an almost ongoing or intermittent) injury present for any potential augmentation of inflammation. You could extrapolate hypothetical substantiation using research conducted in post MI (reperfused- i.e. prior injured) cardiomyoctes- it is recognized that ARA and lipoxygenase metabolites can accumulate in affected cardiac muscle post MI- so it should serve as an applicable mode of cardiac injury. An experimental model has shown that the presence of lipoxygenase in this tissue (which would occur through chronic inflammatory induction) is required for exogenous administered ARA (or Linolenic acid) metabolism to induce propensity for cell damage- ARA alone, in this same tissue, did not do this.
Similarly, other research testing cardiac muscle contractility has shown that large concentration of COX mediated ARA metabolites (PGD2, PGE2, PGF2-alpha) can induce cardiac muscle contraction leading to arrythmias- however ARA itself does not- in fact ARA actually suppressed the arrhythmia's induced by these metabolites.
So once again, it would seem that there would need to be pathology or imminent/actual injury present for any scope of exogenous ARA to have any deleterious effect in any tissue.
 
furion said:
I'm assuming that by 'the heart' you would mean cardiac (heart) muscle tissue.
If this is the case, then once again- there would need to be (an almost ongoing or intermittent) injury present for any potential augmentation of inflammation. You could extrapolate hypothetical substantiation using research conducted in post MI (reperfused- i.e. prior injured) cardiomyoctes- it is recognized that ARA and lipoxygenase metabolites can accumulate in affected cardiac muscle post MI- so it should serve as an applicable mode of cardiac injury. An experimental model has shown that the presence of lipoxygenase in this tissue (which would occur through chronic inflammatory induction) is required for exogenous administered ARA (or Linolenic acid) metabolism to induce propensity for cell damage- ARA alone, in this same tissue, did not do this.
Similarly, other research testing cardiac muscle contractility has shown that large concentration of COX mediated ARA metabolites (PGD2, PGE2, PGF2-alpha) can induce cardiac muscle contraction leading to arrythmias- however ARA itself does not- in fact ARA actually suppressed the arrhythmia's induced by these metabolites.
So once again, it would seem that there would need to be pathology or imminent/actual injury present for any scope of exogenous ARA to have any deleterious effect in any tissue.
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Would this occur with taking ArA one time? Or would it require a period of saturation?
 
mmorso said:
Would this occur with taking ArA one time? Or would it require a period of saturation?
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If you're that concerned about how you felt after one dose of ArA, go see a cardiologist. It may have had absolutely nothing to do with the ArA and been totally coincidental that it corresponded with your first dose. That doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing wrong with you.
 
toddmuelheim said:
If you're that concerned about how you felt after one dose of ArA, go see a cardiologist. It may have had absolutely nothing to do with the ArA and been totally coincidental that it corresponded with your first dose. That doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing wrong with you.
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good evening mr piano

have a good week
 
mmorso said:
Would this occur with taking ArA one time? Or would it require a period of saturation?
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Very unlikely. Realistically, as previously mentioned (twice now), you would have to have prior established pathology present. The induction of the inflammatory enzymes (that biotransform ARA) is not result of the ARA alone, rather and endogenous process.

Do you have prior diagnosed cardiac disease/pathology?
 
mmorso said:
Would this occur with taking ArA one time? Or would it require a period of saturation?
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i think you should just stay away from supplements... you're gonna drive yourself nuts with all these thoughts
 
furion said:
Very unlikely. Realistically, as previously mentioned (twice now), you would have to have prior established pathology present. The induction of the inflammatory enzymes (that biotransform ARA) is not result of the ARA alone, rather and endogenous process.

Do you have prior diagnosed cardiac disease/pathology?
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Lol. My bad for asking twice... Most of what you wrote previously was way over my head brother.
 
mmorso said:
Lol. My bad for asking twice... Most of what you wrote previously was way over my head brother.
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In essence what he said was that supplemental ARA wouldnt cause issue unless you had prior cardiac issues.

Always feel free to ask for clarification if need be :)
 
mmorso said:
Lol. My bad for asking twice... Most of what you wrote previously was way over my head brother.
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He's basically saying that unless you have pre-existing heart problems, it's not an issue. Have you ever had a heart attack or any other issues with your heart?
 
When dosing ArA, the consensus seems to be 1000-1500mg. Is this figure for the raw ArA content or the content of the gel itself?

For Example:
X gels - 625 mg is the gel and 250 mg is the ArA content, so take 3 gels for 1875mg ArA Blend or 4-6 gels to get to 1000-1500mg ArA. I believe its the later but want to be sure.
 
Traveler722 said:
When dosing ArA, the consensus seems to be 1000-1500mg. Is this figure for the raw ArA content or the content of the gel itself?

