Taurus Nutritions Methyl 1-P Write up and B2G1 72hr SALE!!
- Thread starter Liftergym33
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jamesm11
Well-known member
humor us with your nonsense, because I have serious doubts about this being possible at all.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
You have serious doubts about prolactin and progesterone not being the same molecule? I think that's pretty well established.
I am sorry, I reread the posts. You want to know how a progesterone skeleton doesn't bind and activate the progesterone receptor? Is that correct?
Why don't you first tell me about your doubts and I will try and answer them for you.
What basis do you doubt this is possible?
Are you familiar with steroids in general?
Do you know of things that have an androgenic skeleton yet don't bind to the AR and activate it? (hint you can fine a name in the main ingredient of our product...ok you may not get the hint...6-OXO ((androstenetrione)) is an androgen as defined by a C19 yet doesn't bind or activate the AR)...
Let's make a list of many more are like this they are androgens as defined by a C19 skeleton but don't activate the AR (single digit percentages)
7-keto-DHEA
AET
ATD
3-OHAT
4-AT (6OXO)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA
11-Hydroxy-Androstenedione
epiandrosterone
if I looked in vida, I could probably find at least 300 more...
Since we have literally hundreds if not thousands of androgens that don't activate the androgen receptor, you have serious doubts that a progestin that doesn't activate the progesterone receptor is possible? I am interested on what data or theory do you base your "serious doubts" when it's very common for steroidal modifications to change how something interacts with a receptor. Someone who doesn't understand this certainly won't benefit from a paper.
jamesm11
Well-known member
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Additionally, I'm pretty sure getting my masters in chemistry will allow me to interpret it. Plus, if it's a serious study/papers there should be abstracts that cite the findings of said tests. Anyone can understand those.
My question was regarding how you say this works, as it will have almost no interaction with the AR, ER, or PR. 6kp is almost as anabolic as progesterone and no androgenic action.
Cite studies
My question was regarding how you say this works, as it will have almost no interaction with the AR, ER, or PR. 6kp is almost as anabolic as progesterone and no androgenic action.
Cite studies
jbryand101b
Banned
Taurus Nut. said:
how about you post me the data that supports your claims about the compound, I assure you I will understand the nonsense.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
No, the nonsense was the post on the progestins vs. prolactins...someone asked about the whole thread.
Let me get the paper and you guys can pull it up. Still, I am just wondering even with a masters in chemistry, what "serious doubts" you would have considering I have just posted numerous examples of androgens that don't activate the AR. Seems like a pretty common thing for steroids to do. Varying levels of activity are pretty common among steroids. Why would you doubt progestins would be any different?
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
6-Keto-Progesterone and it's biological actions: Takeshi
That is one of them, but we have a whole list of references and there is a lot of manual comparisons in there too.
That is one of them, but we have a whole list of references and there is a lot of manual comparisons in there too.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Do you mind sharing your "doubts" since I have clearly shown that steroid skeletons with structure modifications can have all sorts of varying interactions with the receptors?
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
You may not want to hear this but I don't know that science understands how most things "work" what I do know is that according to this paper and other research, it is anabolic yet isn't estrogenic, progestational and not very androgenic in androgen sensitive tissues. Take for example a SARM it works in this manner as well and it would appear that different tissues have differing levels of AR activity.
jamesm11
Well-known member
What are you looking for specifically? It's a hormone, binds to the androgen receptor, doesn't bind to the progesterone receptor and doesn't bind to the estrogen receptor.
so it does bind to the AR or not? You have said both
First it is a progestin and has cortisol lowering properties, then it's not a progestin. make up your mind
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Again, it doesn't seem to have androgen effects in the typical androgen dependent tissue so yes and no is the answer I suppose.
Structurally it is a progestin (C21) yet it isn't "progestational" which is why I clarified. So, to answer your question it is a C21 making it a progesterone skeleton.
