Tell Us What You Would Like to See From SNS & CEL (2021 Edition)

sns8778

sns8778

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If you haven't already, I would suggest that you consider adding a very bioavailable form of Magnesium to the mix.
The formula for this one is already done. We stayed away from Magnesium because there is an upper limit to how much elemental Magnesium people should take per day and we didn't want anyone avoiding the product because of that.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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Maybe it’s just me but I am gobsmacked at how much people care about flavours in powdered drink supplements. I reckon it needs to be enough to be able to chug down concoctions of what are mostly strong extracts including bitter alkaloids and other goodies, then get on with things! If you want a nice tasting beverage, go and drink a nice tasting beverage. But again I’m sure plenty of other people see it differently.
Unfortunately, about 95% or more of consumers disagree with that. Look at the 2 best selling pre-workouts Amino Energy and C4. And I'm not bashing them; they know what they're doing - they're marketing to that customer base. When you get into the general health market, people are even more picky.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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I would agree with you on most fronts. But a drink product made specifically to help you relax at night probably won’t benefit from a cringe-making flavor ya know?
I know personally, I could see myself sitting there at the end of the day sipping on the concoction and letting the mellow happen. I would much prefer that to be in the form of deliciousness than have it taste like @ss
I want to make sure our ideas are on the same page. The product I'm talking about is a more sip it an hour before bed to relax and sleep type of thing; versus something you'd drink when you came in from work. You may could drink a half serving like that, but its definitely meant more for closer to bedtime.

Is that what you're thinking?

At one time, I did think of making a separate one for relaxation purposes without the intent of sleep, but I'm not sure both would sell.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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I assume you have never had GET DIESEL "READY4WAR" "NEUTRAL FLAVOR" then. lol. May have to travel back in time to 2005 but...

Bring on the flavors.
Ha. At one time we were going to make a powdered version of M-Test and add a couple things. I tasted the base to know what it tasted like versus the flavor samples. We got in flavor samples that were good for what it was, but the average person couldn't have drank it. That's why we scrapped the idea.
 
MFTrainz

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I want to make sure our ideas are on the same page. The product I'm talking about is a more sip it an hour before bed to relax and sleep type of thing; versus something you'd drink when you came in from work. You may could drink a half serving like that, but its definitely meant more for closer to bedtime.

Is that what you're thinking?

At one time, I did think of making a separate one for relaxation purposes without the intent of sleep, but I'm not sure both would sell.
My night time relaxation is about an hour or two before bed. The way my schedule works it would fit my day perfectly
 
sns8778

sns8778

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My night time relaxation is about an hour or two before bed. The way my schedule works it would fit my day perfectly
Cool. I just wanted to make sure. I could definitely see sipping on this throughout that time period. That's what I did with some of the samples we had.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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Mitoburn/L-BAIBA

I have a question for everyone that wants us to do a MitoBurn product.

We are looking at using it in one or more items. For the formula items, I would like to know what you'd like to see combined with.

It seems like the most common combination with this is with Forskolin and Aframomum (both Thermo Amp and Core's product combine those together) with Core's adding Sinetrol, which was another ingredient I had been looking at for awhile.
 

ironkill

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Mitoburn/L-BAIBA

I have a question for everyone that wants us to do a MitoBurn product.

We are looking at using it in one or more items. For the formula items, I would like to know what you'd like to see combined with.

It seems like the most common combination with this is with Forskolin and Aframomum (both Thermo Amp and Core's product combine those together) with Core's adding Sinetrol, which was another ingredient I had been looking at for awhile.
This wont be a popular choice Im sure but some form of yohimbe would be ideal for me
 
sns8778

sns8778

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This wont be a popular choice Im sure but some form of yohimbe would be ideal for me
We will most likely keep it a stimulant free product, or at least do a stimulant free version first.

The good thing is though if you like Yohimbine and/or Alpha Yohimbine is that we make both so cost effectively that you could add them to anything you'd like to.

I can't take regular Yohimbine but I love Alpha Yohimbine.

Alpha Yohimbine capsules - 1.5 mg. per capsule:


Yohimbine 2.5 - 2.5 mg. per capsule:

 
sns8778

sns8778

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Another question - we were asked to do a RIPFACTOR product a couple of times. If we were to do this in a formula, anything in particular anyone would like to see it with?
 

N2ofusion

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Mitoburn/L-BAIBA

I have a question for everyone that wants us to do a MitoBurn product.

We are looking at using it in one or more items. For the formula items, I would like to know what you'd like to see combined with.

It seems like the most common combination with this is with Forskolin and Aframomum (both Thermo Amp and Core's product combine those together) with Core's adding Sinetrol, which was another ingredient I had been looking at for awhile.
I like that alpha lion uses bioperine in it, couldn’t stomach the price of it though.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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I like that alpha lion uses bioperine in it, couldn’t stomach the price of it though.
We would definitely use Bioperine with it, no doubt about that.

I'm considering doing just a MitoBurn/Bioperine product and then also doing a formula product with it in there.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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do a ripped factor and mitoburn combo product
I'm not sure on this one. I think they would make a good stack for people that want to stack them, but they are geared towards different goals. Which I find weird that they named their product RipFactor when its more for building muscle than getting leaner.
 

Irishobrien

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We would definitely use Bioperine with it, no doubt about that.

I'm considering doing just a MitoBurn/Bioperine product and then also doing a formula product with it in there.
is there any evidence that BAIBA is a substrate for glucuronidation for which piperine would be of any benefit? Typically these small amino acids are not subject to this type of metabolism. Looking at the data, it appears that (depending on genotype) BAIBA is excreted unchanged in the urine.