For Example:
X gels - 625 mg is the gel and 250 mg is the ArA content, so take 3 gels for 1875mg ArA Blend or 4-6 gels to get to 1000-1500mg ArA. I believe its the later but want to be sure.
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4-6 caps for the standardized ArA. X-Gels/X-Factor are 40% ArA. A lot of raws (especially powders) are 5-10% ArA. Huge difference.
 
Hi Jiigzz (and the many other knowledgeable posters on this forum!)
I had two random questions about ARA:
1) Is there any reason to think that ARA would affect phosphorus levels in any way?
2) Will ARA increase my serum creatinine (yep—creatinine, NOT creatine) above and beyond what one would expect from just doing more intense workouts? Most likely because I'm not too sharp on my physiology, I couldn't figure out a satisfying answer as to whether the localized skeletal-muscle inflammation associated with ARA would cause creatinine levels to spike any more than they would as a result of an equally intense but non-ARA-aided workout.

Thanks!
-ACJ
 
adamcj1 said:
Hi Jiigzz (and the many other knowledgeable posters on this forum!)
I had two random questions about ARA:
1) Is there any reason to think that ARA would affect phosphorus levels in any way?
2) Will ARA increase my serum creatinine (yep—creatinine, NOT creatine) above and beyond what one would expect from just doing more intense workouts? Most likely because I'm not too sharp on my physiology, I couldn't figure out a satisfying answer as to whether the localized skeletal-muscle inflammation associated with ARA would cause creatinine levels to spike any more than they would as a result of an equally intense but non-ARA-aided workout.

Thanks!
-ACJ
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This seems like a job for Jiigzz
 
Short on time for the second, will get back to you :D
 
adamcj1 said:
Hi Jiigzz (and the many other knowledgeable posters on this forum!)
I had two random questions about ARA:
1) Is there any reason to think that ARA would affect phosphorus levels in any way?
2) Will ARA increase my serum creatinine (yep—creatinine, NOT creatine) above and beyond what one would expect from just doing more intense workouts? Most likely because I'm not too sharp on my physiology, I couldn't figure out a satisfying answer as to whether the localized skeletal-muscle inflammation associated with ARA would cause creatinine levels to spike any more than they would as a result of an equally intense but non-ARA-aided workout.

Thanks!
-ACJ
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I’ll do my best to answer this, but may I ask why you want to know this?

Given the idiosyncrasies and volatile nature of serum creatinine, especially in those who regularly partake in resistant training and have a decent amount of skeletal muscle tissue, it would extremely difficult to test or quantify the influence of exogenous arachidonic acid and I am not aware of any specific human research that would give you a definitive answer.
Theoretically, there may be both an increase and decrease in the elimination of creatinine through the conversion of arachidonic acid to vasodilatory prostaglandins (PGI2 and PGE2) and vasoconstrictory metabolites (thromboxane and PGF2-alpha) in the renal tubules. There is evidence that demonstrates that the use of some NSAIDs can induce an increase in serum creatinine, postulating etiology as the reduction of renal elimination. If this were to be the case, one could pose the hypothesis that supplemental ARA may reverse this.

The below study (in aged rats) found no appreciable difference in plasma creatinine taking large doses of ARA over 13 weeks. The study did find a decrease in renal formed DHA and EPA metabolites, which as far my research has stretched, doesn’t appear have any specific pathological influence in healthy kidneys.
Invalid Link Removed
Obviously these results are not perfectly transferrable to supplemental arachidonic acid for ergogenic purposes. The study doesn’t specifically test the distribution of ARA to the muscles (rather just the plasma, liver and kidneys) however we would assume that by taking the dose pre-workout we will induce target ARA substrate (cyclooxygenase ) in the muscle cell (through stretching and contracting under sheer) and therefore affect distribution for delivery (and targeted metabolism) in this tissue. So even the results finding decreased DHA and EPA may not be transferrable given this different method of administration.
 
Xgels are available again at my supplier in UK, how come that there is such a big price difference? (like 65$ for 100 gels)

I rather order from the US and hope that it goes through customs without any problems
 
adamcj1 said:
Hi Jiigzz (and the many other knowledgeable posters on this forum!)
I had two random questions about ARA:
1) Is there any reason to think that ARA would affect phosphorus levels in any way?
2) Will ARA increase my serum creatinine (yep—creatinine, NOT creatine) above and beyond what one would expect from just doing more intense workouts? Most likely because I'm not too sharp on my physiology, I couldn't figure out a satisfying answer as to whether the localized skeletal-muscle inflammation associated with ARA would cause creatinine levels to spike any more than they would as a result of an equally intense but non-ARA-aided workout.

Thanks!
-ACJ
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Sorry I read straight over your first question.