Structurally it is a progestin (C21) yet it isn't "progestational" which is why I clarified. So, to answer your question it is a C21 making it a progesterone skeleton.
jamesm11
Well-known member
6-KETOPROGESTERONE AND ITS BIOLOGICAL ACTION
TAKESHI NAKAO1), MICHIO MATSUBA1), KOGO HIRAGA1), MINORU INABA1), MASANAO HIRAI1), SHOICHI KANEMOTO1), TOMOJI YANAGITA1), SEIICHI SATO1), SHOICHI TAKEYAMA1), YOSHIE HISHIKAWA1), MASUMI IWASAKI1), MACHIKO KITAZUME1) and SUSUMU MORI2)
1) Department of Pharmacology, Tokyo Jikeikai School of Medicine
2) Department of Chemistry, Tokyo Metropolitan University
[Received: 1958/04/10]
[Released: 2011/01/25]
Abstract:
1) 6-Ketoprogesterone (6 kp) can not demonstrate the progestin effects by Hooker-Forbes' method.
2) 6Kp has little androgenic and estrogenic action.
3) 6Kp has myotrophic (anabolic) action almost as strong as progesterone.
4) 6Kp has the hypertrophic action on the preputial gland which is almost equivalent to that of 17 (α)-hydroxyprogesterone, 17 (α)-methyl-Δ5-androstene-3 (β)-17 (β)-diol.
5) 6Kp has depressant effect on the central nervous system, resembling progesterone in variation with sex and lack of excitation at the induction of anesthesia, displays one-sixth to one-seventh of its potency.
6) The spinal reflex is accelerated by 6kp similar to progesterone.
7) 6kp has little influence on blood pressure.
8) The steroid, which is produced in the placenta and which has myotrophic, anabolic action and hypertrophic effect on the preputial gland without androgenic action, is possibly 6kp or its related compound.
9) The vaginal smear cycle in the rat is under the control of estrogen and progesterone.
So it exhibits little PR,ER,AR effects. So cortisol control is unlikely.
It is also not very anabolic, in high doses it is dangerous, and too little of it will convert to 6-OXO to be effective
TAKESHI NAKAO1), MICHIO MATSUBA1), KOGO HIRAGA1), MINORU INABA1), MASANAO HIRAI1), SHOICHI KANEMOTO1), TOMOJI YANAGITA1), SEIICHI SATO1), SHOICHI TAKEYAMA1), YOSHIE HISHIKAWA1), MASUMI IWASAKI1), MACHIKO KITAZUME1) and SUSUMU MORI2)
1) Department of Pharmacology, Tokyo Jikeikai School of Medicine
2) Department of Chemistry, Tokyo Metropolitan University
[Received: 1958/04/10]
[Released: 2011/01/25]
Abstract:
1) 6-Ketoprogesterone (6 kp) can not demonstrate the progestin effects by Hooker-Forbes' method.
2) 6Kp has little androgenic and estrogenic action.
3) 6Kp has myotrophic (anabolic) action almost as strong as progesterone.
4) 6Kp has the hypertrophic action on the preputial gland which is almost equivalent to that of 17 (α)-hydroxyprogesterone, 17 (α)-methyl-Δ5-androstene-3 (β)-17 (β)-diol.
5) 6Kp has depressant effect on the central nervous system, resembling progesterone in variation with sex and lack of excitation at the induction of anesthesia, displays one-sixth to one-seventh of its potency.
6) The spinal reflex is accelerated by 6kp similar to progesterone.
7) 6kp has little influence on blood pressure.
8) The steroid, which is produced in the placenta and which has myotrophic, anabolic action and hypertrophic effect on the preputial gland without androgenic action, is possibly 6kp or its related compound.
9) The vaginal smear cycle in the rat is under the control of estrogen and progesterone.
So it exhibits little PR,ER,AR effects. So cortisol control is unlikely.
It is also not very anabolic, in high doses it is dangerous, and too little of it will convert to 6-OXO to be effective
jbryand101b
Banned
Dang, its going to be a long day at work.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Everything you bolded is what I said about it. Which is why it just sucks to give the information to people. You clearly have an ax to grind.
All the bolded things are good! See why we brought it out?
The cortisol is a theory based on most progestins having anti-cortisol activity, however this isn't the main focus of the product.
It's about as anabolic as 11-OXO-Testosterone, isn't an estrogenic hormone, doesn't cause androgenic effects in sensitive tissue and has no progestin activity. As a CNS relaxant it is 15% of progesterone which is very low!