 
GQdaLEGEND

GQdaLEGEND

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do a ripped factor and mitoburn combo product
yeah i like the solo idea better .. just with bioperine ( not too high incase pple want to stack it with epiplex )
 
GQdaLEGEND

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I like that alpha lion uses bioperine in it, couldn’t stomach the price of it though.
how much does it go for ? im guessing 60 caps around $35-40 ?
 
sns8778

sns8778

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yeah i like the solo idea better .. just with bioperine ( not too high incase pple want to stack it with epiplex )
It's not either/or. We will be doing MitoBurn solo w absorption enhancers. But I'm thinking of using it in another formula as well; that's what I was curious if anyone had any ideas for that they'd want to see with it.

RipFactor - I'm open to using it in a formula. And would love to hear any ideas that anyone may have.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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is there any evidence that BAIBA is a substrate for glucuronidation for which piperine would be of any benefit? Typically these small amino acids are not subject to this type of metabolism. Looking at the data, it appears that (depending on genotype) BAIBA is excreted unchanged in the urine.

I don't think that there is any evidence that Bioperine would be beneficial, but a lot of people say they feel like it may help, and worst case, it wouldn't hurt.
 

Lemon1992

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Thank you for the great info.

I think that Bioperine and AstraGin are definite inclusions.

Naringin I want to include but I have to double check something. I'm surprised that there really aren't any Naringin products out there now when there used to be. I want to make sure that there isn't an insurance exclusion related to it due to its ability to also increase absorption of prescriptions.

I remember the fist Naringin supplement I ever saw. It was by a company called Meritech back in the old ph days and they marketed it to enhance the absorption of ph's. They closed years ago but just a fun memory.

Ginger - the issue here is that for marketability, this product would need to be 1 capsule per dose. We could suggest using 1 capsule multiple times per day, but I think it needs to be 1 cap per dose. If you don't mind, could you post or pm me any information specific to absorption enhancement. The common gingerol percentages are 5% and 10% for capsule products.

Cinnamon - I'm still pretty decided against this bc of the insulin aspect. I do not think that is a bad aspect at all; I'm just worried it would negatively impact the marketability to the general public.

My thoughts thus far would be:

AstraGin - 25 to 50 mg.
Bioperine - 5 mg.
Naringin (if possible - TBD
Ginger (probably 10% gingerols) - TBD
I’m back fellas. Work been kicking my ass, was too tired during the week to reply.

Regarding naringin, indeed not too many brands are including it in their supps or selling it as a standalone. Thank God for Swanson, only company out there I could find that carries naringin. I’ve been using their 500 mg Naringin for years. It never failed me! And the price is good!

Their naringin is out of stock right now.
 
Beau

Beau

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I’m back fellas. Work been kicking my ass, was too tired during the week to reply.

Regarding naringin, indeed not too many brands are including it in their supps or selling it as a standalone. Thank God for Swanson, only company out there I could find that carries naringin. I’ve been using their 500 mg Naringin for years. It never failed me! And the price is good!

Their naringin is out of stock right now.
It is available rather inexpensively as bulk powder.
 

Lemon1992

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Thank you for the great info.

I think that Bioperine and AstraGin are definite inclusions.

Naringin I want to include but I have to double check something. I'm surprised that there really aren't any Naringin products out there now when there used to be. I want to make sure that there isn't an insurance exclusion related to it due to its ability to also increase absorption of prescriptions.

I remember the fist Naringin supplement I ever saw. It was by a company called Meritech back in the old ph days and they marketed it to enhance the absorption of ph's. They closed years ago but just a fun memory.

Ginger - the issue here is that for marketability, this product would need to be 1 capsule per dose. We could suggest using 1 capsule multiple times per day, but I think it needs to be 1 cap per dose. If you don't mind, could you post or pm me any information specific to absorption enhancement. The common gingerol percentages are 5% and 10% for capsule products.

Cinnamon - I'm still pretty decided against this bc of the insulin aspect. I do not think that is a bad aspect at all; I'm just worried it would negatively impact the marketability to the general public.

My thoughts thus far would be:

AstraGin - 25 to 50 mg.
Bioperine - 5 mg.
Naringin (if possible - TBD
Ginger (probably 10% gingerols) - TBD
Since there are no premade bioenhancers out there, I’ve had to make my own blend, here are the supps I’ve been using:
  • 500 mg Naringin
  • 10 mg bioperine (since lots of supps come with bioperine already sometimes I don’t need to add any)
  • Super Gingerols 400 mg (Standardised to 20% Gingerols)
  • *** Ceylon cinnamon (here and there not always)
The mix you've got in mind is on point!! I wish there were studies out there on the combination of bioperine and AstraGin. That said, regarding naringin it's definitely for "intense" people, I'm an intense person which is why I like it in my blend 😅. But I do see where adding such ingredient to a supplement can get tricky considering those who are taking meds. Also, speaking from experience mixing naringin and stimulants together can lead to dangerous territories if not careful, one definitely has to be meticulous.
 
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Lemon1992

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FWIW - I mix naringin (powder), ginger extract (powder), and cinnamon (powder) together (and the combination sort of kills the strong narinigin and ginger tastes) and take it with bioperine (pill) to enhance absorption/assimilation. I have thought about adding betaine HCL (capsule) - but I don't know if that would help or hurt.
I do the same, open each capsule mix that in my pre-workout powder and it gets me going! Betaine is quite interesting. I’ve read lots of great articles about that supplement when it comes to fat loss, but in terms of bioenhancer I haven’t seen too many studies using it for that purpose.
 
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alvin1

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It's not either/or. We will be doing MitoBurn solo w absorption enhancers. But I'm thinking of using it in another formula as well; that's what I was curious if anyone had any ideas for that they'd want to see with it.