I can’t see any reason why ARA would affect your blood phosphate levels. Saying that there is also no direct evidence testing exogenous ARA on phosphate levels or in any disease states that predispose hyper or hypophosphatemia.

Endogenously produced ARA (and metabolites) in the parathyroid gland is involved in the inhibition of parathyroid hormone secretion (as a complex result of increased intracellular Ca+ and phospholipase A2 activation). This production appears to be act as a feedback mechanism that is only activated in conditions of hyperphosphatemia. So essentially it may only occur in any measurable level in existing conditions where phosphate elimination is compromised it for whatever reason (eg. parathyroid pathology/hypoparathyroidism, kidney dysfunction/failure).

It would seem very unlikely that exogenously administered ARA would be capable of inhibiting PTH secretion and thereby influence phosphate elimination/blood phosphate levels in the absence of hyperphosphatemia. The resultant increase in intracellular calcium (from the high blood phosphate levels) that activates the phospholipase A2 (which then hydrolyzes membrane stored esterified ARA) appears instrumental in the cascade that reduces PTH secretion. As serum ARA (from exogenous supplementation) is not the substrate for phospholipase A2 in this cascade, it would seem unlikely to be capable of undergoing the same fate.
 
mbonheur said:
Xgels are available again at my supplier in UK, how come that there is such a big price difference? (like 65$ for 100 gels)

I rather order from the US and hope that it goes through customs without any problems
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overseas markup is typically higher simply due to the cost for them to get the product to their warehouses... also, some suppliers just simply have a higher markup rate.
 
booneman77 said:
overseas markup is typically higher simply due to the cost for them to get the product to their warehouses... also, some suppliers just simply have a higher markup rate.
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Yes, I agree, but that is almost the price for two bottles. And don't worry, they charge shipping extra.

Since they are a official retailer for SNS, I wanted to know whether there are other explanations.

Anyhow, I don't think anybody buys 100 gels at 65$
 
mbonheur said:
Yes, I agree, but that is almost the price for two bottles. And don't worry, they charge shipping extra.

Since they are a official retailer for SNS, I wanted to know whether there are other explanations.

Anyhow, I don't think anybody buys 100 gels at 65$
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prices that retailers charge aren't up to the company that makes the product in any way... its unfortunate, but retailers can mark them up to whatever they like to make the most profit. As long as someone is buying them, they'll keep the price there ha
 
mbonheur said:
Yes, I agree, but that is almost the price for two bottles. And don't worry, they charge shipping extra.

Since they are a official retailer for SNS, I wanted to know whether there are other explanations.

Anyhow, I don't think anybody buys 100 gels at 65$
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It's crap, but we don't set individual retailers mark-ups. That's on them to set a price they see as reasonable based on cost, dollar conversion and their mark-ups.

I'm from NZ and most simple pre's retail for $50+
 
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34.89 before our discount codes
For US customers anyways

When you want the least markup, shop Lockout
 
furion

furion said:
I’ll do my best to answer this, but may I ask why you want to know this?
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Certainly, but would you mind shooting me a PM? (I don't have enough posts to send one to you yet, but I assume I can reply to one that you send me.) Nothing to hide—as you no doubt surmised, it's a renal thing—I just don't want to derail this great thread with nuanced discussions of things like the shortcomings of MDRD and CKD-EPI eGFR, the idiosyncrasies of my hepatic [sic] metabolism, etc.

And BTW, *thank you* for the thorough and detailed replies!

-ACJ
 
I'm currently 2 weeks in and finding it difficult taking the ArA fasted, so I've been taking them after a couple warm up sets. Dumb question, does it matter if I warm up with cardio (running) if I am training chest, or does the ArA have to be taken after a warm up relating to the muscle group being worked?
 
ozzie1987 said:
I'm currently 2 weeks in and finding it difficult taking the ArA fasted, so I've been taking them after a couple warm up sets. Dumb question, does it matter if I warm up with cardio (running) if I am training chest, or does the ArA have to be taken after a warm up relating to the muscle group being worked?
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Not a dumb question at all. In fact interesting point as substrates will flow to the muscles being utilized. Overall though, it won't matter as you will find Ara will take a while to make it's way through the GI (this is why we suggest 45 mins pre workout).

Fine to take during your running :)
 
I'm curious why companies no longer sell the 200 caps version. That should last a complete 8 week run or so. Buying 2x100 caps is expensive these days.
 
Is small doses of ginger 4-6 hours before ara okay? I know it is a cox 2 inhibitor, but it is in a digestive enzyme blend that I use. The blend also incorporates a small amount of n-acetyl glucosamine (150mg). For that matter, should I even be taking digestive enzymes around ara? Sorry for the hair splitting question.

Also, Lycopene in salsa? Will a few tbsp of salsa hurt things?
 
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