Awesome stuff! Pure anabolic!
All the bolded things are good! See why we brought it out?
The cortisol is a theory based on most progestins having anti-cortisol activity, however this isn't the main focus of the product.
It's about as anabolic as 11-OXO-Testosterone, isn't an estrogenic hormone, doesn't cause androgenic effects in sensitive tissue and has no progestin activity. As a CNS relaxant it is 15% of progesterone which is very low!
Awesome stuff! Pure anabolic!
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
"Cortisol control is unlikely."
Now substantiate that statement. What did you rely on to make that assumption? Do you have papers backing up that statement. Before you do that, what does agonism of the PR, ER and AR have to do with it's anti-corticoid action?
jamesm11
Well-known member
1. Your company has a history of bad sourcing
2. Burden of proof falls on your company to provide to provide scientific literature, alpha and beta testing and purity.
3. Pure anabolic? Maybe, but that's only because it has almost no action at all. So a anabolic value of 1 would make it pure anabolic since the other values are 0
2. Burden of proof falls on your company to provide to provide scientific literature, alpha and beta testing and purity.
3. Pure anabolic? Maybe, but that's only because it has almost no action at all. So a anabolic value of 1 would make it pure anabolic since the other values are 0
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
I think the anabolic equal of 11-Keto-Testosterone is substantial, and all that means is you have to dose more frequently with higher blood plasma levels.
As for "bad sourcing" I have already pointed out that it happens to everyone seemingly. New testing protocols are certainly warranted and we have implemented them! However we have handled it far more professionally than every other company by giving a full refund (which everyone should have by now).
You don't have to buy the product, but I am very comfortable with it as a good anabolic with very limited (if any) side effects!
I provide the study backing up everything I have said and you are still pissed. lol I can't win!
As for "bad sourcing" I have already pointed out that it happens to everyone seemingly. New testing protocols are certainly warranted and we have implemented them! However we have handled it far more professionally than every other company by giving a full refund (which everyone should have by now).
You don't have to buy the product, but I am very comfortable with it as a good anabolic with very limited (if any) side effects!
I provide the study backing up everything I have said and you are still pissed. lol I can't win!
mattrag
Legend
Taurus Nut. said:
Some ppl like the mass marketing approach and big name company stuff. Check the new usplabs supp. No one is even questioning the data or the source. They don't even give that info...
The only thing usplabs is making us think is.... Why can't I buy more of thus stuff?
Sad but true reality. Good luck with your product line btw. I may run it for summer as a bridge through my ud. How's liver toxicity and cholesterol levels on this? Those are my main concerns.
jbryand101b
Banned
Agonist woulds mean it binds to those receptors and has interaction, so I think you mean antagonist cause you said it has no interaction with those receptors?
This is all hard to read from my phone.
This is all hard to read from my phone.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
the paper said its almost as anabolic as progesterone. Progesterone??? Really???
How do you go on to extrapolate saying its as anabolic as 11-ketotest?
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
So how anabolic (myotrophic) is progesterone?
well there is little published on it. this article touches on it though. Apparently its less anabolic than estradiol
[h=1]THE EFFECT OF TESTOSTERONE AND PROGESTERONE ON THE RESPONSE OF THE RETICULO-ENDOTHELIAL SYSTEM AND REPRODUCTIVE TRACT TO OESTROGEN IN THE MALE MOUSE[/h]
well there is little published on it. this article touches on it though. Apparently its less anabolic than estradiol
[h=1]THE EFFECT OF TESTOSTERONE AND PROGESTERONE ON THE RESPONSE OF THE RETICULO-ENDOTHELIAL SYSTEM AND REPRODUCTIVE TRACT TO OESTROGEN IN THE MALE MOUSE[/h]
- Invalid Link Removed,
- Invalid Link Removed and
- Invalid Link Removed
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
I wanted to stay out of this but Taurus had to go compare the compound to 11-ketotestosterone. That basically means he is trying to take money out of my pocket because I am the only one to sell that compound. So its on.