RipFactor - I'm open to using it in a formula. And would love to hear any ideas that anyone may have.
I read somewhere that one of the ingredient could reduce DHT like fenugreek, but maybe my reading skill or not correct, but if it does reduce DHT this is not a product that interess me, @sns8778 do you have that kind of info on that product?
 

Lemon1992

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Great post.

I'm definitely interested in this as a product idea. I think it could be a unique approach to stimulant free fat loss.

What dosage of C3G would you have in mind? It's been awhile since I did reading up on that and when I did, it wasn't focused on any of its attributes related to this.

Also, for Isohumulones, is there any specific dose/standardization that you're thinking?
I use 200 mg of isohumulones. Note that in some studies dosage has been way lower and great results have been seen.

203271


That being said, I have to admit that isohumulones isn’t an easy supplement to find, lots of hop extract supplements out there though. The only brand that I am aware of that contains that stuff is Blood Sugar Control (now known as Diabetes Defense). The Blood Sugar Control contains 200 mg of isohumulones, sadly, the new formulation contains humulone however. Glad I have a couple bottles of the old version left. Note that I have no idea which isohumulones is used in that supplement.
203272


Here is some of the information I’ve gathered over the years about isohumulones:
The active ingredients in hops with fat-fighting properties are called isohumulones, which contribute to beer’s bitter flavor. New research reports isomerized hops extract can decrease body fat by several mechanisms: First, it inhibits the absorption of fat by the intestines. Second, it activates genes involved in fat oxidation to ramp up the fat-burning engines. And third, it decreases the activity of genes that control the synthesis and storage of body fat.
203273


  • Isohumulones, bitter acids derived from hops, activate both peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR) delta and gamma and reduce insulin resistance.
Isohumulones, which impart bitter flavor and an antibacterial property to beers, are generated from humulones (also known as alpha acids) in the hop plant (Humulus lupulus L.) during the brewing process. The three major types of isohumulones are isohumulone, isocohumulone, and isoadhumulone, all of which are structurally related. The presence of isohumulones has long been noted in beers, but their physiologic actions remained curiously obscure. Iso-α-acids or isohumulones are hop-derived beer constituents which are formed in the brewing process.

Multiple studies over the past decade show that isohumulones have beneficial metabolic effects in both laboratory animals and humans. In a series of papers since 2009, one hop extract formulation was shown to suppress inflammation in human cells, reduce weight gain in mice on a high-fat diet, and increase glucose tolerance in a mouse model of type 2 diabetes. Perhaps most impressively, in a placebo-controlled study of prediabetic Japanese patients, those taking an isohumulone supplement both reduced their hyperglycemia and decreased their body fat. But it’s proven difficult to determine exactly why these compounds have such beneficial health effects. There are many different types of isohumulones, and hop cones produce a complex mixture. Their molecular similarity has kept researchers from isolating individual molecules, and without a single, pure compound to study, it’s difficult to conclusively demonstrate what isohumulones are doing in vivo.

  • The three major types of isohumulones are isohumulone, isocohumulone, and isoadhumulone, all of which are structurally related. The presence of isohumulones has long been noted in beers, but their physiologic actions remained curiously obscure.
The flower extracts of Humulus lupulus, commonly known as hops, contained humulone, lupulone, and xanthohumol, which have shown moderate to strong anticollagenase inhibitory activities and exhibited bactericidal activity against P. acnes.

In 2014 a pharmaceutical research firm created a pure synthetic isohumulone they called KDT501. They showed that KDT501 had anti-inflammatory and anti-diabetic properties like those naturally in hops: in two different mouse models of obesity, the molecule reduced fat mass, cholesterol, and weight gain.

Description: 600mg twice daily, Oral, for 10days; then 800mg twice daily, Oral, for 10 days; then 1,000mg twice daily, Oral, for 8 days. (2000 mg X 30 = 60, 000 mg = 60g) https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02444910

  • KDT 501(CAS 1374259-84-3) is a PPAR agonist and G protein-coupled receptor.
  • KDT 501 is a PPAR agonist and G protein-coupled receptor (GPR) 120 agonist potentially for the treatment of type 2 diabetes.
  • KDT-501 is in phase II clinical trials by KinDex Therapeutics for the treatment of type 2 diabetes. It is also in preclinical trials for the treatment of polycystic ovarian syndrome (POS), non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).
The researches on KDT501 are pretty interesting. And I think the research for its use in type 2 diabetes was discontinued...
203274


P.S. isohumulones is the bitterest supplement I’ve ever tasted. That stuff bitter AF!
 
sns8778

sns8778

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I read somewhere that one of the ingredient could reduce DHT like fenugreek, but maybe my reading skill or not correct, but if it does reduce DHT this is not a product that interess me, @sns8778 do you have that kind of info on that product?
From what I read, I think its a stretch to think that would happen to any degree that it would effect anything.

Also, I'm trying to think of how to say this nicely - one of the people that I saw spreading that information is associated with a company that has also put down other ingredients by the same branded ingredient company that has the rights to RIPFACTOR. (Likely bc that company is super strict on labeling guidelines, who they'll work with, etc.)

Also, I honestly don't think Fenugreek inhibits DHT to the extent that some people say it does. If it did, you'd see more branded ingredient companies market it for that purpose

There is a MUCH bigger market for ingredients to reduce DHT than there is to increase it, so I think they if one of the ingredients in RIPFACTOR actually did that, they'd be foolish not to market it as a DHT reducer. Hell, if it did that I'd be all over it myself - a natural muscle builder for middle aged men worried about their hairline - you'd literally have a 2 in 1 sales pitch IF it did it. Hell, after reading how good that sales pitch sounds, I almost wish I believed it did do that lol.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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I use 200 mg of isohumulones. Note that in some studies dosage has been way lower and great results have been seen.

View attachment 203271

That being said, I have to admit that isohumulones isn’t an easy supplement to find, lots of hop extract supplements out there though. The only brand that I am aware of that contains that stuff is Blood Sugar Control (now known as Diabetes Defense). The Blood Sugar Control contains 200 mg of isohumulones, sadly, the new formulation contains humulone however. Glad I have a couple bottles of the old version left. Note that I have no idea which isohumulones is used in that supplement.
View attachment 203272

Here is some of the information I’ve gathered over the years about isohumulones:
The active ingredients in hops with fat-fighting properties are called isohumulones, which contribute to beer’s bitter flavor. New research reports isomerized hops extract can decrease body fat by several mechanisms: First, it inhibits the absorption of fat by the intestines. Second, it activates genes involved in fat oxidation to ramp up the fat-burning engines. And third, it decreases the activity of genes that control the synthesis and storage of body fat.
View attachment 203273

  • Isohumulones, bitter acids derived from hops, activate both peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR) delta and gamma and reduce insulin resistance.
Isohumulones, which impart bitter flavor and an antibacterial property to beers, are generated from humulones (also known as alpha acids) in the hop plant (Humulus lupulus L.) during the brewing process. The three major types of isohumulones are isohumulone, isocohumulone, and isoadhumulone, all of which are structurally related. The presence of isohumulones has long been noted in beers, but their physiologic actions remained curiously obscure. Iso-α-acids or isohumulones are hop-derived beer constituents which are formed in the brewing process.

Multiple studies over the past decade show that isohumulones have beneficial metabolic effects in both laboratory animals and humans. In a series of papers since 2009, one hop extract formulation was shown to suppress inflammation in human cells, reduce weight gain in mice on a high-fat diet, and increase glucose tolerance in a mouse model of type 2 diabetes. Perhaps most impressively, in a placebo-controlled study of prediabetic Japanese patients, those taking an isohumulone supplement both reduced their hyperglycemia and decreased their body fat. But it’s proven difficult to determine exactly why these compounds have such beneficial health effects. There are many different types of isohumulones, and hop cones produce a complex mixture. Their molecular similarity has kept researchers from isolating individual molecules, and without a single, pure compound to study, it’s difficult to conclusively demonstrate what isohumulones are doing in vivo.

  • The three major types of isohumulones are isohumulone, isocohumulone, and isoadhumulone, all of which are structurally related. The presence of isohumulones has long been noted in beers, but their physiologic actions remained curiously obscure.
The flower extracts of Humulus lupulus, commonly known as hops, contained humulone, lupulone, and xanthohumol, which have shown moderate to strong anticollagenase inhibitory activities and exhibited bactericidal activity against P. acnes.

In 2014 a pharmaceutical research firm created a pure synthetic isohumulone they called KDT501. They showed that KDT501 had anti-inflammatory and anti-diabetic properties like those naturally in hops: in two different mouse models of obesity, the molecule reduced fat mass, cholesterol, and weight gain.

Description: 600mg twice daily, Oral, for 10days; then 800mg twice daily, Oral, for 10 days; then 1,000mg twice daily, Oral, for 8 days. (2000 mg X 30 = 60, 000 mg = 60g) https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02444910

  • KDT 501(CAS 1374259-84-3) is a PPAR agonist and G protein-coupled receptor.
  • KDT 501 is a PPAR agonist and G protein-coupled receptor (GPR) 120 agonist potentially for the treatment of type 2 diabetes.
  • KDT-501 is in phase II clinical trials by KinDex Therapeutics for the treatment of type 2 diabetes. It is also in preclinical trials for the treatment of polycystic ovarian syndrome (POS), non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).
The researches on KDT501 are pretty interesting. And I think the research for its use in type 2 diabetes was discontinued...
View attachment 203274

P.S. isohumulones is the bitterest supplement I’ve ever tasted. That stuff bitter AF!
I think I figured out why it may be so hard to find supplements that specify the dosage of isohumulones. I spoke with several raw material suppliers and they said that since it isn't one of the main components that most companies buy Hops for, it isn't something they normally test for. Kind of like how when people ask many of the Lecithin companies how much Phosphatidic Acid is in their Lecithin, they really don't know exactly bc people normally buy it for other content so thats what they test for.

I think thats likely why the few supplements that you do see that mention it say something like 'Hops (standardized for isohumulones)' - that way they don't obligate themselves to a specific % amount and then not be able to get it again.
 
sns8778

sns8778

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Since there are no premade bioenhancers out there, I’ve had to make my own blend, here are the supps I’ve been using:
  • 500 mg Naringin
  • 10 mg bioperine (since lots of supps come with bioperine already sometimes I don’t need to add any)
  • Super Gingerols 400 mg (Standardised to 20% Gingerols)
  • *** Ceylon cinnamon (here and there not always)
The mix you've got in mind is on point!! I wish there were studies out there on the combination of bioperine and AstraGin. That said, regarding naringin it's definitely for "intense" people, I'm an intense person which is why I like it in my blend 😅. But I do see where adding such ingredient to a supplement can get tricky considering those who are taking meds. Also, speaking from experience mixing naringin and stimulants together can lead to dangerous territories if not careful, one definitely has to be meticulous.
Yeah, Naringin does have me on the fence a little. I like it, I can see the benefit in it, but it worries me why so many are staying away from it. I'm going to check and see if there is an insurance exclusion on it. I do think it needs a warning about taking it with medications, and that may be why a lot of companies stay away from it - bc I could see that scaring the average person.