Big mistake bringing 11-ketotest up Eric
Big mistake bringing 11-ketotest up Eric
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Yeah, that is the irritating part of it. Same with so many other supplements on the market with one study as an example. Cholesterol shouldn't be a problem and there is no substantial liver toxicity with anything that isn't a 17aMethyl, so you can pretty much eliminate that as a concern from what I know.
To answer your question Pat, I would have to read the full paper along with my biochemist to comment on it. We will get it, but it's only available in hard copy. However on my research with progestins, it appears that they are quite anabolic.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
The effect of progesterone on the concentration of plasma amino acids in manInvalid Link Removed
Richard L. LandauInvalid Link Removed, Kathleen LugibihlInvalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
[TD="class: authorAddr"]Department of Medicine, The University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, USA.[/TD]
Received 13 March 1967; Available online 12 April 2004.
[h=3]Abstract[/h]Progesterone is a catabolic hormone in man. In four subjects a progesterone induced catabolic process was accompanied by a prompt decline in the plasma concentrations of a number of free amino acids. Threonine, proline, glycine, alanine, lysine, arginine, ornithine, citrulline, cystine and serine concentrations were very significantly lowered. Valine, tyrosine, and histidine were significantly lower. The concentrations of methionine, isoleucine and leucine tended to move downward. Only the phenylalanine level was clearly uninfluenced. Previous studies had shown that total urinary amino acid nitrogen was unaffected by progesterone. Results in these experiments were corroborative in that urinary glycine, alanine, methionine and arginine were not influenced by treatment with progesterone. On the basis of these results it has been suggested that the catabolic action of progesterone is secondary to an enhancement of amino acid utilization by the liver, and that the circulating concentrations of one or several amino acids exert a negative feedback action on the rate at which amino acids are liberated from peripheral tissues. On the basis of the fact that during progesterone treatment only the concentrations of glycine, threonine, cystine and serine were lower fasting and postprandially than they were fasting on control days, it has been suggested that one of these four compounds, or a combination of several of them, may be critical in regulating peripheral protein catabolism.
Richard L. LandauInvalid Link Removed, Kathleen LugibihlInvalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
[TD="class: authorAddr"]Department of Medicine, The University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, USA.[/TD]
Received 13 March 1967; Available online 12 April 2004.
[h=3]Abstract[/h]Progesterone is a catabolic hormone in man. In four subjects a progesterone induced catabolic process was accompanied by a prompt decline in the plasma concentrations of a number of free amino acids. Threonine, proline, glycine, alanine, lysine, arginine, ornithine, citrulline, cystine and serine concentrations were very significantly lowered. Valine, tyrosine, and histidine were significantly lower. The concentrations of methionine, isoleucine and leucine tended to move downward. Only the phenylalanine level was clearly uninfluenced. Previous studies had shown that total urinary amino acid nitrogen was unaffected by progesterone. Results in these experiments were corroborative in that urinary glycine, alanine, methionine and arginine were not influenced by treatment with progesterone. On the basis of these results it has been suggested that the catabolic action of progesterone is secondary to an enhancement of amino acid utilization by the liver, and that the circulating concentrations of one or several amino acids exert a negative feedback action on the rate at which amino acids are liberated from peripheral tissues. On the basis of the fact that during progesterone treatment only the concentrations of glycine, threonine, cystine and serine were lower fasting and postprandially than they were fasting on control days, it has been suggested that one of these four compounds, or a combination of several of them, may be critical in regulating peripheral protein catabolism.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Yawns...
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
You orignally quoted that paper as what you used to support your claims (post #57). Now, you are backtracking and saying you never read the full paper
The only anabolic progestins are the synthetic 17a-alkylated 19-nors that have cross reactivity with the androgen receptor. The classic C21 progestins do not have this activity.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
We aren't selling progesterone Pat. So, it's pretty hard to compare progesterone to 6-OXO-P in this capacity, but additionally posting abstracts without the full paper is meaningless anyway. The full paper needs to be investigated to really get an idea of the spirit of the paper.
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
That's your theory and I disagree. So, what else is new?
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Pat, you have been throwing out crap for 7 years now. Do you really think I care at all what you think? I don't...