I'm having a hard time finding a supplier thus far that can prove they have 20% gingerols. If you get above 25%, I now it needs to be a softgel according to one branded ingredient supplier that I know that works with them.
 

Lemon1992

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Great post.

I'm definitely interested in this as a product idea. I think it could be a unique approach to stimulant free fat loss.

What dosage of C3G would you have in mind? It's been awhile since I did reading up on that and when I did, it wasn't focused on any of its attributes related to this.

Also, for Isohumulones, is there any specific dose/standardization that you're thinking?
Almost forgot to get back to you on Cyanidin 3-glucoside (c3g). Considering the lack of well-designed studies and clinical trials about this compound, there isn’t really an established guideline when it comes to dosage. When I was trying to get my hands on some C3G, it was hard to determine how much I’d need for a month supply due to the lack of studies on humans. Note I was trying to get my hands on some pharmaceutical grade C3G (Cyanidin 3-glucoside chloride). In most of the studies I’ve gone through, dosage ranging anywhere from 150mg to 2000mg has been used. An article from T-Nation mentioned effective dose ranges from minimum 500 mg to 600 mg.
203284


Also according to T-Nation C3G is pretty expensive and has low bioavailability, but regarding these two points lots have changed over the years. The T-Nation article was written 11 years ago, so probably back then getting high quality C3G was difficult to come by.

203286


Effective C3G Dosing ( excerpt from T0Nation)
It's simple. Find raspberries or blueberries that actually contain high levels of C3G and then eat 12 pounds of them per day.

Too bad that's not really feasible. Besides, blueberries (and the other berries and their extracts) that contain C3G also contain quercetin and other compounds (anthocyanins and anthocyanidins) that can either inhibit or diminish the effects of C3G.

So, even if you had a bottomless pit of a stomach, it's literally impossible to eat enough blueberries or raspberries or berry extract to achieve any repartitioning effects from C3G.

And lastly, to make C3G even workable as a super-repartitioning compound, it needs to be formulated with enhanced bioavailability. So in summary, to be highly effective, you need a pure C3G compound that's bioengineered with enhanced bioavailability.

The only problem is, at the time we started this project, no one had produced C3G in a purified state and in quantities suitable for drug or supplement applications. The only pure C3G being sold was intended for research and it cost $1,200 for 100 mg. That means it would've cost more than $60,000 just to manufacture a single bottle of C3G!So if we wanted pure C3G, we had no other choice but to make it ourselves.

This may come as a surprise, but we started this project a little more than six years ago. In January, 2005, Biotest began working with a drug-development group to produce a pure C3G compound. This past January (2011) – exactly six years later – Biotest finally received its first bulk shipment of C3G. It's a good thing we stuck with the project, too, because other than the material we produced, there's currently no production quantities of C3G available anywhere in the world.

Still, there is a small handful of supplements on the market formulated with crude extracts that claim to contain C3G. But just as the case with fresh berries and berry extracts, none of these products contain the purified form of C3G or anywhere close to the amount of C3G required to be effective for nutrient repartitioning. Furthermore, none are designed to enhance the absorption of C3G.


When I tried to order C3G hydrochloride I was quoted
  • 72g Cyanidin 3-O-glucoside chloride $350 USD (98% purity)
In terms of bioavailability, this is a wild assumption that I’m making so don’t quote me on this as no research has been conducted on the chloride form of C3G yet, but adding chloride to C3G could perhaps help in enhancing its bioavailability. Again this is a wild guess.

For those of you a bit familiar with pharmacology, if you notice lots of drugs will have chloride or hydrochloride (HCL) after their name. The reason for this is that some drugs require a salt to be added to them to ensure that they can dissolve in the stomach or be absorbed into the bloodstream. Sometimes salts make medicine more stable so that it has a longer shelf life. More than 50% of all available medicines exist as salts. Hydrochloride is the most commonly used salt, and 15.5% of all drugs contain it. In fact, when buying medication, there is one term you will probably see more than most, hydrochloride.

The reason why hydrochlorides are common in pharmaceuticals boils down to the fact that they are soluble. This means that their effectiveness as a form of medication increases when taken. This is because when the tablet dissolves after being taken, it can move through the bloodstream easier, making it a more effective treatment.

There are some medicines, for example metoprolol, that have two different salts (in this example metoprolol tartrate and metoprolol succinate). If a medicine has two different salts these are usually not interchangeable.

Other common salts include:
  • sodium (9%)
  • sulfate (4%)
  • acetate (2.5%)
  • phosphate or diphosphate (1.9%)
  • chloride (1.8%)
  • potassium (1.6%)
  • maleate (1.4%).
The choice of salt primarily comes down to the pH of the medicine (this is how acidic or alkaline it is). Other factors that affect salt choice include the natural stability of the medicine, its intended use, how it is going to be administered (such as by mouth, by injection, or applied on the skin) and the intended dosage form (such as a tablet, capsule, or liquid).

Salts may also be added during the manufacture of a controlled-release form, to improve a medicine's taste, its effectiveness, to make it less painful if it is going to be injected or to extend the patent life.

Sorry for getting a bit too scientific there.

Back to C3G, considering that no studies have been conducted yet on the C3G chloride, I’ve decided to wait a bit before going ahead and trying it. I’d definitely need to have a long discussion with someone who specializes in pharmacology. That being said, it’s a shame that there are very few studies out there conducted on humans and no appropriate dosage has been determined because CG3 really seems to have lots of potential:
  • supports lean muscle mass growth
  • reduces adipose tissue
  • antioxidant and neuroprotective effects.
There’s this company that produces high quality C3G called CyaniMax. But there again very few research.
203287
 
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sns8778

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Almost forgot to get back to you on Cyanidin 3-glucoside (c3g). Considering the lack of well-designed studies and clinical trials about this compound, there isn’t really an established guideline when it comes to dosage. When I was trying to get my hands on some C3G, it was hard to determine how much I’d need for a month supply due to the lack of studies on humans. Note I was trying to get my hands on some pharmaceutical grade C3G (Cyanidin 3-glucoside chloride). In most of the studies I’ve gone through, dosage ranged anywhere from 150mg to 2000mg has been used. An article from T-Nation mentioned effective dose ranges from minimum 500 mg to 600 mg.
View attachment 203284

Also according to T-Nation C3G is pretty expensive and has low bioavailability, but regarding these two points lots have changed over the years. The T-Nation article was written 11 years ago, so probably back then getting high quality C3G was difficult to come by.

View attachment 203286

Effective C3G Dosing ( excerpt from T0Nation)
It's simple. Find raspberries or blueberries that actually contain high levels of C3G and then eat 12 pounds of them per day.

Too bad that's not really feasible. Besides, blueberries (and the other berries and their extracts) that contain C3G also contain quercetin and other compounds (anthocyanins and anthocyanidins) that can either inhibit or diminish the effects of C3G.

So, even if you had a bottomless pit of a stomach, it's literally impossible to eat enough blueberries or raspberries or berry extract to achieve any repartitioning effects from C3G.

And lastly, to make C3G even workable as a super-repartitioning compound, it needs to be formulated with enhanced bioavailability. So in summary, to be highly effective, you need a pure C3G compound that's bioengineered with enhanced bioavailability.

The only problem is, at the time we started this project, no one had produced C3G in a purified state and in quantities suitable for drug or supplement applications. The only pure C3G being sold was intended for research and it cost $1,200 for 100 mg. That means it would've cost more than $60,000 just to manufacture a single bottle of C3G!So if we wanted pure C3G, we had no other choice but to make it ourselves.

This may come as a surprise, but we started this project a little more than six years ago. In January, 2005, Biotest began working with a drug-development group to produce a pure C3G compound. This past January (2011) – exactly six years later – Biotest finally received its first bulk shipment of C3G. It's a good thing we stuck with the project, too, because other than the material we produced, there's currently no production quantities of C3G available anywhere in the world.

Still, there is a small handful of supplements on the market formulated with crude extracts that claim to contain C3G. But just as the case with fresh berries and berry extracts, none of these products contain the purified form of C3G or anywhere close to the amount of C3G required to be effective for nutrient repartitioning. Furthermore, none are designed to enhance the absorption of C3G.


When I tried to order C3G hydrochloride I was quoted
  • 72g Cyanidin 3-O-glucoside chloride $350 USD (98% purity)
In terms of bioavailability, this is a wild assumption that I’m making so don’t quote me on this as no research has been conducted on the chloride form of C3G yet, but adding chloride to C3G could perhaps help in enhancing its bioavailability. Again this is a wild guess.

For those of you a bit familiar with pharmacology, if you notice lots of drugs will have chloride or hydrochloride (HCL) after their name. The reason for this is that some drugs require a salt to be added to them to ensure that they can dissolve in the stomach or be absorbed into the bloodstream. Sometimes salts make medicine more stable so that it has a longer shelf life. More than 50% of all available medicines exist as salts. Hydrochloride is the most commonly used salt, and 15.5% of all drugs contain it. In fact, when buying medication, there is one term you will probably see more than most, hydrochloride.

The reason why hydrochlorides are common in pharmaceuticals boils down to the fact that they are soluble. This means that their effectiveness as a form of medication increases when taken. This is because when the tablet dissolves after being taken, it can move through the bloodstream easier, making it a more effective treatment.

There are some medicines, for example metoprolol, that have two different salts (in this example metoprolol tartrate and metoprolol succinate). If a medicine has two different salts these are usually not interchangeable.

Other common salts include:
  • sodium (9%)
  • sulfate (4%)
  • acetate (2.5%)
  • phosphate or diphosphate (1.9%)
  • chloride (1.8%)
  • potassium (1.6%)
  • maleate (1.4%).
The choice of salt primarily comes down to the pH of the medicine (this is how acidic or alkaline it is). Other factors that affect salt choice include the natural stability of the medicine, its intended use, how it is going to be administered (such as by mouth, by injection, or applied on the skin) and the intended dosage form (such as a tablet, capsule, or liquid).

Salts may also be added during the manufacture of a controlled-release form, to improve a medicine's taste, its effectiveness, to make it less painful if it is going to be injected or to extend the patent life.

Sorry for getting a bit too scientific there.

Back to C3G, considering that no studies have been conducted yet on the C3G chloride, I’ve decided to wait a bit before going ahead and trying it. I’d definitely need to have a long discussion with someone who specializes in pharmacology. That being said, it’s a shame that there are very few studies out there conducted on humans and no appropriate dosage has been determined because CG3 really seems to have lots of potential:
  • supports lean muscle mass growth
  • reduces adipose tissue
  • antioxidant and neuroprotective effects.
There’s this company that produces high quality C3G called CyaniMax. But there again very few research.
View attachment 203287
Thanks for the information. We're using C3G in an upcoming product but its at a smaller dosage but the dosage fits for what the product is. Its an ingredient that has a wide variety of potential uses, but it is definitely expensive.
 
sns8778

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If anyone is interested in helping throw out some ideas for types of products, please subscribe to this thread and also let me know what types of products you'd like me to make a specific thread on to throw around ideas for.