I will tell you what is a bigger mistake to publicly announce that the only motivation you have for commenting on another companies product is because "it's taking money out of my pocket"
I will tell you what is a bigger mistake to publicly announce that the only motivation you have for commenting on another companies product is because "it's taking money out of my pocket"
jamesm11
Well-known member
my point is reinforced. progesterone is not very anabolic/ if even at all. also non-methylated still can cause liver damage, such as tren. and non-methyls still affect cholesterol levels.
maybe if there was alpha and beta test logs instead of throwing sh*t out with no citations other than that one, which actually proved the opposite. you don't even know the exact interactions of said products, its "i guess" "i assume" "it should"...it should be facts before you throw stuff out
maybe if there was alpha and beta test logs instead of throwing sh*t out with no citations other than that one, which actually proved the opposite. you don't even know the exact interactions of said products, its "i guess" "i assume" "it should"...it should be facts before you throw stuff out
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
There are no "facts" in science so you can throw that out. Additionally, please spare me the non-methylated discussion?
My biochemist is laughing saying "how do you deal with these people"
stopstalking
Well-known member
You guys sounds like a bunch of kids either try the product when it comes out. Knock it then if your not happy or sit back and see what people have to say about it. Damn I hate when threads turn into his bullsheet.
jamesm11
Well-known member
why is that? "Tren is a non-methylated compound, however it will negatively impact blood pressure, lipid values, cholesterol levels and will put strain on the bodies endocrine system" hmmmm I'm laughing at your bio-chemist. Cause he and you are apparently VERY uninformed
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Can you find me one report of Trenbolone causing liver toxicity compared to say superdrol or halodrol or dbol or anadrol? As in hospitalization!
All androgens raise liver enzymes but certainly C17 Methyl androgens are what MOST people are concerned about and the laymans "not liver toxic".
This is all part of the game. Rolls eyes...yes now we are debating the lay persons view that "liver toxic" means 17a Methyl steroids... all to add negativity to the thread.
8 years of this and it hasn't changed one bit...
All androgens raise liver enzymes but certainly C17 Methyl androgens are what MOST people are concerned about and the laymans "not liver toxic".
This is all part of the game. Rolls eyes...yes now we are debating the lay persons view that "liver toxic" means 17a Methyl steroids... all to add negativity to the thread.
8 years of this and it hasn't changed one bit...
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
you are something else, really
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
After 8 years of this all I can say is neither one of us has changed a bit...good or bad.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
it is certainly not my only motivation. however it is what i feel has allowed me the right to interject in another companies thread
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
It doesnt bother you when a company blatantly lies to get you to buy product? And do you think its childish for me to protect my companies best interest when it is threatened?
jamesm11
Well-known member
First, I'm talking about tren extreme estra 4,9 dione based, not trenbolone. but good thing you're in the loop on orals that have been around for years.
As in hospitalization? There are roughly 50 hospitalizations nationwide each year from anabolic usage. For someone asking for reports you have only given 1 citation, and it contradicted you
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Yeah, but it really doesn't...you should have taken econ and marketing in college. The more people selling hormonal products raises awareness and demand in the marketplace, thus creating more business for all parties.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
stay on topic, this has nothing to do with liver toxicity or methyls versus non-methyls
jamesm11
Well-known member
not to go off track, but really? When there is an increase in the number of suppliers for said product there is greater competition. Greater competition leads to lower prices in order to gain market share over the competition. Lower prices lead to lower net profit, which reduces capital. Lower capital leads to less emphasis on R&D
so everything you said was wrong. but back on topic...
jamesm11
Well-known member
he said that there is no cholesterol impact or liver impact by this product.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
Taurus Nut.
Board Sponsor
Sure but that is offset by increased market demand. Typically in these scenarios you get an ebb and flow but what I have found is that typically the more companies selling a product the better the overall market for each individual company.
Let's look at 1,3-Dimethyl. Pat had an exclusive on it for quite a while, nearly 1-2 years? Yet with the explosion of 1,3 Dimethyl produts the demand for it has gone way past what Pat was selling when he had AMP and I would wager that if he had a 1,3 product he would actually be selling more of it.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
i try to respect other companies threads even when i really wanna interject because of some BS i disagree with. But when a direct comparison to a product of mine is made, and made based on completely false information with the purpose to attract customers then i have a responsibility and a right to address the issue