The first one is for a libido product. This is one that a lot of people seemed interested in, but so far the thread hasn't gotten much participation (special thank you to those that have participated). I may should not have put it in the SNS sub-forum. Here's a link to it for anyone thats interested:

 

kl1234

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If anyone is interested in helping throw out some ideas for types of products, please subscribe to this thread and also let me know what types of products you'd like me to make a specific thread on to throw around ideas for.


The first one is for a libido product. This is one that a lot of people seemed interested in, but so far the thread hasn't gotten much participation (special thank you to those that have participated). I may should not have put it in the SNS sub-forum. Here's a link to it for anyone thats interested:

I know this has been mentioned... but any chance Icariin is on the radar?

Many health benefits(besides the obvious)
 
sns8778

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I know this has been mentioned... but any chance Icariin is on the radar?

Many health benefits(besides the obvious)
I talked about this in a thread either last week or week before last.

I would love to be able to do one but there are a few things about this ingredient that a lot of people don't know and it leads to confusion, and I fear would lead to an unrealistic expectation of a selling price. (You likely know this, my explaining it here is just for anyone reading that may not).

Icariin vs. Icariins:
These are very different things and most people don't realize it. Icariins are a family of ingredients, Icariin is a specific one. Horny Goat Weed can be standardized down for Icariin or Icariins and the price difference is huge. Icariin is the ingredient that basically provides all of the benefits. Icariins only contain a small percentage of actual Icariin. But a lot of brands use Icariins because the price difference is huge. A brand using Icariins can possibly sell a product for close to what it costs a brand that uses real Icariin to even make one.

Another common misconception is the percentage extracts for Icariin. The common extract percentages are 10%, 20%, and you'll occasionally see a legit 40%. Some end brands claim to offer a 60% but you never see it offered by raw material suppliers and most suppliers say that anything above a 40% is not Icariin, but Icariins or that it is synthetic. A few brands claimed to have a 98% a few years ago - and what they were doing was offering a synthetic 98% Icariin and claiming it was herbal derived, and that is illegal.

Back to percentages - fancy numbers don't mean anything nor do they make sense on this because:
- 1000 mg. @ 10% Icariin = 100 mg. Icariin
- 500 mg. @ 20% Icariin = 100 mg. Icariin
- 250 mg. @ 40% Icariin = 100 mg. Icariin

Keeping that in mind, now reflect on this:
- The price of a kg. of 20% Icariin is about 20% more than double the price of a kg. of 10%. So its a little more expensive per kg/ but not insanely disproportionate.
- The price of a kg. of a 40% Icariin though is almost triple the price of a kg. of 20% so it makes absolutely no sense to pay the extra when the yield works out the same.
(I hope that part makes sense to everyone).

So now, let's get into pricing of Icariins vs. Icariin:
- A kg. of 10:1 Extract is approximately 11.00
- A kg. of 10% Icariins is approximately 80.00
- A kg. of 10% Icariin is approximately 130.00 to 150.00 and the price fluctuates a lot on this ingredient.
- A kg. of 20% Icariin is approximately 280.00 to 320.00 and the price fluctuates a lot on this ingredient.

So, as you can see, if a company does one correctly, if consumers don't really know what they're looking at, it would be easy to feel like the company was over charging them when they aren't.

The only way we would do one is if we did it right and went with real Icariin.

For example, if we did a 20% Icariin @ 500 mg. per capsule, 30 caps per bottle you'd probably see it sold for between 19.99 and 24.99. And if we did a 60 capsule, you'd probably see it sold depending on the retailer for between 29.99 and 34.99.


If people would like for us to do one, I'm definitely glad to. :)
 

kl1234

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I talked about this in a thread either last week or week before last.

I would love to be able to do one but there are a few things about this ingredient that a lot of people don't know and it leads to confusion, and I fear would lead to an unrealistic expectation of a selling price. (You likely know this, my explaining it here is just for anyone reading that may not).

Icariin vs. Icariins:
These are very different things and most people don't realize it. Icariins are a family of ingredients, Icariin is a specific one. Horny Goat Weed can be standardized down for Icariin or Icariins and the price difference is huge. Icariin is the ingredient that basically provides all of the benefits. Icariins only contain a small percentage of actual Icariin. But a lot of brands use Icariins because the price difference is huge. A brand using Icariins can possibly sell a product for close to what it costs a brand that uses real Icariin to even make one.

Another common misconception is the percentage extracts for Icariin. The common extract percentages are 10%, 20%, and you'll occasionally see a legit 40%. Some end brands claim to offer a 60% but you never see it offered by raw material suppliers and most suppliers say that anything above a 40% is not Icariin, but Icariins or that it is synthetic. A few brands claimed to have a 98% a few years ago - and what they were doing was offering a synthetic 98% Icariin and claiming it was herbal derived, and that is illegal.

Back to percentages - fancy numbers don't mean anything nor do they make sense on this because:
- 1000 mg. @ 10% Icariin = 100 mg. Icariin
- 500 mg. @ 20% Icariin = 100 mg. Icariin
- 250 mg. @ 40% Icariin = 100 mg. Icariin

Keeping that in mind, now reflect on this:
- The price of a kg. of 20% Icariin is about 20% more than double the price of a kg. of 10%. So its a little more expensive per kg/ but not insanely disproportionate.
- The price of a kg. of a 40% Icariin though is almost triple the price of a kg. of 20% so it makes absolutely no sense to pay the extra when the yield works out the same.
(I hope that part makes sense to everyone).

So now, let's get into pricing of Icariins vs. Icariin:
- A kg. of 10:1 Extract is approximately 11.00
- A kg. of 10% Icariins is approximately 80.00
- A kg. of 10% Icariin is approximately 130.00 to 150.00 and the price fluctuates a lot on this ingredient.
- A kg. of 20% Icariin is approximately 280.00 to 320.00 and the price fluctuates a lot on this ingredient.

So, as you can see, if a company does one correctly, if consumers don't really know what they're looking at, it would be easy to feel like the company was over charging them when they aren't.

The only way we would do one is if we did it right and went with real Icariin.

For example, if we did a 20% Icariin @ 500 mg. per capsule, 30 caps per bottle you'd probably see it sold for between 19.99 and 24.99. And if we did a 60 capsule, you'd probably see it sold depending on the retailer for between 29.99 and 34.99.


If people would like for us to do one, I'm definitely glad to. :)
Yes, agreed that it might be a tough one to pull off to the masses.

I would be interested in this one as a staple if you are able to produce.
 
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Yes, agreed that it might be a tough one to pull off to the masses.

I would be interested in this one as a staple if you are able to produce.
Thank you. I appreciate you letting me know. I want to be able to offer everyone what they want so feedback and input is really helpful and appreciated.
 
sns8778

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I see on SNS website, one product left is Optimize T?
When will we see the daily all in one supp... which I look forward to.

PrimaVie and Blackvcube sounds good Steve. Looking forward to it, I take it will be in the 300mg-400mg range?
Maybe, we get to see Lepidamax?
;)

I’m good aren’t I? ;)
That is a very good guess, but the week 12 release won't be Optimize-T.

I'll go ahead and say that the 12 Weeks of New Releases has been a good primer to get some updated formulas out and some cool single ingredients out, but its actually been more of a teaser for things to come.

The original thought had been to extend the 12 Weeks of New Releases to 12 More Weeks of New Releases but we decided not to do that for a few reasons:
- When it comes to formulas that have multiple licensed, branded ingredients there can be unforeseen delays.
- When it comes to flavored products, it can take longer than expected to get flavors right & cause delays.
- We don't tease many new releases, but we have some really big ones that we want to tease coming up and that's harder to do when people know somethings coming on a weekly basis.
- And I think overall, people are getting so used to us coming out with new stuff that taking a small break may make it more exciting.

Anyway, the cool part is that the original 12 weeks of was really just a teaser for the actual bigger releases. They won't necessarily be every week, but right now we have over 18 products in various stages of production under SNS alone + you'll see some new ones under CEL too.

Optimize-T - ETA is within 6 weeks. It has 8 ingredients and each one is a clinically researched, licensed, branded ingredient.

Daily Ergogenic - ETA is hopefully within 6 weeks. We have 3 flavors approved and 3 more we hope to have approved next week. It will launch with 3 flavors and we can add to them based on popularity.


Black Ginger actually will not be in Optimize-T, but will be in 2 different products. I'll go ahead and say that it will be in the natural anabolic that we have coming up and also in Libido Boost XT, whose formula is almost finalized. At the % potency we're using, 100 to 200 mg. per day would be the ideal dosage imo.
 

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Black Ginger actually will not be in Optimize-T, but will be in 2 different products. I'll go ahead and say that it will be in the natural anabolic that we have coming up and also in Libido Boost XT, whose formula is almost finalized. At the % potency we're using, 100 to 200 mg. per day would be the ideal dosage imo.
Does the black ginger extract will be different in the new anabolic and the libido boost xt?
 
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Does the black ginger extract will be different in the new anabolic and the libido boost xt?
No, the extract won't be different. I'm extremely happy with the extract that we have for this and it fits well in both I think.
 
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do you have a time line for the next anabolic?
Probably 4 to 6 weeks but that's a guess. The original plan was to have it out before now; the formula has been finalized since November but we were waiting on certain raw materials. They're finally in so its a matter of production time and planning the release now.

We had really hoped to have it out before now because we have 2 more anabolic products in the works under CEL that we will need to space the releases out on.
 

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Probably 4 to 6 weeks but that's a guess. The original plan was to have it out before now; the formula has been finalized since November but we were waiting on certain raw materials. They're finally in so its a matter of production time and planning the release now.

We had really hoped to have it out before now because we have 2 more anabolic products in the works under CEL that we will need to space the releases out on.
Ok wow! got a lot on my to do list for CEL and SNS, started my Anabolic effect 3 month run, after I have 2 botlle of X gels. 3 more new anabolic. pine pollen, and your Anacyclus Pyrethrum, i just contacted my bank and waiting on a loan ;). Good job on the new release and the up and comming one!
 

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Probably 4 to 6 weeks but that's a guess. The original plan was to have it out before now; the formula has been finalized since November but we were waiting on certain raw materials. They're finally in so its a matter of production time and planning the release now.

We had really hoped to have it out before now because we have 2 more anabolic products in the works under CEL that we will need to space the releases out on.
Wow. Really excited for these, Steve.
 
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Probably 4 to 6 weeks but that's a guess. The original plan was to have it out before now; the formula has been finalized since November but we were waiting on certain raw materials. They're finally in so its a matter of production time and planning the release now.

We had really hoped to have it out before now because we have 2 more anabolic products in the works under CEL that we will need to space the releases out on.
Definitely looking forward to seeing this
 
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Ok wow! got a lot on my to do list for CEL and SNS, started my Anabolic effect 3 month run, after I have 2 botlle of X gels. 3 more new anabolic. pine pollen, and your Anacyclus Pyrethrum, i just contacted my bank and waiting on a loan ;). Good job on the new release and the up and comming one!
I hope that you'll enjoy your Anabolic Effect and X-Gels runs. By the time you finish those, we should have some cool new things out for you to try :)
 

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